Alderant

I have to say, I entered this thread with an internal groan and laughed out loud when I read the ensuing first post. You got me--you get an upvote. That said, I'm with ya on the Kaladin/Shallan stuff, but honestly these would probably be rated R for violence at worst, not sex lol. Mormons are generally prudish about sex.

I think I know what you mean. Thanks! I work hard on my wallposts. Truer words have never been spoken.

I think that's fair to say, though the better answer would be why you don't think it's likely. You're not kicking over my sandcastle though, because while I don't know that it's going to happen, I think the seeds of it are there. It largely depends on how Brandon writes the narrative. I believe they were paired in the original (or at least that's what I was told), which is an interesting thing to consider in addition to the wallpost I made.

I agree with pretty much most of this, with regards to Kaladin. I left out a lot of other information, but Kaladin being lighteyes is an important part of the situation as well. I don't know that Brandon is trying to keep Jasnah secret as much as he's trying to keep what Jasnah knows secret. He's gradually giving us more information about her and what she knows, which seems to largely pertain to the Knights Radiant and the Desolations. As for Jasnah, it seems that she's coming more to the fore narratively & politically, so we'll get to the see a lot more of and about her in 4 & 5. There are many ways in which a Kaladin / Jasnah relationship could work, while still keeping Jasnah fairly removed--such as most of the "relationship" scenes coming from Kaladin's perspective (a la Shallan and Adolin), and the point I mentioned before on how their social standings could likely work, with him largely taking on her bodyguard detail. I think part of the problem with a "political marriage" is that it seems to undercut Jasnah's authority, and I don't think that's a necessary feature. That said, I don't think a relationship is as out of the question as has been said elsewhere.

Like I said, allowed to disagree. I don't see Brandon being coy as a sign it's Jasnah, per se. His wording is too vague, he says "seen people (plural) with Shardplate multiple times in the books. Or at least, the soon aftermath of someone." This is classic misdirection. The question was about Jasnah, so the implication is that seeing Jasnah that way is Jasnah soon after dismissing, but he doesn't even say soon aftermath of "dismissing", just the aftermath of someone with Shardplate. That's not a clear indication to me at all. EDIT: For all we know, we could have seen someone who shouldn't have Shardplate use it or arrive after using it and we only saw the effects of the use of Shardplate. The WoB is just way too vague, there's too many ways to interpret it.

Not to be a party pooper, but The three Realms were one here, and we know Jasnah was doing a crap ton of soulcasting. We know, from a released Jasnah scene and the trip through Shadesmar, that cognitive essences can be "bound" into approximations of real world shapes when soulcasting occurs in the cognitive realm. I never assumed this scene to be Jasnah dismissing her Shardplate--I assumed it to be the fading of Jasnah's use of soulcasting on the fusion of the three realms. Remember, we haven't seen what the Cosmere would look like with the three realms fused as one before. The Battle of Thaylen City is weird, there's a lot of weird things happening there, so any theory involving the Battle of Thaylen City as a proof should be taken with a spoon of salt until we see evidence of those occurrences beyond OB. As always, however, you're more than allowed to disagree--all we really have at this point are theories, after all. I just thought I'd add my two cents to the discussion.

WARNING! INCOMING ALDERANT WALLPOST! I've made it no secret that I'm totally into the idea of Jasnah and Kaladin. I have been casually since Way of Kings, and Oathbringer only cemented the idea in my head as not only viable, but an excellent opportunity for growth on both characters' parts. Before I get into why, I'm putting a segment in here as to what I look at when I make these kinds of judgments. On analysis: Moving on now to Kaladin and Jasnah. First, I'll look at each character individually, then move on to how they could work and grow together. Kaladin: Jasnah: Kaladin & Jasnah: And that's my 2 cents regarding this. Hope you enjoyed the post! Footnotes: N1.) Note: This is a callback to his earlier assertion in Way of Kings that no matter what happened to those around him, he always survived--a fact that made him severely depressed and melancholic. N2.) Again, this is a callback to Words of Radiance, when Kaladin said that Shallan and Adolin "fit." And both of these declarations are accompanying a time when Kaladin is at a low. First after the chasms, when Kaladin thought he'd killed Syl, then here, when Kaladin is beaten down by repeated failures--including his failure to save Amaram from himself, and Elhokar in Kholinar. N3.) Kaladin is subtly calling her out. An "eel" is someone who fights dirty, like Sadeas. N4.) Note the retraction and change of language here. This isn't "Oh, I'm going to rip this guy apart," this is "Oh, okay. This guy isn't going to simply roll over when I get stern." As most people she interacts with do. N5.) Jasnah does not ask. Jasnah demands, and others obey. In this paragraph, she asks Kaladin if he could train his squires. And sidenote for the shipper within: Jasnah compares the Windrunners to skyeels, and says she'd happily cuddle a skyeel. The fact that this comes immediately after Kaladin's confrontation and opposition, which should have upset her and made for a hostile encounter, could be significant.

Please just edit your previous post instead of double-posting. Thanks I don't think we have the same understanding, and I'm not sure how to react to this because there is so much in this post that is just...so, so wrong. I would like to inform you that my statements are very well grounded in facts. In fact (ha, pun), I use the books as a primary source for everything I say, and usually back up my comments with ample sourced evidence. I didn't this time for the sake of brevity since I've said these same points over and over... Cliff notes: No, you're not alone. I actually ship them quite a bit.

Maybe amend your comment to carry your meaning further. As it currently reads, you state you prefer Adolin because he is stable (and the given comparisons are to characters that have severe mental disorders), and you go on to state that "we have enough dramaqueens tbh" in quick succession. Contextually, the implication--even if unintended--is that you think the characters with mental disorders are dramaqueens and need to just "get over" their problems--and as someone with a mental disorder, I can tell you I read it the same way as @SLNC. A few notes before I go silent once more: You picked some of the worst examples to further your point toward the end. Wayne, Wax, and Sazed all have HUGE character growth arcs. Even smaller characters in these respective series--Steris & Breeze, for example--have more visible growth over three books than Adolin has actually shown. Further, Sarene and Vasher are from standalone books--Vasher wasn't even the main character, and these two are from the earliest of Brandon's published books. And the two main characters of that book (Warbreaker) did show enormous growth within the bounds of that singular volume. No, I want characters to be believable and relatable. What I find funny is how much projection is placed on Adolin, and how much his narrative is retroactively rewritten with each book. He isn't even stable--his murder of Sadeas in a fit of anger is clear indication of that. He also is highly jealous, and demonstrates severe avoidance behavior with regards to responsibility. I've written an entire wallpost on the subject. I respectfully disagree. Adolin doesn't provide "emotional grounding," he provides a yes-man to Shallan's antics, someone who will tell her what she wants to hear instead of what she needs to hear. He actually exacerbates her mental problems, fragments her mental state further by his "acceptance" of "who" she is. He doesn't know who she is--she isn't even sure who she is--and therefore he's not qualified to tell her so. To say he knows her on the depth required is not only a ludicrous notion, but it's pathologically misogynistic. He's not good for her in the slightest. And to be clear, what Shallan needs isn't "emotional grounding," it's facing her problems and accepting that she is who she is--trauma, flaws, and all. And Adolin can't give her that because he doesn't know what she hasn't told him--which is a lot.

It would be very, very difficult, if not impossible, since a Shardblade is essentially a physical manifestation of investiture, and investiture repels investiture. A normal Coinshot can't even affect a feruchemical bracelet, and that's just minorly invested metal. A Shardblade would be an entirely different order of magnitude. You mean Mistborn vs Radiant. Brandon has said that Vin and Kaladin would be roughly equal, with Kaladin winning in more open spaces and battlefields, while Vin would excel in the cities and urban environments. A Fullborn would be a darn near impossible fight, since they have access to not just a full Allomantic set, but also a full Ferchemical set and thus a full sixteen of Compounding. We're effectively talking Lord Ruler here--and the only reason Vin beat him is because she had a Shard on her side, which effectively trumps Fullborn status.

Inquisitors do not fly. They push and pull, and their ability to do so would rely on metal anchors, which could be easily scattered by an intelligent, nigh-sentient adult chasmfiend. I would give this fight to the chasmfiend a majority of the time. Atium is useless if you can't penetrate its armor, all you can do is dodge. Healing only takes you so far until reserves run out. However, the combination of feruchemy & allomancy (with regards to augmenting strength reserves with pewter, for example) would make it a more reasonable fight. Inquisitors would still generally lose fighting in the environments chasmfiends inhabit, though they'd fare better in the chasms than on the plateaus, I think.

Dude, you are the most patient person ever. I love you. Plans are for 7 & 8 to be up during the holiday. Back is finally better, so I should be getting back into the swing of my life.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/370/#e11875 In this WoB, the "inaudible" is core truth of her identity. The line reads ... Not that I agree with this, mind, but I thought some clarification might help.

I have three: Elhokar, Way of Kings: Repeat: Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination Kaladin, Words of Radiance: Love is the balm that heals wounds. Don't let go. Shallan, Oathbringer: It doesn't matter what's in the past. Focus on now.

TL;DR Yes. Hopefully soon. Yes. Provided my rib goes the rest of the way back into place when I visit the chiropractor today, should be later this week. Had plans to do this last week, but this rib has put pretty much all of my personal projects on hiatus and spend my nights laying in bed playing Skyrim (I'm not being hyperbolic, literally laying in my bed and playing the one game I have on 360 is the only thing I've had the stamina to do after work). I have to sit down and review my notes from the first two chapters and resettle my mind on the topic. It's been on hiatus due to life situations and difficulty of note-taking causing a serious lack of motivation (It took me about four hours to go through one chapter, much less make the coherent analysis), and the fact I was purely on audiobook wasn't helping because I'd have to listen, type, rewind, type, rewind, type, rewind until I got the quotes I wanted or could verify I'd heard the part correctly. Going forward, I intend to sit down with the physical book so that process is significantly easier. Hopefully, if all goes well, I should have the next two Shallan chapters up around the same time since they occur back-to-back.

I think one thing that is forgotten about Dalinar and Evi, vs Navani's recollection, is that Alethi society is socially reserved. Evi could easily have acted like everything was okay in public, especially since most of the abuse we see from Dalinar's perspective is in a private setting. We also know that Dalinar was frequently at war, away from his brother (and therefore Navani), as well as the fact that we know that Evi painted Dalinar in a much nobler light than he really was to even his sons--and if she did that there, it's not a stretch to say she kept their marital problems pretty close to the vest. Add the rose colored lenses of the past, and yeah, not a discrepancy at all. (Not a wallpost. Just my 2 cents)

Mmm. Let me clarify. I didn't mean they can't talk out their problems, that they're incapable of doing so, but rather that only talking about their problems will not fix the underlying issues. It'd be like airing your laundry in a rainstorm. And your point about the master/yes-ma'am response to those revelations is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about--talking about all her problems (and his), only to have her steam-roll any of his objections (if he dares voice any), is precisely why talking is not the solution to their issues. And the longer she takes to tell him the truth, the longer she takes to accept those things about her, the worse the eventual fight will be. This is why I said I think it's a more compelling narrative to have had them rush into the marriage and then have to make it work, than to just wipe away or make their marriage problems a non-issue. <Personal speculation below> And I do see her potentially trying to pull a card like you mention, but I think it would probably be more along the lines of "You love me, I need you, here let me sex you up to make you forget this conversation and all your concerns." Which would present its own line of problems.

I love the title of this thread: “SKA – is it Resolved?” Short answer? Yes! All you Shadolin shippers can be happy. You got your ending. Sadly, Shalladin shippers, what you got was less than…adequate. Long answer? Yes, for now. And I’ll explain why. Be forewarned, I have been gone a long time, and a lot of contextual updates have occurred, so this post will have some length to it. Long quotes are in spoiler tags, and the post is split into two segments. (It’s an Alderant post, did you really expect anything different?) To begin with, I would like to reassert that, from the day I finished OB, I claimed that I was glad Kaladin and Shallan were not in a relationship at the end of OB. Kaladin was in no mental place for a relationship—he took too many knocks, fell too hard, for a romantic relationship with Shallan to be at all viable. Kaladin will not be part of this discussion. He may be mentioned in direct association of an aspect, but this discussion is purely about the viability of Adolin and Shallan as a married couple. Further, there are a couple of points I want to clarify before I get into the meat of my post: I like that you said that Shallan’s personas and her struggle to control them will present problems. I agree with that completely, and your comment here about them being part of her is spot on. It is a matter of great speculation in other circles whether or not “Shallan”’s eyes will wander. I for one, have said from fairly early on that I would like to see Brandon showcase her working through her marriage problems, rather than writing those problems away or making them a non-issue. I agree that this provides a route for a more compelling narrative than simply “Will they, won’t they” or romantic dithering between Adolin and Kaladin. First, I would like to point out that your second paragraph makes very little sense. However, if I understand you correctly, your point is that Shallan was a pivoting point in Adolin’s story and the sole reason he changed from serial dating to monogamy, and therefore all potential blame for infidelity must come from Shallan. Not only is this a logical fallacy, but it’s not even true—Adolin stopped seeing other women because Shallan was a pre-arranged deal that required very little effort, and in large part because Danlan spread some pretty harsh tales about him to the camp’s young women—as is indicated by these quotes from Words of Radiance: This is further evidenced by the fact that his statements regarding Danlan strongly implicate that she sabotaged his chances at any of the camp’s other women (many of whom he’d already offended). Second, I’m not sure where you are drawing this claim from. We have evidence of at least two explicitly dysfunctional marriages by OB: Dalinar & Evi, and Navani & Gavilar. To recap, one of Navani’s assertions to Dalinar in Way of Kings is that Gavilar wasn’t the man everyone thought him to be, and implies that, though she may have loved him, their marriage was not one of fully functional bliss: Further, we learn through OB’s flashbacks that Dalinar & Evi were quite unhappy and constantly fighting and arguing with each other, frequently ending with Dalinar drinking or leaving to go fight, and Evi in tears. Evi was a wonderful woman, much better than Dalinar deserved, but their marriage was not functional. Calderis, I’m not even sure where to begin with your comment here. This is…utterly inaccurate. That might be a small influence, but let us keep in mind that the scene in question is from Shallan’s perspective, not Adolin’s, so any explanation as to why (including my own) is based on inference and guesswork—hardly grounds for a definitive argument, especially given her unreliability as a narrator. Here is the text in question, and even from Shallan, it’s rather vague on motivation: In that one segment, Adolin deflects four times the responsibility of being king. Yes, Dalinar is a steamroller, but the point is that Shallan wasn’t the reason he admitted it. She might like to think so, and from her point of view we see he responded following her input, but the main reason he admitted it was to avoid responsibility. When saying he killed Sadeas didn’t work, he tried to appeal to Dalinar’s love of the codes. When that didn’t work, then he admitted the truth. He’s even shocked that the appeal to the Codes didn’t work. Further, this is hardly the first time he’s stood up to Dalinar. First the visions in Way of Kings, where he asserts Dalinar seek help—until Dalinar decides to abdicate, after which Adolin begins panicking at the responsibility and the is relieved that Dalinar’s visions are true. Secondly, he complains to his father about being ordered to do all the work leading the army when Dalinar is debating abdicating. Third, there’s this quote in Way of Kings that I absolutely love: “Adolin forced himself to smile, however. He tried to be relaxed and confident for Renarin. Generally that wasn’t difficult. He’d happily spend his entire life dueling, lounging, and courting the occasional pretty girl. Of late, however, life didn’t seem content to let him enjoy its simple pleasures. As I have said before, the phrases used to describe a character in their opening chapters are of tantamount importance to the understanding of that character. Again, this isn’t entirely accurate, in either sentence. There are a plethora of reasons characters in fiction stand up to their parents. Most characters have loving parents that they have to leave, and standing up is an emblematic representation of them becoming their own person and going out into the world on their own. And Adolin outright calls his father crazy in Way of Kings, calling his father’s dreams and visions “delusions.” In Words, he flaunts his father’s will concerning Sadeas multiple times, until the point where he murders the highprince in a fit of rage. I’m sorry, but this sentence is 100% false. From Words (warning, slightly graphic): This implies quite a bit of savagery. One would assume he would be ashamed of it, as you stated, however we have this line from Oathbringer that informs us otherwise: Now, onto the Shallan and Adolin analysis. First off, let me start by saying that traditionally, I have always approached this from the standpoint of why I don’t like this marriage for Shallan. However, with Adolin’s now elevated status to “Main Character,” I feel it’s warranted to spend a little bit of time looking at things from his perspective. I hope my responses above have been adequate in providing a base layer that indicates Adolin entered into this marriage, at least initially, because it was easier than finding the “one” on his own, and he’d made such a poor job of it. Further, there is the strong possibility of social sabotage by Danlan. The next question we would want to address is whether or not we see Adolin’s affection actually grow for her over the course of their courtship. This is a matter of some debate, however it is my belief that while, yes, his affection does grow for her over the course of their courtship, that affection does not travel in a romantic and love vector, but rather in the “fast friends” direction. Following his appreciation of her looks, there is one—one—mention in Words of Radiance that he truly cares for her well-being on the level we’d expect of someone deeply in love with another: Of course, this is right after her infamous return from the chasm, where Adolin saved Dalinar (arguably a smart choice) instead of Shallan. Fortunately, things turned out well here. From this scene, we progress throughout the expedition. In all of Adolin’s subsequent POVs (including Oathbringer), we rarely see him give much thought to Shallan. We see plenty of thinking of Adolin from her perspective, and indeed, the vast majority (if not all) of his “affectionate” scenes occur in her POV. What’s odd about this is that, aside from some jealousy on the boat in Shadesmar, we don’t actually see him think about Shallan all that often. He thinks about Renarin, Kaladin, his father, bridge 4, but conspicuously lacking on the Shallan front, when she should probably be at the forefront of his thoughts. This is further amplified during the scene where he tells Shallan (in one of the most disturbing, objectifying scenes in all of Stormlight) that he would let Kaladin have her. Not fight for her, not have his chance to win her, but “have” her, as though she were a possession. Indeed, aside from a few observations about her clothing, he doesn’t even show all that much interest in her—repeatedly ignoring cues that she is extremely upset or disturbed (creation of Radiant, dropping the Helaran bomb), and glossing over what are huge internal bits of anguish (who she is/who she should be, again—Helaran). This doesn’t sell me on the idea that Adolin is madly and irrevocably devoted to her. Next, let us look at the nature of their relationship. Their relationship, like many other Branderson relationships, starts off as an arranged marriage. Neither really gets a whole lot of say in the matter, though presumably they could have refused. They get to know one another, Shallan makes a lot of witticisms that go over Adolin’s head, and he in turn is gorgeous, dashing and “intoxicatingly handsome” with a “rugged ‘I punched a lot of people today’ quality that was fetching in its own right.” From here, we go two directions. For Shallan, the relationship becomes one of desperation and lust. Most of their physical contact and affection is initiated by Shallan. She pulls, forces, and presses kisses on him. Again, from Words: From Oathbringer: Now, before anyone jumps down my throat here, let me be clear: I believe Shallan, at least some part of her, loves Adolin. I believe that at least one part of her is as madly in love with him as she describes. As the quote from Brandon says, Shallan has made her choice. I am not disputing that. What I want to point out is the parallelism between these two scenes. The first, from Words, is just after Adolin tries to back out, or at the very least express doubt of, their relationship and its workability. The second, after Adolin tries to hand her off to Kaladin. The use of language is, I believe, intentional—in both instances, arguably the most defining moments of their respective books, Shallan initiates an over-the-top, passionate kiss to convince Adolin to stay with her. There are many reasons she does this—I will not go into them in this already lengthy post, as that would require an even lengthier explanation. Let’s look at Adolin, now. For Adolin, he appears, in the beginning of the book, to still have doubts. He worries about not being good enough, worries that she’s too good, etc. Most of these are expressed through Shallan’s POVs, because as I mentioned earlier, their relationship is surprisingly largely absent from his POVs. As the book progresses, he becomes more and more aware of her “feelings” for Kaladin, ending with the above scene. Again, neither of these two avenues screams a “madly in love” couple. One is desperate and (pardon my French) horny, and the other has hardly any screen time devoted to the relationship. So let’s talk about their interactions with each other. Surely, even if their love started flawed, they can mature and grow as a couple and develop true love. When push comes to shove, however, Shallan and Adolin are a master/yes-man pair. Adolin does not stand up to Shallan. What Shallan wants, Shallan gets, whether that be a trip onto the Shattered Plains, a kiss from Adolin, or a marriage—ultimately, if Adolin didn’t want any of those things, we’ll never really know, because Shallan effectively steam-rolls him into every one. We’ve already clarified that most physical affection shared between the two is initiated by Shallan. Intellectually, Shallan typically views Adolin as beneath her, and he never really stands up for himself in that right, either. The one area Adolin appears to have some modicum of control, is in that Shallan is severely dependent on him, inevitably using his view of her to form the entire basis of her existence. This is not healthy behavior. So how would this pan out, in the long run? I’ve seen a few people comment that they think that so long as Shallan and Adolin talk things out, everything will be fine. That could not be further from the truth. Marriages have to be built on trust, and dependent relationships, as well as dominating relationships, rarely work well, and this has both. Further, Shallan, despite being dependent on Adolin, despite feeling warm around him and feeling a burning lust for him, doesn’t trust him. She tries to, I think. She tries to open up about her past at one point in the book. But she doesn’t. And at every opportunity she has to tell him, she doesn’t. Conversely, she hides a lot of things from him, even deflecting feelings for another man onto a persona, treating it as a different person—which is a lie. Additionally, we know that there will be a one year time gap between books 3 and 4. At the end of Oathbringer, Shallan is not well. She has a massive amount of rebuilding to do, and I’m afraid she hasn’t even hit the bottom yet—she’s just built up a temporary scaffolding to survive on (Adolin’s image of her). When all of those revelations get brought up, Adolin’s going to have a lot to deal with, from parenticide, to feelings for another man, to the idea that those people Shallan says aren’t her? They actually are. That’s a lot to have to deal with. To compound the complications, Adolin is now highprince. Shallan is a radiant. They will be spending a lot of time apart because of their respective duties—and this is why I brought up the time skip: the first year of marriage is absolutely, quintessentially vital to a marriage’s success. It’s during the first year of living together that you learn most of the other person’s idiosyncrasies, the quirks of their personality, the irreconcilable differences that distinguish you as separate people. And if Adolin and Shallan are frequently going two different directions, only sparing time to play bunnies, then it’s going to be a very, very difficult road for them. Finally, with respect to Adolin, there is the matter with Dalinar. Adolin doesn’t do well with facing things he doesn’t like—he couldn’t ever let Sadeas go, even though most were able to. He dwelt on Kaladin for much of Oathbringer, to the point of jealousy. Dalinar’s revelation concerning Rathalas has yet to really hit, and Adolin will have to deal with that. Which will also impact their relationship. And that, my friends, is my rather lengthy addition to this thread. Good night.

I think, with respect to your point about arranged marriages here, that this is a really insightful statement. We certainly saw its like in Dalinar and Evi as has been mentioned above, and it's a dangerous trap for any author to fall into--I presume its common use has either to do with periodicity (that's how things were done at the time) or because it's easier to shack to characters up together and say they're in love, then to show them actually falling in love. That is a thing that has been attempted prolificly, but rarely is it accomplished well. Shallan and Adolin is a textbook definition of an arranged marriage--it was arranged by a third part external to the two in question without consent. The fact that they could have backed out is moot--a contract was made and established by Jasnah and Navani without consulting Adolin or Shallan. The fact that they actually liked each other is a fortunate benefit, but something that is rarely accomplished, as is indicated in @PlanetReelo's quote above. That said, I don't exactly know what angle Brandon is going to take, but I can confidently say that it's not completely over--even if nothing further will come of Shallan(persona) and Kaladin, there is still the persona of Veil to consider. But I could go at length on that topic and I don't want to sidetrack the discussion with yet another Shallan analysis lol. Shallan isn't exactly megalomaniacal....

I would love to go into this more, but I know some people feel strongly about this so I will state what follows is my own beliefs based on what I've seen, since this is a very thus-far underdeveloped character and we as yet have a lot to learn about her. First, let me explain that my comment before speaks more to the idea that many people have expressed the feeling, not just in relationship to Jasnah, but to strong female characters in general, that a strong, independent female character cannot or should not have a romantic relationship and/or interest in a man, as though having an interest in a man or relationship with one somehow makes her lesser or weaker. That is more of the backbone of my point--that she can, just like you pointed out about asexuality, be strong and have interest in a man. Second, understand I come from a very character-development influenced background, so to start off, I want to lay down a specific fact: Jasnah, though she isn't treated as a main character now, is a main character. Main characters have a lot of development and places they need to go--they don't just enter the story fully formed, because if they did then the story wouldn't progress; they would be flat, unchanging characters. We see this trend as the books progress of Jasnah being given more and more time, of being let more and more into her psyche. It stands to reason therefore that Jasnah will continue to be more developed the longer the series goes on, much like Renarin. Granted, it's been a while since I read OB, so take this with a grain of salt, but one of the many (not pointing at you exclusively, but comments I have seen about her in general over the years) comments I have seen leveled at her, even in this thread, is that she is "fine the way she is." Another is that because she doesn't show any romantic tendencies during her scenes (and even displays some antagonism toward the idea of marriage) is an equivocal analysis that she must either be A.) asexual (no interest in sex) or B.) lesbian (only interested in women). From what I've seen of her, I see no reason why she has to be a character that doesn't have or want any relationship of any sort. Further, I feel that a relationship would be a great way to showcase development of her character--generally, development is best shown in literature through juxtaposition and contrast. For example, the juxtaposition and contrast of Kaladin saving Elhokar versus Adolin murdering Sadeas, both with similar influences and reasons for their actions, serves a great way to contrast the great changes which Kaladin has gone through in Words of Radiance. Jasnah has often been depicted as a loner, solo act--she can hold her own: she's a top-class scholar, elite philosopher, knight radiant-in-training, and now a Queen to boot, and she's done that all pretty much by herself. That makes her pretty awesome, but it also means that she has to develop in other ways. So let's look at possible deficiencies her character has (you Jasnah worshippers, please don't shoot me for saying she has flaws ). First, despite her intelligence, Jasnah is cold and impersonal. Multiple times throughout WoK she is demeaning to Shallan, in WoR she puts in motion a betrothal for Shallan without her permission, and in OB she is wholly ignorant of Shallan's change in life, expecting and demanding that Shallan drop back into the role she had previously filled, despite significant developments on her own. Second, Jasnah is manipulative and controlling. She is the type who can accomplish any task for her own end goals--in many ways, she's Roshar's equivalent of an Aes Sedai, making the world dance to her strings and whims, whether they know it or not. The aforementioned betrothal could be seen as a manipulation of Shallan to tie a budding Radiant to her family, rather than olive branch of help. While I don't read it that way, it's not a difficult interpretation to make. We also know she privately hires assassins to eliminate threats to her family, without the consent or knowledge of that family, and isn't a stranger to the use of political bludgeons, very much in the same way that Ialai was for Sadeas, no matter who might be hurt by those bludgeons, so long as it keeps her family safe. These are just two points, but I hope I've said enough to demonstrate that she has room for growth. And these things in and of themselves are of morally ambiguous nature. So let me go into why I think a relationship for Jasnah would be good for her character development. First, as I've mentioned, Jasnah is often portrayed as a loner, and when viewed through the lens of another character, is seen as cold, impersonal and intense. How do we develop this, see other sides of the woman? How do we have growth in an impersonal character? A relationship would both give us another lens into her character, a way to see Jasnah in a more intimate light, and to show us a Jasnah that is not always poised and in control, but one that has let her guard down a little bit. Second, as Jasnah becomes more important to the story, she needs a foil--someone who is similar enough to her, but who can contrast to her, paint her changes subtle and distinct, but who doesn't wilt at the merest conflict. This, unfortunately, rules out a vast majority of our viewpoint Rosharans, including Navani, Dalinar, Renarin, and Shallan. We have seen very few people able to hold their ground against Jasnah, and a foil necessarily takes up screen time to portray the contrast, so foils are best suited to being primary or secondary viewpoint characters, but a relationship, especially with a viewpoint character such as Kaladin, would give us screen time to highlight those moments of contrast, much in the same way Adolin was able to do for Dalinar in WoK. Third, just because Jasnah is portrayed as disliking being "beholden" to a man (via marriage--a line which could have been referring to Shallan's upbringing or Jasnah's own aversion to the idea) doesn't mean that Jasnah would be opposed to a relationship between equals, or rather someone that she sees as equal and who sees her the same, regardless of whether they are equal in intelligence, temperament, or abilities--Jasnah is a proud woman, and could never be with someone who could not accept her strengths, but in a way I also think this has to do with the idea that Jasnah would be frustrated by a man who wilted any time she stood her ground. Perhaps this is why we've never seen her interested in a man up until OB--all thus far had wanted to either dominate her, or couldn't stand up to her. Now, let me move on to why I feel Kaladin would be a good match. One of the main criticisms I see leveled at this relationship is the age difference. The idea that Jasnah and Kaladin couldn't be in a relationship because of difference in age is, frankly, absurd. I have met many people with an age gap between them, including a couple where the man was forty and the woman sixty. They'd been married for twenty years and were extremely happy. If that can happen in the real world, it could easily happen here. Second, Jasnah and Kaladin are temperamentally similar. Both are internalizers--meaning they internalize their problems and thoughts, rather than deal with them externally. Both are headstrong. Both are also above average intellect, especially for their respective classes. Kaladin was shown being able to banty wit with Shallan in WoR, and held up to Jasnah in OB. Anyone else in that situation, getting that onslaught from Jasnah, would have been cowed, but Kaladin took it and fired it right back. On the surface, this seen could be seen as incompatibility, but on a deeper level, it shows that in a relationship scenario, Kaladin wouldn't be completely cowed when push came to shove. That is the kind of strength Jasnah would appreciate--and Kaladin's education means he would be closer to her intellectually than most men outside the ardentia, as is indicated by his understanding of Shallan's more scholarly ramblings. Third, Jasnah and Kaladin make excellent foils for each other. They are alike enough to be compatible but different enough to highlight their contrasts. Where Jasnah is cold and impersonal, Kaladin is caring and familiar. Where Jasnah is evasive and manipulative, Kaladin is direct and forthright. Where Kaladin is conflicted and consumed by guilt, Jasnah is calm and understanding of the importance of her actions. Where Kaladin struggles with the need to save everyone, Jasnah knows the actions necessary and has the determination to lose what has to be lost. Their weakness highlight the other's strengths and vice versa. Fourth, let's look at chemistry. We have very little to go off of here, but my first impression of their interactions together was that sparks were vivid. Jasnah, stoic Jasnah, smiled after her 'argument' with Kaladin. She was happy to have someone stand up to her and not back down. She shows an interest in Kaladin after meeting him, asking what Shallan thinks of the Windrunner and, yes, I'll even say displaying a tiny hint of irritation that Shallan was sketching him. It could be inferred that Jasnah was angry about Shallan thinking of someone other than Adolin, or that Shallan wasn't fulfilling her duties, but she cracks down unusually hard on Shallan after this. Further, it's implied in Kholinar (I think this was said already) that Elhokar was made to look like Jasnah, and Kaladin approved of the likeness. Now, my proposal for a relationship between these two isn't a dithering, simpering romance--quite the opposite. I see these two as being able to be pillars of strength for each other, complementing each other's weaknesses and strengths, and helping, by virtue of their differences, each other to grow. Jasnah possesses the required level of callousness to help Kaladin learn that he needs to not care so much--the problem heretofore is that everyone tries to console him and be nice to him, to tell him he'll understand later. That's not what he needs--he needs logic, he needs to understand why he can't care. One of his most valuable lessons as a soldier was the logical "us and them". In reverse, Kaladin possesses the directness to not tolerate Jasnah's evasion, which gives him the capacity to penetrate the shells she's placed around herself. And that was a really longwinded way of saying I'm a pretty big Jasnahdin fan. Actually, though I've gone at length about the virtues of Shalladin, I'm actually a much bigger Jasnahdin fan. Finally, I want to point to Subvisual Haze's comment below: I did not know that was a thing. I haven't read Prime, but that's also an interesting indication of their potential for a relationship. Theirs would be a slow, cautious one, a meeting of equals and even if it didn't last, of friendship, but hopefully I've said enough to show that it's at least plausible.

There will likely be a summary document per book, split up into parts developments. For now...you have to make do with what's there, sorry.

I just wanted to thank everyone who has participated in this so far. Things happened in my life, both here and personally, that precluded me from being able to continue for a long while. I intend to start this up again soon, but I just wanted to take a moment to express the appreciation I feel for those who took the time to go along with me, and I hope you'll be willing to stick with me once again. I know I can be...inconsistent. It's a problem of my mental disorder that afflicts almost every aspect of my life, but...probably not today or this week, but soon you'll see me start updating this again. Thanks for your time and patience.

Shallan is by far the most interesting character in all of Stormlight to me. Though OB took a turn I didn't like, she still remains my favorite to discuss.

Just a couple of grammatical things, well one really...it's lose. Loose is to release, lose is to be defeated. Also...I think your proposal would turn out very badly. Nightblood feeds on investiture. What would happen if Dalinar opened the Perpendicularity (assuming that wasn't a one-time event) while holding Nightblood? But it's an interesting idea, and I'll bite. There's no way Dalinar loses a contest of champions if he doesn't fight, but rather Kaladin takes his place. Odium is going to select a champion that will be able to defeat Dalinar, and while Dalinar may be an awesome warrior, his mental fortitude isn't the best. For example, if Adolin were the opposing champion (under the "dark Adolin" theory), Dalinar wouldn't be able to win, no matter what tricks he could pull. He wouldn't be able to kill his own son. Also, if Dalinar doesn't fight (by appointing someone in his stead), he by definition can't lose.

Not going to condemn you for thinking that. Don't get me wrong. It is an interesting idea, but I'm a magic skeptic. I look for reasons why something isn't magic before I ascribe things a magic cause, and if there's enough validity to the non-magic reasons, I assume it's not magic. Assuming everything is magic feels very deus ex machina to me, and that's a literary resolution I particularly despise. Still, points for the idea--it was enough to engage me, after all, and discussion is where the fun is.