Raistlin

Hi All, I know I'm late to the party, but I've finished RoW only a few days ago and wanted to share my thoughts on it. Overall, I think the best way to describe my impression of the book is to refer to the general from the beginning of it, who said "the world is changing and I'm not sure if I should be happy about it or not". In a lot of ways, I feel like all the building blocks I was given before did create a tower, just for it to be immediately knocked over. And while there were individual awesome moments in the book, the sum of the parts was lesser than the whole. That said, I am aware that it's the 1st readthrough and I'll probably change my mind about some of the things during the re-read I'll try to break down my thoughts per character and hope I manage to cover the main points without forgetting anything (which will probably happen). Warning - Long post Navani "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds" - I didn't feel like she's a strong enough character to be a main POV. For me, her main role in this book is to provide the info dump (of a LOT of new information) and most of her chapters read like a physics lecture (and equally boring). In character personalization terms, I liked her even less. For the entire time we've known her, her thing was that she's "not a scholar". However, with the lack of explanation of what "a scholar" IS, I read it as academic achievement. As is- her expected role in life (noblewoman, wife of the king, etc) prevented her from going to college and getting a degree. I understand that this is sore point for her, apparently to a level where her entire identity is tied in this concept, but I never got a feeling that she's not a scholar because she tried to be and was lacking in some way or that she thinks she's just not smart enough. There was an attempt to bring some other self-esteem issues in earlier chapters but the main beat is still the scholarly thing and it remains to be the beat she marches to for the rest of the book. Once she gets the opportunity to just sit and study, she discards all other concerns and just ENJOYS the opportunity to study (I know that she also makes traps and stuff, but it feels like an afterthought to THE KNOWLEDGE). Her devotion to knowledge for the sake of knowledge (and disregard of any implications and potential harmful uses for her discoveries) actually reminded me of Jasnah and her mindset. This is why I agree with the tower spern- In my opinion, Navani is still not worthy of the bond. I know that she had a personal breakthrough and finally managed to get that desired official MA, but that doesn't relate to the reasons the spern didn't want to bond with her in the first place. The spern has issues with the fact that Navani is developing technology that kills spern. To which Navani constantly replies "sure, we'll find a way to work around it. Someday. In the meantime, look at what new cool thing I discovered, that's potentially even more dangerous to you and spernkind". For me, the only reason Navani managed to bond the tower is that for the tower it was a choice of bonding Navani or dying. Life before death in its finest. Navani's strength as a character, for me, was always the small moments like when she misses her son or being so overwhelmed by grief that she runs outside to write a huge glyph, or fears Szeth (because, honestly, he's terrifying and for some reason everyone else ignores it), and I wish we had more moments like these from her in this book. * Apparently, she's also a genius as she's learned all of science and discovered quantum physics in only two weeks. Dalinar - his time in the book was mostly a setup for the next one so I have nothing much to say about him. I did like his interaction with Syl - it was adorable! I will say that I, as a reader, have no idea what was possible to do or not so stormafather shouting "it's impossible" all the time was pointless after a while. Renarin - It's starting to get annoying how he always shows up, says something cryptic, and then we don't hear about him again until the next time he does it. I suspect that he's not getting any screentime is because spending time with him will reveal some "big secret" that is planned to be grandly revealed in later books. Jasnah - I like her and she's usually one of my favorite characters, but this time I got the feeling that the book is leaning heavily on her superior intellect to a point she's a bit like a computer that's trying to learn human emotions. In a way, she's trying to be more like Navani (emotions over intellect) while Navani is going through the opposite process. She also reminded me of Taravangian, in the way that he has emotions completely separated from intellect (though in his case, the separation is manufactured). However, while the smart Tav belittles the emotions of the stupid Tav, the smart Jasnah is actively trying to learn emotions. Plot-wise I have no idea where she's headed but I don't think she'll stop at being the queen. Maybe she'll pick up a shard? perhaps Odium himself? Adolin- Nothing to say except that he's awesome It is convenient though, that Maya was called as a witness. I wonder what would have happened if it went any other way. His father issues also parallel those of Kaladin in a nice way, though I'm not sure what Adolin thinks Dalinar wants him to be (unlike Lirin, where it's clear what he expects from Kaladin). Shallan - Ugh. Just ugh. I am so done with her. I know there are theories that she's going to be a world hopper, and what can I say except- bon voyage, Shallan. Bon voyage. Storywise- I did think that formless was the spy and that she wrangled Pattern and the others to play along with her and the truth seemed a bit underwhelming since the formless buildup seemed waisted. I also thought that the big secret she's trying to forget was the existence of another (now dead, by Shallan's hands) sibling. Or that the mom is not her real mom (since the real mom is dead, again, by Shallan). The second spern reveal is also underwhelming, mainly because it was an option that was never presented to us. They did meet the deadeye earlier in the book, but without any context to the meeting, the final reveal felt disconnected. It is believable, in terms of world-building, but it felt like it came out of the blue just for the surprise effect. I also have a question about the early bond- I know we haven't seen any children boding spren (aside from Lift, but she didn't say the ideals until much later) and I certainly don't belittle the pain of a lonely child, but shouldn't the ideals come with INTENT? I mean, it's not enough to just say the words. They also have to mean something so that implies an understanding of greater ideals, something I'm not sure a child under 11 is capable of. In the end, I feel like Shallan didn't make much progress herself. She did react to outside events that forced her to face whatever issues she had, but that's because she had absolutely no other choice. No change felt like it originated from within her and any personal growth and healing. When left to her own devices, her progress was actually going backward and hiding (to a point she created yet another persona). Honestly, the best part was when even Veil (a fragment of Shallan herself!) was so fed up with Shallan that she threw the towel and just LEFT. Hilarious! ** We all remember that Shallan killed Ilai, right? which is funny since Shallan's husband killed Ilai's husband. Perhaps it's a couple's thing? A couple that murders another couple together and all? Going forward, I want the two of them to break up, perhaps on the grounds of her going traveling while he doesn't want to/ can't join. I don't actually mind them together that much but this breakup will provide him a chance to stand up for himself (and not play along with whatever crazy new idea she got) and for her to have a conflict from her "new life" that's not directly connected to her past trauma. Let's see how she manages in life when she doesn't have the past to fall back onto as an excuse. Venli- Just like Navani, I feel like her main purpose as a main character is the info dump, just from another point of view. Just like Navani, Venli is also not a strong character to pull of so much screen time since both were extremely passive throughout the book. However, Unlike Navani, who at least was passionate about science, I didn't get any driving forces in Venli that could make for an interesting read. We did get the flashbacks that were engaging, but today's Venli just wants to run and hide somewhere and cares for little else. Even the underground group she formed feels like a side effect of her wish to run away and less like a determined goal to save the listeners. It does change towards the end of the book, especially after she discovers her Listeners powers (which are really cool btw) but still, the overall arc was not an engaging read. Just to clarify, I did like her story and her personal struggles with her past self and the end resolution, I just think it's not enough to hold for half of the book. ** It is nice that some of the fused decide to go with her to search for the lost tribe, but how will that work? Aren't their powers directly tied to Odium? what will happen when they're not connected to him anymore? And aren't their powers directly tied to Odium? As in, he can pinpoint them regardless of where they are? Is that a good idea to take them to the same people who try to hide from him? Kaladin- I will confess that I did try to read the book when it just came out and had to stop. The problem was that I started reading it when I was in a difficult place in my personal life, and Kal's story was too difficult for me to handle at the time, especially since there were no other characters strong enough to provide a counter view to his encompassing depression. Now that I did finish the book, all I can say is that - that's some really depressing stuff. Seriously, how much abuse can he take? Poor Kal. I'm glad that we finally got the 4th ideal but thematically, I expected it to be something else. I know that the ideal was guessed for a while now, but based on the struggles he went through in this book specifically, I thought it would be something like "I accept that not all should be protected in the same way" or something similar to this idea. I mean, he did invent mental health! Either way, 4th ideal. Yay! (and another convenience that Dalinar chose this specific storm to join stormfather). ** Lirin - I get the hate. I really do. For me, it's less about the pacifism and more about how it's tied with the image he has of Kal. Nothing aside from Kal being a surgeon will ever be good enough for Lirin, regardless of the number of weapons involved. I mean, Kal could have decided he wants to be a merchant but it still would disappoint Lirin. I do find it interesting though, that for both of them (father and son) there is only one idea of what fighting is. Not one of them raises the option of other ways to fight, like being a lawyer, for example (and inventing the justice system), or being a reporter (and inventing journalism), or even doing underground graffiti (and inventing graffiti, I guess). ** Syl- she's still great. I'm looking forward to seeing how her relationship with Kal evolves now that she's a grownup. *** I think Kal is destined to die. I hope I'm wrong, but he's the Stormblessed and now people follow his ideal. I think he'll be Kelzeir of this world - will become the legend to fuel the resistance for the second arc of the war. Notable mentions: New Odium- So cool. Did not see it coming at all. What will that mean for the magic systems? From what I understood, the magic rules were made by the shards, but designed by the beares. What will happen now when someone else has the shard? Szeth- Was he always this crazy? I also mentioned this before, but how is it that Navani is the only one to fear him? I feel like it's the natural response to him (aside from the assassin thing, he's also extremely creepy). Also, to think that all this could have ended if he just told Dalinar that Taravengian wants to talk with him for some reason. Boo Szeth. Lift- has a chicken now! She's also growing up, and it will be interesting to see how she deals with it. I imagine with a lot of grace and poise. Moash- F* Moash. But also, when he got blind, I couldn't help but remember the Melorian books by D.Eddigns where some people got permanently blind after seeing "the true face of god". I'm sure there are many other literary (real or fiction) pieces that mention similar things, but the Melorian is what came to my mind. Wit - I admit that I didn't like the world-hopping existence in previous books, but I was fine with it now since it's finally part of THIS world and not just a basket of easter eggs. I'm not a fan of wordplays or the smug all-knowing-but-will-not-tell-you-just-because characters so Wit never held any special interest for me and was even annoying at times. I am happy that he lost his memories since now it feels like a fair playing ground for everyone. It also indicates that the cosmere rules have been changed, which might provide an unexpected advantage for the heroes. Speaking of World hoppers - I understood that the leader was confirmed to be Kelzier. Now, I remember him being sided with the good guys (even though he went about it in a very roundabout way), so I'm guessing the GB will be the misunderstood ones and their goals are actually very philanthropic. My guess is that they're trying to resurrect the original god/ create a new one but they want to be the only ones to do it (that's why they're targeting others who know about the cosmere). Why would they want to do it? Not sure. Perhaps because they want to have one true god since "things were better back then", or "this is the natural state of the world and what we have now is an abomination". In any case, this is the danger to Roshar everyone is referring to because for the creation of the god there will be a need to combine all shards, and what will happen to the worlds they created when the shards are called home?

I just finished the book and everything still needs time (and maybe a reread) to settle down but so far I have to admit that out of the three published so far, this one is my least favorite. Of course there were parts I really enjoyed but the end result lacked that epic feeling I got used to from SA 1&2. There was a lot of emphasis on politics and while I agree that it's very realistic and very necessary in building a wartime alliance from scratch, it was also a tedious read. I just couldn't find the energy to care about any of it. Shadesmear arc was also hard to read. It's awesome as world building goes, but it separated the story into two completely unrelated story arcs, both equally boring where nothing seemed to move anywhere. Reminded me of LOTR 1 where it took the hobbits 50 pages just to leave the shire only to end up in the forest for another 150 pages. Also LOTR 2 and 3. Too many new characters and nations made it difficult for me to care about any of them and took screen time from the characters I learned to love from previous books. The City of the last battle? Shame what happened, but the only interesting thing about it is Dalinar and the radiants and really, that last battle could have been anywhere.. Dalinar is awesome and his defiance of Odium was pure awesomeness and I want to see him being this awesome all the time. On the other hand, his backstory felt a bit off. Evi's death was a horrid event but in the end, it wasn't the thing that triggered Dalinar's breakdown and her voice was just another one in a sea of crying victims. When Dalinar went looking for NightWatcher he didn't want to ask for anything directly related to her. With all the mystery surrounding his wife's memory it was a bit underwhelming to learn that her vanished memory was an afterthought. I liked part 3 (?) with the different POVs from Bridge Four. I hope we get to see more from them, especially the parshman. He's cool. I also hope they still remain as a group seeing how half of them are radiants now. Kaladin is still a favorite and it's a shame that he didn't have more screen time. I was anticipating his fourth ideal but I like it that he couldn't say it yet. Makes sense in the story and gives something to look forward to. I do wish he would stop with the identity/morality-crisis-per-book thing he has going on. I feel like we're going in circles. Adolin is another favorite and while I know that he wasn't a popular character, I hope this book will change minds about that. I wish him and Maya only the best. Dalinar's reaction to the murder felt out of character for him, but maybe it will be addressed again in later books. Shallan is not a favorite. I'm sorry, but I just can't seem to like her. At all. Book 2 did warm her to me, but it was all ruined in this one. I don't know why but something with her just doesn't sit well. And how does her powers work? Everyone else have some kind of explanation but lightweaving is so weird. Shallan also seems like a prodigy of sorts. I can believe that others have off-screen training but with Shallan we're there for every step of the way and she still does stuff just because. She can't make illusions with sound but then she can. She has to have a picture as a basis until she doesn't. Was it mentioned anywhere? What did I miss? I do like Veil though. Shallan is clearly crazy so I have hope for Veil to be a free agent at some point. Szeth and Lift should only go on adventures with each other. I petition for a book (or a very long novel) about the two of them roaming the world and maybe solving crimes. Skybreakers as an order are very orderly. I hope Szeth learned as much as he can from them and will teach the other new radiants about the, well, order of the orders. At this point the word "order" has lost its meaning, but I hope my point is clear. Venli is a nice addition to the cast. I'm curious to see what will happen to her. I hope the tiny spern (Timber? Tinder?) is not Eshonai herself because that will be another dead character being not so dead after all. It's nice, but let me grieve for Eshonai (who was awesome) and move on. Renarin is kinda there? I know he and his spern are a never-to-be-seen-before wonder but more attention to the character wouldn't have hurt. Ellokhar will be missed, I guess. He is one of the characters that suffered the most from the multitude of new charcters and POVs in this book. He finally got some focus on himself and really grew as a character but I can't shake the feeling that if it was a less crowded book, I would have cared more about his death. Odium is a surprise. I didn't think he'll take an active part in the war. I thought he's only an influencing force but here he is, doing things, commanding stuff. The parshmen are interesting. I honestly didn't expect their rebellion to be so ordinary and organized. It was a really refreshing take on "the forces of evil going on destroying the world". Worldhoppers and Cosmere. I know that Roshar is part of the cosmere and all, but I feel like this book crossed the line between funny references to active interference. Azure is not a minor character at all and has more story time than Renarin! I might be in the minority in this, but I really don't like the idea (or the execution, in this case) of cross worlds story line. Let each world stand on its own. I did read the relevant books (even though I don't remember them in detail) and I'm curious to know what new readers think about it.

What are the theories about Dalinar's wife and the Nightwatcher? I think that she must have died very closely to Dalinar's visit to Nightwatcher, and there is a connection (maybe even the cause of or the result of) but I can't guess what it is. The best I could come up with is that Dalinar wanted to know something (perhaps about his brother's assassination -what did he know/ planned to do that was so dangerous) badly enough to risk a trip to the Nightwatcher and she gave him that knowledge (or pointed him in the right direction) and in return took away the knowledge about his wife. Possibly with the physical removal of said wife. Or maybe he was involved in her death somehow and wanted to forget, in which case the forgetfulness is actually the boon and the curse is something else. Either way, I'm curious about what others have to say about that.

My knowledge of the Cosmere is a bit wonky, but I from what I gathered there was a One True God that broke into pieces which were picked up by people who then went to/created other worlds and, in a way, became the embodiment of the piece they picked. From what I remember from Mistborn, the carriers of the shards can die and "drop" the shards for someone else to pick them up. So my question is- why can't someone else pick up Honor's shard? I guess the process is not that simple, and the people are not generally aware of the existence of shards and the technical aspects of their gods, but there's still a living shard (Cultivation) so the idea, at least, should have come up at some point.. I can maybe understand why no one did it so far, but now with the desolation coming on why can't someone pick up the shard and help with the war efforts?

Thank you all for your replies! I'm still thoroughly confused about the Bondsmiths but at least now I know it's not because I didn't pay attention while reading and missed some vital information.. I remember finishing the book and actually feeling annoyed since Dalinar seemed to skip the entire learning curve I came to expect from the new generation KRs (even with the minor characters like Lift and Renarin I assumed there was some off - screen evolution of their abilities). Not only that, but he went from 0 to 180 in less than a minute and all the people around him just accepted him being a Bondsmith without any further comments, like they all know what it means and just went with it.

If I understood correctly, after a human forms a bond with a spern he/she gain special abilities that the non bonded humans are not capable of. The actual "superpowers" vary (some people can ride storms/see the future/make illusions etc.) but the point stands. The bond with a spern grants the people the ability to manipulate the world in a way that they couldn't do before (and then they may be sorted to the different KR orders that correlate to these abilities). That's why I have trouble understanding the bondsmiths. What are their superpowers? What is it that they actually DO? Are they, in any way, necessary to bond spern to humans? are they the supervisors of the creation of the bonds? force bonds when ones are not created naturally? severe bonds? change bonds? create bonds with more than one spern? The only bondsmith I know about is Dalinar and he's doesn't seem to be doing anything he couldn't have done without the bond/ stormlight. He's supposed to "unite them all" but unless the meaning is to "make all people bond with spern" I don't see what so special about that command. He's a political and a military leader so while it might sound very difficult to achieve, I don't think it's so impossible that he will need to be a KR to do it.

Thanks for putting things in order for me, though I'll confess that I'm a bit disappointed since I thought myself very clever for a moment... That's what confused me in the first place. Since Dallinar and Kaladin follow a similar code and Jasnah and Shalan a different (similar) one, I figured that it might be because the "source" that's responsible for their specific surges is different. Maybe all Honor spern require similar morality in their bonded humans? and Cultivation spern need a different one? I thought that Roshar had 3 shards when Honor and Cultivation are 2 of them ? I actually imagined something like 5 orders with spern bonds of Honor and 5 of Cultivation, all working together for a greater purpose . Like people working in the same company (hence the same first order) but in different departments and under different management. The male/female comparisons came partially from that and partially from the actual characters. About Adolin- was it ever mentioned that he's a KR (present or future)?

Hi, I'm new in the forum so I apologize in advance if this topic was already discussed before. I've just finished reading WOR and came across Tor.com reread where someone mentioned Jasnah's questionable morality (the assassins she employed, the guys in the alley and maybe some other people she killed that I don't remember). With Shallan's own kill count, and the lack of general remorse, that puts both of them in odds with Dalinar and Kaladin. I assumed that the KR all share the same strict moral code and that their powers all come from Honor but Jasnah and Shallan don't seem to follow that code and yet have their own abilities. My new theory, until proven otherwise, is that not all KR orders get their abilities from Honor but from a different source as well, in this case- Cultivation. Yes, all powers come from the spern who are pieces of Honor (even though I only remember them being pieces of GOD without naming Honor specifically) but the type of spern and the bond they form with humans can vary between the two. It also matches the male characterization of Honor (Dallinar and Kaladin) vs. the female Cultivation (Jasnash and Shallan). I'll leave out, for the time being, the implications on the nature of female morality that might come with this theory. I'd appreciate any thoughts on this

Thank you both:) My Friend IS here somewhere but I don't know his username. I'd be an allomancer. I'm too impatient for anything else.. Warbreaker and Elantris are definitely on the list

Hi All, I've discovered Sanderson's work through WOT and a glowing recommendation of a friend who's a big cosmere fan. So far I've read Mistborn (the original trilogy) and both Stormlight books. During the Mistborn read, I used to bounce ideas and theories with friends but we didn't have a chance to do so for WOR, so here I am... To throw my ideas out there and see how much I manage to get right (from past experience it's not much)..