Alderant

Yeah, I thought that was curious as well. I'm sticking that one on my "keeping this under observation" board, for the exact reasons you pointed out. Doing this in-depth analysis really kind of brings things to the forefront I'd never really thought about before. As to the organization, thanks! I try really hard to make my thoughts coherent. Would it be easier in your opinion to have a separate document for each chapter, or to continue on in the same document and note any changes that appear in a different color or font or something?

Okay! Shallan's first chapter, Chapter 3, is up!

True. Relying on another person as a foundation for your mental health is generally not a good thing.

Ehh....I disagree that "not choosing" to make the problem worse is a victory, and while she's at least made a decision regarding Adolin, I don't think she's trying to go on "the right path" either. At the very best, she's just becoming stagnant--she's not going anywhere, she's not confronting her problems, she's not trying to get over them, but she's also not fracturing further. At the worst, however, she is either ignoring the problem, or she's avoiding the truth. Both of those are bad options. For me, even a small step in the path to self-closure would be a victory to me, but what she's doing is simply not stepping. She's not going forward or backward. She's reached a plateau, built herself a tenuous foundation to stand on, but she's still fractured. She's still avoiding the problems within, and she's still not her most genuine self. But this plateau's going to crumble eventually and if she doesn't try to climb out of the hole she's dug herself in, she's only going to fall farther.

Hey everyone! After some much needed distance from the books and world of Roshar, I am diving back in from the very beginning and reading through to the end of Oathbringer. Unlike the 7 or 8 times I’ve read the first two books, where I did so for the pure pleasure of it, this time I am rereading with a specific purpose in mind: an in-depth analysis of one of the most confusing and unreliable characters in Stormlight, also known as Shallan Davar. Before I get started, I want to thank those of you who have welcomed me onto the Shard and liked my posts up until now. I have really come to enjoy the Shard, and it's nice to talk about the Cosmere with those who care about it as much as, or more, than I do. Special thanks go to @SLNC, who frequently is able to phrase things I am trying to say in a more concise and direct way, especially when my posts are nearly half a page (on here) long. I'd also like to thank @Fifth of Daybreak, who helped me immensely in developing my "forum voice" and was willing to carry on a rather lengthy debate and call me out when I was getting too heated, without ever making me feel like my thoughts were insignificant. @maxal has also frequently been a rational and contrary voice that explains the opposite side of the fence from me in coherent and well-thought out replies, which is crucial in any effective discussion. Let me preface this analysis by saying that this is a project I have wanted to tackle for a long time. Originally, I intended to do this as a set-up for Oathbringer, but with the birth of my second daughter and complications after, I ran out of time. Then, I planned on doing this immediately after my first read-through of Oathbringer, but other things in life and my own mental state after reading the book forced it to be put on hold until I could be at a place where I could approach this from a more neutral ground. As a little bit of background, when I first read through The Way of Kings, I fell in love with the character of Shallan almost instantly. As an artist myself who has often lived on the side of the fence where I never seem to fit in, no matter how I changed myself or what I did, she resonated with me and spoke to me in a way that almost no other character in any fiction has ever done. Her sense of humor is right up my alley, and having been raised in a somewhat sheltered environment, I see a lot of myself in this character, and the more I read The Way of Kings and Words of Radiance, the more I grew fascinated with her story and how she came to be. Then I read Oathbringer, and her story was hard for me to read, but not because it was tedious or boring, but rather because in a small way, it mirrored something I went through in high school. I love the character--in fact, I believe I actually love her more now than before--but with the chaotic mess that was Shallan in Oathbringer, I believe this is now the right time for this analysis to occur. In some part, this analysis was inspired by @maxal, whose analysis of Adolin pre-Oathbringer was one of the motivating factors in my joining the Shard in the first place. I’ve also observed, as I’ve seen many people comment on the character, that a large majority of readers have a difficult time liking or understanding the character, and some skip her chapters entirely. As Shallan is by far my most favorite character in the entire Cosmere, my hope is that through this analysis I can bring some of what I find intriguing and fun about this character to everyone else. The inconsistency and unreliability of the narrator are only part of the fun. As I progress through this read-through, I will be making a bunch of notes privately, that will probably be completely incomprehensible to anyone else. If you really want to see them, ask and I will post them; however, I will revise those notes into a coherent document that will be updated as I read. During my analysis, I will focus on a few things about the character. Yes, there will be a little bit of analysis of the shipping involved (be warned), but I will strive my hardest to approach it from a neutral ground and point out the good and the bad, as I see it, on both sides. Other aspects of Shallan’s character that I will focus on and try to analyze and explain are: How her past (as it is mentioned in the text) has influenced the narrator we’re reading. Modern influences on the character of Shallan and how that affects the narrator we're reading. Mental jiggery-pokery, or in other words, her mental side-stepping habits, and the immediate and long-lasting ramifications of it. Contradictions in the narrator’s voice, and why those contradictions are occurring. Comparisons between Shallan and Kaladin, with respects to interests, mannerisms, interactions, and mental states Comparisons between Shallan and Adolin, with respects to interests, mannerisms, interactions, and mental states I should note that comparisons between Shallan and the two boys will occur primarily from Shallan's standing. My reasons for the view I have comes entirely from the standpoint of Shallan as a character, not from whether or not I think Kaladin is a better match or Adolin is. As I said, I will try hard to be impartial in my analysis here, and will try to stay away from my opinions on Kaladin or Adolin, generally. SIDE NOTE: I like both of them and I like both of them for her, and for different reasons. I just happen to think one is better than the other, but that is neither here nor there. Comparisons between Shallan and Wayne (from Mistborn Era 2) There are some similarities between what Wayne and Shallan do, and also some stark differences on how those actions affect their mental states. And I’m sure there are other topics that will come up as I read. If there’s something about the character that you feel I haven’t mentioned that you would like included in the analysis, please let me know and I will do my best to incorporate it. If you have thoughts on something I've written, tell me. Discussion is encouraged--I merely am hoping that this will help to make Shallan a more enjoyable character for everyone. One thing I do ask, however, is to stay away from flippant and antagonistic comments--to disagree with me is okay, and it doesn't matter to me if we never agree. On that note…here we go. Let's start The Way of Kings again. EDIT: At @Jofwu's suggestion, I'm including the text from the document below the chapters for ease of discussion (also for indexing, as @Vissy recommended), but I will also have a comprehensive document that keeps track of changes to Shallan over the course of the books. The big document: WayofKings Shallan Character Analysis.docx Chapter 3 - City of Bells: Chapter 5 - Heretic:

It’s all right. No worries. I just wanted to point it out before a mod got on your case.

Just a point of note on forum eitquette, as I’ll get to your thoughts tomorrow (It’s late, I’m tired), I’ve noticed you double post a lot. While we love hearing your thoughts, if you have additional thoughts to your post and no one’s posted a reply yet, please edit your comment rather than making another reply. You can do it however you want. My method is EDIT: Here’s my edits or additions to my post. Doing that just helps kind of keep the arguments together and takes up less forum space (not that I should really talk about this...my posts are usually long). Welcome to the thread!

It’s just because there are a lot of people on here who are really tired about the subject, so we try to restrain it to one board to keep it isolated for the good of the community. I will debate you over there any time though.

Please keep shipping discussion to the Adolin-Kaladin-Shallan discussion board... this specific topic has been debated already over there.

This^^ Also, @IronBars, I have five hours left in Bands of Mourning, and then I am starting a read through of all three SA books, where I will be focusing specifically on Shallan and how she develops over the course of the series, so keep your eyes open for that.

Okay. This is a point that I will never agree with you on, haha. If you want to have a discussion about it let me know.

Okay, that makes sense. I can see why you'd get frustrated by that. I look at her character quite differently from how you describe, I look at her more as like a blacksmith's puzzle to be figured out and unlocked.

Oh I see, haha. Yeah, I've been called out on it several times in my life. I had a teacher in high school sit me down and tell me I was too brusque, and I was insulting my peers instead of helping to perpetuate a discussion. So I just make it a policy to tell everyone that. That's why it's in my profile bio, haha.

...me offending you?

Okay. That's perfectly fine. All I was asking was for you to dial back the vehemence of your arguments and acknowledge the other side more. For the record IronBars, if I ever say something that offends you, just tell me. 99.997% of the time the offense is unintended. It's just the way I talk, and I type almost exactly the same as the way I talk (though with bigger words).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Shallan's 4th Truth given in Urithiru--after the Alethi army had already been saved? Or are we counting "There's something different about my shardblade from all other shardblades" as her 4th Truth? Because I always thought that that sentence was the preamble to her 4th Truth in Urithiru. As to your second paragraph, that makes me sad. What about Shallan do you find boring? Is it the fact that she's a scholar/artist, or that she doesn't have a lot of "action"?

Sigh... Okay. First off, I read through all three pages, and over the course of those three pages your writing became more insulting, and more haphazard the more often you posted. To contradict me when I'm analyzing three pages by point out a reply to one of the very first replies, does not reflect that that behavior continued on throughout the discussion, hence my point. Second, it doesn't matter where I'm from, but perhaps you should take a look at how other people are reacting to your arguments throughout the thread--it's clearly not me imagining in my own different way of talking. Perhaps you're not getting heated--if so, then the need for going back and rereading your posts is even more tantamount. I'm not going to play grammar nazi on you, but the punctuation is much better in this post, so thank you. I'm not trying to be insulting, so if that's coming across I apologize. I do make assumptions based on the way you write and the arguments you've made (I do that with everyone on here)--but if you notice, I also gave you free reign to tell me I'm wrong. The fact that I'm telling you what assumptions I'm making, rather than simply attacking based on those assumptions, is also indicative that I'm not trying to insult you. However, I do naturally have a slightly acerbic way of speaking (I have to carefully proofread and sometimes I miss it) so that's probably what you're picking up on. To counter your point about our opinions not having to match, however (which you are making a repeated point of in this post, and which point I don't actually disagree with), you have practically bludgeoned your point across the thread--others in this post have tried to voice their own thoughts, backing them up with textual evidence, and when they do, instead of simply ignoring it as you are trying to paint yourself, you've actively and antagonistically argued with those who oppose your view. If you're going to post in a forum, you have to expect discussion. Discussion is about the exchange of ideas and thoughts. What you've done here is simply argue with everyone you don't agree with--you're not backing up your arguments with any evidence or even your own examples--you're just saying they're wrong. And that is not good for a forum. As for the last sentence, you're making an assumption that I blindly follow whatever the author's intent is, thereby contradicting your own comment that you don't make assumptions about me. For the record, I don't blindly follow the author. But I do read a large variety of "epic fantasy" and I do observe that there are certain trends in writing things. I take the author's intent into account, but I make my own judgements and thoughts on the material. You'll notice for example, if you look at other boards, I'm quite firm on my interpretation of Shallan as a character. You're right. She doesn't. In fact, her reticence to embrace that truth is what propels her into the regressive arc of the book. Just because she doesn't embrace the truth doesn't mean that she doesn't develop as a character. You know what? You're right. I'm sorry for that comprehend comment. I didn't intend it the way that it apparently came across. That said, I believe I actually acknowledged some of the subtlety in the plot detail in my post about this. I did however, lament the character progression as non-existent. In the little bit of Malazan that I read, the characters were simply objects that the plot acted upon. They had almost no life to me. Not that the dialogue wasn't good or anything, but the actual arcs of the characters were non-existent. Because of that, I got bored. But that doesn't mean you're a bad person or incompetent or anything of the sort because you feel differently--it's great that you have something you love. I actually love Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, specifically the books in the middle that most people find dull and boring. I think they're awesome, and there's nothing wrong with that either. For that matter, I'm not trying to change your opinion either. Bygones is bygones. You can have your own opinion. That's fine. But if you're going to post your opinion in a forum, you have to be prepared for people like me, who like to back up their arguments and have actual discussions. No insults intended.

Exactly the point I was trying to make earlier.

Granted, there are some people out there who enjoy that kind of thing, and there's nothing wrong with that. R.A. Salvatore's Drizzt Do'Urden series is like that, though it's certainly less intricate plot detail. And please don't mistake me in saying that the Malazan books are bad--there's an incredible amount of plot detail and stuff going on behind the scenes that indicates impressive world-building. But my thing in a series is characters. I love character arcs, so character-driven fiction, combined with intricate political plots and awe-inspiring world plots (which is often what a lot of epic fantasy is, as opposed to high fantasy) is fascinating to me. I can appreciate a good plot, I can even appreciate intricate magic systems, but what really motivates me to read is the characters, and if those are lacking, I get bored.

Well, if you take into account the time difference between Earth and Roshar, she's probably an adult by now, actually. I believe there's a WoB stating that people on Roshar are biologically a little older than their same-age earth counterparts. That said...Shallan's problems in OB absolutely deserve a mental health label. This problems here are less about puberty and trying to fit in, as much as they are about identity and Shallan actively trying to repress certain aspects of herself. You'll understand the further into the book you go--but my comment may be outdated, depending on when you finish(ed) OB.

You get a cookie. I think you phrased well the point other people were trying to make. EDIT: That was my general gist of the series as well, though I haven't read more than the first book and a half. The premise was interesting, and even the stuff going on behind the scenes was interesting, but the characters were so dull, opaque, and lacking of motivations that there was nothing actually driving the plot forward for me. I got bored listening to the audiobook, and that was the only way I could even make it through the text.

Admittedly, I'm coming into this discussion late, but I'd like to make some observations here: First, @IronBars, if you want to perpetuate a discussion, you need to tone down your arguments, bud. Reading through all three pages, I get the repeated consistency that you're either A) getting too heated in this debate, or B ), you're not rereading your replies before posting them because you're coming off quite abrasive and antagonistic. Good discussion is perpetuated when both sides are willing to discuss what they have read, which I have seen several people attempt to do on here. You, however, are not encouraging a discussion--you do, however, appear to be perpetuating an argument where you're not willing to budge unless everyone else deigns to acknowledge how right you are, which most people appear to not be. I, and many others I'm sure, don't mind discussing the particulars of OB with you--however, in order for that to occur, you have to get off your high horse and actually read between the lines of what others are saying, and not simply react off the cuff to whatever you disagree with. Acknowledging someone else's arguments, even if you disagree, goes a long way to perpetuating an open forum. Second, punctuation and spelling. This is largely one of the reasons your arguments are coming across as off the cuff, rather than carefully considered. Lack of proofreading makes it difficult to read your words without frustration. Third, while I understand you're disappointed by Oathbringer, I found most of your points to be the opposite in actuality. However, judging from the way you write and the complaints you raise, I'm assuming you prefer overt developments rather than subtle. I'm also assuming you prefer conflicts to occur through big moments, rather than small developments here and there, and I imagine you probably disliked The Well of Ascension because it dragged on for you. If I'm wrong, I would love for you to enlighten me on how exactly, because as I see it, Oathbringer was a phenomenal book for plot and character development. While I agree that the character arcs were largely shunted aside in favor of the overall plot, as @Calderis and @maxal noted, to say that no character development occurred at all in OB is to basically say you either didn't comprehend the development, or you were frustrated by the lack of progress that occurred. Overall, there was a lot of development for Kaladin, Dalinar, and Shallan. That has been noted repeatedly on here. The development was not generally forward (progress) for Kaladin or Shallan, but that does not mean that they did not change. Fourth, I've noted this elsewhere but I'll say it again here: Lightweavers do not swear ideals beyond the first. Unlike Kaladin, who literally binds himself to an ideal (i.e. I will protect those who cannot protect themselves), Shallan binds herself to an aspect of self-awareness. We call these Truths, but they do not operate the same way that ideals do--Shallan can't "mean" her Truth before she makes it because it is an ongoing process of self awareness. Finally, I would do as @RShara recommended above: I do this routinely, and it helps me to see things develop. Brandon writes foreshadowing all over the place--but he also writes in an avalanche style. His books start off slow, then build, and build, and build, until they're racing down the plot mountainside and reach "the big moment" near the end, and being able to see these things happening with a fresh eye helps me enjoy them a tremendous amount more.

@Soulcast .......What would you like to know? I'm laying the grounds for an in-depth analysis of the character during a reread of the SA soon.

Oh okay. I must have misread your comment because I read that as you saying that Veil was a separate identity--looks like we're on the same page here, then. I don't disagree that the Shallan in WoK and WoR may be a mask--however, I feel that of all her masks, this one is perhaps the most genuine and closest to her true self. I apologize for the confusion. I use/think of Veil explicitly as a persona, or a mask. However, the magic system allows Shallan to more fully separate pieces of herself from herself (in her mind), and I believe that most of the pieces that are closest to who Shallan really is were sliced off and contained within her Veil persona during OB. I think you hit an interesting point that Veil was used to please Shallan, instead of others. It's certainly worth further analysis. @maxal Though your views may be contrary, I for one have always found your thoughts and comments insightful and well thought out. I personally view myself as a little more middle ground on the subject (though based on your words I'm sure I'm still quite far away from the middle ground in your eyes), in that I'm not 100% in the camp of ShallanxKaladin. Personally, what you say about Adolin getting a good, centric arc of his own I agree with 100%. That would be nice, especially with the extra role he seems to have taken on, as we discussed in the "Adoling Breaking" thread. That said, I, at least, appreciate your input in the discussion. It's nice to have someone speaking the opposite views, especially when you have a large amount of views in one direction. It helps to have someone to say "stop, let's look at this from another angle".

Aaand Lopen has entered the room. @Vortaan Neat theory. I don't think we have enough material to be able to prove or disprove it, so I'll say I like this theory and give you a cookie.