Alderant

The confusion lies in how you are defining what's going on. First, there is no textual evidence to support the idea that she is splitting off personalities following the trauma of her mother from the time of the incident, up to the time that she kills her father. Yes, she is still suppressing memories and blanking out as a coping mechanism--however, "donning a mask" does not entail creating an entirely separate identity. Much like actors "take a role" during a stage production, Shallan is adopting a habit of living in order to survive in her father's household. I would argue that the "subversive sister", as you put it, is more akin to the true Shallan (who she would be/have been without the trauma) rather than a mask donned around her brothers. Second, while I agree that she is donning masks, I do not agree in the manner that you are defining this. Part of this is the semantics you use--"personality" and "persona" mean two wholly different things. If you read through my other posts, you'll notice I explicitly use the word persona in describing what Shallan is doing and the roles she is assuming. A persona is a mask. A personality, however, could be considered a separate identity, different from the "host" personality as is common with DID. Furthermore, under this definition of using personas versus personalities, I can state that she can have both one personality since her mother's death, and still have her using masks since childhood, because, while the masks have different characteristics and roles they are meant to fulfill, underneath the mask they are still the same personality, the same person, with all of her flaws and shortcomings. With regards to Veil, Veil was created to be a disguise, a mask, to use during her infiltration of the Ghostbloods. However, if Veil acted exactly as Shallan in disguise, she might as well go as Shallan, because the connection would have been made instantly. This is even addressed in WoR, when Shallan--as Veil--slips up and reveals her memory and drawing capabilities to the Mraize. A good disguise, therefore, is one that is fully fleshed out and can be adopted at a moment's notice. How best to disguise that Veil isn't Shallan? Make her different, not just in physical feature, but in personality (as in how she acts), voice, and every other noticeable way. In Oathbringer, however, Shallan began to go down a very bad path of using her personas to deal with her own personal issues. She began slicing off problems that she didn't want to deal with as "Shallan", and segregated those problems into the personas. Combine these efforts with the augmentation provided by the magic system, and Shallan suffers an identity crisis. The underlying problem, however, remains the same. Veil, Radiant, and "Shallan" are still just Shallan with a mask on. They're not separate identities with their own existence--they're figmentations born of Shallan's attempts to avoid her own mental problems, augmented by Shallan's own mental gymnastic proficiency and the magic system.

I've always pronounced it "ray shuh FEER"

Okay, after re-reading your post it makes a lot more sense. I see where you're coming from and I think, in large part, we're in agreement. Just so I make sure I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying that the foundational lie is that her ends were noble and selfless, correct? I'm not sure that I agree that Shallan is going to fall into the same position she took up in Jah Keved. There are a lot more people and events that are tugging at Shallan now then there were before, when she was largely just a young daughter of a lesser-known noble family. That said, I do feel that a reckoning is in store for what is going on--I pointed out earlier that it's likely that her brothers are going to point out inconsistencies in who she pretends to be versus the girl they knew for so long. Plus...I tread hesitantly here, as it's largely speculative, but we don't know how much the Ghostbloods have interacted with her brothers. We don't know if they were told anything about what Shallan's been up to. If they were, then maybe there will be some conflict, but if not, I doubt that there going to be reason for tension between Davar and Kholin, especially with Jasnah as Queen, who was largely aware of the situation with Shallan's family. Yes, she did act differently around her brothers, but rather she was a little more herself around them than that she put on a mask for them. I doubt they'll notice that "she's doing it again" and come to the conclusion it means nothing good--her mask for her father was a matter of survival, as was her brothers' behavior around their father. Lin Davar was a man with a quick and violent temper. Again, though, chances are high that any character inconsistencies will be pointed out by her brothers. Um...no. What we see after she killed her mother is a person in shock. It's not that her personalities are fractured and responding to her circumstances (she only has one personality), but rather that her mind has been so traumatized that it's shut down. This happens a lot to soldiers. Again...Veil == Shallan. Veil is not a separate identity trapped in Shallan's body. Veil is Shallan, with all of Shallan's memories, so it was more of a slip on Shallan's part--she allowed a little bit more of herself to bleed into her Veil persona, rather than keeping it separate. This is part of the reason Veil is more like the true Shallan at the end of OB than the "Shallan" persona. Also, to head off argument here, I'm pretty sure there is even a WOB that states that Veil, Shallan, and Radiant would appear in the cognitive realm as one person, not three. I will find it and post it here. EDIT: Here it is! That said, you're correct that she's been using masks since her childhood, though I'd disagree in that I think cheerful, scholarly Shallan of WoR and WoK was actually more true to herself than what we saw at the end of Oathbringer. That Shallan was on the path to healing. This Shallan is on a path to self-destruction. And you are also correct that the "real" Shallan is who confronted the Unmade--or rather, the frightened, broken girl is part of who Shallan really is. It's the part that she shuns, that she doesn't want to be, the part that she fears if others see, they'll leave.

True. She did accept the first three fairly easily. And that's just another on a laundry list of dissimilarities between Shallan and Adolin. As I said before, a relationship that is not built on trust is doomed to fail. Despite his "awesomeness" and "good-guyness" Shallan just does not trust Adolin, and that is a huge problem. @ale I will get to your comments later tonight.

Hm. I'm trying really hard to understand your point in the first paragraph, but my mind's having difficulty. What are you meaning by "foundational lie"? Agreed on the latter point, however. She could have told him at any point--there were numerous opportunities. Be careful calling Adolin a foil, though. You'll anger a lot of people saying that he's less significant Also, I feel that her brothers are probably not going to bring up the fact that Shallan killed their father except perhaps with her alone. That's not the kind of secret you just bring up in high society, and they don't know the truth about ninja'd again. @SLNC brings up a valid point, however; Shallan hasn't told her brothers about the truth surrounding her mother's death. Presumably, with her arc in OB, she's going to try to hide that fact desperately from them since she doesn't want to face that pain.

See this is the thing that doesn't make sense to me. Adolin keeps saying he wants Shallan to be herself, to be the "real" Shallan, yet he has no idea who that is. He has fallen in love with a mask that has been in place since the moment he first saw her. In fact, between the time they meet and the time they marry, we've seen Shallan erect a lot of walls between her real self and Adolin. This makes the "hanging out and drinking with Veil" thing really weird, because by the end of Oathbringer, Veil is closer to the real Shallan than the persona he married is, and Adolin can't feel "romantic" around Veil.

Ah, I should amend my statement. I was trying to make a quick edit because people replied just as I hit the "submit reply" button. You're really close on this. The family stuff was actually the lower-level driving factors for her plot in WoK, however, even by WoR her thoughts considering her family were practically non-existent until after Mraise entered the picture. She was focused on Jasnah's work. Now, the argument could be made that Shallan's flashback scenes were about her family, but (and I'll go into this more in my analysis post that I keep saying is going to be done), in reality, Shallan's exploits to heal her family were not about her family's well-being, though that's what she's tricked herself into believing. In reality, they were an attempt to restore normalcy, for her own sake. She screwed it up by killing her mother. She was the reason her father went off the deep end. She was the reason Nan Balat was broken, the reason Asha Jushu was the way he was, etc. That's the real subtext of WoR, that everything was her fault, and even more so in WoK because, again, she killed her father and put her family into its situation. It also brings statements like "It helps when you're crazy" a little more into focus, though that's another point entirely. Hey, don't stress it. Never feel that you can't say something--as has been pointed out, I didn't read the whole thing, and you had two people comment on it.

I'll be honest, if Shalladin isn't happening, I'm 100% on board with Kaladin and Jasnah, I think they would actually make a very interesting pair, and be very entertaining to read. I don't buy the whole "theres just too big of an age gap" "Jasnah doesnt need a romance", those just don't hold any water for me. They had one significant interaction in OB and I found it highly entertaining. Theres definitely more there to be explored between these two if Brandon wants to do that. (Plus, it would be mildy satisfying and hilarious for Kaladin and Jasnah to get together, and then get to see Shallans reaction.) I don't know how I missed @ale's post here, but this is something I've been on for a while. I think, considering Jasnah's wit and Kal's maturity, that would be a very interesting pairing. I...actually shipped them over Kaladin and Shallan, after discovering Jasnah was alive at the end of WoR, tbh. My interest in Shalladin was purely because I feel that Kaladin is better for her than Adolin. I guess I just am incapable at taking Shallan at face-value. Maybe that's because I'm too much in her head or something. :/ I secretly think it's written to be intentionally dissatisfying... Thanks!

I had not read it before but I have read it now, lol. (I skipped the first 82 pages of the discussion, just read the summary.) That's a good one. Thanks for that. @DeployParachute, you get a cookie. I like how well-thought out your replies are. Shallan's character drama is less about family than it is about herself. Considering that you said you "made your way to the end of this thread," I'm assuming you read my exceptionally long rant on Page 89? If not, I'll quote a small part of it here: I doubt this will happen, for reasons I've explained below and elsewhere. Ah see, I liked your post up until here. We didn't really see Veil interact with Kaladin, but we know from ample text that the Veil persona held her attraction to Kaladin. We do, however, see the "Shallan" persona acting with quite a lot of snark and no kindness on several occasions. Hope you don't mind, but I bolded the part that I thought was significant. A relationship built without trust is like a house built without a foundation. No matter how nice Adolin is, no matter how much he likes her, if Shallan isn't going to trust him the relationship is ultimately doomed to fail, and unless Shallan has some major self-awareness revelations in the time gap (which would undermine her character arc), I don't think anything is going to be "worked out" by the next book. As to your second paragraph...I agree and disagree. I don't think the ship has sailed. He's accepted it in his head, but I don't think he's really accepted it in his heart. He just received too many knockdowns in OB to feel that his interest was justified. And I would disagree that he isn't extremely interested in romance--I think he's just too self-deprecating to feel he deserves it. His final thoughts are kind of a dark reflection of Shallan's final thoughts in the mirror. Honestly, I think your last sentence is accurate though. I would be shocked to see adultery in the main characters from Brandon. Personally, I think Adolin is set up for a fall--regardless of the potential for Kaladin and Shallan in the future. (My thoughts on Shalladin have nothing to do with my thoughts regarding Adolin.) @DeployParachute has a great post that spells this out, if you haven't read it. @SLNC posted it as a reply to mine on 89.

Nice post, well put and focused. But you left out one--by this same logic, Dalinar and Navani should never have been romantic in WoK and WoR. I will make one small correction though, that has to do with her character: she's not exactly comfortable with Kaladin--that implies a certain familiarity that I think is absent. In fact, she's downright judgemental of him--far more so than of Adolin and coming closer to her verbal assault on one of the brightladies in Oathbringer, but she is far more herself around him, which is, I think, the same point you were trying to make. But that might be semantics. Personally, I've always found the "She reminds me of Tien" argument to be the among the weakest of the challenging arguments for saying that Kaladin isn't interested in Shallan. I don't know about many others, but I was always a very reserved, very private person, emotionally. I could go at length into how the dialogue conveys that Kaladin is very much into Shallan, just repressing those feelings for the sake of maintaining the peace. But that was something I did a lot in high school, so maybe that's why I read it that way.

I actually loved this whole paragraph, but I didn't want to quote it in its entirety for brevity's sake. I think you made a good point here (and it is one which I targeted in my...rather lengthy post). Brandon isn't a romance author, but I feel that romances are something he does exceptionally well when you compare him to the vast majority of fantasy authors out there, most of which take the angle of "Hey, these two are together. They like each other--here's the obligatory scene where they hook up to show you that they are an item." Brandon's writing is not like that. Like many of his other plotting and character arcs, he builds toward something kind of like a rolling stone. (Wax/Steris, the Parshendi going into stormform, the revelation at the end of WoA) In my experience, while his romances may seem clunky sometimes (especially compared to the more...intricate...plots of romance novels), I have found them to be quite satisfying and definable, in a manner that leaves very little doubt about whether or not a couple has been established. The fact that there is so much arguing even still, months after OB's release, and that almost every reader I've seen has been dissatisfied with the romantic arc between Adolin and Shallan, tells me that it's not decisive at all, and I don't think Brandon meant it to be. Maybe my opinion will change with a second read-through, but the more I think about it, the more I think we're meant to be dissatisfied about it. As you said, Brandon loves to foreshadow. Why would he drop all of these subtle similarities and hints between Kal and Shallan, if her marriage to Adolin is the be-all end-all? To further that point, as someone who appreciates a good romantic plot (but doesn't read romance novels), I have been, since early in their relationship in Words of Radiance, extremely dissatisfied with how Adolin and Shallan's relationship has been portrayed. It is not romantic. It's not even really cute. I feel that Adolin really does like Shallan, but I've never seen anything in the literature that tells me that this couple is in love. I have, however, seen a lot in the literature that tells me that this couple is trying to act like they're in love, and there's a big difference between those two. Again, great paragraph. It's really because people like Adolin--I mean, really, if Adolin were not in the picture, if he never existed, would people be so upset about Kaladin and Shallan getting together? I doubt it. These same people that complain about "main characters just dither about their relationship the whole time" overlook Elend/Vin and Raodan/Sarene. Both of these relationships had defining viewpoint characters that were in love with each other, yet they never got in the way of the plot, so I don't understand why having Kaladin and Shallan in a relationship is a problem, when those two were not. Below here has nothing to do with anything I have previously commented on. These are my own thoughts. I heard something interesting the other day with regards to this triangle that I didn't understand. People like to tout on here that Adolin is just this perfect guy for Shallan, that he just gets her and he understands her and that he can help her, and that Kaladin is so bad for her and is encouraging her bad habits and fracturing mental state. Based on what I've read in Oathbringer (and to a lesser extent, Words of Radiance), how is that conclusion being drawn? Because what I read in Oathbringer was Adolin actually furthering the problems of Shallan's mental state, not helping them. Kaladin aside, who I think was largely unavailable emotionally to be able to help Shallan, how is Adolin's behavior to Shallan actually beneficial to her mental state, when he is actually encouraging the problem, as Kaladin has been accused of doing?

Again...as has been said, there is an entire 89 page thread dedicated to to this topic. A lot of people get riled over seeing the shipping conversations continuaply popping up on the forum, and I and several others have worked to defend the people who want to talk about it across the forum by pointing to that thread, so please go over to that thread to further your discussion @Hsien99. You will find many people have already debated this topic quite profoundly and you can add your thoughts over there.

Ati was present at the Shattering, along with the other 15 shardholders, and took up the Ruin Shard as part of that process, presumably. He didn't have to connect to Ruin. Kelsier on the other hand, suffered from two problems: one, he was dead, and therefore he was only in the Cognitive Realm (a Shard exists on all three realms at once, a connection is hard to form when you only connect to one aspect), and two, he was more Connected to Ruin than Preservation. Those two were opposites, and something so strongly Connected to Ruin could not be Preservation. He overcame that by shattering the jar of liquid, which allowed him to forcibly Connect to Preservation, but the link was tenuous at best, hence his difficulty in wielding Preservation.

No, actually I think you're right. One of the main things Kaladin has actually seen Shallan draw is the map of the Shattered Plains, when they were trapped down in the chasm. Until that point, he'd never really had a use for maps, but now he thinks they're valuable. I think that's probably a subliminal connection on Kaladin's part. Though I imagine Kaladin's reaction to those maps would probably be similar to Dalinar's.

Are you referring to Amaram? Shallan? Backpack from Dora the Explorer? I'm curious where you're going with this, but I'm clearly not making the leap you just made.

Because people still like talking about it? At least we're trying to keep it to one thread, and redirecting people here when they bring it up elsewhere, instead of blowing up every other thread with this topic. Also, this isn't just a discussion about the love triangle. This is a Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin discussion. We talk about all three characters in alternating patterns, though Shallan specifically is a large part of the discussion. No one's forcing you to read it though, so if you don't want to read it, don't. Comments like this, when people are clearly still discussing and enjoying themselves, and when we're actually trying to keep it contained, are kind of ascerbic and abrasive. Put your discontent in the "What do you think has been discussed to death" thread. That said, if you have an actual thought about the discussion, I'm all ears!

Um...I'm going to say that I largely agree the other two comments here. I just finished the original Mistborn trilogy again, and Vin =/= Shallan. Not at all. Not even in the slightest. Not even in the--okay, well, they're both short. And your comment about "grappling with possible feelings for a brooding but witty lowborn who also has innate powers and is really good with them, whose name starts with K" is directly refuted by Vin in Mistborn: The Final Empire. Vin thought of Kelsier as a father figure. I know it was a really popular idea with my teenage sister that those two end up together, but...ew. Also, I wouldn't describe Kelsier as brooding. I think that moniker actually fits Elend, more than it fits Kelsier. Especially in HoA. And the nobleborn never said he would step aside for the lowborn in Mistborn. By the time Elend even intimated such a sentiment, Kel was dead for a year, and Vin immediately refuted him. If you want to draw these kinds of similarities, then let's also, for that matter, include...um...most main characters with a tragic backstory and a romantic interest? I mean...you're just outlining standard plot devices. The characters themselves, the plots, and even the arcs of the novels is completely different. I don't mean to be rude--if this was a genuine theory than I applaud you for trying to get an idea out, but perhaps you could be more specific and draw more exacting parallels, go into a little bit more analysis?

@Dreamstorm Excellent points! I missed that similarity entirely! That is a well earned cookie, especially the analysis at the end. Edit: And I realized I didn't say this, but thank you. I put a lot of thought into my posts. Hahaha! You get a cookie too! That one made me laugh! Edit: And for the record, yes, I'm considering an e-book a hard copy. I have only ever read these books on audio--excepting the novellas (which I've both read and listened to) and White Sand comics, of course.

Thanks! A lot of thought has been going into this. When I finally get to that in-depth character analysis, though, I'll probably just post that I'm doing it and link an external document, haha. I can get behind that definition. ...I've never actually read Prime, but if that's true than my points about Adolin not being important to the author are even more valid, haha. Thanks for bringing that to my attention! I don't mind taboo. It's a great planet. No, wait, that's Naboo...Anyway, I really do like to consider where the plot is going. Drafting an epic fantasy plot really makes you look at how other authors have crafted their stories and what is important versus what is not... I mean, I doubt my story will ever go anywhere important (it's something creatively cathartic for me), but it's given me a new, objective insight into these characters and why they're portrayed a certain way within the roles they're meant to fill. And I really do feel that Adolin's death is an important idea to consider, especially given that his death will affect several main characters...Of course, I also theorize that the Stormlight Archive is going to end in disaster to set up the final arc in the Cosmere as a whole, so take that as you will. And thanks for the DeployParachute quote. I think I might have glanced at his post, but it's thorough and goes pretty well with what's been in my head.

I don't understand why people give Kelsier Duralamin. Pre-death Kelsier didn't know about duralamin, so it wouldn't have been an option. And while you are correct about it's potential, Kelsier never really thought of the metals as useful in combat, which is the angle I was approaching from. Good reply though. Have a cookie.

Thank you for the clarification. I've never actually read the hard copies, haha, but you are correct. I was referring to Lin Davar. Edit: Corrected original post with the correct spelling.

Dear arms: I'm glad that we three can spend this year together, gon! I will make sure there is a lady for each of you! --The Lopen.

^^^ This. I have gone on several very long diatribes about Shallan's mental health since the prerelease of Oathbringer. @RShara@Calderis I don't have WoR in front of me, but wasn't her fourth Truth "I just want my family"?

Sorry about that, haha. I’m kind of known for being longwinded. Good points. I think you’re onto something.

As much as I like both characters, I think the WoB about Vin vs. Kal says it all. On a battlefield Kal would beat Kel hands down. Hes just got more to go on there, and remember that Kal is a trained soldier, while Kel is a self-taught thief. In the city, Kal would be at more of a disadvantage and Kel would win because of the terrain/hiding places and the fact that Kal glows. With regards to atium...Kal has the battle reflexes to learn that Kel is able to somehow predict his actions and could shoot into the air and simply stay out of Kelsier’s range until the atium burns away. Atium has its flaws too, and Syl can change into a different shape at will. Mistborn range has no effect on the ability to fight Kal, since hes a windrunner and can draw all projectiles to a given spot, and the lighter they are the easier they are pull to that spot. Pewter < stormlight. Pewter augments the body’s natural abilities, but stormlight healing is more like feruchemical gold than pewter, so pewter is actually at a disadvantage here, though both burn quickly. Tin is effectively negated by Syl and stormlight. Brass and Zinc wouldnt really have a place in the fight, neither would bronze and copper. So like I said, I think it comes down to what scenario, when.