Inquisitor #5

Yep Nope In the same way that healing can't seal the cracks in your soul that let Investiture in, it wouldn't be able to restore the Spiritweb's original shape. Savantism changes the Spiritweb, but it doesn't register as "damage," similar to how it's not (directly) damage when excercise affects your physiology. Or possibly more like ritualistic skull deformation an the like. Or inbetween those points. Per this WoB (spoilered for length): Healing doesn't really have an effect on Savantism. And since healing (generally) acts by aligning the Physical with the Spiritual, as filtered through the Cognitive, and the problem is that the Spiritweb has changed from repeated infusions of Investiture, so the healing would neither fix the Physical side effects or the Spiritual "deformation." I imagine it's similar to being a Sliver, which Brandon has described as being like how a ballon that has been inflated stays stretched if deflated, but with your soul, and, in the case of Savantism, on a much smaller scale. Brandon has also alternatively described Savantism as warping the soul and opening the cracks in the soul more. I'd think if anything can "purge" Savantism from your Spiritweb, other than the known Shardic intervention, would be aluminium and (possibly) chromium allomancy: But that depends on what "healing the Spiritweb" means and what the nature of Savantism is. If Savantism doesn't leave residual Investiture in your Spiritweb, you probably couldn't purge it via these methods. Interestingly enough, Savantism is also described as being like an unchecked spren bond: And per an earlier WoB, the reason why Radiants are "protected" is not because of healing. If healing doesn't oust the spren from the Spiritweb, it probably can't oust Savantism. It is of course possible that if you know what you are doing and have enough Investiture, you could replicate however a Shard can undo Savantism, but that is probably something that requires some mental trick, Intent or both. I'm not so sure about that, once the Spiritweb has been warped, it might stay that "shape" until further warping. So it might just regrow in the same "shape." If I'm not mistaken, the time clause on healing is because of the healing filtering through the Cognitive, which I'm not sure would happen when healing the Spiritweb. Or if this is about healing away the Physical consequences, I could maybe see that being the case, though you'd still be working from a warped Spiritweb. I want to quibble the "purposefully" here, I don't think that you need to specifically try to become a Savant, though of course actively trying would make it happen faster, assuming that you can freely use your powers. You'd warp your soul faster if you were deliberately shooting for it, but I don't think Spook was trying to become a Savant. But of course in doesn't really happen to people who use their powers more sparingly. Brandon has also said, both in world and in WoB, that some people become Savants without noticing, which wouldn't be possible if it required Intent. ¤_¤

Is that more reasonable than a trading post? If the Shin wanted to trade or tons of traders arrived, wouldn't they have trading infrastructure? As Frustration has noted, Taravangian has access to a Herald. He also managed to basically predict the future by sheer brainpower, so if he barely know anything, what does that say about the secrecy of the Shin? I mean, China was fine with trading for silver while outsiders weren't allowed in. The fact that they are willing to trade doesn't mean they seek out trade, but why look a gift horse in the mouth? These two statements don't seem incongruous to you? Only farms are restricted and most of Shinovar is farms. If everything except the edges is restricted to outsiders, then those parts being open to anyone is fairly meaningless. Yes, that's what it seems like, but we also know so little of the Shin. I'm sure they could have some fun loopholes, like that martial arts is fine, but weapons aren't. We also know that Szeth thinks that the Stone shamans would retrieve his Blade once he died. Given that he's likely to die outside of Shinovar, it's a distinct possiblity that they'd have to walk on stone, which is forbidden. And given the value of Blades on Roshar, they would have to take the Blade from a potential Shardbearer, so they'd need something to give them an edge against a Shardblade (and potentially Plate), like their own Blade. And Szeth seems certain that his Blade will be retrieved. So the Stone shamans seem to be allowed to bend/break some of the rules already. Here are all the instances of "exile," "Shinovar" and "warrior" in the Truthless article: I can't see the bit you mentioned. In addition, as usual, a fan-wiki (or things like Wikipedia) is not 100% reliable, misunderstandings and misinterpretations easily get taken as fact. (Compare the WoB database Arcanum, where there are usually links to, for instance, Reddit posts, so things can be read in their original context, or actual audio recordings, so you can hear Brandon talk.) In that case, that easily explains why no rumours of Surgebinding would have escaped Shinovar. If they can't touch the Blades, they can't bond them, and then they can't use Surgebinding. Given how the Stone shamans seem to be able to break the rules, I'd say that's not improbable. It's not unreasonable to me that politically important people, like the religious leadership, would have a different set of rules. Corruption is one heck of a drug. I can't recall him having weapons training outside of his Blade, do you have a quote on that? ¤_¤

I mean, she consistently downplays her own achievments and thinks about how she just enables other people to make advances. She's got major impostor syndrome and doesn't think she's worthy of being called a scholar because of it. And judging from earlier books, a scholar sits somewhere between a natural philosopher and proper scientist. If you're talking about the fabrials, we have no evidence that they kill or even harm the spren. Other than possible psychological harm from being trapped. That's fair, even if I disagree in part. But the threat obviously influenced the Sibling's choice. We also know that a Radiant can be a bad fit for their order, see Venli. Journey before Destination. Basically nobody starts out a perfect example of their order, the journey is more poignant that way and can reflect their growth. I mean, back in Way of Kings, Shallan rattles off her schooling to Jasnah, and she's from a backwater. Obviously Vorin noblewomen are supposed to have a certain level of schooling. Also, is it that hard to believe that Jasnah's mother is also intelligent? Also also, paired fabrials already do something like quantum entanglement at a macro level, so she might have had a leg up. Though I can't recall what exactly she does that could be called quantum physics. I think that's kind of the point, the restrictions are falling away, the old rules don't apply and we're in uncharted territory with incredible and dangerous powers. It might also be a bit of a thing with how Dalinar keeps overruling the Stormfather, he might be straining the bond or playing with forces he can't begin to comprehend. She's wearing a mask pretty much all the time, so we're not used to seeing the overworked woman who tried desperately to save the world, only to come back to everything overturned and all the things she was working for snatched out from under her. Ehh, I don't see that kind of ambition in her at all. And I highly doubt that Odium's Vessel would die again in short order. Before I start talking about this I want to make clear that I am not a system, so I will defer to any systems who wish to comment on the topic or correct me. That said, having read some discourse and statements from actual systems, I was hoping throughout the book that Formless wasn't the killer/spy, as IIRC the "evil alter" is a common media trope and I was hoping that Brandon's wish to represent things like neurodivergence in his books well, as well as sensitivity readers, would make him not take that path. Though I do think how you reacted is exactly how Brandon wanted you to react. Formless is set up as suspicious, but it's misdirection. And to be fair, Shallan denies that Formless is real, and that turns out to be true. Huh, I found the foreshadowing of that so heavy-handed that I basically immediately thought that was the case. And I didn't even notice her "what if Adolin and Pattern knew the real her, what she'd done" bit from part one when I first read it. Seeing as Pattern has no problem with her killing her parents or being a (prospective) Ghostblood, it'd have to be something that he'd find bad, at least in her mind. I mean, when she recalls it, she thinks something like "truths spoken with the solemness of a child." The Cryptics only seem to care that the Truth be important to you, not that it exemplifies some lofty ideal. Also, Tien was on his way to bonding a Cryptic as well, soo... Uhm, did we read the same scene? She was an alter that Shallan created to protect herself. She decided that Shallan no longer needed that protection and reintegrated. (Which I've seen some systems have negative opinions on and some not.) Yes You are aware they are married? And seem to love eachother? And that he's Highprince and how much of a scandal that would be? We also see that he does think for himself, it's not like Shallan put him up to snapping a Dalinar. Also, even if she travelled the world(s) without him, that wouldn't necessitate a breaking of their relationship. I also don't know when he has just done what she wants. He was made ambassador, not her, for instance. In addition, Vorin couples are very much a unit, we've heard remarks about how someone should get married so that he'd have a proper scribe. Shallan also has a lot of trauma to work through, aknowledging it is good, but you're not done with it just because of that. And seeing as therapy was basically invented, err, now, she doesn't have too much help available. Some people are just differently able. My own grab bag of diagnoses makes me unable to work a full 8 hour day, for instance. Not in that I couldn't do it, but I couldn't be functional if I did. And Shallan might be scarred by her past forever, just like Kaladin might always have PTSD. Given her ability to keep going as is, I'd think that she'd be highly functional if she managed to process her traumas in a healthy way. Also, I should note that I'm one of those people who never disliked Shallan. The closest was on my initial read of Way of Kings, when I found her chapters a boring break from the action at the Shattered Plains. I can definitely see this being the case for people. Personally I loved the magic mechanics stuff, but then again, that is my favourite parts of these books. It is nice to get an insight into the Fused, their powers, administration, engineering, etc. To me her conflict comes from the interplay of her cowardice, her ego and her desire for freedom from the entire war, as well as her growing a conscience for all that she's done. She's a terribly flawed person having done terrible things, but she's trying to be better. Also, keep in mind that just like Navani and the Sibling and Hoid and Design, Venli and Timbre was a bond of desperation. But hey, to each their own. What listener powers? Or is that listener's? I'm not sure what this means. To be fair, it quickly turns into the Navani show, which, while highly enjoyable, isn't what the major focus of the Willshaper book should be. Seeing how much Rayse blustered about taking back power from the Fused and how alive Leshwi and co are, seems like it was mostly bluster. That is entirely fair. Personally the scene when Kaladin gets back to his rooms and, IIRC, collapses against the door, hit like a ton of bricks. We know from the scene where Lirin decides that Kaladin'll be a surgeon IIRC, that that still counts as protecting. So therapy would probably also count under that. And seeing as Kaladin's struggle from book 1 has been that he can't let go, it fits very well. It also fits with how he knows the words, essentially being at the fourth, but is unwilling to admit what they stand for. Isn't he just talking to the Stormfather to get intel on Urithiru? Then the Stormfather says that Kaladin jumped, Dalinar asks to see it and then insists he grant Kaladin more time. Or do I entirely misremember? If so, the convenience is more that that entire sequence happens during a highstorm. But media is full of conveniences, so it's not that big a deal if there are a few. I really hope neither of these are true, for one, giving the character with depression a heroic death seems... iffy. For the other, I feel like it's too much of a retread of Mistborn, which would be boring. Pretty sure nothing will change unless the Vessel makes conscious alterations. I mean, he spent something like seven years with the mindset that he had to do basically anything the holder of his Oathstone said, but that he was still responsible for actions he was comitting on their behalf. Then he started questioning his place in the world after his first encounter with Kaladin, then, once he comes to terms with that he was never Truthless, he thinks he could have stopped at any time, leading to him giving up his life at the end of Words of Radiance. Then Nale ressurects him against his will and recruits him. Then after spending time with Nale's cult and the unhinged Herald himself, they all choose to follow the singers. Then he sees Ishar with his father's Blade and gets told that his people apparently betrayed their principles (handing the Honorblade back) and that his father is dead. And over the course of the books he also sees a lot of people dead at his hands, and there's something wrong with you if that doesn't affect you. He already snaps twice towards the end of Words of Radiance, once when he decides to kill Adolin and once when he screams his lungs out about being named Truthless unfairly. Add to that that he's seen smart Taravangian and that he's apparently really gotten under Szeth's skin and he's even more off his rocker than usual when they interact. So no, probably not always this unhinged, but definitely so now. Might just be most people not interacting with him in any meaningful capacity, as well as the Radiants returning making him less of an inexplicable abstract murder machine. Add to that that he seems content to sit pretty in prison and the end of the world happening outside, and he might not be the kind of concern he once was. Of the Ghostbloods specifically, yep, Thaidakar is Kelsier. I don't think the people who are fine with murder and putting children in cages will turn out to be misunderstood, personally. Kelsier was also only a hero by context, the Final Empire was just that bad. Kelsier enjoyed his work and justified killing of skaa who worked for the Lord Ruler as killing traitors. Kelsier wanted to kill a member of the rebellion as a show of power. He can't even answer the question of wether he did what he did for the skaa or for himself. And even if all they do is in service of a noble goal, I don't think the ends justify the means. Given Kelsier's reaction to supposed gods, I highly doubt it. They also wouldn't know what it was like back then. I think that Mraize is being truthful, even if he's not telling the whole truth, when he says power. Control of the most accessible and plentiful source of Investiture would be an incredible bargaining chip. I definitely think they're bad news for Roshar, I'm pretty sure they'd be fine if the entire planet burned as long as the highstorms keep blowing and (possibly) the spren exist. So yeah. That's my take. ¤_¤

You are right that others come seeking trade: -WoK, interlude I-4 However, this tells us nothing about how many these others are. We do possibly get something of a hint earlier in the same interlude however: -WoK, interlude I-4 This tells us that this is not a major trade route, or even one that an apprentice merchant was really aware of, which I'd argue would be in her interest to have educated herself about. The fact that the trade takes place in a meadow is, to me, also indicative of how little outsiders are trusted. You'd expect trade to happen at a market or port, not a meadow where there's not much of anything. The same interlude also mentions farming villages, and that outsiders aren't allowed there, but you'd think that a trading post of some sort might exist outside the view of any farms. The fact that there isn't trading infrastructure would seem to imply that either they don't really trade, or they don't want to trade. And yet Vstim trades in a meadow? We also see over the course of the books that no-one really knows what the heck is happening in Shinovar, with the most knowledge known to be possessed by an outsider is Taravangian knowing the exact specification of an oathstone. They refuse the invitation to the coalition and basically seem content being Switzerland by way of isolationist Japan. We also see that the caravan is not too far into Shinovar: -WoK, interlude I-4 I'm not so sure this is true, while yes, we do get to know this: -WoK, interlude I-4 However, going by this: -WoK, interlude I-4 As well as Szeth calling Nale "Nin-son-God" might imply that there are different rules at play regarding the Honorblades. And if you, like me, think the Stone shamanate are less than benevolent, it might simply be a case of different rules for different people, just like rich/famous people are often given more lenient sentences for crimes IRL. Or it could be a little of both, the Honorblades being "holy" or "special" or somesuch and the Stone shamanate being corrupt or not held to the same standards as the rest of society. There's also this WoB: The Shin see themselves as having a privileged reference frame, they think they know what happened, that might also play into having special rules for the Honorblades. I wish to highlight something from an earlier quote, "They may be a little too stable. The world is changing outside, but the Shin seem determined to remain the same." They shun outside influences pretty hard I'd say. And I'd say that basically everything we see is that no-one really knows what's happening in Shinovar. - both Oathbringer, chapter 24 -Oathbringer, chapter 122 They don't seem to communicate with outsiders unprompted, and even Taravangian doesn't seem to know much about them. In addition, Bandon describes them as xenophobic, at least historically, and there's not exactly much evidence that this isn't true in the present day. I think RoW explicitly contradicts that: -RoW, chapter 111 Neturo held Ishar's Blade, it doesn't seem plausible that he did that without ever touching it. If nothing else, he'd presumably need to do that to bond it, and how could he ever have summoned it without touching it. We also know that Szeth has trained with all the Surges, which would require the Bondsmith Blade, as the Stoneward Blade was unavailable. Did Neturo summon it without touching it and Szeth catch it in midair? I don't think we can say that for certain, we only have one data point. Szeth isn't allowed in the Valley of Truth, IIRC, but unless that refers to all of Shinovar, Truthless need not be exiled. Fair, fair. I suppose it could be both, in the same way that all Investiture belongs to a Shard, the ideas might be fundamental, but retroactively assigned to Shards. And my gut feeling is yes. If the Fused are Surgebinding, it should affect them too. It would be really nice to see how much is different because they're singers (closer to the Rhythms), how much is different because they are Fused, how much is different because of compounded experience, how much is different because they align with Odium's Rhythms and how much is different because they seem to "live" their Surge (which may or may not be the same as being Fused.) IMO, this is the likeliest option. I could see either of these being the case too, yeah. Fair enough. It still feels different somehow. I suppose it's the fact that she's leaking mist like a Radiant leaking Light, but it's not noticably going into her Push, for instance. But yeah, for how ridiculous the Metallic Arts can get output-wise, they seem to use very little Investiture to do it all. Now there's a thought, given how relatively inefficient Surgebinding seems, what with Radiants leaking Investiture as standard, what would happen if the Ghostbloods actually managed to export Light and were able to hack it into the Metallic Arts? That seems like a recipe for something quite spectacular. Or it just dissipates too fast to do much without recharging, though possibly quite the thing while you have it. Yeah, they are probably WAY more Investiture than I realised. I see. I suppose that makes sense. I'm not one to talk as I think that singers are "naturials," basically. It could be that the interplay between the fauna and the spren in general can be classified as such. Though I of course think that it all originates in the Surges in the end. Hmm, nooo, I don't think I do, actually. I've never given much thought to summoning Shardblades, but I don't think I've ever thought of it as Surgebinding. And if manifesting your spren as a physical object, then manifesting their cousin-spren also isn't. Both are the same thing, but they are not Surgebinding. The Radiant ability to infuse things with Light I'd also categorise as separate from Surgebinding. I'd also not categorise moving Breath around (the standard "my Breath to yours") as Awakening or ingesting lerasium as allomancy. The Radiant/spren interaction is (probably) a function of the Radiant bond and the main spren and Radiant "blending" together, but the "perks" of the tipping points are not Surgebinding. I suppose my main disagreement would probably be calling it a magic system. Oh! Then again, it could be a cheat! If the fauna and spren are a manifestation of the same thing as fabrials, just one happening naturally and the other artificially, then it's possible that the Radiant bond, in the spectrum between tipping point three and four, allows for a bond of that nature to be leapfrogged to the Radiant. Kaladin commanding windspren is somewhat similar to the situation with Rysn and the luckspren at the Reshi Isles. I think this may be the same basic thing. Uh-huh... I don't like this. That feels like saying that physics can be debated. Like, if it exists it has rules. Just because we are at times mistaken about what the rules are, doesn't mean that they don't exist. Anyway... Yes, I second this. Yeah, I suppose they are. In that case it's of course convenient if everyone agrees on the same definitions. ¤_¤

Ouch, that sucks. I know it saves a draft of what you were writing on mobile, but I assume not on desktop then? (Very convenient if, like me, you don't have the energy to write your entire post in one go.) That is some dedication there. Fair, fair. I definitely don't think it has to be Shardic in nature, but I don't think if it would be that strange if it was. Heh, I hadn't noticed that. I think I was too focused on what idea they are to even start considering that. Sounds fair. Fair enough. Makes me wonder if the restrictions against microkinesis have a: fallen away, and b: restricted the Fused as well. Of course, if you subscribe to the idea that the reason for BAM's new powers was Honor's restrictions falling away things get more complicated. Then again, Honor imposing rules on something wouldn't be that weird, even if Raboniel is wrong about Surges being of Honor and Cultivation. And if Voidbinding is the manipulation of the same underlying Surges in a different way, it makes sense if messing with the Surge would mess with both Surge- and Voidbinding. Heh, it's interesting to see your own blind spots. I love magic mechanics and I'd totally missed that. Surgebinding really seems to be missing a step there... Allomancy has power source, key and output. As does AonDor. But Surgebinding seems to be all power source and output. In addition, Surgebinders/Radiants seem able to do several... weird things, like being able to move Light around without having to use it for a power. It's not like an allomancer can just infuse an object with mist. Surgebinders can also reclaim Light from their... err... Surgebindings? And sure, Awakeners can also reclaim their Investiture, but that one is not known to evaporate as easily as Stormlight. That's also an interesting thing, the Light stays as Light. What I mean is that Windrunner Lashings infuse things with Light, Lightweaver illusions are made of Light, etc. While all of (standard) allomancy is the power of Preservation, it's not like it manifests nebulous mist tendrils or anything, the power manifests as discrete abilities, while Surgebinding basically seems to chuck almost raw Investiture at the problem until it does what they want. Makes me wonder how Investiture efficient Radiants are. I'd hazard not very, but on Roshar that's not much of a problem. It's also funny to see how Surgebinding looks so raw and untamed next to allomancy, which I think is based on a cosmere fundamental. Also that Surgebinding seems so primal when it's heavily associated with Mr Rules himself. Hmm I think Surgebinding is broader than that, both luckspren messing with gravity (which is possibly due to a bond, I'll grant) and windspren sticking things together I think go there. But yes, a lot more primal. Yeah, the more I think about it, the less I like it. If the bond worked like that Stormlight shouldn't be incomplete to the Sibling, I think. I don't think it's entirely a coincidence that Honor ended up on the planet where bonds are a daily thing, but that doesn't mean that the mechanism of the bonds belongs to him. Seeing as we know that Investiture across the cosmere got assigned to the Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered, I guess some of the Vessels might have naturally gravitated to places that "belonged" to them. I also assume that the singers (and probably local fauna in general) have always been able to bond spren, that they were made that way by Adonalsium, it seems too fundamental to them to me to be otherwise. The Radiant bond is probably a derivation of the general Rosharan Nahel bond, a product of Connection. Non voidspren exist on the spectrum between Honor and Cultivation. Almost any Radiant could probably be fueled by Lifelight as well as Stormlight, as the nature of the spren is both, though just as the listener farming method, some might be more compatible with one flavour of Light than the other. (Might also make the Bondsmiths more interchangable, historically at least, if they can all power Radiants and not just the one that provides Stormlight.) On the other side of things Voidlight can probably not be used for the farming trick, not without Enlightened lifespren and a different Rhythm, as the normal spren of Roshar have no Connection to Odium. If the Radiant bond and Nahel bond are also using the same mechanism, that also explains Venli being able to use Voidlight for her Surgebinding, in a "you got your Connection in my Connection" kinda way. As long as there is a (strong enough?) Connection to a Shard, their Investiture can be used as fuel, so the Radiant bond seemingly doesn't facilitate the use of particular Investiture. If you bonded a hypothetical Scadrian mistspren (heh) you wouldn't be Connected to Honor or Cultivation, so you couldn't use the Rosharan Lights, but you could probably use Scadrian mist. Conjecturally this also means that Enlightened Radiant can use all three pure Lights, assuming that the Enlightened spren's Connection hasn't been too messed up by the process. Well, that got long, hopefully I didn't lose any important thoughts along the way. Yeah, it can't all be in the power. Thinking about it, I think it has to be a combination of multiple things. The essence of allomancy is Preservation, for instance. That has to be part of it, I think. But allomancy is accessing the power of Preservation, through metals, as discrete powers. Or something like that. Atium confuses things. Also possibly hemalurgy. And here the fact that Surgebinding seems to be missing a step really makes it harder to find a good definition. The easy definition would be something like: wielding the Rosharan concept of the fundamental forces, through the lens of Honor and Cultivation. But I don't think I can confidently stand by that and it makes Fused Surgebinding a separate system... This just in, Surgebinding is hecka weird. Hemalurgy I think might be fairly simple: the theft of an attribute, through metal piercing the body in specific places, done by Intent and facilitated by the power of Ruin, and the granting of that same attribute to another by piercing their body in specific places with that same metal. And the fact that that is a simple definition might be saying something... Yeah, it simply can't be by one blanket thing. Ah well. Ah, yeah, fair enough. Well, if it walks like a chicken and quacks like a chicken, it's possibly an Aviar. Until proven otherwise, I think categorising them as the same thing makes sense. ¤_¤

For one, it's not like the rest of Roshar, outside the Skybreakers, would even know that they were Surgebinding, let alone that the Honorblades were the source. Also, they definitely used them in the past: And as Frustration has noted, they could be using them openly within Shinovar and no stonewalker would be any the wiser. I think this is partly true, though given Szeth's proficiency wity Jezrien's Blade, I do think the training given to the appointed/chosen bearer of a certain Blade with said Blade is rather extensive. We also know that Szeth has done ice skating as an Abrasion excercise, so it's not improbable that the people carrying the Honorblades were given enough training to be competent with all of them, possibly in case another carrier died. I do think that the Blades are the territory of the Stone Shamanate however, and probably don't see extensive use. The famously isolationist Shin don't have people Soulcasting metal daily, but rather trade with outsiders? So I do think there's some merit to the idea that they're kept, if not secret, at least closely guarded by the Stone Shamans. Obviously with some rules we don't know, as Szeth got to keep his Blade as Truthless. I'd argue that cojoiners don't have much to do with flamespren, we even know that other spren can be used, but flamespren are easiest to work with. Oh, I'm not saying that the fabrial function has to be unrelated, but I don't think it has to be directly related. Then again, it might be mostly an issue of not having accurate names for the kinds of spren. I was paging through WoK recently, I thought there was a discussion of the Surges in there, and I noticed one of Shallan's illustrations. The illustration of the skyeel has a note musing on the spren surrounding it, Shallan can't ID the spren but notes that the sailors call them "luckspren." It wouldn't surprise me if several spren have gotten inaccurate colloquial names, not indicative of their nature. (My personal theory is that they are "luckspren" from incidents similar to what happened with Rysn, people surviving falls that would be certain death and such.) Hmm, I suppose so. That definitely makes me lean more towards the spren having names that aren't indicative of their nature in all cases. It would be convenient to get a deeper look at both fabrials and AonDor, to spot if there are more paralells. I think it safe to say that Investiture reacting to metal is a fundamental of the cosmere, possibly related to how it is in the nature of Investiture to coalesce into metal. I also think that, based on how the metals affect fabrials, that allomancy is very similar to the base interaction between metal and Investiture, which IMO makes sense for a system emanating from Preservation. We also know that colour is important, both from WoBs and the tidbit that colour is like taste to a spren, and I'm prepared to peg the interaction between colour and Investiture as another cosmere fundamental. Another fundamental is probably Investiture interacting with various crystal structures, being storable in the Rosharan polestones, among others. Beyond the Rosharan Lights, we know from a WoB that you could finagle the Mists into a gem, and the Ire Shade detector most probably works off the Dor. This one might be less of a fundamental and more of an interaction between colour and metal interacting with Investiture (in the sense that specific colours and molecular stuctures having an effect on Investiture.) Yet another seeming fundamental is that certain concepts affect Investiture in regular ways across different systems, as we see with logicspren and Aon Ene, IIRC. I would assume that there're others, as just logic and debate seems to be weirdly limited, possibly one fundamental idea per Shard, or something. Also, to be clear, I don't think these are fundamental in the sense that they are required, but that they will apply consistently across several systems if applied to them. Hmm... OK, that makes sense. I do wonder how that relationship tracks when applied across all the Radiant spren. Like, how is blood tied to Cryptics? (I mean, they represent physics. I suppose you clould see them as the metaphorical blood of the universe, but I'm not very partial to that.) Fair, fair. I do think they are of the Surges, rather than being pure Surges. Or possibly being derived versions of the Surges. Just like real life physics have non-fundamental forces derived from fundamental ones. That makes perfect sense, given my interpretation. I think. I can see that having merit. I can once again bemoan the terminology here, as we really need more accurate ways of talking about this. I do agree that they can't plug into the Radiant bond, but can plug into the Nahel bond. Hmm I'd say that the essence of the oath is necessary, while the words are not. I can see that, though I'm not sure how accurate it is, given the oath progression of the Windrunners. Funny thing is that the order with the most unstructured oaths, the Lightweavers, are a perfect fit for this idea. Cryptics are the spren of physics and I can think of few things truer than that. Circling back to the Windrunners, it may of course be a representation of the spren becoming more flexible, more human over time as well. Second and Third Ideal are very spren-like, a blanket idea of protection, while Fourth is more flexible. Compare how the Stormfather says he can understand the Heralds failing now, as opposed to just judging them when they walked away. The intentions and identities (possibly capitalized, possibly not) aligning and becoming one greater whole that represents both. Which is I think why it requires both a sapient spren and sapient creature, it's something they both have to actively choose and work towards. (Interestingly, when Teft summons Phendorana at the end, it says "He felt something from Phendorana. A harmony between them.", which I feel lines up with that idea.) Hmm, interesting. Makes me wonder what the Rhythm of Humanity is. That makes perfect sense, yes. With how Kaladin has been described as basically being at the Fourth, knowing the Words and all, just not willing to accept it, I don't think there's much room for disagreement. Hmm, yes, I can see that. It's of course possible that the Oaths are more necessary than at the inception of the Radiants, as the spren seem to think they're required, which might make them more required in itself. See Syl's imploring Kaladin to speak the Words and the Sibling saying that Navani has to swear to unite instead of divide. I also feel like the Oaths have to have some more relevance, Kaladin acting counter to them drains his power in WoR and, well, the whole Recreance business. Also the idea of Ishar's precepts and laws, which would fit neatly into the way the Oaths restrain certain manifestations of Surgebinding. (Then again, Lightweavers have access to Transformation and no Oath checks, soooo...) OK, but are the hungerspren still hungerspren? Are they starvationspren? I wish we had more information here, as it feels like we're grasping at almost nothing. Makes one wonder what the heck was worse than the freaking Recreance. I also got the impression that the True spren had been told to not bond singers, but that might have been me reading too much into it or misinterpreting where that came from. (Shardic vs societal) Fair, fair. I suppose it's easy to ping each system as categorically belonging to Shards directly. However, we do know that Honor restricted Surgebinding in several ways, so it can't be wholly outside his influence. That is a really neat observation and I love it. Fair, fair. I definitely think the Nahel bond is a product of Honor, but the mechanics of the Radiants are of both. I can see that being the case. That also helps explain how "Futurewatchers" can still get Blades, they might not have formalised Oaths, but the bondmates can still strive for mutual understanding. How do you define access method? I'm not sure if you mean fuel source or what grants the ability. I'd personally say that the primary definer is power or nature. An attractor fabrial attuned to Foil isn't iron allomancy, no matter how similar it is, even if it's accessing the same fundamentals. The more I think about this, the more complicated it gets however. I don't think it can be defined by fuel source, the Fused Surgebind, Venli Surgebinds when using Voidlight, Surgebinding fueled by Breath and Awakening fueled by Stormlight would still fundamentally be Surgebinding and Awakening. Just like a theoretical Nahel bond to everone's favourite ghost-slash-cult-leader might grant Stormlight-fueled allomancy. The Nahel bond, as I concieve it, is simply a plug'n'play mechanism, allowing Cognitive entities into spiritwebs. It grants access to power in line with the nature of the entity, and the ability to fuel said power using Stormlight (in most cases... Lift... ), presumably by being Connected to Honor, as Connection to Odium makes it possible to substitute Stormlight with Voidlight. In my mind accessing power through a Nahel bond in no way changes the base nature of the power itself, though it possibly gets interpreted through the structure of the Nahel bond. (Blade, Plate, tipping points of power, mutual growth) In a similar vein (heh) allomancy and feruchemy are still allomancy and feruchemy when granted by spikes and medallions. So I'm happy to say Renarin's abilities are 100% Voidbinding, the fact that he fuels them with Stormlight and accesses them through the Nahel bond in no way makes them not Voidbinding. And I just realised that I wrote Nahel bond rather than Radiant bond in this entire section... I guess my answer is that the powers define the system then. Which leads to a very unsightly escape clause having to enter my idea that Surgebinding and Voidbinding being different expressions of the same principles (the Surges), as it makes the definition of Surgebinding "these ten very variable and fluid powers, but like, only in these ways." Anyway... I'm very tempted to say "yes, or possibly no," but by my own definitions it'd be feruchemy. Hard agree. I can believe that. I'm not 100% sold on the violence part, but otherwise. I also think that Voidbinding and the powers of the Unmade are probably one and the same, though that is based in a lot of conjecture. ¤_¤

Yeah, that's fair. I suppose Endowment being fickle doesn't mean that she would engage in no forward planning. She might not have intended for Nightblood to end up on Roshar naturally, but it being there isn't detrimental to her plans, as it was always intended to be an anti-Rayse weapon. I suppose she thinks a lot like Taravangian then, make sure that no matter the outcome you're satisfied and all that. I like this line of thinking, makes Edgli come off as smartly working around the inherent restrictions of Endowment and good at lateral thinking. Oh, she's definitely not breaking any binding agreement from her point of view, IMO. That would be far too great a risk and who knows if subsequent violations would lead to further damage. There's also something darkly amusing to her behaving kind of like the US/USSR during the Cold War, she just enables other people to fight for her interests and is definitely not moving against other Shards. Casts her in a way darker light. Kalak being close to finding it is very different from him knowing how to do it. And that in turn is removed from other people generally, and Hoid specifically, knowing how to do it. I don't think it reasonable to assume that Hoid knows how to do it at the end of RoW. So at SA present I don't find the assertion that he'd have to give up his Radiance one way or another to get away from Greater Roshar to be improbable. Theoretically possible, yes, known to Hoid, probably not. Oh, I don't think getting to Shadesmar would be the problem, the problem would be if the Fused still held power in places like Celebrant. Remember that Hoid remarks that if he was spotted Rayse would tear Kholinar down stone-by-stone to find him, or something like that, at the end of Oathbringer. Presumably any Fused stationed in Shadesmar would also know to look for him. Thus Worldhopping is a more uncertain prospect than usual. I would assume that she's still tied to it, even if it's not tied to her. It wouldn't sit right with me if something that seems to be a fundamental rule for Shards had such a major exception. He obviously wasn't taking up the whole Shard in that moment, as he's still walking around on Roshar. I also feel like, if nothing else, Taravangian should have noticed another power just lying around when he Ascended if Honor had been reformed. Or Rayse should have dropped some hint that he had to re-Splinter Honor, or somesuch. That could even work as another reason he was so weakened in RoW. And in any case, even if that was a method by which a Shard can be restored, we have no confirmation of it doing so. Just like spren leaving Roshar, it's a theoretical possibility that we have no confirmed examples of or mechanics for. Oh, it's not, but she's at least feigning openness to Taravangian, while she was presumably scheming entirely behind Rayse's back. Oh, I don't think that she will be a villain, just that she could be a villain. I suppose that's true, yeah. Though how much of an alliance it is when you're fully intending to undermine the other party is up for debate. Hmm I feel that if the foremost known expert on Awakening theory hasn't figured it out with Stormlight, Azure's Blade is unlikely to have been made with another Shard's Investiture. 110% agree. I think this is just Azure's Blade's version of Nightblood's affinity to people who have wielded it, or something like that. Huh, not at all, then again I've not really gotten into the MCU or the comics. I also feel like letting a random spren handle the Blade would be very irresponisible if there was any risk associated with being found "unworthy" or even just a risk of offending the spren. If either of those was the case, it would jeopardise her goals. As a sidenote, seeing "Mjölir" is really odd to me, I'm so used to the English Mjolnir and my native Swedish puts it as Mjölner, so that looks like a weird inbetween version. I'm wholly on board with this, Azure's Blade is at least version 0.2 to Nightblood's 0.1. Something is definitely weird about Nightblood, and I do believe that Vasher notes that a thousand Breaths shouldn't have been enough to make Nightblood what it is. Theb there's this WoB: Which is interesting and probably a function of it consuming Investiture. Hmm, it might be a similar process to Savantism, its Spiritual aspect inflating and warping from the sheer amount of Investiture. In any case, I definitely agree that Nightblood seems "more" than Azure's Blade and that her Blade doesn't (significantly) draw Investiture from its wielder, as handing it to a spren would have been a very bad idea in that case. I'm not sure one flavour of Investiture would be more likely to make something sapient than another, or if it is, Valor, Honor, Mercy and Odium are some of the candidates that feel likely to be more inclined toward it. I'd say that they are concepts that kind of require sapience to make sense. Several of the others can also work wity the same mindset, but some are debatable. Endowment probably belongs in the "requires sapience" category, gifts freely given does not feel like something you find in nature. But say, Ruin and Preservation should not be particularly inclined towards sapience. As I've made clear, this doesn't really make sense to me. I just don't find it probable that they'd have managed to figure that out, even if they got ahold of Valor's Investiture. As for the quote from Quantus, I don't really see the mechanic for that, though some of it might have merit. I don't think the Investiture would have aligned 100% with another Shard, though if the leaking Investiture is in fact corrupted, then I could see it being an admixture of Endowment and something else. ¤_¤

Yeah, vague humanoid isn't much to go on. Fair enough, to me it makes sense if everything is an outgrowth of few base principles. So I see everything as more or less specialised expressions of the Surges. Hm, music- and fermentationspren are probably of Illumination and Progression, respectively. Illumination because I suspect that they are actually "rhythmspren," which makes sense for them being attracted to Ryshadium and in any case Illumination is waveforms, including sound. Progression because it's a biological process, though I guess a Rosharan might see it as Transformation. Though I don't think that the kind of spren has to be directly relevant to exactly what the spren do as fabrials. I also don't think that the Nahel spren are direct personifications of the Surges. All spren are of the Surges to me, as are the Regal abilities. In the latter case the greater number of Regal forms than orders of Radiant is simple to explain, Envoyform grants Adhesion, but not the ability to stick people to walls. Just like fabrials, the expression of the Surge is simply limited and/or fine-tuned. Oh, and I don't know what Surge(s) the emotionspren belong to, but it makes more sense to me if everything grew out of the fundamentals of Roshar rather than being a wholly separate thing. And to me there's no reason to believe that Rosharan magic isn't categorically Surge-based (other than the possible exception of the Old Magic.) They see the Surges as the fundamental things that make the universe move, does it not make sense that the personified phenomena would be a sub-category of that? -Words of Radiance, chapter 3 If each spren is a power given life and power and force can be used interchangably, then each spren is a particular manifestation of the Surges given life, as the Surges are the Rosharan idea of fundamental forces. Ah, here I can bring up something that I think is a fundamental of Roshar, if it goes in a fabrial, it goes in a gemheart, it goes in a Nahel bond, theoretically. Anything that has a valid output in one can theoretically go in the others, though good luck making Stormfatherform happen. I also feel like we haven't been using correct terminology here, which to be fair I am guilty of starting the discussion on. Ten types can make Radiants, how many can make Surgebinders? The Radiants are an artificial category, ten kinds of Surgebinder, organised by Ishar and having their power tied to a code of conduct. Presumably the oath system is something imposed after spren started bonding humans. There are also a couple of important questions to ask: is Renarin a Radiant and are Enligthened spren the same as their non-Enlightened counterparts? If Renarin is a Radiant and Enlightened spren not the same, then there are more types of spren that can make Radiants, at at least eleven. -Oathbringer, chapter 30 -Oathbringer, chapter 115 Here we have two examples of non-True spren attempting to bond humans (and succeeding in the latter case) as well as Rayse saying that spren have always been able to do it. This makes me think that the reason that only ten kinds of spren make modern Surgebinders is the same as why True spren didn't bond singers. The organisation of the Radiants was presumably aided by Honor, and he could have imposed rules upon the spren themselves, like that only these varieties of spren could bond humans and that they couldn't bond singers. As a sidenote, I have a suspicion that Surgebinding isn't Honor's magic system exactly, but that the Nahel bond is more so Honor's thing, though this is not something that is integral to my speculatuon. In any case I do think that the Nahel bond is of Honor, it does work pretty well with Honor's Truest Surge, the Surge of binding and oaths, IMO. So just like Honor placed restrictions on Surgebinding, he might have restricted the Nahel bond, which might explain why Turash was suprised at Nergaoul bonding the Sadeas army. Honor might have been able to prevent it in the past. Hmm, to expand on what I wrote above, it's also possible that Honor placed restrictions on the Radiant bond specifically, as clearly he couldn't prevent the singers bonding Voidspren. I do agree that a proper Radiant bond (as opposed to the general Nahel bond) functionally, or nearly so, requires a sapient spren, as they need to be able to judge the oaths. Then again, I assume that being bonded to humans might cause greater sapience to eventually manifest, like the Stormfather gaining a less rigid perspective on things. I also wonder about the idea of the True spren representing the concept of the Surges they grant. I'm not sure that's true, but I don't think we have enough information to tell one way or the other yet. And I will agree that a theoretical bond with a windspren will probably not grant you power at the level of a Windrunner at the first oath, but I do think it would grant the same Surges. Well, Renarin probably does it, though in a roundabout way. The fact that it's through the Radiant bond just lets him fuel it with Stormlight and get a Blade, etc. I also feel like the Voidbinding chart should not use twisted versions of the Surge glyphs if the Surges weren't involved or the powers didn't look like expressions of the Surges. The impression I get is not that these are representations of something wholly alien, but something that's familiar but off in some way. If it didn't look like the Surges there would be entirely different glyphs, IMO. Phew, that's good to hear. Yeah, fair fair. Fair enough. Turns out Radiants are complicated. Hmm, maybe. ¤_¤

Yeah, I can see that going either way. How inconsiderate of them not to prioritise expositing over solving their problems. Considering its apparent direct connection to the heart and being installed by a Bondsmith, possibly it leapfrogs Adhesion off the Sibling or Melishi did some Bondsmithing to it. It could also simply be a wind- or gloryspren hooked into the Sibling. Along with something to provide Transformation. Hrm... This thing is complicated. Ah. Partly I come from a place of wishing to reduce complexity. It makes more sense to me if there are fewer moving parts. For the analogy of "Earth spren," I'd assume that anything they could do would be a derivation of the fundamental forces. To me condensing things down is incredibly satisfying, as such I reach for explanations that use known elements rather than assume unknown elements. I prefer the simplest possible explanation that still covers everything. To me saying that Rosharan magic isn't Surge-based is akin to saying that Scadrian magic isn't the Metallic Arts. I also wonder why there aren't Radiants that have access to other powers if they exist within the system in that case. If the speculation from my thread a while back is anywhere near correct on the nature of Voidbinding, then it's even stranger that it too seems to fall along the lines of the Surges, which is also supported by the Voidbinding chart, IMO. Eh, I hope I don't come off as stand-offish or unwilling to accept differing viewpoints, I don't wish to be rude, just explain myself. Respectfully disagree, basically. It's interesting encountering such a different interpretation. The one thing I can think of is that the veins wouldn't carry Light back to the heart, but holy cow this stuff is weird. It's also possible that it works on a principle similar to induction, letting the heart and the veins be separate, but that sounds like such a weak post facto justification. I suppose someone will have to ask Brandon, because I trust that someone would have asked during the writing process and that Brandon builds his systems well enough to explain this adequately. Hmm, I'm not sure if that would work, but I could see it being viable. I think some of the notes might contradict that idea, but then again they were at best written under the guidance of an absolute madman. Mmyep I think most of them are probably Rosharan/Ashynite terms, but who knows. I'm not sure how passive it is, I don't think that we've really seen it happen when a Lightweaver hasn't been trying to do something. The Memories are the equivalent to strength of Squires, no? That implies that Windrunners should have an analogous effect, if I were to guess, probably something about leading people. Encouraging people to follow to the Lightweavers encouraging people to be better. Cognitive outgrowth of either the secondary Surge of the order or both/the hybrid. Heh, I feel like I might have contributed to this thread derailing a bit... It's hard to not ask follow-up questions in interesting discussions. ¤_¤

Huh, maybe I just got that impression from them finding rooms seeming to have no way in other than little holes in the walls. Now I'm wondering what the mechanism for the doors is. Are the walls hollow? What translates Light into motion? Is the type of gem relevant? Why is there a gem in the first place? Oh gosh, that thing... I think it has to have Adhesion as a component. We know it's a derivation of Transformation, sure, but Melishi is credited for it. If it's a Bondsmith fabrial that possibly explains why it could keep functioning. My guess would be that it derives from the Bondsmith-Soulcasting interaction, the same way that the Google Roshar map is from the Bondsmith-Lightweaving interaction. It also definitely doesn't do standard Soulcasting, what with the sustained half-transformation. I think its function is fairly simple, the sapphire is providing the template for what to affect, the glass orb providing the basis for what to make. How it actually achieves the half-transformation is however unknown. There's also the fact that it wasn't on when the Tower was found, even though one of the nodes was exposed to the storm. That might of course have something to do with the nodes being connected to the Sibling's heart and thus resisting infusion like the heart did, until they allowed it to happen. That of course opens its own can of worms, why are the nodes connected to the heart but the garnet veins not? Argh... Ah, there I fundamentally disagree. I think that, probably barring the Old Magic, every Rosharan Arcanum is a manifestation of the Surges. Singer Forms, Regal powers, fabrials, everything is a manifestation of the Surges, in some cases just highly specialised or restricted. I don't know yet what Surges are used to do what in every case, but I can't imagine that the underlying system isn't the Surges. I suppose you could be right. It doesn't work with the framework I currently use to undertstand this, but my framework may of course be wrong. It's one of those that's just stuck in my head, personally. Yeah, we've probably not seen the full potential of the Honorblades yet, especially if Honor was keeping them in check. Possibly barring Ishar's Blade, but the only thing we know for sure is something exceeding past Bondsmiths is the Perpendicularity. (I'd argue we have no idea how the embodied spren stuff was done, nor if it would be beyond Bondsmiths in general in a post-Honor world, if it was even done via Bondsmithing in the first place.) There's also the bit where the Stormfather remarks, I think in that same conversation about Jezrien's Blade, that long ago the powers bore no name, they were simply him, or something like that. Which might be another point to "the Heralds must have been quite something." Heh Oh yeah! Mechanically it's probably the same thing as what Shallan did when she aquired her entourage. Pattern sees it as Transformation, but then again he sees having a body as using a corpse to do things... To be fair, the Stormfather has rather strong opinions on making the wind not blow. ¤_¤

My first thought is basically "oh please, no." That is, I hope that there's no major Shardic interference from outside Roshar in SA. As for the candidates: Invention seemingly isn't amenable to conversation. Whimsy seems plain unreliable, which is definitely what you want from a godlike being. Mercy is hard to get a read on, we don't know if they acted with or against Odium (or if each of the three were on their own sides.) Valor I agree is the likeliest to have an interventionist mindset, but may have Invested somewhere, precluding direct intervention. Harmony is barely able to act and is anchored to Scadrial, direct intervention seems out of the question. As for sending aid, I don't find it impossible, but his resources are limited to agents he's able to spare and who'd go willingly, as he generally is unwilling to compromise free will. His main agents are also the kandra, who have the problem of being vulnerable to outside influence due to their nature. So I could see a couple of agents showing up, maybe, if they managed to reach a Perpendicularity. I also think the Ghostbloods are doing their own thing and would possibly even try to interfere with agents of Harmony. Autonomy seems unlikely to take overt action in a way that would risk her own neck. We also know that Hoid has a grudge against Bavadin and judging by what's said in the letter about the new Avatar, the feeling is somewhat mutual, so them making common cause might just be less likely for personal reasons. Though the same letter also mentions that another of them might have been receptive. It's also unlikely that Hoid would seek to travel to First of the Sun at present, to overcome the tests, as that would require giving up his status as a Lightweaver and possibly killing a spren. Moreover it seems likely that Odium's forces would still have a presence in Shadesmar, making worldhopping a more uncertain prospect. Seems fine with just sitting around making super-zombies, unless something comes up. Is also anchored to Nalthis by Investing there. Also, IIRC, there's a WoB mentioning that the intelligence that picks the Returned shifts the reason for doing so often, or something like that, so Endowment might not be the most reliable Shard. Is already involved and is possibly playing 5D chess with Taravangian, honestly, who knows? I really hope that if he ends up killing her and splintering Cultivation, that it won't lead to new Shards moving in. That would feel incredibly cheap to me. "Honor's dead, but we have I can't believe it's not Honor." It also feels like it would be kinda out of nowhere. In any case, both Koravari and Taravangian currently believe that they're the one with the upper hand and they have no reason to openly oppose eachother. While I do think this is entirely true, I will steadfastly hold to the position that we've seen no mechanic confirmed to be able to reforge a Shard. I suspect, since I don't think Endowment has much of an overarching plan, that she did not in fact send it anywhere. Even if Nightblood is definitely the most tangible and impactful extra-Rosharan anything in the system. I suppose if Saze wants to compete he'll just have to send a copy of the Bands over. And if the same person gets ahold of both, well, Roshar was fun while it lasted, better luck next planet... To be fair, it wasn't like she talked to him, unlike Taravangian. It'll probably be harder to play him than the walking temper-tantrum she presumably knew as both a person and a Vessel. But I wouldn't be suprised if both of them were to engage in a riveting game of 5D chess at eachother. Cultivation as the ultimate villain of SA! (I'm not saying it'll happen, just that it's plausible and wouldn't suprise me.) For Rayse, it would have ruined his moral high-ground, he made sure to have plausible deniability for his killings. On top of that, he wishes to be the only god, which is kind of not conducive to long-term alliances with others of that same kind. For Taravangian, well: -Rhytm of War, chapter 114 Taravangian doesn't seem to hold the rest of the Vessels in high esteem, judging by them being "fools" and "broken gods." While I do think that she doesn't wish war and desolation on Roshar, I'm not sure she wants Odium to be someone else's problem. Helping a new Vessel take their first steps is perfect for making sure their preconceptions come from you, that you will be the guide for their power. I've mentioned in another thread that I think an element of Cultivation is control, and I think she might have a hard time letting go and letting others be independent. And now she's perfectly poised to control a second Shard without all the pesky baggage of taking it for herself. She can be read as a web-weaver and manipulator and I think there may be merit to that reading. I just have to ask, why? I'm not meaning to say you're wrong or throw shade, but that came so completely out of nowhere to me, so I very much want to know. I do agree here. Maybe in the long term he'd consider it, or if she acted to stop his plans, but if he can have a friendly Vessel in his home base who is willing to teach him and help him improve his abilities and knowledge, I don't think he'll throw it away so quickly, especially when he's new to things and she is not. I also agree here, there's no reason to risk open confrontation yet. If we look at how Taravangian views confrontation: -Rhythm of War, chapter 114, bolding mine He has no way of guaranteeing a desirable outcome for himself, should he attack Cultivation. Ergo, to do so would put him on Rayse's level, ergo he probably won't. It's phrased remarkably similarly to the way the Intents of Ruin, Preservation, and Odium were displayed. Bravery, dying courage, glory of fighting to defend, the feeling of stepping off into the unknown.... those definitely sound like rather valorous concepts. Huh, neat. Yeah, that tracks. Of course, if the new Vessel is right there and Ascends before you have a chance to do that, then the plan goes out the window. And somebody with what it takes to kill a Shard's vessel would just agree to that? I have my doubts. Are you talking about Nightblood here? Because even if he still had it post Ascension it'd be in a "food coma" and once it wakes up he's got no scabard, so he'll presumably suffer the same fate as Rayse, just slower. And if it's not about Nightblood, what does Odium have for killing a Vessel? I mean, have Honor's remains had an appreciable impact in any way whatsoever? Then why would Odium's? ¤_¤

Ah, I misunderstood then. I suppose Syl and Kalak as Cognitive beings of various flavours have no natural Connection to the Physical and must somehow leapfrog it. I'd say it's similar to a Cognitive Shadow typically being rooted to their system, undo the Connection and they might get sucked into the Cognitive automatically, probably by the same underlying mechanic that drags the Cognitive aspect into the Cognitive on death, no valid Connection to the Physical and all. Yeah, fair. Yep, messes with fabrials too. Personally I think that's an outgrowth of it suppressing Light, rather than a separate function. I make that assumption based on Urithiru being basically the USS Enterprise by way of Minas Tirith. It's a magical "smart city" with a central intelligence running it. Granting that intelligence access to more functions would help it do its job. For instance some doorways run off Cohesion, IIRC, and it makes more sense to me if that is enabled by the Sibling and not an auxiliary fabrial. It makes sense if the floorplan was laid out to start with, rather than being significantly expanded later, especially if the Sibling is normally able to see/be the whole Tower. I'm possibly mistaken about all Surges, but I do think that they can manipulate more Surges than normal in some capacity. And in the case of Division, possibly a war crime. To me it makes sense to be able to manipulate an extant thing without being able to create said thing. Hmm, these assumptions make a lot of sense. I suppose if he unthrottled Ishar's Blade temporarily that could work. Heh, to sort of echo your own sentiment, Heralds do be scary. That wording sounds familiar, yes. Yeah, they are probably way more powerful than we've seen thus far... I also hadn't considered the implication of Honor's limits on Surgebinding in relation to the Honorblades before. "You could be a Windrunner unoathed... and more," indeed. Fair, fair. So we'll have Full Lashing, Reverse Lashing, Basic Lashing, Sticky Lashing, Slicky Lashing... Do they though? I thought it was simply mnemonics manifesting differently in different people. Perception helps channel/interpret the power, to be fair, so the idea that windspren-ish would give wind-ish abilities makes a degree of sense. Does that mean that Dalinar could create shockwaves, a sort of mini-stormwall, if you will? (Makes sense as Adhesion already helps Windrunners shape the air and Tension presumably makes things "hard." Works in my head anyway, even if I don't find it a realistic power as such.) ¤_¤

I'd say that it's a Spiritual attribute, but that doesn't mean that it only interacts with other Spiritual stuff. It's just something like the sum of your Connections, be that to country, family, people in general, etc. Look at the Singers acting like people from where they were were "supposed" to act. Thanks Yeah, I don't think there would have been enough Light present to account for that. Fair enough. To me it feels like it's obviously manipulating Adhesion, though it's basically thrown in reverse, weakening bonds rather than strengthening them. It also uses garnets, which sit on the opposite side of the Surgebinding chart from sapphires. If it's manipulating Adhesion it also makes some sense that it can't really suppress Adhesion, just because a power should not be able to go recursive. Honorblades are a lot of Investiture and come directly from Honor, that might just make them overcome the suppression. They also might have a built-in Adhesion component, given that at least the Heralds can pull Light out of nowhere. But I will admit that I don't know enough to properly account for all of these, though I think the broad statement of it being an Adhesion fabrial is entirely true. Fair, fair. We really need more info on the Sibling, they might simply have been given rudimentary access to all the Surges for the purpose of being a city. I do think that the tidbits of "the Surge of binding and oaths" and "a Bondsmith bound other Surges" might imply that there's a lot you can do with Adhesion. Huh, it had never occured to me before that the Tower was made around the Heart rather than the Heart being installed in the Tower... Fair, fair. Now I want to see Oathgate equivalent fabrials for the other Surges. Never said anything about mere. The way I see it, Honor might be seen as the ultimate Bondsmith. And Ash talks about it as well: So it does sound like Ishar actually made the Oathpact, which is... wild. I'd argue that someone being the founder of something doesn't mean that they themself made the thing be a thing. It was Ishar's idea, but until we get it in a book or WoB I refuse to believe that a mortal had that kind of power unasisted. Be it Dawnshard or Honor doing like Vin-Preservation to Elend, I don't think "just" Ishar with his Honorblade could have done it, it feels ridiculous in the context of Roshar, which is saying something. Hmm, yeah, what you said. Maybe we can finally get some workable terminology from mister trained with all the Surges next book. ¤_¤

The narration in Dalinar's PoV does the same, saying that Dalinar "combined three Realms into one." As I come to agree with LTT's criticism of the terminology the more I think about it, I don't think tossing it into the "Spiritual Adhesion" wastebasket is particularly helpful. I'd almost want to place it in Physical instead, as it looks to me more like he's gluing the Realms together than causing some abstract concept of theirs to be the same. Interesting to note here is that the Perpendicularity he creates seems to be backwards from "standard" Perpendicularities. Rather than a quantity of Investiture thinning the border between Realms, this Perpendicularity seems to manifest as a result of the border being artificially broken. Difference between a river and a canal, basically. I also feel like we've never gotten actual confirmation as to the mechanics of this, so I don't think we can be that sure it's Spiritual Adhesion. Fair enough. I miiight have failed to explain how I think of it. I do think that it's all Connection in the background, that makes sense. However, I don't think that all it touches is Connection. So in the cases listed I'd say that it works something like this: Dalinar's Duolingo I don't think is tricking the cosmere that he grew up in Azir exactly, I don't think he Connects to the right thing (Azish person vs country of Azir.) If it did it should be similar to the Southerner medallions, I think, giving an imperfect imitation. Rather I think he's Connecting his and the Azish person's Connections to eachother, not quite manipulating either but forging a "bridge" between them. Now his soul knows he's Azish (as opposed to Alethi from Azir) and Alethi, allowing him to more fluently speak the language. Ishar's Investiture sink is the same concept applied differently, Connecting whatever defines the border of the self to something external (and presumably it could also be used to share Investiture between individuals.) The Full Lashing makes anything touching the glowy spot Connect to what the glowy spot is on (possibly what is seen as a part of what is based on some metric like size or mass or is simply a perception thing.) This Connection brdges between the Physical aspects, while leaving the Spiritual markers (presumably) that define the self alone, which is why Light isn't drained. The inverse is true for the Investiture sink, which is why the unlucky Windrunners aren't glued to the ground. I think this bit from Dawnshard can help clear that up a bit: -Dawnshard, chapter 18 Seeing as Huio's glow fades and there are no known sources of Light nearby, I think it's safe to say that Windrunners pull Light directly from the Spiritual upon level up. (And from nearby gems for dramatic effect ) Yep, that sure happens. Makes me wonder if part of why Shallan sucks at Soulcasting is trauma from that... Oh, that's definitely true. I don't think that the terms are useful beyond broad categorisation, a Full Lashing is Physical Adhesion like A-pewter is Physical Allomancy, one example of, not whole category. Fair enough. Fair, fair. Though the Suppressor is an Adhesion fabrial, it blatantly does Connection stuff. I also think a bit of the functioning of Urithiru can be chalked up to "that thing what Bondsmiths can do" when they grab hold of the Surges of other Radiants. That and auxiliary fabrials manifested on top of the Urithiru-fabrial. I should really re-read RoW... A few ideas, it could be that they are partly or wholly of the Sibling, it could be that the Oathgates are auxiliary/sub-fabrials to the tower, child units to Urithiru, it could be that they have had a dependent relationship to the Sibling, the Oathgates were pressumably meant to be fueled with Towerlight, not requiring an external Investiture toll each time or it could be that the Sibling simply filled the role of parent to the Oathgate spren. Fair enough. I think we can safely say that pulling Investiture from the Spiritual is pure Adhesion, not sure about the Perpendicularity. I also find it plausible. I could see that being the case, though I think it makes more sense if they are all roughly on the same level of power, each one being a walking storm does make the playing field look more even vs hundreds of Fused. (I'm also not sure Ishar created the Oathpact, given the phrasing of "a Bondsmith." I suspect Tanavast. ) (Pffffff, Tanny Boi ) He sure has, we get to know that at Thaylen Field when he's chasing the Abrasion fused. He also refers to her slicking the King's Drop as "her version of a Lashing," which I find curious. I don't think a simple Full Lashing's gonna be enough for any of these cases. For the allomancer I'm landing somewhere between maaaaybe and "only if you can burn the iron in your hemoglobin." I don't think that the metal being part of you is what would do it. For the prosthetic I think you'd need something like Ishar's Investiture sink, and probably something more to let your cognition interact with it. As for the last thing, I think yes, that probably only requires a tweak of Ishar's Investiture sink and attaching a person on either end. Or it would muddle both to the extent that neither could access things normally keyed to them for the duration. ¤_¤

Hmm, this generally tracks. I do disagree here, it could just be a magical binding agent that's more durable than the things bound. Think about separating two things glued together, depending on the materials and glue, a glued thing might break before the glue gives. Not that I think that'll be the mechanic after perusing the thread, but it doesn't stick out to me. I'm inclined to think of it more as similar to Dalinar's Duolingo power, though that is a roundabout agreement after some consideration. The way it seems to me is that each of these (Full Lashing, Duolingo, Ishar's... thing) are all based on the same underlying principle, just applied to different things. Full Lashings tell two physical objects "you are one," while sneaking the cosmere a bribe to agree, thus the objects behave as one. Dalinar's Duolingo and Ishar's shenanigans simply seem to apply the same concept to some more abstract non-Physical things, presumably Connection and Identity respectively, if I were to guess. Connection is known to enable language and Identity seems probable for making one thing behave as an extention of another. Makes sense. Now, this raises an interesting question to me. Ishar's Blade is seen enabling him to do stuff at a comparable level to Dalinar. I don't think Tanavast would have played favourites with the Heralds, so would they all have access to the "broad spectrum" of their Surges? Could Jezrien's Blade have enabled the opening of a Perpendicularity? I think these definitions are still useful tools for discussion, though it hadn't dawned on me that people were apparently treating "Physical" and "Spiritual" as separate things rather than separate aspects of one thing. The way I see it any power can theoretically manifest along the lines of the three Realms. So Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual [power]. In the case of Adhesion, it is helpful to be able to talk about "narrow spectrum" Adhesion and "broad spectrum" Adhesion, as we don't see any hints that Windrunners can actively use any manifestation of Adhesion that doesn't directly affect the Physical. The only time Windrunners seem to be able to tap into something like the "broad spectrum" is during their level ups. Ishar says that things get closer to the Spiritual when a Radiant swears an oath and that it is especially prominent with Bondsmiths, but that still means that something happens with "normal" Radiants. And during the moment of achieving a new oath Windrunners do like Bondsmiths and pull Light out of nowhere. My conjecture is then that all orders get a brief period of access to a "broad spectrum" of their powers with each oath, possibly due to the influx of investiture into the spiritweb upon attaining it. Most Orders however don't manifest this particularly visibly, as only orders with access to Adhesion seem able to pull Light out of nowhere. Huh, that might have gotten away from me... Anyway, I do feel like the labels are useful for discussion as they can help us differentiate between different applications/manifestations of the same power. This makes sense, especially as Dalinar sticks Kadash to the floor that one time. I'd say that the terminology is fine, if unrefined and unstandardised. Physical Adhesion should, IMO, indicate Adhesion acting in/upon the Physical, Spiritual Adhesion the same upon the Spiritual. The former covers sticking things together, the latter messing with the cosmere components of the soul. Though the more I think as I write the less adequate these sound. Dalinar and Ishar's Perpendicularity trick probably needs its own category as "Hybrid" Adhesion or something and there are presumably Cognitive manifestations as well, presumably the thing that Syl thinks Dalinar should be able to do to make her feel what Kaladin feels would be that kind. Then there's Dalinar's repair powers, which Brandon has classified as Bondsmith stuff, which almost seems like reverse Soulcasting in a way. Mind, Urithiru has a bubble of increased air pressure around it. I also don't think that Adhesion can be separated into a purely Physical version and a full version any more than allomantic steel is a different ability than the Bands-enabled "my god, it's full of stars." The difference is purely one of power, not nature. And as I said above, I do think the Honorblades would all be at the same level of power, which seems to be similar to Bondsmith level, at least in the hands of a Herald. Another tidbit that might point to the level of investiture of the Honorblades is that Ishar mistakes Nightblood for one that's been corrupted. I don't think that pressure manipulation can purely be a Windrunner Radiant thing, either it's a hybrid manifestation, something that comes easier to Windrunners than Bondsmiths, Dalinar being bad at his powers or something similar to when the Stormfather says that Dalinar's Surges won't serve him well if he seeks to use them for mere battle. ¤_¤

Heh I did just check the end of Alloy ¤_¤

So, I was basing this on the little statement that acompanies each order in the Radiant quiz. Dustbringers get "I will seek self-mastery." I'd also argue that restraint and self-mastery go hand-in-hand here, mastering oneself teaches restraint. It's also interesting to note that, outside of practice, several orders with access to powers that can be highly destructive (Windrunners/Gravitation, Dustbringers/Division and Skybreakers/both) have themes that prevent free excercise of the powers. Windrunners have to protect, Skybreakers have to follow a code and Dustbringers have to show restraint. Compare with Edgedancers who are almost incentivised to use their power of healing, as they are supposed to care about those that get forgotten. I'm not sure "resigned" is quite the right word, but I do see your argument. I also don't think that the standard theory of Taln Stoneward, Ash Dustbringer is unrealistic, I can just see Brandon pulling the wool over our eyes and it totally working with these characters. ¤_¤

So, here's a somewhat different idea. Ash becomes a Stoneward, Taln a Dustbringer. I'd argue that that better fits the journeys these characters need to make. Taln is already the Stoneward, we've been told that no other order was as alike its patron as the Stonewards, so what is there left to learn for him on that path? If we look at other major Radiants, a lot of them are pushed to make a journey of self-discovery/self-actualisation through the Nahel bond. Kaladin learns to extend protection to people outside his personal interest as well as starting to accept that he can't save everybody. The latter he's struggled with since he was a surgeon's apprentice. Teft learns to accept that he's worth protecting. Lopen learns that even a jab in good fun can still hurt. Shallan stops hiding from her trauma (and needs so much therapy, poor girl shouldn't have to confront that herself) even if she's bad at dealing with it. Lift stops running from the fact that she cares. Dalinar learns that failure is not the end and to forgive himself for past mistakes. Venli starts learning to do better and not be ruled by self-centered ambition. If we look at the themes of the orders, Dustbringer is self-mastery and Stoneward is being where you are needed. I think that Ash, a person who has been running from her role as Herald for over four millenia, would make a poingnant journey traveling the path of being where you're needed. Taln on the other hand has spent that same time being exactly where he's needed and is a broken man who seems to act mostly on instinct when not lucid. He's also known to be stubborn to a fault and having a penchant to win unwinnable battles but die in the process. Walking the path of self-mastery could see him learning to temper his stubborness and not throwing his life away. He's also the Herald with the worst known mental state, even Jezrien wasn't as unaware of reality as Taln, so I'd say that he's the one who's most in need of re-mastering himself. ¤_¤

As on so many others, friend. ¤_¤

I don't find this to be a measure of quality, rather a measure of difference. The Era 1 world of political machinations and superpowered assassins segueing into the end of the world lends itself more easily to action than old west cowboy with superpowers trying to act properly upper-crusty because he thinks he has to. Full disclosure, Alloy is the Sanderson book I've read the most times, I never kept track of my re-reads properly, but it's something like 7-13 times. So I'm coming in here with a pro-Alloy bias. Heh, I find myself in the opposite camp on the Era 2 sequels, Bands is the peak of Era 2 and Shadows is basically a hole in my memory wherein like two interesting things happen. Reflecting on it now, I think I might not like Shadows for similar reasons to why I couldn't finish Shadows for Silence... Honest question, why is that a bad thing? Especially for a series of books that seem to be pulp adjacent. I'd argue that it wasn't really introduced at the end of book 1, as all mentions of Trell are solely tied to Miles, there's no real mystery, just Miles' religion. And if I may nitpick, the end of Era 1 introduces Adonalsium without ever explaining what that is. ¤_¤

Well, the Listeners at least had some infighting, but IIRC it's more ceremonial warfare and less all out killing. Other than that, seeing as the Singers are physically mature at like age seven, I'd say that they have the capability to replace losses far quicker than humans. I mean, do they have the proper coordination and resources to get that done? They'd need to use a limited supply of a resource they can't renew to do so. They also might not be able to safely identify which are which, given the events leading up to it. Good point, the Radiants wouldn't be able to bring themselves to do that. Huh... I definitely think there can be Radiants who'd do the dirty work, they aren't definitionally moral. Jasnah had the idea of killing all the Singers, did she not? Life before Death can't unilaterally mean that life is sacred, Kaladin kills so many for one. Also, even a Windrunner can rationalise, look at Kaladin when someone tries to argue that he can't do anything as long as they're not a threat. ¤_¤

1. Magic/worldbuilding 2. Character, I guess? Magic mechanics are my jammiest jam. Other than that, character stuff is probably what resonates with me the most. Things like romance are basically wholly uninteresting, but like in a neutral way? I don't have a problem with it being there, but it doesn't do anything for me. I basically don't read characters as having romantic/sexual attraction unless it's spelled out. ¤_¤

@Benkinsky How dare you?! It's baffling that this old meme is still going strong... Anyway, I don't intend to drag more people into this mess. ¤_¤

See, I connected "one whom it broke" to "find Mishram and release her," not to "one who has suffered for so many centuries." So I saw "as one whom it broke, find Mishram and release her" where you saw something like "as one who has suffered for so many centuries, one whom it broke." I don't dispute that's a valid reading, though it's not how it sounded to me. ¤_¤

Yeah, I get that. I still feel that the Shanay-im are the counterparts to Skybreakers, not Windrunners. One of the base premises of this thread is of course that Odium is entirely capable of granting Adhesion, Rayse just didn't, or didn't on a large scale. It also makes sense if each Unmade either started out as a natural spren of Roshar, or was made by letting Odium's Investiture take the same "shape," that they'd retain a connection to the Surges in some form. If Mishram is a windspren/honorspren "blueprint" inflated to a godspren/near-godspren level, retaining the connection to the Surges that comes with that "blueprint" makes sense to me. The Unmade may be comparable to the Oathgate spren, in a way. The Oathgate spren don't seem to be standard True spren, but are definitely sapient. One of each pair is also described in a very similar way to inkspren. I find it likely, as speculated on Shardcast, that each pair is at its base an inkspren and a lightspren. In the same vein, each Unmade might have at its base a True spren, or the "blueprint" thereof, leaning towards having once been normal Rosharan spren personally, each one responding differently to the process of Unmaking, which might explain why some are non-sapient. In my opinion this also works to explain why there is no Bondsmith equivalent, grabbing the Stormfather, Nightwatcher or Sibling and unmaking them might be both harder and more noticable than just grabbing a random True spren. Well, the Sibling says that it touched the souls of all who belong to Roshar, so it's not strange that it affected the Sibling too. Kalak also claims that it broke him in his letter. If I may get sidetracked for a moment, I've had a theory for a long time now about the sealing of Mishram, one that needs a bit of a rework at present, but still. Based on the information we have of the sealing a few things stick out. The Sibling is startlingly ignorant of what happened at the sealing. This is odd as Melishi was their Bondsmith (the only Bondsmith of that generation) and so you'd think that they'd know more specifically what went down. The spren note how fortuitous it was that the Sibling knew to end their bond early. This doesn't track for me, the Sibling is unlikely to have known what would happen. What did Mishram want? Oathbringer gives us two examples of Unmade that have somehow been captured, aside from Mishram. Re-Shephir who is noted to have been trapped by someone who understood her and Nergaoul who is captured by someone who knows it intimately. What could the strike team supply, what did Melishi have that she wanted? She set herself up as a god, as proxy-Odium. She Connected to the singers (presumably except the Last Legion), supplying Light and Regal forms. I will admit that this sounds very Bondsmith-y. In my earlier version of this theory, back when I still believed that bonding any sufficiently powerful spren would grant the Bondsmith Surges, I thought she wanted a Bondsmith of her own. With my current understanding I don't think that's quite true. But we know that she displayed at least one never-before-seen power during the False Desolation, the ability to Connect to the singers, otherwise the phrasing "Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people" makes no sense. Add to that the fact that Melishi saw the Connection lines, and it looks like several users of Adhesion gained new abilities around the same time. (Thanks, @mathiau, IIRC, for that observation.) So, what happened? Judging by the Sibling's ignorance of the events, their bond with Melishi possibly ended before the sealing. Either that or Melishi died in the process/soon after, as he can not have participated in the Recreance, given the Sibling's alive-ness. What Melishi had to offer would have been knowledge and understanding. He would have known the typical Bondsmith applications of Adhesion, while Mishram was unfamiliar with the power she now posessed. Melishi could offer a teacher, and possibly a bondmate, to her. I don't think it's a stretch to assume that part of the horror that befell the singers at large was because of Mishram's inexperience/untempered power. When Dalinar traps Nergaoul the Sadeas soldiers don't go mindless, even though they have an Unmade poking into them. It looks like Mishram overcommitted and when she was sealed the singers payed the price. Mishram side-track over. Makes sense, pretty sure that matches with my division by Surges. Makes sense, I definitely favour the idea that his powers can be explained that way, after I grew convinced that Mishram goes with Windrunner. Hard disagree, her power seems transformative rather than additive, she changes nature rather than amount. I place her as Elsecaller. I can't see this not being the case, agree. Pretty much stated outright, agree. That also seems to line up with my categorisation. Agree. This matches ideas put forth earlier in the thread, agree. As I fill this spot with Sja-anat I have to disagree to stay consistent. That puts Dai-Gonarthis as Edgedancer for me, possibly Willshaper if Yelig-nar doesn't go there, though I fail to see how expressions of the Edgedancer Surges can explain his use of all of Surgebinding. Gosh I love this stuff, things make a lot of sense to me right now. ¤_¤