Alderant

Ugghhh.....the thread blew up in my absence again... Beware the long post. I see that my comments are again applicable. But first, I want to outline the points I want to address: Thanks for clarifying. Definitely a cremhole move then... First off... Yes. On Shallan's part I think this was absolutely a cremhole move. I think Adolin got caught up in the moment. This was done to prove a point, though I think it was more to herself than to Adolin. More on this in a minute. You are partially correct and incorrect on this point. @SLNC does a good job of making a reply to this, but I'd like to tackle it from another angle. Get to that in a minute. This stems from an issue within Shallan, and I think it has to do with her deliberate degradation of him throughout Oathbringer. This is part of point #1. Good points here. There's definitely something different about the way Shallan treats Pattern versus Kaladin & Syl. More in a minute. Finally! Someone else mentioned this! Point #4. Lots of speculation in this paragraph. Shallan's conflicts are not just rooted in the past, like Dalinar. A lot of Shallan's issues are current, but have context from the past to further amplify the issue. The severely underlying problem, however, is rooted in the past and is absolutely one which must be resolved for her character to grow. Point #5. I have been thinking if a divorce happened it would come from Adolin. I think Shallan is too dependent on Adolin to divorce him and we have seen him try to break up with her already. I really do not know what to expect. I want to see Shallan more honest, but I don't know what the impetus will be for her to do that. She is going to need a shove. I don't see her gradually overcoming her problem. I foresee disaster. I got a lot to say on this topic. But I will try to make point #6 brief. Well put as always, my friend. This will be covered in points 1 & 2. Aaand yes, you're right that this is from Kal's POV, but taking this one line in Oathbringer to prove your point ignores both the context that follows (as SLNC pointed out) and the fact that, while Kaladin himself never had time for art (he was a soldier, always consumed with caring for him men), I think there is ample evidence in WoR and Oathbringer that he appreciates it. This is not a focus for this post, so I won't say more. I will be doing a reread of the entire SA soon, so I will look for evidence to support my statement at that time. Now. Here we go. Please bear in mind I do not have a physical copy of OB and am largely going off of my memory, so I may get some things wrong. Point # 1 - Shallan's degrading of Kaladin as a person is an attempt to demonize him and glorify Adolin. Shallan, as has been pointed out repeatedly, has a lot of mental issues going on here. From her appearance on the Shattered Plains in Words of Radiance, to the final marriage at the end of Oathbringer, Shallan and Kaladin have sparked like wildfire. There's ample textual evidence to support this--I'm not going to get into the debate on whether or not the potential was there. Suffice it to say, in the chasm scene in WoR, Shallan revealed more of her true self to Kaladin than she has done to anyone else in the SA, Hoid excluded, and Kaladin exposed himself to her as well. That kind of discourse creates a connection between people, and is largely the root for the "love triangle arc" that we see in OB. I'll admit wholeheartedly that I initially didn't like the way this was handled, but after some time and distance, I'm starting to see that this was actually very clever plot manipulation on Brandon's part. Back to my point, Shallan opened herself up to Kaladin in a very intimate way, and that occurrence is actually what caused this backlash in OB. She recognized that there was something there within her for Kaladin, but she wants Adolin. I've said it before and I'll say it again here: Adolin represents everything that Shallan wants and should have had in life. He is the charismatic lighteyes, the kind of man that every light-eyed girl dreamed of marrying. And he's here. He's obtainable. Had her life gone normally, she might have been married off to a lighteyed man like him, gotten married, had children, and had a happy family. Taking that into account, she clings to Adolin with a surprising level of franticness, desperate to hold on to this one part of her life that is going the way that it should. Look at the dialogue--every time she thinks Adolin is about to leave, she panics. Some part of her, buried deeply to be sure, is aware that Kaladin is an equally suited match, but on a surface level (which is where she operates for most of OB), she believes that Adolin is the one for her. Shallan (on the surface) doesn't want Adolin to leave. For any reason. So she retaliates at Kaladin. She demonizes him, scorns him, and even paints a picture of a really ugly man over him with lightweaving to further contrast that Adolin is the desirable one. You can also look at the dialogue--at the way she describes Kaladin when she is "Shallan"--she belittles him and almost caricaturizes him in her mind. Contrast that to Veil's reactions to Kaladin, which are much more reasonable and take into account more than just his brooding eyes, and that at the beginning of OB the vast majority of mentions of Kaladin's whereabouts and situation come from her POV. And that leads me to point # 2... Point # 2 - What we see in Oathbringer are three personas, with very little of the real Shallan in textual evidence. We also see Veil become more and more like the true Shallan (the one we've read in WoK and OB), while "Shallan" becomes a caricature of "Shallan, the light-eyed girl". First off, I would like to clarify that there is a difference between "persona" and "personality". A personality could be considered a separate entity, and would probably manifest as a different person in Shadesmar. A persona is an act, or a role, that a person assumes for a specific person, and would not manifest as a separate or distinct person in Shadesmar. Therefore, understand that when I say that "Shallan", Veil and Radiant are personas, I mean that they are all roles and acts. Let's recap. At the end of WoR, Shallan is confronted with a Truth that she is not ready to face. Her downward spiral and mental degradation actually begins here, during her breakdown where she laments that she wants her family. Her foundation of mentally ignoring what happened in the past has been cracked and has begun to crumble beneath her feet. She has to shore that up somehow to keep from falling into the abyss that is the broken, frightful monster she fears she truly is. She does this in multiple ways, and we see the beginnings of this at the beginning of OB. I'm not going to go into extreme detail (this will be a big part of my Shallan analysis during the reread), but suffice it to say that Shallan is left raw at the end of WoR, and rather than facing her problems begins to funnel herself into her personas, slicing off pieces of herself (mentally) to augment each of their "personalities" with a bit of herself and make the transition easier. While Veil was originally created for the purpose of infiltrating the Ghostbloods, in OB Veil took on a more realistic tone as Shallan used her to navigate Urithiru in secret. Shallan, by this point, was a very recognizable person, and in order to operate in stealth, she took the guise of Veil. However, when the killings by Re-Shephir began, she felt the need to go deeper into these personas--not because she needed more knowledge of infiltration (which Veil did not have, since she was still Shallan), but rather because as her personas she could ignore the pain of her previous Truth. Pattern also represents that pain, so she needed to create a persona to mentally sidestep that pain. The deeper she went, however, the more she sought to bury the true Shallan. She became "Shallan", a young woman who was easily distracted, who cared little for science (though that had always been the primary reason behind her art, as evidenced by her inner dialogue in WoR), who was "in love" with Adolin and thought Kaladin was "a pretty picture". You can actually see this transformation occur over the course of Oathbringer. Veil, then, her first persona, gradually began to take on more and more of the true Shallan, as "Shallan" perpetually siphoned off the parts of her that were not what she thought she wanted or needed to be. This is why the collapse of Veil near the end of OB was such a drastic situation for Shallan--up until this point, she'd been using Veil more and more to be herself, as "Shallan" had to be someone else. And yet, because of her very proficient mental gymnastics, Veil was still a different identity so she didn't have to hurt, as Shallan did. Therefore, when Veil failed in Kholinar to save anyone (despite her best efforts), Shallan became lost. Veil had actually become the grounding persona, the one closest to Shallan herself, and now, suddenly Veil hurt. She couldn't be Veil anymore--to do so would be to face that pain. But she because of this she was lost. She didn't know who she was anymore, and she couldn't pick to ground herself because she'd been shying away from who she was for so long. Thus, when Adolin squeezed her hand and she stopped at "Shallan", she immediately jumped on it and said "He knows who I am!" Because, at that moment, she could not function without an outside source to tell her who she was. As others have pointed out, we see that this is not truly the case at the end of OB. She has not suddenly grounded herself, but she has decided that she needs to be "Shallan," because "Adolin knows who I am, so that must be who I am." However, the true Shallan by this point has been siphoned off to Veil and Radiant. Veil's much more toned down at the end. Veil hurts too much, so we barely see Shallan dip back into Veil after that, but the evidence is there when even Radiant begins to side with Veil, and Shallan begins wearing Veil's clothing as herself instead of just as Veil. Point # 3 - Shallan's relationship with Pattern is a dark reflection of Kaladin's relationship with Syl. There's a key phrase at the end of WoR and beginning of OB that is largely ignored in the discussion with regards to Shallan and Pattern's relationship: End of Words of Radiance: Shallan say she hates Pattern. Pattern replies with "I know..." Beginning of Oathbringer: Pattern acknowledges that Shallan hates him, and Shallan doesn't refute that fact, though she replies with "I hate myself, too." This is an underlying current with Shallan and Pattern, and it's a dark reflection of Kaladin and Syl. Kaladin needs Syl, Shallan needs Pattern. Kaladin, however, cherishes Syl and I think, truly views Syl as almost like his best, most closest friend. He shows several times in OB that he is concerned about his bond with Syl, and in Shadesmar, he has just suffered a psychological blow. I don't think their relationship is in question here--Kaladin loves Syl, Syl loves Kaladin, and it's not romantic in any way. Shallan and Pattern, on the other hand, have a very different relationship. Pattern obviously wants the bond to progress, but I think Pattern truly wants Shallan to progress as well. I think he genuinely cares about Shallan's well being. He states several times that what she is doing with her mental gymnastics is dangerous and not right. Shallan, meanwhile, has a very deeply buried hatred for Pattern. She acknowledges that he is necessary as part of her Radiancy, but she hates what he represents, she hates what he has forced her to do. I would argue that without Pattern's intervention in WoR, Shallan's arc in OB would have been very, very different. When Shallan and Pattern separate in the sea of beads, I really do think this is symbolic as well as literal. Yes, Shallan in her academic mind would know that Pattern would be just fine in Shadesmar--it's his home, after all. But she doesn't show the care for Pattern that Kaladin shows for Syl. Yes, Adolin would have been in trouble without help, since he didn't have stormlight. That's a valid point. I don't think the symbolism here is that Shallan is choosing Adolin over Pattern--I think the symbolism is that Shallan is choosing to be "Shallan", which (back to my above point) since Adolin represents everything she should have had, and "Shallan" is the persona of that part of her, she is choosing that over healing and coming to an understanding of who she is. Which brings me to... Point # 4 - Lightweavers do not swear oaths beyond the first. They speak Truths as a means of becoming self-aware. Shallan, therefore, in turning away from her problems is fraying the Nahel bond she shares with Pattern. She is not "breaking oaths" as Kaladin had done with Syl. However, she is, in fact, regressing from her Truths. She is turning away from becoming self aware, instead turning to other people to determine what or who she must be. This is the exact opposite of the process of declaring her Truths, and therefore it is not a stretch to imagine that the bond is suffering because of it. Kaladin was on the path to breaking his oath to Syl to "protect those who cannot protect themselves," of which his duty to Elhokar was an extension. He did not break the oath, therefore he did not break the bond. However, his decisions during that period of time were a step in the opposite direction of his oaths, so the bond was strained. This is a direct parallel to Shallan's relationship with Pattern in OB. Point # 5 - The Root of all Shallan's problems lie with Lin, but most of her problems are due to her continued habit of running away from her problems. I will make this brief, since this will be part of the coming analysis, but Shallan's habits of running from her problems began with Lin covering up her mother's death. While I understand the necessity at the time, the entire family encouraged Shallan that it was okay not to think of the death, and this was further encouraged by the family's reticence to talk about it. The point was made that if Shallan can come to grips with her past that everything will be okay--I hope my discourse here has shown that that's not the case. Her problems are in her mental schema--in her methods of excising from her mind the things she doesn't want to think about. Point # 6A - Shallan jumped into marriage because of the emotion at the time, and because Adolin wanted to step back. I know some here will disagree with this statement, and that's okay. But I agree with @Dreamstorm and @wotbibliophile. I don't think the decision to marry Adolin was one of carefully thought out and weighed options. Marriage is a commitment, and it's something that should not be just jumped into, but that's exactly what Shallan did. As I mentioned before, Shallan clings to Adolin desperately, and every time she thinks he is going to step back for some reason, she pounces on the opportunity to reinforce that that's not the case. This is born of insecurity on her part. Point #6B - "Shallan is too dependent on Adolin" and why a divorce will likely not occur. As I've hopefully explained here, it's not that Shallan is dependent on Adolin, per se, but rather that he is and represents what she thinks she wants. Unless she comes to some startling self-awareness between books 3 & 4, I seriously doubt Shallan intentionally divorce Adolin because of a change of heart. As of the end of OB, she is largely still unaware of who she is. She thinks she is "Shallan" because Adolin says so, but I think the arrival of her brothers is going to point out that she's not being honest. Her brothers will likely recognize she is missing her love of natural science. They will probably remark on the changes in her personality. This will happen over time, but in large part she wants to be with Adolin. Adolin, on the other hand, will probably not divorce Shallan. He's tired of courting, and Shallan is pretty much the girl of his dreams. He's finally got her hand in marriage. Yes, he might step back if Shallan told him that she loves Kaladin, but I don't see that happening any time soon. Right now, Shallan's arc with Adolin and Kaladin is at a pseudo-resting place. I think both Shallan and Kaladin have things they have to work through before there can be a possibility that they will have a meaningful relationship. Kaladin was not at a place in OB to pursue one, and Shallan really wasn't either. For that matter, when we analyze things like plots, we have to look at what a plot stands to gain or lose by a specific occurrence. Divorce is a big deal, and I think one of the reasons it's so touted is because we all like Adolin. Divorce is the easiest way for us to possibly have a Shalladin relationship without getting rid of Adolin entirely. "Adolin and Shallan get divorced, and then we still get to enjoy Adolin while Shallan and Kaladin get together." In terms of plot, however, what do we stand to gain from this, other than the pleasure of all three characters staying alive? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It creates unnecessary relationship drama (that dreaded "love triangle" thing we all hate), but other than that, it doesn't serve the plot. Adolin is not a main character, so most of the angst from that will come from Shallan, which we don't want to read. In fact, isn't that the exact thing that most of us are against? Plus, Brandon doesn't really do relationship drama like we would see in a more romance-centric plot. Now, I know the argument floats out there that it's a terrible thing for main characters to get together because all we read is relationship drama, yada yada. Think of the relationships throughout his various series, however. The best example is Vin and Elend. Both are viewpoint characters. Both are in love with each other and marry each other, but their relationship never gets in the way of the plot. That's not how Brandon writes, so I doubt divorce is really on the table. Therefore, if Brandon is setting us up with a love triangle and not resolving it in a seemingly satisfactory, it stands to reason that it is going to affect the plot. He doesn't just put that stuff in there for drama, but because these things are crucial to the way he wants these characters to develop. This is why I have stated before that we stand to gain more, plotwise, from Adolin's untimely removal from the scene (via death, dark Adolin, etc), rather than a divorce. A good example of what I am talking about is Sazed and Tindwyl. Sazed and Tindwyl were only a romantic item for a brief period of time--however, her death devastated Sazed and catapulted him into his entire arc for HoA. I believe that Brandon has set Adolin up for a similar fall--personally, I'd rather see him die than go dark. I'd love for Adolin to be the shining guy he is right up to the end. And that death would exponentially serve the plot better than his continued existence. It would impact Kaladin, sure, but Shallan and Dalinar would have severe blowbacks, from this, I think. To head off the more erroneous arguments "But Dalinar didn't react to--" "But we never saw Navani mourn--" "But the Maya revival arc--" "But I'd rather Shallan leave and be happy than try to stay in an unhappy marriage--"

Should probably point out that the only "series" in this list is Mistborn (the Final Empire). Elantris has an offshoot novella totally unrelated to it (but taking place in the same world) titled "The Emperor's Soul". Shadows and Sixth are both standalone novellas. Wouldn't want you to get your hopes up starting one of these only to have them dashed when you finally discover that they are the only ones in their respective worlds thus far.

Right? I mean...that's kind of terrifying to think about.

Ah, my friend. Sometimes incomprehensible size is the price of progress. Agreed. I mean...I get it. I get why the conversation must take place. I may not agree, but I get it. Wholehearted agreement there! I mean, I enjoy the topic as much as anyone over there, but it's frustrating trying to fight the same debate in three different places. E.g., "If you go to this thread over here, you'll see how eloquently I worded this argument there and because of that I'm not going to do that here..."

Mistborn is a must. Then Warbreaker, so you understand who Azure, Zahel, and Nightblood are. ————— Alternatively, I will recommend some non-Brandon or non-Cosmere books that are also excellent reads, even though its unrelated to your question: The Reckoners, by Brandon Sanderson The Licanius trilogy (only books 1 & 2 are out), by James Islington The Partials series, by Dan Wells The Michael Vey series, by Richard Paul Evans. The John Cleaver series, by Dan Wells

You have a way with words, my friend. That's the same point I've been trying to make.

@Starla Thanks for your comments and analysis! I'll admit I read Kaladin a little bit differently, but I largely agree with your interpretation of his arc. I agree that he made a lot of progress in the book--much more than I think most are willing to admit. I do think, however, that Kaladin's not completely over his mental insecurities--one of the big hallmarks of that is that he doesn't try to pursue Shallan at all. I've said elsewhere that I think that's a good thing--I don't think Kal was in a place emotionally to pursue a romantic relationship in OB. And he does seem a bit more lost at the end of OB than he was. He seems to have largely lost his drive, and I think that's an important setback for Kaladin to have. In WoK and WoR, Kal was largely motivated by two things: duty and hatred. Those are powerful motivators, but as you pointed out at the beginning of your post, by the time OB starts, he's largely getting over his hatred. That leaves him with only duty as his primary fuel, and when he failed in his duty with Elhokar, because he couldn't bring himself to involve himself against either side of people he cared about, it rocked him hard--I'd argue Kaladin hadn't been rocked that hard since Tien's death. This was totally different from the despair of WoK--this was a mind-numbing, crippling realization that he couldn't protect everyone, something he's always tried to do. So now his hatred is gone and duty has failed him...what does he have left? That seems to be the question looming over his head during his conversation with Teft and the end of OB. On another note, I have to say that I really enjoyed the conflict between him and Jasnah. That was far better than I could have expected, and was a nice reprieve from Shallan being an utter snob to him...though I do have to say, his reaction to her lightweaving of him, as read by Michael Kramer, was absolutely hilarious. On the topic of Shallan, I really do think that the bond is fraying. There's not a lot of textual evidence like there was for Syl, but Shallan as a narrator was a lot more unreliable than Kaladin was during his time, and comments from Pattern like "Can't you tell who you are" and "This lie is not right" really bothered me. But rather, I don't think it's the Truth itself that damaged the bond, but rather Shallan's attempts to run away from it. Remember that Lightweavers don't speak Oaths, like the rest of the orders. They speak Truths about themselves, to gain self-awareness and actualization. Pattern forcing Shallan into the Truth I think was absolutely necessary at the end of WoR--in order for them to progress, Shallan needed to confront the truths about herself. And yet, rather than confronting those truths, she chose to run away. She delved into her personas in large part to avoid those truths. After the beginning, we see almost no mention of her fourth(?) Truth, and at the end, she is not reflecting on that Truth, but rather on a bastardization of her conversation with Hoid. I think we're still in store for aftermath and ramifications of her Truth. TBD.

Agreed. I actually really enjoyed his character arc, though it was heartbreaking at times. Poor guy just kept getting knocked down at every turn. I didnt think his arc was stagnant at all—he just had what I call a descending arc: he started high, riding the momentum of his successes at the end of Oathbringer and feeling confident about his new place. Then things just kept knocking him down. I agree wholeheartedly that one of his most powerful scenes was when Adolin was wounded and he couldnt say his oaths. I dont know that writing Adolin into a death would be useless to the narrative. I think, with how much Adolin is loved by the main characters, his death would actually have enormous impact on the narrative—much more so than the feared continuation as he is currently written.

Shallan. Has always, is currently, and will always be. She’s my favorite character in the entire Cosmere, so of COURSE she’s my favorite Radiant.

On another note, since we have an entire thread dedicated to Adolin being a Mary Sue character, and the majority of this thread (according to what Ive seen and the summary) has been about either Shallan or Adolin, does anyone feel like talking about Kaladin? Or should we rename this thread “Adolin and Shallan have issues and we might talk about Kal once every 10 pages” Lol. Im just joking. Im really enjoying this conversation, and I can talk about Adolin and Shallan ad infinitum. But seriously. Any thoughts on Kaladin in OB? If not—totally okay with that as I said. Just wanted to give anyone burning with Kaladin comments a chance to get them out.

You earned it!

Well put, as always. Thats exactly what Ive been trying to say. Thank you for your post. I think we’re on the same page here. Cookie for maxal!

I was a little surprised, but considering the nature of his order and his own twisted view of the world, it made sense to me why he would choose the path he did. His order preaches the law above all else, and he sums up his reasoning quite well in Oathbringer--the Singers were the original inhabitants of the land, therefore it is the Singers whose laws should be enforced. Up until this point, he was obeying the laws of humankind, while going around and destroying budding surgebinders because he feared that the Singers would return. Now that they have...like I said, it makes sense to me.

Uhh...that would also make him a monster. He would become a threat to all spren (even if unwillingly and still remains a nice guy about it), not to mention what would happen to Maya if she absorbed a bunch of other spren? And if he absorbed investiture, how would that affect his Radiant companions? Would he constantly absorb investiture (like Nightblood when it is drawn), or only when his blade is summoned?

You know, I'd almost venture to say an extension to PewterWay could be something akin to jiujitsu or another grappling method. It relies mainly on holds and locks meant to tire your opponent without tiring yourself. Seems like something right up a Pewterarm's alley.

Hey, that's the same thing that happened to Colavaere in Wheel of Time!...wait...is that a metaphor for something?

Oh I think there is a reason for it. It's just not a reason most would like. It's not so odd if you think about it from the fall standpoint.

People who say that are usually people who like very direct stories, point A to B plot writing, fast pacing, and blatant character development. Teen fiction, some of the simpler high fantasy, stuff like that. There's nothing wrong with that, but I've found that people who complain about Brandon's works are usually people who have a harder time enjoying subtle plot and character development. It's like Robert Jordan--a lot of people complain that the Wheel of Time has several books where nothing happens, but a lot of the development in those books isn't action scenes and big battles, its subtle character development and political implication. I really enjoy it--many do not.

That's true. And that's actually why I think he's being set up for a big fall--we've had him as a pretty big viewpoint character, we all like him, but he's not getting much development. Surprising direction in store? Definitely. Will it be controversial? More than likely. And I would consider Jasnah secondary and Navani to be tertiary. Jasnah has had some noticeable growth as a character in Oathbringer, she brings a lot to the plot table (even though she has only a handful of viewpoint scenes), plus she's a main on the back 5. I would also consider as secondary right now probably Teft (he's had multiple viewpoint scenes in WoR and OB, and his character is growing and developing quite well) and Szeth, probably. I think they're more akin to Adolin's priority level than Navani is. Though others may feel differently.

Yeah. Totally. He could go dark, he could die. I just think his removal, in some way, would have a greater impact on the story at this point. Maybe if he'd been written more importantly in this book I'd think otherwise, but as he's been written...

I tried to explain this above. It’s got to do with the way epic fantasy in general is written. Secondary characters in epic fantasy are not just support for the main characters, as in other genres. They are plot devices through which our understanding of the world, the plots, the stakes, and the main characters themselves are expounded upon. Lift for example, though a main character in the back 5, is serving as a secondary character in the first 5 and aside from the novella, has some very small character arcs. In epic fantasy, it's perfectly suitable for secondary and even tertiary characters to have viewpoints, as they immerse us more fully into what is going on. Unfortunately, this is also why epic fantasy books usually have a HUGE cast of characters.

And theres the refutation I was looking for! Thanks for the clarification @Weltall!

To everyone who forced me to write that long post for almost an hour, have a cookie!

True. Appeasing all readers is impossible. And I don't see Brandon taking the easy way.

Let me clarify: infidelity does not necessarily mean adultery. Infidelity could refer to the heart as well. It's not a matter of stick out a miserable, "I never wanted this" relationship. Part of her did want this. And yes, while she wasn't mentally stable (I can't believe I'm defending this...I'm one of the loudest voices on here about Shallan's mental problems, lol), the other personas ultimately fell in line with the decision, so its not like she was wholly incapable, like Taravangian on a bad day. It would be a betrayal of her marriage vows, but it would also be a betrayal of Adolin, and as I've stated before, Shallan clings to Adolin on a subconscious level because Adolin is everything her life could have, should have been. I do think that an act of physical passion between Shallan and Kaladin would be bad for both their characters. For Shallan, it would become another thing to hide, another thing to further fracture her already treacherous mental state. For Kaladin, it would be another excuse to beat himself up and tell himself how worthless it is. I don't think it's a necessary plot point for their development, nor do I think that Brandon will write it that way, since that's a very normal triangle-esque thing to do. FOR THE RECORD, you guys need to stop quoting me while I'm typing lol! I'll address you all in turn. Good points here. I agree to a degree, but like I said, I think it would make for a more interesting story for her to stick it out. She does love Adolin to some degree, and what I said above applies to your discourse as well. I agree on the Adolin bearing responsibility point. Absolutely agree, especially since he's helping to keep her fractured, rather than heal. Agreed. That was my entire point. However I need to point something out to you here: Devout and orthodox do not mean the same thing. You need only look at Christianity for evidence of that. What is being described here is that Dalinar is non-traditional, but believes in a god, while Navani believes in the traditional depiction. Navani is not, however, super devout to the Vorin faith. She does un-Vorin things since her appearance--she pressures Dalinar into a relationship, despite their religious relationship as siblings, she wears gloves instead of sleeves, and she is openly critical of the Vorin church to Dalinar. These are not indicators of a devout believer. And I agree with your last paragraph. Ookay. I see where you're coming from here. I understand your points, and they are valid. I'm going to quote you several times just so I can thoroughly address each point in turn. I'm not saying that I want Kaladin and Shallan to get together at the cost of Adolin's life. I'm saying I would rather Shallan work to make her relationship with Adolin work, and have something on Adolin's end (lack of commitment, incapacitation, abduction, death, whatever) occur before and if at all Kal and Shallan get together. I don't think the way you've spelled it out is the only way it could happen. Shalladin could be resolved through a mutual conversation and both decide it's a bad idea. Shallan moves on, is happy in her marriage, and Kaladin moves on and finds someone else. But I digress, your point is valid and I agree that it seems likely. Here's the thing that no one wants to acknowledge. Adolin isn't as important to the plot as Shallan or Kaladin. He is important to us. If his marriage with Shallan is the end-all of the drama, than either Adolin's going to fade into the background aside from the potential of the Maya plot and his conflicts with Shallan (which will be the main source of the relationship drama), or Kaladin is going to have to be taken out of the equation in some way (possibly as I described above). I'm not even pushing the Shalladin idea here. I don't really care. Right now, Adolin's removal serves a greater impact as a plot device than his continued persistence. Which would you rather have? Adolin stuck in a diminishing role while Shallan and Kaladin continue through as main characters? Or Adolin bowing out in a grand manner that profoundly impacts both the story and the characters? I personally would prefer the latter--something like Shallan re-integrating and working through her struggles with Adolin only to have it be cut short would be a much more interesting and satisfying conclusion than to have Adolin just fall by the wayside and become a plot device to cause Shallan drama. But that's my thoughts, and you can agree to disagree. That's fine. There. I think I've replied to everyone.