Inquisitor #5

I assume this is about when they fight at the end of WoR? In that scene Szeth comes to the conclusion that the reason he was made Truthless, and thus all the obligations that came with it, were false. So to me that's not a lapse on his part, as he no longer has the obligation to act as a Truthless. ¤_¤

I feel like honour isn't exactly quantifiable. They're differently honourable. Though Szeth has, as far as we know, held to what he's understood to be his obligations flawlessly, while Kaladin hasn't. Then again their situations also aren't the same, barring that the times when they were slaves had an overlap. ¤_¤

Oh, there I very much disagree, I'd say he's definitely doing the latter, not the former. The Fused are Rosharan singers (or copies thereof, depending on your stance on CSs), using Rosharan bodies, accessing Rosharan magic. They are bound to Braize, presumably beacuse they are made up of Odium's Investiture, but they are beings of Roshar. Imagine that an allomancer went to Roshar and was granted persistence like the Heralds, they would not need a spren to do allomancy, or start wielding Surges by burning metals. All the same they'd be bound to Roshar. In the same way the Fused are people of Roshar, that they're now Connected to Braize doesn't change that. 'S all good. I had not considered this, it is a possibility, though I find connecting what we see of him to Transportation hard. It would be interesting to know if the gem growths match the swallowed gem and if he can be held in multiple kinds of polestone. Good catch. @Frustration, thanks for all the verbal sparring across multiple topics, your high engagement and seemingly unerring tendency to find an interpretation contrary to mine has led to a lot of enjoyable debating, as well as giving me the opportunity to do additional passes across my theories and ideas. ¤_¤

Yes, but I see him as hacking his way into the existing Surgebinding of Roshar. His being tied to Braize should in no way affect how this manifests. Well, no but I felt it was a good illustration. Both are, by my interpretation, backdooring into something existing. You pointed out yourself that Odium isn't nine-centric, Braize is, so why should Odium's power manifest on Roshar under a Braizish paradigm? I'm... not sure I follow, sorry? Would each Order not automatically start offset by one from each neighbor? If both are Adhesion primary, are they not definitionally Gravitation secondary? Or Tension secondary if one picks that direction? Or am I misunderstanding entirely? ¤_¤

I don't see this as a problem, my premise is that Odium is hacking into the existing paradigm of Surgebinding, not that he's granting access to Braizish Surgebinding. It's similar to how Scadrial being 16-centric is not a problem for hemalurgically stolen Surgebinding. Both are accessing an existing system in nonstandard ways, not creating a new system. Ah, I might have been a bit unclear. I was working on this on and off for several hours and had to do revisions when I found things didn't make sense, so I might have missed some explanatory stuff. If I'm getting you right this is about my mapping of Unmade to Radiants, correct? My thinking goes that we have each Order and they have an associated True spren, as well as a cousinspren corresponding to said True spren, that makes their Plate. Several cousinspren have been shown to have access to the Surges in a limited capacity, seemingly only a single Surge per type of spren. Windspren are known to stick things to eachother, a clear use of Adhesion, luckspren let various fauna play fast and loose with gravity, a clear use of Gravitation. I also think that this pattern will hold for every cousinspren, possibly barring gloryspren as Bondsmiths are a bit of an outlier. Thus far, every known expression of a Surge by a cousinspren that was not induced by an outside stimulus has lined up in a certain pattern. If we list the Radiant Orders: Windrunner: Adhesion, Gravitation Skybreaker: Gravitation, Division Dustbringer: Division, Abrasion Edgedancer: Abrasion, Progression Truthwatcher: Progression, Illumination Lightweaver: Illumination, Transformation Elsecaller: Transformation, Transportation Willshaper: Transportation, Cohesion Stoneward: Cohesion, Tension Bondsmith: Tension, Adhesion The known occurences line up with the Surge listed first for the associated Order and I'd expect this pattern to hold. These are the Surges I choose to term Primary. It also makes sense if Re-Shephir is described as a very wrong creationspren, that the other Unmade might be similar. Thus my conclusion that a parallel to Windrunner should be expressing the Surge of Adhesion, same as a windspren. Following the pattern leaves out Tension, as that would be the domain of the non-existent Bondsmith parallel. Incidentally this is also why I've been grumpy about the shanay-im being equated to Windrunners since Oathbringer, I feeel that if Adhesion is missing from the Fused that means there's no Windrunner equivalent. Aww, thanks I'm happy I got around to typing it up and not just bouncing it off my partner and my cousin. ¤_¤

-Edgedancer, chapter 4 -Edgedancer, chapter 7 These are, IMO, clear descriptions of goats and the second quote also gives us a list of traits that make this "horse" different, being shaggy, white and horned, implying that this is not true for regular horses. There's also the fact that the textual description of actual horses people ride have never sounded like they were describing not-a-horse to me and I have experience both with horseback riding and just being around horses because one of my parents used to own a horse. Also, it's unlikely that Brandon wouldn't have steered us right in ten plus years, I don't think he'd play around with common words like that without making it clear. Compare how chicken is used. -Oathbringer, chapter 10 So, a goat's foot looks like this: Pray, how would you shoe that? Keep in mind that goat's hooves grow quickly enough that they need regular trimming if the ground isn't rough, presumably because goats are adapted to rocky terrain. This would then imply that War Goats would be a better fit to the very rocky Roshar than the Rosharan horses, which is definitely a point in favour of camp not-goat. And for completeness, shod horse's hooves: I hope this helps settle this. ¤_¤

Welcome one and all, as I invoke the most potent of muses: half-baked rambling! Part one: Ground work It's probably for the best if I lay down some basic premises that I'm working from for clarity. Premise one: all arcana found on Roshar are, at their root, emanations of the Surges. Surgebinding, Voidbinding, fabrials, the "even more esoteric" system that Khriss theorises in the Roshar essay, the powers of the Unmade, the forms of the singers and whatever else there might be. The possible exception is the Old Magic, which Brandon himself has called its own weird thing. Premise two: Odium is fully capable of granting access to all ten Surges, the lack of Adhesion Fused is deliberate on Rayse's part. It makes more sense to me that he'd just copy/access the existing framework of Surgebinding, rather than building his own, separate 9/10 of Surgebinding. Premise three: there are Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual manifestations of every Surge, as well as "Radiant" and "Voidish" expressions of the same. Part two: What was Rayse afraid of? What do mean by that? Under my interpretation, Rayse deliberately withheld Adhesion from the Fused, which seems odd. Why would he want his servants to only have access to nine of the Surges? Are Bondsmiths not proof that Adhesion can be an incredible boon to your forces? Even if they don't have access to the level of power of a Radiant Bondsmith, they should still have access to the same Adhesion abilities, just weaker. Having a couple of Fused who could act as walking batteries for the extremely Light-hungy Nex-im, for instance, feels like a great force multiplier. We can also infer that Odium can grant access to Adhesion, as a limited expression of it is the simplest explanation for the abilities of envoyform, making the lack of Adhesion Fused even more glaring. You might at this point be wondering why I claim that Rayse was afraid of something, only to blather about why it's weird that there are no Adhesion Fused instead. Worry not, I'll get to that. So, what do we know of Rayse's goals? Rayse wants to be the top dog in the cosmere and he wants to remain Odium. Rayse wants to be free to go on his murder rampage, so he does not want to Invest Odium anywhere, so as to not anchor him to a system. We can even track a possible modus operandi, as the Unmade are implied to have been something else in the past and several Voidspren show the telltale red of corrupted Investiture, which suggests to me that Rayse would typically twist existing things to serve him, rather than creating those things himself. We can also see this in his actions as tempter on Ashyn and his goal to make Rosharan humanity his army, after the cycle of Desolations has toughened them up enough. We also know that prior to the False Desolation and related events Roshar had two Pure Tones, after it had three. This implies to me that something that happened there Invested Odium on Roshar. Something we can guess didn't happen at Rayse's volition. Now, you might ask "why would being Invested be a problem to Rayse? Surely he'd not be morally conflicted at reclaiming any part of his that got Invested somewhere?" And no, I don't think he'd have a moral problem with taking back his power, but I don't think he can, or at least it's hard for him. As other people have already noted, for instance the thread speculating that Division is Odium's Truest Surge, Odium generally stands for something divisive, just as Honor can be seen as uniting. And yes, both can switch places, but hatred generally pushes you away from people and following some form of framework generally makes you part of a group. As just one example, we can see these thematic elements of Odium and Honor in the Surgebinders: Knights Radiant are a union of spren and humans (traditionally), working together to do things neither can do alone. Fused are solitary, forgoing even the normal relationship between spren and singer, as well as casting out the soul of the singer whose body they inhabit. And Odium's forces have other thematic divisions or separations as well: Most of the Fused have lost track of their original goal, being unlikely to relinquish rule to the common singers if they actually won. They are no longer fighting for their stated goal and are thematically separated from themselves. The former parshmen have been denied both the opportunity to make their own future and the ties they gained to the various national cultures of Roshar, they are separated both from their own self-determination and cultural roots. Moash/Vyre is very straightforward, he's separated from his emotions. The Unmade are separated from whatever they were before they were Unmade. And, while he's not known to be on Odium's side, Renarin's bond to an Enlightened spren sets him apart from normal Radiants. So, Odium is a (generally) separating force, so what? Well, that, along with the idiosyncracies noted by robardin, I believe, last week, points to that Odium might have a hard time reclaiming his Investiture. -Oathbringer, chapter 118 -Rhythm of War, chapter 112 -Rhythm of War, chapter 111 For all Rayse's threatening he apparently can't make good on the threat to force the Fused to stay away or to punish a traitor? It seems to be a lot of bluster. So what would Rayse be afraid of? Becoming Invested somewhere, hindering his murder-athon and, by extention, someone else being able to manipulate Odium's Investiture freely. Thus my conclusion is that Rayse wouldn't risk having Bondsmith-alike Fused, on the off chance that they'd so something Bondsmith-y, resulting in some of his power going where he doesn't want it. This might also be why the Everstorm doesn't infuse gems, though I do believe that Voidlight naturally cycles back to Odium, even if it can't be actively reclaimed. Also that Rayse seems like a blithering idiot for not following the Returned design philosophy, but then again, it's entirely possible he couldn't tweak that to run only on Voidlight, rather than Investiture over all. A side-note at the end of this is also that I think it could be possible that the Fused getting a passive and an active effect from their Light might be a conscious design descision on Rayse's part, as an attempt to make less of Odium's Investiture circulate. Part three: Unmade, Surges and cousinspren So, what's the deal? Well, there's this WoB: Which has of course had people trying to find which one maps to which Order, though note that Brandon says it's not a perfect match. I have personally thought that the Unmade should fill the Bondsmith spot, being parallel to the Stormfather and Nightwatcher. I'm fully prepared to accept that this might be the case, that bonding an Unmade produces a Bondsmith, even though the power of the spren itself isn't in the same slot. However, I recently encountered something that shifted my perspective and made me think that this might not be the case. Now, as I stated in part one, I believe that whatever the Unmade powers are, they fully fit within the context of the Surges. I also favour the cousinspren method of parallels, as each cousinspren seems able to manifest the primary Surge of the associated Radiant Order, e.g. windspren known to stick things together, a manifestation of Adhesion. (I do think that properly what I call the primary Surge would be denoted secondary Surge, as otherwise the Radiant Order that lacks a corresponding Fused Brand is Windrunners, not Bondsmiths. But I'm gonna use primary, since that's the order they're listed in.) Now, we need to be conscious of that there are three Unmade we don't really know anything about; Ba-Ado-Mishram, as all her Connection and Bondsmith-seeming shenanigans don't seem to have been a thing before the False Desolation, going by the Gem archive, that being her only known abilities makes it hard to line her up with anything, as it's apparently not her base powerset, Dai-Gonarthis, who is an almost complete unknown and Chemoarish who is much the same. That in mind, let's make a list! Windrunner/Surge of Adhesion Unmade: Yelig-nar I personally believe that Yelig-nar's ability to grant all Surges possibly comes from an application of Adhesion, similar to the Bondsmith ability to manipulate the Surges of other Radiants. He also fits thematically, being known as Blightwind. Skybreaker/Surge of Gravitation Unmade: BAM/Dai-Gonarthis/Chemoarish We have not seen the influence of any Unmade that I would assume uses a form of Gravitation, leaving only the three unknowns. Dustbringer/Surge of Division Unmade: Nergaoul Nergaoul's power could well be a Cognitive manifestation of Division, it both breaks down resolve and discipline and causes people to fight like individuals, not soldiers. Thematically the total loss of control of the Thrill is absolutely counter to the Dustbringer theme of self-mastery. Edgedancer/Surge of Abrasion Unmade: BAM/Dai-Gonarthis/Chemoarish Not much to say here, again I don't think an Unmade we've properly seen the influence of lines up. Thematically Chemoarish might fit, being known as Dustmother, but that is tenuous. Truthwatcher/Surge of Progression Unmade: Moelach Moelach's power to grant access to glimpses of the future might be a manifestation od the Surge of Progression, a Cognitive/Spiritual application of Growth, granting further access to the Spiritual at the Realmatic transition of death. Thematically Moelach grants access to looking at what can or will be, instead of the present truth of what is. Lightweaver/Surge of Illumination Unmade: Re-Shephir Shallan directly compares her to a creationspren, confirmed to be the cousinspren of Cryptics. Thematically she makes tangible darkness where Lightweavers make ephemeral light. Elsecaller/Surge of Transformation Unmade: Sja-anat Sja-anat changes spren, the most straightforward cause of which would be Transformation. Thematically she's also semi-present in both the Physical and Cognitive Realms, in addition, she's called Taker of Secrets, contrasting the scholarly characterisation of the Elsecallers, she aquires the knowledge of others rather than making new knowledge. Willshaper/Surge of Transportation Unmade: BAM/Dai-Gonarthis/Chemoarish The last Surge which no Unmade seems to have exhibited thus far, making it hard to guess. Stoneward/Surge of Cohesion Unmade: Ashertmarn Ashertmarn could be placed in a few different spots, and I myself have previously gone with Abrasion, but after some consideration I think that the power of the Heart of the Revel is possibly a Cognitive manifestation of the Surge of Cohesion, making people soft and pliable. Thematically the hedonism of Ashertmarn can also be seen as an inversion of the Stoneward theme of being where they need to be. Well, that took absolutely forever to type, if you made it here, thanks for reading. I hope it's all (fairly) clear and possible to follow, though I know I tend to ramble. Discussion both welcome and encouraged. ¤_¤

Slight problem: Horses very much also have horizontal pupils. ¤_¤

These are the beliefs of a people who are never implied to be actively cosmere aware. While I do think that the bits about the Long Trail and the Fourth Land are mythologised versions of real things, I don't think that anything pertaining to what lies beyond the Fourth Land has to be accurate or significant, especially given how unreliable future sight is over time. Does that make sense? I never meant to imply there wasn't. I just disagree that it has to play out as the Iriali religion supposes. The fact that they have a role to play in the space age also doesn't mean that that role will line up directly with their religion. Yeah, if indeed the One was a being, it'd have to be one beyond even the greatest spren. There's also a passage in Rhythm of War that might be interesting to this line of reasoning: -Rhythm of War, chapter 31 If this is knowledge that existed when the Iriali got to Roshar I don't think it unlikely that Cultivation got conflated with the One. The descriptor of being everywhere is presumably an easy segue into the the idea of being all-knowing. After all, why wouldn't an omnipresent being be all-knowing, from a human standpoint? So that's what I think likely happened, Cultivation and the One being syncretised and/or conflated based on their percieved attributes in at least some version(s) of the Iriali religion. The last bit being based on how Evi ends up describing the One as a distinct entity that exists, while Ym's story seems to preclude the One maintaining a distinct existence. This implies the possibility that the religion as practiced in Iri and as practiced in Rira might not be exactly alike, similar to how Alethi, Veden and Thaylen Vorinism aren't exactly the same. Or it could just be that different people have come to their own different interpretations, without there being actual doctrinal differences. I wouldn't be suprised if the Iriali religion, with its major focus on individual experience, isn't exactly rigid and dogmatic, so I could definitely see them being fine with personal interpretations of the faith. ¤_¤

That's fair, though why would he be without rhythms now in that case? We also have no reason to believe that he'd be lying to himself about it. Aluminium is Investiture inert, how does that work? Then how do you explain the bit I quoted? It's literally in Rhythm of War. My interpretation is that the rhythms are points between the Pure Tones, which I feel also makes sense with how Odium's rhythms are described as "rhythm of X, the new counterpart to the rhythm of Y." Odium's rhythms being the rhythms of Roshar, but "pitched" into harmony with Odium's Tone. If my interpretation is correct, any two (or more) Pure Tones should give rise to a set of rhythms between them. Also, Raboniel's personal rhythms could basically be a fine-tuning of the relevant senses, along the same lines as perfect pitch. Oh, I'm definitely leaning more fabrial cage of those, as I don't think the metal is Invested. My interpretation of the fabrial stuff in Rhythm of War is that Investiture filtered through/warped by metal produces certain effects, generally consistent with allomancy (which in turn makes sense, Preservation's magic system being a variation of a fundamental interaction, rather than something new). El's metal carapace acting as a way to modify his Surgebinding makes sense to me. (Sidenote, I think that Rosharan fauna, and singers in particular, might count as "naturials," so the fabrial cage idea definitely has merit.) I just lack any reason to believe that they're right about the whole Seventh Land deal. There's no reason for me to believe that this people meandering around the cosmere would just happen to go somewhere significant the sixth time. ¤_¤

From the way it's phrased, that El is forbidden rhythms, I'd assume that it's sort of the flipside of what we see with Raboniel. Raboniel seemingly having been granted personal rhythms, or at least ones that Venli can't attune even in envoyform, and El having his stripped along with his title. Possibly as a sort of "oh, you think humans are so great? See how you like living without rhythms like a human!" Rhythm of War, chapter 116 Rhythm of War, chapter 41 I also think it unlikely that the metal is aluminium, as that would inhibit magical healing. Rhythm of War, chapter 116 Now, I will note that it's weird that he's even able to make his body heal around the metal, rather than regenerating his carapace and pushing the metal out. It's of course possible that his "special talents" lets him mess with what is and isn't considered a part of his body, but that interpretation entirely precludes the inclusions being aluminium, as they should be affected by this power. Excepting any exposed fleshy bits of course, though as seen when Kaladin jumps into Adolin's duel, even partial Shardblade insurance is very good to have. I'm also perfectly willing to agree that, whatever metal it is, it might do something funky, as Rhythm of War, IMO, strongly hints that (certain) metal plus investiture will just Do Stuff(TM) ¤_¤

I'm not sure I'm willing to ascribe actual importance to the Seventh Land. By what mechanism? Why would they leave? Why would they think they could leave? It feels implausible to me that they'd just up and leave to go to some other planet when we've gotten no hints that they're hoarding provisions, finishing up their business and such, as you'd presumably do if you were gonna leave. It might be similar to Veden people having Unkalaki ancestry. The metallic makes me think dragon, so possibly (partial) descendants of stable human-dragon crossbreeds. Human just like the Unkalaki and Herdazians, but not 100% human genetic stock. I'm inclined to think Adonalsium, but someone already brought up a WoB that makes it clear that it's not a direct basis. I'm curious how they could be Splinters, mechanically, unless they functionally have Breaths. I'm assuming that other Fused have seen El incarnate on multiple occasions, if Lezian says that he rips out his carapace and replaces it, I'm inclined to believe him. I read El's whole deal as a compulsive behaviour, unhealthy fascination/obsession with humans (mirroring the Plate that traditionally only humans had) or both. Or something like that. I find that very hard to believe, at least as the basis for the Long Trail and the One in universe. ¤_¤

Beyond one (now edited) contradiction, I'm not sure what you mean. As far as I know everything in my post is internally consistent, barring either/or situations. Feel free to point out what seems contradictory. ¤_¤

It doesn't. The Spiritual is not the Beyond. There's shouldn't be a separate Spiritual Kelsier to meet. With Hoid? That'd be a sight. His Spiritual aspect should already be joined to his Cognitive aspect, when he holds Preservation he just lacks a Connection to the physical. Question is based on false premises. As far as we know, nope. The post-mortem being is pulled Beyond, but no Investiture leaves the cosmere. A Cognitive Shadow is not simply that being, but the Cognitive and Spiritual aspects being Invested to persist (or make an "impression" that thinks it's the person those aspects belonged to.) Kelsier, for instance isn't a Cognitive Shadow until he reaches the Well. Body stays, awareness gets pulled beyond, the Investiture returns to the cosmere. The soul, or Spiritweb, is your Identity, Connection, Investiture and possibly other things. We can see that CS Kelsier must have a Spiritweb still, as he can't leave Scadrial. That's an interesting question, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to, technically, though I have no idea by what means. Ehhhhh? I don't see what the Identity connection is, especially to Harmony. I'd assume that unless the Kelsier identity was wiped he'd still act like Kelsier, which he doesn't really. There's also a couple WoBs: And I think that both "born" and "a Roshar native" might preclude him being a Scadrian Cognitive Shadow 2.0. I've already touched on this, but there should not be a possibility of the Spiritweb being separate from the Cognitive Shadow. Whether or not a Cognitive Shadow is even fake isn't something that's inteneded to be known, but I'd say it could work one of two ways, the actual person, the self if you will, is pulled Beyond, the Investiture making up their Cognitive and Spiritual disperses but new Investiture is pushed in and takes the "shape" of the person's mind and soul, leaving an autonomous entity that is made in the image of the person, thinks and acts like the person, etc., but isnt the person. Or it could work like this; the person starts being pulled Beyond and the Cognitive and Spiritual start to diffuse, but an infusion of Investiture stabilises and anchors them to the cosmere, preventing them from being pulled Beyond automatically, leaving the original self, just with their native Investiture replaced by Investiture from a different source. We don't actually know he'll manage, do we? Though if he does I'd bet on Connection shenanigans. ¤_¤

"Oh, you were talking about MATING!" ¤_¤

Huh, I've always thought that's a property of the healing, just like when Miles stops breathing to steady his aim. So my take is that Light patches up the damage from oxygen deprivation, not that it prevents it. ¤_¤

"Sir, this is the third kidney you're donating!" I'm not sure that's true, that would require being able to metabolise Light into building blocks for the body. Or is your read that as long as you have Light the body draws on that rather than its own reserves? Mind, I totally agree that, assuming infinite fuel, Surgebinding is the best combo-platter. A few other things that any infinite healing could bring would also be perfect eyesight, no skin conditions, no arthritis or other joint problems. Being in perfect physical health and always energised sounds lovely. ¤_¤

Yep, Navani has only sworn the first, as far as we can tell and Dalinar's third was the "If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man" bit. Now, we know that the Ideals, even within an order, aren't uniform, just that they follow a theme. Look at Kaladin, Teft and Lopen's Third Ideals: "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right," "I will protect those I hate. Even...even if the one I hate most is... myself" and "I've got to protect people, you know? Even from myself." Different expressions of (somewhat) similar themes. Given the seeming theme of the Third Ideal of the Bondsmiths and Navani's whole "I'm not good enough to have imposter syndrome"-shtick, I could definitely see her variant as something along the lines of "Storm you, Gavilar, I'm a scientist!" ¤_¤

Hmm, maybe. We must interpret the WoBs very differently then, I see a loss of power, which is a known property of enhanced allomantic lineages. The original mistborn made with lerasium gave rise to lineages that eventually mostly produced non-allomancers, the power weakening over generations until it hits an equilibrium is a known property. So those WoBs don't imply a statistically even distribution of allomantic heritage to me, just that allomancy has hit its natural power level. Brandon even says that the limited number of progenitors is a factor, which implies few allomantic lines, not that everyone is part of an allomantic line. Does that make sense? ¤_¤

Oh, neat, other people also say "Thornlight." In short, yes. I've been hoping Sja-anat would bond someone since Oathbringer. My conception has long been that, theoretically, if it goes in a gemheart, it goes in a fabrial, it goes in a bond. That is, if it has a valid output in any of these three paradigms, it theoretically has a valid output in all of them. Though I don't think that there's a gemheart large enough to house, say, the Stormfather practically, theoretically a valid result must exist. Then there's my favourite WoB: Which definitely makes it sound valid. Personally I'd hazard that bonding Unmade would produce Bondsmiths or Bondsmith-adjacents. That is really, really odd, as Connection-shenanigans are definitely a Bondsmith thing. So, I'm guessing this is the relevant WoB: Where Brandon even admits it's not perfectly clear-cut. I personally think that Cusicesh is theoretically bondable, the bond just wouldn't make a member of the Order of Bondsmiths, a bit like bonding a windspren won't make you part of the Order of Windrunners. In both cases I could see the spren granting the exact same Surges, but not making Radiants, if that makes sense. Relevant WoB: From this we learn two things, that a Stormfather counterpart for the Everstorm wouldn't naturally become a Bondsmith spren, and that there are requirements for becoming a Radiant spren. This makes perfect sense to me, preventing subspren from bonding humans makes sense both in light of Ishar's whole "precepts and laws" thing and Nohadon lamenting that not all spren are as discerning as Honorspren. Asking Honor to limit exactly what kind of spren can make Surgebinders while codifying the Radiants makes perfect sense. Even if such Surgebinders wouldn't wield their Surges as powerfully they could be extremely numerous and have far too much freedom, as a subspren would probably be inadequate to judge oaths. I wouldn't be suprised at all if Radiant spren are an artificial category, being spren allowed to form Radiant bonds, with all the limitations that implies, as opposed to unrestricted bonds. Bondsmith spren can then be seen as a subcategory of Radiant spren, that is spren whose bonds make Bondsmith Radiants, rather than spren who theoretically make Surgebinders capable of Bondsmithing, the latter being neither Radiant spren nor Bondsmith spren. This interpretation has always baffled me somewhat. The Sibling says -Rhythm of War, chapter 42 And this might just be a semantic quibble, but I've interpreted this as "I will be like one of the Unmade" not "I will be one of the Unmade." I've never gotten the impression that the Sibling would become a tenth Unmade, so I don't see the process they're put through as Unmaking. The entire section following this is quite interesting, as though I've wanted to see Unmade bonded since Oathbringer, I've always assumed the product goes in the Bondsmith slot, "Voidsmith" if you will. But seeing how several of the Unmade have powers that line up with the Surges and Radiant spren (and their cousin spren) have some command of the Surges they grant, the bondmates of Unmade might well exhibit powers based on the respective Unmade. All that in mind, let's theorise. Unmade in general: If powers line up with the respective Unmade, possibly Surge/Voidbinders of the non-Bondsmith orders/analogues, at roughly Bondsmith power level, probably have the Bondsmith drawback of no Blade. Mishram: Shoo-in for Bondsmith/Voidsmith, supplies Light, does Connection stuff, seems very Bondsmith-y, assuming that the Surge pair pattern holds, possibly Windrunner analougue, though Bondsmith seems a better fit, assuming one order per Unmade Yelig-nar: Windrunner analogue, has the theme with Blightwind, personal theory that his manipulation of all Surges is in fact an application of Adhesion allowing manipulation of other Surges similar to what's seen in Bondsmiths, could possibly allow bondmate to act as a super empowerer granting others the use of Surges temporarily, also works as a nice paralell to Windrunner Squires Sja-anat: Elsecaller analogue, Surge of Transformation, simultaneous presence in both Cognitive and Physical fits thematically, neat interactions unclear, turbo-Jasnah terrifying Re-Shephir: clear Lightweaver analogue, described as being like a creationspren but very wrong, creationspren being the cousinspren of Cryptics lines up, makes something like illusions with mass, fits thematically, would presumably fight like a minion master, possibility of non-life solid holograms also cool, hard-light buildings, armour, instant walls, bridges, all very neat Moelach: probable Truthwatcher analogue, future-sight, Bondsmith-level Renarin, feasability of bond unclear, oaths may or may not work with non-sapient spren Nergaoul: possible Edgedancer, Dustbringer, Willshaper or Stoneward analogue, power probably Cognitive manifestation of Cohesion, Progression or Abrasion, bond could possibly allow for selective application of power, sending only enemies into berserker rage, could possibly allow other mental states to be induced as well, such as supreme discipline, focus or will to fight, without the mindless aspect, Cohesion or Progression more likely than Abrasion IMO, mindless Unmade, bond feasability unclear Ashertmarn: probable Edgedancer or Dustbringer analogue, power likely Cognitive manifestation of Abrasion, essentially mental Slicking, makes it easier for people to give in to their desires, bondmate possible ultra-Breeze, mindless problem Chemoarish and Dai-Gonarthis: too little information to speculate, fill two of the spots of Willshaper, Stoneward and Skybreaker, assuming Ashertmarn to take the Dustbringer spot and Nergaoul Edgedancer ¤_¤

Please do, while I've read Alloy something like nine times it's definitely been a while since I properly read Era 2. But why target allomancers? If any given pregnancy is just as likely to produce an allomancer, why conclude that they plan to breed allomancers? I'm not saying that the conclusion is correct, I'm saying that the conclusion should make sense. So if there's not a higher likelyhood that these women would bear allomancer children then the breeding conclusion makes no sense. The genes being evenly distributed accross the entire population and the conclusion being plausible can't both be true simultaneously. ¤_¤

I think Rhythm of War offers a couple counterpoints: -Rhythm of War, chapter 15 -Rhythm of War, chapters 84 and 89, epigraphs These, plus Hoid's displayed use of Investiture for memory storage, imply a few things. Over time a Cognitive Shadow will warp, just like a Vessel, to be more in line with the power suffusing them and a human (or human-adjacent) mind is implied not to be able to deal with the amount of data that multiple lifetimes provide. Kelek writes that the centuries blur together for him, so it seems likely that external storage (or expanded mental capacity) has to be employed to avoid degradation or replacement of memory. I find it not unlikely that sheer age/information overload might account for some of the Heralds' mental states and the warping to align more with their intent isn't unlikely to be responsible for some of it as well. We also know from a WoB that Cognitive Shadows are affected by people's perception of them: So the Heralds are plausibly experiencing at least four different things that might take a toll on their mental states. 1, they've simply lived too long without a mental out, like memory storage 2, they're warped by the Intent of the power that made them Cognitive Shadows 3, they are affected by perception and as major historical and religious figures there's a lot of thinking about them 4, they spent a long time dying, being tortured, being reborn, repeat So while not every Cognitive Shadow is at risk of going quite as bananas (fresh from Shinovar), point one should apply to any mortal who lives for too long and points two and three would be potential problems for any Cognitive Shadow. So age alone might not cause insanity, per se, but I'd say it definitely looks like a probable cause of mental degradation. The Sibling was meant to be the bridge between men and spren, not men an Honor. That's an interesting idea, though to me it looks like Deadeyes are more closely tied to the Cognitive than living Nahel spren are, an unsummoned Deadeye is in the cognitive, an unsummoned Nahel spren is in the Physical. There's also a difference between being bodily brought into the Physical, being manifested as an object in the Physical and transitioning Realms. Syl spent a long time nearly mindless in the Physical without dying, for instance, and I don't think that a Deadeye would necessarily fare any better than a live spren if bodily brought into the Physical. I don't think the effect on the Heralds can have been instantaneous, I'd hazard that they were injured in a way similar to the spren, in that they've aquired a blockage or frailty that hinders healing or exasperates damage. Honestly, it fits thematically that all the entities touched my the imprisonment lost their minds, quite literally for the singers and Deadeyes, more figuratively for the Heralds. The sealing of Mishram also didn't cause the Nahel spren to precipitate out as Blades, so I'm not sure I follow the Investiture state thing, especially when Shardblades predate the Recreance. That doesn't really make sense to me. Most of the Nahel spren didn't have every mature spren bonded at the time of the Recreance, so several types should have had members who noticed that the Pure Tones were gone. The Sibling can also hear Cultivation's Tone still, though this might be because Cultvation helped them regain it while Honor was busy being insane, though then Cultivation should have helped the rest of the spren too, which would still end up with a discrepancy in what Tones the spren could hear. I also find it likely that the normal Rhythms exist between the Tones of Honor and Cultivation and if Melishi managed to block those from all spren the Listeners would have been without too. ¤_¤

Hmm, fair. While I was aware of the linguistic root I hadn't considered just how Preservation-focused the Terris faith was. The implication is then that Terris is an offshoot of an earlier dualistic faith (eventually) founded by Shardic intervention, one that has at least one other extant descendant at the end of the Era of Ash, as otherwise Leras' statement makes no sense. If one exists it has to be in the South, religions didn't really survive in the North after all. That is, while knowledge of the religions, rituals, etc. survived, the faiths themselves didn't. So there might be a Ruin-focused offshoot, though a recent one, or it might not have persisted, or the faith might have died. It is a very interesting thought that the Jaggenmire might be another descendant of the pre-Terris faith. In any case, this doesn't invalidate my argument, Leras mentions "our religion" singular, which is the most important part. It has given me a very interesting perspective, so thanks for that. ¤_¤

I'd argue that the quoted section doesn't invalidate the presumed plan. It doesn't make sense for Wax to conclude that the plan is to breed allomancers if there's no basis for the conclusion. If any random pregnancy is just as likely to produce an allomancer then why is that seen as a plausible motive? Also, the kidnappings were legit, IIRC, it's not like they were just a smokescreen for the insurance fraud. Building on this, in Secret History Leras mentions that Ati is changing "our religion," (or something like that) implying that the Terris religion on Classical Scadrial was started by the Shards, but from the few glimpses we get it doesn't seem like it was exactly a majority faith, even if their prophecy became a big deal. And even then, in however many thousand years, they apparently only started one religion, which doesn't really scream "WE ARE THE TRUE GODS, WORSHIP US EXCLUSIVELY!" Indeed Moash's grandparents, being silversmiths in the capital, might be a better pick than the overqualified backwater surgeon, though as I observed earlier, social class gets complicated under Vorinism. ¤_¤

Survivorism grew out of Kelsier's (intended) sacrifice as a martyr, not his preservation. The faith is, as far as we know, wholly unconnected to his actual persisting. I don't think that's a statement we can make so certainly, we've not met all the Vessels yet. Yes, it's not that the genes are distributed across the entire population, just that the level of power won't dilute more. And a bunch of people who aren't Kholins. Shallan should be discounted (assuming that she's the spouse) as she was Radiant before her marriage was even thought of, ergo her radiance is not tied to the Kholin family. I'm not saying that the Kholin cluster of Radiants doesn't look anomalous, but we've really not seen how bonds are developing at large, so it might be that a lot of people suddenly find themselves with a spren once a family member has sworn some oaths. Also, pretty much every surviving member of Bridge 4 bonded a spren, which is also a weird statistical cluster of people with a close connection. Pedantry, surgeon's son. Do you know what he wasn't as a surgeon's apprentice? A Windrunner. Ohh, this is interesting, because social class is wonky under Vorinism. We know Kaladin was a citizen, so someone with rights, of the next highest rank within the lower class. We know that he could have theoretically married low nobility. So far, so good. However, according to the highly available Wikipedia: I think that Lirin's household would not qualify for comfortable income. I think Lirin wanted Kaladin to attain something like upper middle class, getting properly educated in fancy abroads parts and all, but he never got there, on account of joining the army. I'd hazard middle class, personally, though it's somewhat complicated by the fact that Lighteyes of poorer economic standing still have a higher status and such. The whole Lighteyes/Darkeyes setup complicates the middle social rung especially. ¤_¤