Alderant

I worry about this. I REALLY worry about this. As I've said before, Shallan's personas allow her to act without the same inhibitions as she has as "Shallan, the bright-eyed lady," so the danger is very real that if she chooses to shove the situation with Kaladin into a corner and create a persona to deal with him, she will eventually do something she'll regret. Again, Radiant is still Shallan. People need to stop treating her personas as separate identities. They are all still her, they still have her memories and knowledge. They are just different versions of her that allow her to do something different--not separate people.

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't believe that all of the twinborn combinations have been officially listed. Theres 16x16 possible combinations (256), excluding the mistings/single-metal feruchemists. And I'm not sure if this is a spoiler or not (I believe this was revealed in Hero of Ages, but I'm not certain), so here. For the rest, RAFO, unless someone has an applicable WoB to share.

I agree that it's a little(?) odd. It seems to me through the flashbacks though that Shallan was really consumed during her childhood, mentally, and frequently prone to memory lapses whenever her thoughts strayed a certain way. And seeing her tendency toward wholeheartedly avoiding things that cause her pain, I wouldn't be surprised to discover that she subconsciously shoved those thoughts of Helaran away before they ever broke the surface. Have an upvote, my friend. I didn't realize this until you pointed it out. Except that she DID eat spicy food, just recently, at Adolin's behest, and it was quite the, um, vivid experience. As I said, if this is post-Oathbringer Shallan (a la Sazed in HoA), then it wouldn't be incomprehensible for Shallan to turn against the Vorin church. We haven't seen what all goes on yet. I just don't think there's room to discount anyone yet.

Explain? When did Shallan use her abilities to transform the deserters? She used her abilities (infant as they were at the time) to augment herself, but what changed during that scene, to my knowledge, were their purpose and sense of duty. They had been ill-treated by their brightlord and (Gaz especially) forced into terrible events day after day that were going to get them killed for no other reason than greed. They could have done something terrible to her but she was able to stir the deeply insulted and hurt honor of the men and motivate them to aid instead of assault. As far as I am aware the changes that took place were psychological--not magical.

Ive seen that comparison a lot, but the two abilities are completely different. When Shai uses her abilities, the subject itself is changed cognitively. It “thinks” it is something else. And will still be that way if Shai is 3000 miles away unless someone removes the seal. And when Shai uses her abilities on herself her past is literally rewritten and her body changes accordingly—muscles, knowledge, experiences. Shallan’s lightweaving only affects the senses. Its imagination made real, per se, but all of the changes Shallan makes are ephemeral. When she leaves her illusions dissipate, because thats all they are: illusions. When Shallan uses lightweaving on herself, Shallan is still the same. She doesnt have any more or less knowledge than she did before. Her physical musculature doesnt change. And most importantly, her personality stays the same. She is just pretending—that makes her wholly different from Shai.

So are you saying that Amaram is more despicable because he’s excusing what he’s doing, while Mr. T is admitting what hes doing is terrible?

Umm...Ive talked about this at length elsewhere (ask @SLNC, hes seen all of them I think), but the short of it is that I think theyre doomed. Shallan and Adolin just dont trust each other in the most meaningful way—both are inclined to close up and tell no one about anything going on in their lives. The exception for Shallan is Kaladin. Shes told him more of herself than she has told anyone, and she is at her most genuine around him. Shes not all that genuine around Adolin, and I think when things come to a head their relationship is going to fall apart because they dont have a binding glue to their relationship.

I see the conversation being one of great emotions for Shallan. Kaladin might try to dissemble, though I can't imagine he would if she were to ask him about it directly. He'd have no reason to hide it from her--he's not trying to win her hand or anything, so if she asked I hope he would just tell her. She knows the circumstances around it, she could deduce that Kaladin wasn't to blame for what happened. That said, people rarely judge themselves and others to the same standard. That's why the phrase, "you can't judge a person by their actions and then yourself by your intentions" exists. I don't see this being something Shallan just dismisses--I imagine she's going to hurt and cry, and Kal's not going to know what to do to help her. I will admit though that for Shallan's sake I'm less concerned about hers/Kaladin's relationship than I am about hers/Adolin's.

I actually hate him. I liked him up until the end of WoK. Now I think he's one of the most terrifying characters in the series.

I think you misunderstand what's happening here. Shallan is not "collecting personalities" as in individual, separate people inhabiting one body. Shallan is not slicing off pieces of herself and having them become self-aware--she is adopting a persona that allows her to do something that she could not do on her own. Veil = allows her to move around in rougher circles and among darkeyes without much notice. Also her "Ghostblood" persona. Radiant = allows her to handle matters of battle, swordplay, and the Patternblade. HOWEVER (and this is a big however, hence the caps), both of these personas are still Shallan. She is not "shutting off" to allow another personality the use of her body, which is what happens with DID. Both Veil and Radiant are still Shallan--with Shallan's goals and motivations. They simply allow her to do things differently. The danger with what she is doing comes along with inhibitions and excusability, as well as their use as a coping mechanism. Veil allows her to do things she wouldn't normally do--"Veil" is different from "Shallan," so Veil doesn't have the same inhibitions. Veil can go into the rowdy bars and drink horneater ale. Veil can get away with stabbing a man's hand and showing the Ghostblood's symbol. Because to everyone else, Veil is a different person. Same with Radiant, though this is more of a cognitive separation on Shallan's part. Radiant is able to do things (like touch the Patternblade without all the angst) because "Radiant" does not have all of Shallan's baggage. Radiant is too similar to Shallan, though, and looks exactly like Shallan, so she has a harder time pretending to be Radiant than Veil. The big danger she faces here isn't that the personalities will begin to act on their own--it's that Shallan, under the pretense of one of her personas, will do something stupid that she wouldn't have done otherwise because she is lacking "Shallan's" inhibitions. The other danger has to do with Shallan's own mental state. She's running from her problems. She uses the personas to avoid dealing with those problems. Radiant was a mental side-step to her most recent Truth. That's why it's dangerous.

For once we agree! I've seen this behavior on both sides, without anyone actually taking into account how those thoughts would get processed. So thank you. Oh you speak like a Kaladin groupie, lol. I am, first and foremost, a Shallan fan. I am second a Shalladin shipper. So it may seem like I take the devil's advocate view here. I'm not. I don't know that Shallan will forgive Kaladin all that easily. Yes, Kaladin has been broken just like Shallan, and the two are able to share a bond that doesn't exist with Adolin. Here, Shallan does something she's not really done with Adolin before--she's opening up about something to him. Granted, the whole Amaram/Helaran thing is a pretty surface concern compared to the rest of what is going on. However this is a good first step. So the big argument has been that Shallan might have pieced it together prior to this, so this is confirmation that she has not. Ooh. There's pain. Why is there pain? Shallan doesn't compartmentalize her trauma--she wholesale runs away from it. She doesn't want to think about it. Again, this isn't compartmentalizing just for the sake of dealing with it later. She does not want to confront this possibility. Her Truths are not letting her hide from her trauma. They are forcing her to be aware of them. This therefore, is one thing that Shallan can shove aside and not think of. She doesn't want to be confronted by this. She doesn't want to think about this. THREE TIMES she has to tell herself not to think about this. So the question is, why? Shallan and Kaladin's chasm scene was deeply intimate. They both (figuratively) laid themselves bare for the other to see, and through their experience a bond was formed. Kal fell hard for Shallan, but knowing how suited Adolin and she appeared to be, and with his budding friendship with the prince, Kaladin shoved down his feelings and buried them to step aside. Shallan, on the other hand, has never truly been in a meaningful relationship. She's not aware of the depth of her own feelings, so she is shocked when this revelation hurts. Kaladin isn't just someone she likes, she subconsciously cares for him on a deeper level, so knowing that he was involved in Helaran's death hurts. Yes, Kaladin was a victim of circumstance, but regardless he killed her older brother, whom she idolized. That's not going to be easy to come to terms with and I don't think it will come until after Kaladin returns to Urithiru. My prediction is that with everything going on, when Kaladin returns she is going to avoid him. Forced to deal with so many things she doesn't want to deal with, she's going to choose to avoid dealing with her feelings regarding this him and Helaran, and Kaladin will have to confront her about it. It will be emotional. It may or may not start their relationship officially. But the point remains that she does. not. want. to. think. about. the. fact. that. Kaladin. killed. her. brother. Also as a note here... It's all too common to say "Kaladin murdered Helaran." He didn't. He killed Helaran, but it was in self-defense, defense of his men, and defense of his brightlord. That counts, in the moral scheme of things.

I'm inclined to think along this line of thought. Kaladin, tears pouring down his cheeks told Amaram that he would have given him the shards had Amaram asked. And yes, we're told Restares told him to do it, but Amaram shows a lot of avarice when it comes to shards. The big question here seems to be do the ends justify the means, or do the means have to justify the ends? This is the big problem with bringing in morality to the situation. Facts: Amaram murdered his own soldiers and branded the man who saved his life as a slave to cover up an act of theft. Amaram attempted another theft of a shardblade for his own reasons. Regardless of morality, those are not the acts of a good man. Moral dilemma points: Amaram believed that he was uniquely qualified to save mankind, therefore he should have the shards. Amaram has displayed marked avarice with regards to the possession of shardblades. Amaram did not ask for the shards taken, believing that Kaladin would eventually demand the shards taken (lawfully) from him and cause insubordination. 1. Amaram may have believed he could save the world, but murdering men who have placed their trust in him and their lives in his hands is one of the most heinous acts of betrayal in the history of soldiering. 2. Amaram's avarice and desire for "the greater good" means simply that Amaram will do whatever he feels is necessary to ensure that his goals are met. He has a pang of guilt over killing Kaladin's men, so he does Kaladin a "mercy" and brands him a slave, then perpetuates that Kaladin's men were deserters and tried to go over to the enemy. This is a cover-up on a colossal scale. 3. Amaram dispenses with Kaladin and his men for the sake of avoiding an inconvenience down the road. Not because the world would have been endangered by his soldiers, but because he believes that there is no reason a darkeyes would reject a shardblade. This shows not only cold indifference toward his men, but also a distinct prejudice.

Thank you. That's as honest an analysis as I've seen on this sequence yet. Especially coming from someone as pro-Adolin as yourself. I think she's idolized Helaran in her head. She has a head-canon from her girlhood of Helaran being this loving older brother who was always attentive to her and her desires. This is a really common phenomenon when siblings are as much younger than older siblings as Shallan and Helaran are--they idolize the older sibling, practically worship them. So to Shallan, she would be angry over someone killing her favorite older brother. I think you missed the mark here. I don't think she was doing it in this situation because of her broken past, but rather because Kaladin was directly involved. I don't think she has realized just how she feels about Kaladin yet. I think she's still wrapped up in making the betrothal with Adolin succeed, but this section was surprisingly tender (even for me) in her reaction.

Okay. I will admit first off I have not read through this thread or through the last one, so if I repeat something someone else has said or already refuted, my sincere apologies. Things have been a little busy for me and I've not had the time I had a few weeks ago. Chapters 25-27 fill me with a lot of ill-ease and concern. I will freely admit that Shallan is reacting to things much better than I anticipated, which is awesome (I'm the kind of "always sees the worst possible result first" person). That said... Chapter 25 - The Girl Who Looked Up I really wonder who is writing this book. My thoughts have really been leaning toward either Dalinar dictating this (though that seems to be getting less likely over time, the recent entries make it a reasonable idea), Shallan, or Jasnah. And before anyone goes off on the "the in-world books can't be written by a character" tangent, they can. Especially since "the personal journal of Navani Kholin" has been used. I do wonder if it's actually written by Shallan-post Oathbringer. We saw this happen in Hero of Ages where the epithets were written by Sazed, post-the Catacandre. I'm going with the whole "the Unmade are Odium's equivalent of Heralds" theory. And I think this is likely an Unmade, though I'm admittedly not well-versed in their characteristics. This whole sequence was bizarre and horrifying. So it's not revenge killing or psychological warfare. It's something attracted to violence, in a similar fashion to spren, but it's duplicating the violence. Interesting... Chapter 26 - Blackthorn Unleashed This whole sequence made my stomach roll. Dalinar was savage. I'm looking forward to how Dalinar's and Evi's relationship grows from here, though I imagine we won't see a ton of the building in the flashbacks. These seem very focused on Dalinar's change from who he was to who he became and the reasons behind that change. Especially because of: Oh, Dalinar. We knew this scene was coming but I didn't think it would come in quite this way. Chapter 27 - Playing Pretend The meat of my remarks comes from here. I think this points to it being an Unmade, in my opinion. Not a spren...per se, but definitely something of Odium, as Pattern points out. And with it's human-like qualities but ability to squash its body into a tiny crevice (a la the Golem from the Wheel of Time?), points to it being something of human-like. I don't think it's Aimian...I think we've seen both types of those now. And coupled with the feeling of wrongness in the place... I really should have expected this...but I didn't. Wait...really?! I didn't expect this to come up quite so quickly, but now you've gone and outed the thing. Okay. Well, at least Shallan reacted exactly the way I expected her to. But that was a surprisingly tender reaction, even for Shallan. I make it no secret that I ship Kaladin for her--I still maintain that Kaladin is best for Shallan. But in reading this segment something clicked for me as to why her relationship with Adolin seems off. ( I won't share what so I don't set off the Shadolin crowd ) I don't want to get into it with anyone (heaven knows we've debated the topic ad nauseam and will still continue to do so until Brandon picks one), but judging Shallan's reaction here...Though she has vastly more experience with Adolin around, Kaladin's worked his way into a very sensitive area of her heart, as I have pointed out before. That chasm scene was more than just two people surviving together in my opinion. If anyone does want to continue the debate, I will gladly do so...elsewhere, lol. I don't want to fill this board with more shipping wars. This really reminded me of the sequences leading up to her first dip into Shadesmar. What is her subconscious seeing?

That's what I mean by withdraw. I don't mean she's going to just pull away and ignore him (we haven't really seen that kind of behavior from her before--usually if there's a problem between her and someone else, she confronts it), but I think, on a subconscious level, she's going to have a harder time being "normal" around him with everything going on in her head. Agreed. 100%. The murder itself is in a very morally gray area. Ooh. Good point. I hadn't considered that angle. Adolin's withdrawal from her could be a damaging blow to either Shallan's own sense of self-worth or as confirmation of her own fears about herself. Have a cookie.

Most of them weren't actually fighting, they were busy summoning the storm. Even those that were fighting they didn't know how to use the new forms effectively. Also keep in mind that the Radiants were few and far between, when you compare the overall fight of humanity vs. voidbringers. The voidbringers were meant to destroy humanity en masse, so in order to compete against that, the Radiants would have to be overpowered when compared with the normal class of soldier in order to adequately protect humanity. And I like DiamondMind's point up here--most members of the Stormform were so focused on summoning the storm they didn't come to until just before they were slaughtered by Adolin and his crew, but the ones that were fighting the normal soldiery were devastating the field of battle, despite being unused to their own abilities. The only ones that really stood a good chance were the Shardbearers until the tides were turned.

For Shallan, this is actually not that genuine. I can't think of a single time when she really cares about her appearance around anyone, beyond the modest and religious implications. When Adolin pops up a few chapters before, she's not upset that he's seeing her in a mess, but that she is immodest. She was a mess when she was before the slavers in WoR, she was a mess after the chasm sequence, and not once in any of those instances does she really exhibit a care about how she is perceived. As far as being genuine here, I believe she is actually at her most genuine with him when she is complementing how he is like his father. Yet, as SLNC pointed out: Also, regarding Sadeas's murder: I like how SLNC put things here. I bolded what I especially thought was applicable, but regarding the general "oh Shallan won't care because of--" lines I keep hearing, you have to take into account her trauma as well. No matter how much someone loves/likes/appreciates someone, if that person does something that reminds them of a traumatic event they are likely to freak out. I freaked out on my wife once because she hung up the phone during a fight (our equivalent to walking out the door) early in our marriage because I have abandonment issues from a previous girlfriend. Let me say it again: Shallan's father beat and killed several of his servants and Shallan's stepmother in fits of rage. No matter how she feels about Adolin, that is going to trigger the fear she felt during that time of her life. Do I think it's a deal-breaker, no. I think if the two could open up and be honest with each other, that they could work through it and be a strong couple. But they aren't. They came to the precipice, but backed down. The reason I see this revelation as being a bad thing for them is twofold: (1) Shallan is going to ultimately withdraw from Adolin as her fears and own mental problems compound on each other, and (2) Adolin will be emotionally weak and vulnerable after this revelation, and I don't know that Shallan is going to be capable of offering him the support he needs, and with his tendency to pull away, he will withdraw from her after being hurt. Lesser things have happened that caused couples to break apart. Edit: I just reread that and it came across odd to me. That part about my wife and I was simply a real-world example that I had readily at hand. Sorry if I sounded weird.

My thoughts as well. But since we haven't seen any textual evidence of this realization yet, I'm disinclined to think anyone has thought of this...yet. Certainly it would be quite possible for people to discover this, but we have a lot of out-of-world knowledge most of the characters don't have. I agree, mostly. I believe she is coming to grips with Pattern himself, but she is still parsing Pattern, the Spren, and Pattern, the Blade as two separate things. Her relationship with Pattern and her relationship with Adolin are the only things about her that I truly see as "getting better", though, and like you said, defining "getting over pain" is quite difficult. I don't view pain as gotten over simply because one is aware of it--I see it as forward momentum through that pain to the eventual understanding that lays beyond, e.g. "I understand that although my pain hurts, it was a necessary part of my experiences and has shaped who I am, and I am better for it." That is someone that, to me, has fully gotten over their pain, and right now I see Shallan still shying back from the pain rather than moving through it, which is why I say she hasn't begun getting over it yet. My best guess is that the Everstorm carried some kind of Investiture separate from the normal stormlight that was able to bridge the broken connection to their Identity...it's probably an RAFO like you said though.

During Shallan's first encounter with Mraize, there are some artifacts in the scene that are very clearly from other worlds (don't have WoR in front of me to tell you just what, maybe someone else can do that), plus Please, some one answer @Toaster Retribution Question. I wanna know too. I don't think it would be a far stretch for Ialai to suspect Adolin. Adolin was well-known by this point to be a firebrand and was also well-known to hate Sadeas for his role at the Tower in WoK. I've said this before, but it's possible--not likely, but possible--that in his efforts to ensure Dalinar was undermined, he and Ialai had worked up a contingency should he goad Adolin (or any of the Kholins) too far. Sadeas took particular interest in pushing Adolin's buttons, and I can't help feeling that that might have been an attempt to get at Dalinar--bring down the prized son and force Dalinar to reconsider his opposition. I'm inclined to think at this point he targeted Adolin specifically, knowing he could goad him into something rash...I don't know that he intended his own death, but the idea isn't far-fetched, and if Ialai was privy to this maneuvering (which she most likely was, considering how close they were), she could reasonably assume Sadeas pushed Adolin too far and is now working to undermine the Kholins and get her revenge at the same time. This is largely conjecture, however, and there's only bits and pieces of text to support it, so it's kind of your own choice what you believe. Edit: Dangit @SLNC, you beat me to the punch.

You are correct. The Everstorm was summoned by the Parshendi already in stormform, and the Stormfather brought an abnormally-timed highstorm during the Weeping in order to cleanse the Shattered Plains of the aftermath. Keep in mind that the Parshendi had captured stormspren as well prior to their conversion. They mentioned during the Eshonai segments of WoR that they had found a more reliable method of transformation during the storms by capturing spren within gems, taking those gems into the storm, and then attuning the proper rhythms. They weren't risking someone going into mateform or whatever by going out en masse into the storm and hoping to attract the stormspren. I think you might be along a good track, though. It's possible that the yellow Voidspren is trying to get the Parshment to Kholinar in anticipation of the next Everstorm strike, or perhaps through the calling of more of her kind of spren to spark a transformation into another form. I took this to mean that this was a Shin conqueror predating the Sunmaker. They mentioned Shin invasions in some of the earlier chapters.

I think she is being confronted by her pain more often, yes, but I don't think she's really facing it. She's just running from it whenever possible, whether that be through a persona, or alcohol, or losing herself in her studies. But yes, it is definitely coming up more often. It is indeed a complex topic. Mental illness is never easy. I don't think she wishes to be unhappy or in pain either--in fact, I think she desperately wants to be happy and pain-free, which is why she so desperately avoids thinking about her pain. And we've seen it in other media that when someone learns they have supernatural powers, they do get foolhardy and think "I'm invincible!" to a degree. I don't know. Maybe you're right and she will connect the dots between her resilience and Jasnah possibly surviving, but I just don't think she's made that connection yet.

@king of nowhere I just read your signature: This is great. I'm laughing so hard I have tears in my eyes.

Sorry for the mutli-part quote, kari. I just wanted to address each point individually. Exactly. We don't know how she spends her time, but we do know she's been avoiding other responsibilities in favor of practicing her lightweaving (Sebarial confirms that she hasn't worked on his ledgers in weeks). We also know that she has the tendency to avoid and/or sidestep painful thoughts unless she is confronted about them in a way that she cannot just run away from. While quantitatively she may have had enough time to think about Jasnah, I doubt she's allowed herself enough time to really analyze the boat situation just yet. She had ample opportunity to consider this upon reaching the Shattered Plains, yet she confirms to Navani that she saw Jasnah dead. Yes. Shallan saw Jasnah literally take a knife through the heart and not survive. That's what Shallan saw. Perhaps as a proto-Radiant Jasnah might have survived, but Shallan thinks she saw Jasnah's corpse (dead body). So it would be a stretch for Shallan, who believes Jasnah's death is as good as confirmed, to suddenly jump to the conclusion that Jasnah might not be dead simply because she was stabbed with a knife. Also note she says "stabbed through the chest," she does not say "stabbed through the heart." Being stabbed through the heart is instantly fatal. I don't know that even stormlight could heal that quickly enough, as the Jasnah teaser a while back mentions. Jasnah was seconds from death when Ivory forcibly pulled her into the cognitive realm. Being stabbed through the chest, however, could mean a lung wound, could mean the middle of the ribcage, could mean just below the heart--there's enough variance there that, depending on the location and copious amounts of stormlight, she could survive. I also think Shallan is being a little foolhardy with respect to her Radiantness, and part of that may be blustering for the simple reason of keeping Adolin from worrying about her safety. Shallan is a young girl from a rural Veden house--she's used to being on her own and wandering as she pleases, which is why she's uncomfortable with bodyguards except in the most regal circumstances (e.g. introducing herself to the Alethi court). I agree with you on this point. I think Jasnah's death could definitely be an addition to the other pain she is going through, and there's certainly some survivor's guilt as well, but this is more of a reason that Shallan wouldn't think about it. It's pain. Shallan avoids pain unless absolutely necessary--or unless she's drunk and personifying Veil. If you're inferring the Ghostbloods...doubtful, for reasons I've already explained. If you're inferring someone else...maybe. First off, I would be very surprised to see Shallan summon her Patternblade for a demonstration. She hates the blade, and wants to touch it as little as possible. She has a panic attack just thinking about summoning it. Maybe I'd concede that if she became Radiant instead, but I don't know that politics are Radiant's strongsuit here. As far as going on the offensive against Ialai, as of right now there's no reason for her to. She is there as moral support, and Ialai is very intelligent and clever. And as you said, Mraize's presence there is dangerous for Shallan, not the least of which because she risks the exposure of her connection to the Ghostbloods to Adolin and his family. Again, it's doubtful Mraize would make a move against Shallan--he considers her one of them now, and the Ghostbloods care for their own.

You ignore the fact that Kaladin is working with said light-eyes. And I respectfully disagree. Yes, he is starting to empathize with the parshmen, yes he is starting to care for them, but he also has his bridgemen on the oher side whom he has effectively sworn to protect as well. And he’s sworn to protect and defend Dalinar. Also setting his hatred of Amaram (which he is getting over) and his disdain for light-eyes (which I wouldnt call hate, and he is also getting over), Kaladin is not a hateful person by nature. He is caring and empathetic, and by its very nature you cannot be empathetic and hateful of that which you empathize. And we saw at the end of WoR and beginning of Oathbringer that Kal is starting to empathize with more than just his own people. Im sorry, but I just cant see him becoming Odiums champion. Its too convoluted.

I think it is becoming increasingly more obvious that Kaladin will be Odium's champion, and it seems the most exciting possible direction that the story can turn from my perspective. Uhh...Odium's shard isn't rage. It's hatred. Odium is latin for hatred, so Kaladin driven to rage for the sake of protection doesn't mean that he will be Odium's champion. If you're just going off of the pure emotion related to a Shard, then Adolin or Shallan would even be a better candidate than Kaladin at this moment. He's said before that in order to kill he had to think of things in terms of "us" and "them". We see that ability to differentiate corroding, as he comes to empathize and care for the parshmen. That's a far cry from becoming the fighting embodiment of hatred. I will check it out. Thanks for the clarification, it was driving me bonkers.