Harbour

I listened to this video and BS said the following: "You can execute the method of "opposites attract" which works well or characters can have similar interests so they enhance each other when they are together". Would i make a mistake if say that BS used BOTH methods to do Shalladin? In many senses Kaladin and Shallan are the opposites, but we really see that both of them has if not common interests but the common view on many various things. Just remembered the scene in the WoR where Shallan draw the piece of the rock. Adolin went away, not interested and Kaladin stayed to demonstrate his interest in Shallan's picture and rock's formation. There are couple of those in OB too, where both Shallan and Kaladin demonstrate the similar interest in some things. And they enhance each other really good. Shallan brainstorms usually came when Kaladin is talking around her.

Ironic. The only reason Shallan was betrothed was to protect her brothers. And right before her marriage her brothers turned back safe and betrothal has no purpose now. Now the only reason for her to marry Adolin is, i guess, love(?)

Ah, btw, maybe im too into symbolism and subtle hints but its interesting that Gavinor, the kid, was saved and brought to Kaladin by Kaladin's men and Shallan's men. Nice touch.

I doubt Shallan and Adolin will have a kids in the 4th book. We have enough kids in OB to introduce the new one as a sideline anchors for the main characters. Sometimes BS doesnt have the time even for the main characters to deal with their problems, im not even talking about the whole new bunch of problems related to the kids. Kaladin has a brother to care about, and i suspect Elhokar's son would be among those things Elhokar passed to Kaladin. And im not sure it will be good for pacing and character development to introduced the new one kid/kids for Shallan and Adolin. They have enough problems to deal with besides the parentage.

My theory is simple - Windrunner's Ideals are related to Herald's Two Attributes. Based on that theory we can predict the theme of Ideals left unrevealed. Jezrien's attributes: Protecting and Leading. Now lets check out two Windrunner's Ideals: As you can see Second and Third Ideals are in fact related to Herald First Attribute, Protecting. That leads us to the idea that the Fourth Ideal will have to do with Leading, and Fifth one with Leading or Leading/Protecting. I think Kaladin wanted to say something like "I Will Lead Those Who Are Able To Be Led", echoing with the scene of Parshendi and Humans killing each other while Kaladin froze in shock. That means Kaladin will accept the fact that he can't force everyone to do to what he wants just because he wants it. He can't accept it yet while he know he should. Thats why he knew the words but couldnt spoke them.

Holy cow, there are two more pages. In before ill start reading them i should say that i wanted to listen again to some Disney classic songs. And yeah, i totally got the Kaladin/Shallan/Fly Away together vibe listening to Aladdin (isn't that interesting name similarity) and Jasmine singing "A Whole New World" song. Needless to say that Kaladin dreamed to show Shallan how to really fly, and Shallan dreamed about Kaladin flying her to see the world better, just like the heroes of the Disney tale.

No one answered me yet. Can we consider it as weird flirting? Ill change it from subtle to more straightforward.

That thing is the one that looks like an amateur attempt to sink the ship. I feel BS failed to show that Kaladin need to work on his social skills before dropping this scene. He is pretty good in them. The one scene with Lyn wasn't enough. And that Kaladin's line would bother me at least until the next book. It felt so unnaturally awful. I mean, its like an opposite of the chasms scene. Was that the attempt to sink the ship? I doubt it. Was it a lame writing? Id say yes. BS could use the different form of line to create the rift between Shallan and Kaladin, not to make Kaladin sound like an insensible dummy he never was.

Mindblown. She totally didnt listen to Wit.

In regards of Kaladin's ability to heal Shallan i should add that he is the battle surgeon. In fantasy there is the common trope of the King with Healing Hands, and overall Kaladin always gave me the Aragorn vibe. So yeah, its totally possible that Kaladin would be able figuratively speaking to heal Shallan. Wonder how Sanderson will play with this trope.

Please, dont say that there is so much of the series left because i start to calculate the amount of years we'll spend waiting for them. I'll be close to my 50th when ill read the last book.

Yep, wanted more from him. That moment when you were on full Darth Vader trope and then got c-kblocked. I kinda liked him, really. There is something in his stoic murderer position id like to explore more.

@DimChatz i also think the 1 year time skip was added to work on that theory. I really wouldnt be surprised if we will see Shallan in irritation thinking "Oh, god, Adolin and his sweety hugs again!" after 1 year of marriage.

@DimChatz great theory. Fully support it now. Ill add that Adolin is Evi's son. He may have some father' qualities, but his kindness and sweetyness is definitely an Evi's genes. And Shallan destroying the marriage in similar way as Dalinar did would be great twist. You dont even need to push it that far and kill Adolin. No, Shallan can do something that will make Adolin realize that there is the end. Boom!

The things like these are what Shadolin lacks of. Just some thoughts both characters share. Shallan dreams Kaladin will fly her to some highest place, and Kaladin dreams to show her how to really fly. That creates the image of some sort of mental connection for us, readers, even if characters doesnt have a conversation. OB full of these little bits. Maybe if BS would use Adolin as POV more often, we will see something similar from him. But untill now we just see what he says and stuff he says is kinda generic and not that romantic.

Also casted Windrunner illusion on Adolin. Yeh, sure, Shallan, ability to fly doesnt matter at all. At all, you made it crystal clear.

If someone would gather all usefull info we stormed out here, systematize it and put it as some sort of short essay on reddit, that would actually be great. Not gonna ask anyone to do this though, its quite a large chunk of work.

Btw there will be beta reader AMA on reddit next Tuesday. Gonna ask some questions about their opinion on this matter.

Maybe i failed to be clear. I took the scene where Adolin told Shallan that he gives up on her and started to throw the arguements at her. Him noticing HOW both Shallan and Kaladin looked at each other was among these arguements. That led Adolin to realization that Kaladin and Shallan should be together. In her turn Shallan started to convince him that everything is all right. In my opinion the very need of conviction that she "doesnt love Kaladin, or its just the Veil who loves Kaladin or whatever" indicates that Shadolin resolution wasnt perfect and well done. In the 100% healthy relationships there is no an attempts of giving up on the partner and conviction that "i have nothing with the guy you saw me with yeasterday" And week or so after that scene they get married. Week after Adolin tried to break up with Shallan. Shadolin doesnt look solid id say. Its foundation doesnt look solid. On other ship Kaladin think that he doesnt like how Adolin and Shallan looks together. I took all of that, summed up and made an emphasis on the fact that scenes i described were written by our beloved Brandon Sanderson. I meant, if he wrote the scenes that way, then he wanted them to look that way.

I pretty much think he thinks the opposite - "Shallan and Kaladin are going to be together, I want them to be together, but i can't make it too easy for them, so i'll throw a little plot with Adolin and Shallan so that the end result feels more real". And all of us here talking about all these little or big details and hints aren't crazy. Its just the book really full of subtle details and hints. But even if not to look at little details, but at the whole picture, i would never call Shalladin/Shadolin resolution perfectly looking. Its like the tree in the eye - Adolin telling Shallan that she and Kaladin love each other before the wedding. BOOM! It doesnt even matter what lie or truth Shallan told to convince him, here the fact - 50% of Shadolin thinks that Shalladin looks better (while 50% of Shalladin thinks that Shadolin looks bad). And that was written by BS, btw. Its not perfect resolution. Just imagine that conversation in our life. The man you probably love tells you that you and other guy look at each other in special way so he gives up on you. You tell him this is crem dung and week later you marry that man. Cough cough i wouldnt be happy to be that man or that girl. Ill tell you what will be generally better resolution for Shadolin - Adolin doesnt tell Shallan that she and Kaladin love each other. At least that resolution won't look like its corrupted.

8/10. The biggest flaw of OB was the execution and resolution of large part of plot lines. The main one, that belongs to Dalinar, was great. History one was great too. But many side lines were handled poorly and uncharacteristically weak for BS. It looked like he simply didnt give them enough love. The second biggest flaw for me was the development of certain characters like Shallan, Renarin, Adolin, Jasnah. They were totally undercooked and some of their dialogues were done pretty lame. And thats it. Action was juicy, some characters were EPIC, world building was absolutely on point. Honest 8/10 but not more than that. I felt slightly disappointed since the things i look forward the most during the past 3 years were among those i mentioned in the flaws of the book. WoR still is my favorite SA book. And i lean towards TWoK rather than OB. Definitely not the strongest book from BS in my opinion.

Im still amazed by how Shallan yelled at Adolin that she is not his prize just to make him look like a prize for her ten seconds later. Poor man.

On that moment i felt like i smashed into the wall BS built instantly. "Here are the moment", - i thought. Yeah, sure. Another thing i felt was completely wasted. We all wasnt that glad we saw almost zero reflection on Adolin's part about Sadeas murder. We expected he gonna blow up everything with revelation. WHO??? could have even expected that this line will be compeltely skipped and brought only as a tool to bring Shallan and Adolin together (it was pretty boring reveal actually) and a tool to end the line itself after the reveal to Dalinar (who suddenly was completely okay with it). And thats it! BS just wasted potential conflict for Adolin to struggle and be important for the plot.

Another interesting question is will BS bring Shallan's brothers into the whole Kaladin-Helaran deal or not? They came back not just to make a surprise for Shallan i guess. They have a purpose and i believe they are here to be involved into Shallan-Adolin-Kaladin dynamic. Would be interesting to hear their thoughts on various themes around that trio. And the worst thing that i dont want to happen is Shalladin with the cost of Adolin's life. I dont want Shalladin to happen partly because Adolin died. There are two cons of this terrible turn of the plot: 1) It makes Adolin an ultimate looser. He just... died, heroic or not, but he didn't break up with Shallan on his own because solid reasons, but because some wound. Thats crap ending for Shadolin. I dont want Shadolin's end (if there will be one of course) to be handled as bad as its beginning. Handle it with class, BS. 2) It kinda makes Shalladin happening mostly because someone else, not because Shallan and Kaladin potential love and struggle and other exciting stuff. Againg, if BS ever gonna handle Shalladin, i hope he will do it with the class. Let it be because other reasons than Adolin's death. I also like other's ideas about maturing through other pairings. Shallan and Adolin, Kaladin and someone else. Let them grow up. Then hook them up in the back half of the SA (for example) already matured, because solid reasons, like Navani and Dalinar did in OB. Let Adolin realize what exactly he want. Because, given all three books, i wouldnt be surprised if it will be him who will provoke the break up, realizing that he wanted to be with Shallan because its pretty safe option and she is just different. I can hardly imagine he will somehow find something else besides that to fuel their relationships. There are a whole world of girls in the next 7 books who might be better than she and give him what he really want.

Both ships are tropey. So i subconsciously lean towards the ship that crafted better. And subconsciously i feel Shalladin a better crafted love story. I wonder what BS mean talking about how the relationships in OB are the relationships of confused teenagers. Did he mean just Shalladin, or Shadolin, or both? I actually able t interprent that pre-wedding and wedding scene as the act of confused teenagers.