Brightlord M. Alhstrom

Warbreaker

I'm not sure if this is what you are saying, but the problem I see with this is that you might see a couple KR leaving because they realized that the Heralds had betrayed them (or whatever you want to call it), but a mass, unified desertion of KR is too organised to be from something like that. I'm almost certain that the Heralds or other leaders among the KR orders the desertion.

Well, that depends. See, if the stamp only needs investiture when it's being stamped, then it should work. But if it requires a steady stream of investiture, then the stamp would fail the moment you stopped tapping the metal mind. Essentially, if it's possible for you to stamp an object in MaiPon, then bring it off-world without the stamp reverting, then your solution should work. If it would fail once it was far enough from MaiPon, then the stamp should only last as long as you are tapping your metal mind. Still might be useful, but much less so.

I figure that's why Endowment doesn't supply the Investiture directly. My point was about why you would need Investiture in the first place. And yes, I agree, Endowment is probably hand choosing the Returned. PS: Has Endowment's gender been confirmed? For some reason I think of Endowment as a her, but can't seem to remember why.

Well, it wouldn't be the first time that you had an "arbitrary" number being very important on a specific world. 10 On Roshar (10 Heralds, 10 Surges, 10 Orders, etc.) 16 on Scadrial (16 metals, 16% taken by the mist), etc. I might be able to see more examples given time, but I'm kinda tired. Point is, I'm not surprised. Cosmere magic systems tend to pick a favorite number, and 7 could be Nalthis'.

Or it could mean that the stream of investiture that gives them their elantrian bodies doesn't have any surplus, and thus that since they don't have any investiture stored in their bodies, Nightblood would simply start using up all of the investiture keeping them alive, run out immediately, then kill them. Remember there is a difference between having a store of investiture (Metals, Breaths, Stormlight) and a stream of investiture (Aons). It seems to me that the Investiture of Aons goes directly into doing something, and isn't ever stored int he user. The exception would be with the Dor attacks that Raoden had.

It actually makes me thing of Elantris. Elantrians are under similar circumstances in that their bodies have similar perks. Yet as far as I can tell, Elantrians aren't Cognitive Shadows. But the existence of the Reod (or Shaod, whichever is connected to the Chasm) and how their bodies decayed makes me think that they also have a constant stream of Investiture giving them those perks. As to why they lived at all, I'd mention that they still had a stream, just a much smaller trickle than they needed to get the full benefits.

Well, have you also considered that it could be their body? Cosmere works typically stick to what would happen in real life, and you assume that anything else is related to Investiture. As far I know, not needing food, or being able to get drunk, or all the other perks of being a Returned aren't things normal people get. I suspect that that is why investiture is required. As for why Endowment doesn't simply give a stream of it herself, that might be because of her intent. Something else that might require investiture: Keeping their Cognitive Shadow in a body. This might explain why the lack of investiture results in the Body and the Cognitive Shadow separating (ie death).

Now I'm wondering if that would merge well with the concept of getting light from Taldain's sun, despite not being on Taldain. I know there is a WoB about how it would technically be possible to use Taldain's magic at any place from which you can see Taldain's sun.

The difference is that Odium placed Dominion and Devotion in the CR when he killed them, so their power was still essentially in one place. He didn't have to hunt down the various splinters and pieces.

Thank you. I guess that removes the last two lines of my argument. Does the rest make sense though?

I'd always thought of it as a similar process to Keliser's survival. The when the "Returned" died the first time, they were met by Endownment, like Preservation did to people who died on Scadrial, before he died. Similarly to Kelsier, they needed something (probably investiture based) to anchor them as Cognitive Shadows, and that was the Divine Breath. The Divine breath was designed by Endownment to reconnect them with their body, and morphed it into a returned body. The reason a breath is required every week is that keeping the connection to their body, as well as holding the properties of the returned's body state, (or maybe only one of those two factors) requires a stream of investiture. The weekly breaths provide it. If the breaths were missing, then it would start drawing on the Divine Breath, which barely has enough investiture to keep them in them connected to their body, and thus the connection from their body to their shadow would be severed, thus another death. At this point I'm not sure if they would stay Cognitive Shadows, or if they would continue to the Beyond. If they would stay Cognitive Shadows, then it might explain why people decide not to become Returned. Once you go down that path, you might never make it to the Beyond. You might be stuck as a Shadow forever.

Maybe. At the same time, then why did Ruin have to use Ironeyes to kill the messenger that Spook sent? Why didn't he kill Elend and Vin and all of the others? Why didn't he just kill anyone and everyone who could stop him? Since this thread is about uses of Hemalurgy, here are some questions: Would it be possible to use Hemalurgy on a Dakhor Monk? I can see two obstacles:1. In monks who were fully developed (not like Hrathen), the bone structure might get in the way, stopping a spike from having a channel to go all the way through. 2. The abilities seem to be tied to the warping of the bones. Almost like a part of the Dakhor magic is based on the physical, not just the spiritual. Would a Dakhor spike steal the Dakhor-ness, or would it only steal some aspect, like strength, speed, agility, or anti-AonDor-ness? Would a Dakhor spike leave you looking like normal, or would your bones also shift and twist, etc? Most of the examples of spiked people still looked the same, but Kandra and Koloss are examples of when a spike changed you physically. Also, Forgery also rewrites the spirit-web, and it too changes things physically. What about an Elantrian Spike? Would it give you the ability to draw Aons as well as the body of an Elantrian? Or would you have to get multiple spikes to get all of the aspects of an Elantrian? If Hemalurgy became prevalent on Sel, would it become possible for a Forger to have Essence Marks that give you Hemalurgical Spikes, without needing to spike someone? PS: We really need a way to spit the two meanings of "spiking" someone. There is both spiking someone to steal an attribute, and spiking someone to give them an attribute. Anyone have good terms that could differentiate between the two meanings?

This is what Brandon says, and while I think it is a valiant attempt, those aren't really the Shabbat rules. There are 39 rules, and one of them is no fire. So that does correspond with one of the Simple Rules. However, running is allowed, and drawing human blood isn't really ever allowed unless it's necessary. Drawing blood for meat is allowed. So I'm not really sure where he got the idea that those two sets of rules are similar. You may want to take a look at this thread:

I'm fairly sure that @Delightful meant: To which I'd respond that Allomancy came from Preservation after Rashek handed out the Lerasium beads to specific people. As for how it is attained, that steps from the Lerasium. You either need to swallow a bead, inherit the trait (probably watered down too), or steal it (Hemalurgy). Regardless, it stems from Lerasium, and any ability with Allomancy will have a trail leading back to someone eating Lerasum (or it's alloys). Now, technically Allomancy probably existed way before Rashek, as the beads were not created at that time. But since no one had eaten any of the beads, it just wasn't being used. I think that Hemalurgy also existed for as long, even if it wasn't used until Rashek either, as until then no one knew of it's usage. I'm not sure if Ruin created it directly, or simply twisted it to give himself a back door. It, unlike Allomancy and Feruchemy, can be used by anyone, does not have a source (like lerasium for Allomancy), and is not passed down genetically. As for Feruchemy, I think it has existed for as long as the other two. It was in use for a much longer time than the other two, as Rashek was a Feruchemist. If it has a source similar to Lerasium for Allomancy, I don't know what that might be. My theory is that the three magic systems of Roshar came into existence either during the creation of the Planet, when their perpendicularities popped up, or when the Scadrial humans were created. Feruchemy stems from the balance of the two shards, which makes me think that it is practically Harmony's system (which is fitting, as he was a Feruchemist himself). It is an end neutral system, neither of Preservation or of Ruin, but of both. The exception being when it is used with Allomancy. Allomancy is of Preservation and is end positive (go figure), while Hemalurgy is end negative and of Ruin. But just because the magic systems stem from the two shards does not mean that they designed their respective systems, though that might be the case, and we know that Ruin put a back door in Hemalurgy that allowed him to control/twist spiked individuals. And Hoid's Feruchemy? As @Weltall mentioned, the current opinion is that Hoid is not a Feruchemist. Instead he either uses a different system to access Fortune, or he uses unkeyed metal-minds.

Now I'm wondering if Brandon (or someone on Team Brandon) possibly has a similar role to what you describe: Spreading the chaos, and throwing us on wild goose chases so we ignore actual potential spoilers, and solid leads. Someone who doesn't advertise that they are on Brandon's team, but only have the one account, so they technically aren't breaking any rules. Of course, the chances of the above are astronomically low. But still..... I'll have to keep the idea in mind for when I start publishing monolith works like Brandon, and I get a fan-base of my own.

First off, the fact that Shallan has seen these creatures (which I will refer to as symbol-shades), and has entered Shadesmar, while Kaladin hasn't seen them and hasn't entered Shadesmar is really not enough to imply that you need to be a soulcaster to see the symbol-shades. However, I do agree that the fact that we have had three different characters refer to these symbol-shades is a sign that they are important. I think there is a possibility (very, very small, but existent) that you have to have entered Shadesmar, or have some way to access Shadesmar to be able to see the symbol-shades. However, we don't have anything showing any signs that Jasnah has seen the symbol-shades, and she has a lot more experience in Shadesmar than Shallan, so I doubt that it has to do with Soulcasting directly. No, your reference to the stone creatures in Dalinar's visions (combined with a theory I've recently read) makes me suspect that the symbol-shades are Cognitive Shadows, as well as voidbringers who haven't crossed into the PR yet. This brings in a correlation to Shadesmar, but doesn't really connect Shallan, Gaz and Elhokar. Honestly, I think that you'd have better luck figuring out why people can see the symbol-shades if you focused on established similarities between Shallan, Gaz, and Elhokar. Particularly looking that how they can see the symbol-shades (drawing, mirrors, darkness, etc.) and how their different methods of vision are related and how they differ.

Actually, this is making me think that if she were to become a Misting, she might be able to turn metal into investiture (at least, the metal she can burn). It would depend on what actually happens when a misting burns a metal. Does the misting metabolize the metal, or does it simply disappear? If the first, then I could see Lift swallowing handful after handful of tin and getting some serious investiture.

I actually really like Elantris. But then it was the first Brandon Sanderson book I read, and I was young at the time. As for Raoden and Sarene, I actually related to both of them a lot, (Raoden in his insistence in seeing good in everyone, Sarene is the feeling of being constantly respected but excluded at the same time.) And since then have found some similarities with Hrathen too. So while I can agree that the plot wasn't as good as it could have been, the characters pulled it through for me really well. As for least favorite story? Definitely "Allomancer Jak and the Pits of Eltania". Finishing it was a grind for me. I just read it because it was one of the only cosmere works I hadn't read, and I already owned it.

@Extesian Good Job. I'm going to hold off judgement on this monster till after I have read Oathbringer. I feel like enough of the RAFOs are because OB is going to answer it that this theory will be much more polished after you've read it. Other than that, amazing job. The part about the heralds keeping Odium contained was a little confusing, and I'm not sure, but I think you've hit on a couple key points. And I think that your list of WoBs is going to be extremely useful. Hopefully you are planning on keeping it up to date too.

Anyone else reading his as "when Feruchemy was designed, this was not in the plans, however, it might be/become part of it."

17. Did the Seons and Skaze exist before Dominion and Devotion were splintered?

OK, here is an update to my theory on splinter reforming. My current head-cannon on Shard reassembling (which is mostly based on HoA/Sazed) is that someone who takes up a "critical mass" of loose investiture ascends. Once they do so, it would make it much easier for them to hunt down and absorb other loose investiture. This is mostly based on the idea that splinters are very similar to shards, with the exception that splinters do not have the "critical mass" that gives one the shardic body (ie makes them ascend). The reason Adonalsium wasn't reforged this way: The 16 shards were all taken up, ergo there wasn't any loose investiture. Part of what is stopping this from happening to splintered shards? The loose investiture is either inaccessible (the Dor), or isn't actually loose and has a vessel or sentience holding it (Seons, Skaze, Unmade, Spren, ect.) Lets take this and apply it to various events: The death of Adonalsium. When he died his investiture split into 16 parts. 16 people came and took up the investiture of each part, ascending and becoming the shards as we know them. Because they were working together (at least, at first), no one tried to take up more than one shard portion. If one of the vessels were to die, then the investiture would most likely be loose, and anyone could take it up. Preservation & Ruin. When Leras died, his investiture had very little time being "loose". Kelsier took it up almost immediately, then when Vin was going to take it up, he released it. After her death, it was easily taken up by Sazed. Thus, each time the shardholder died, or released the shard, another took his place, and most of these ascensions seemed as natural as letting it in. The exception is Kelsier, who had to use a device to do it, seeing as he had no body. As for Ati, once he died, his shard was also loose, and also taken up by Sazed. Devotion & Dominion. Odium splintered these two. Not sure how he weakened them enough to do so, but the point is moot. Once he splintered them, he didn't want to take up the shard's themselves as they would interfere with his intent, and he didn't want to leave them there where anyone (or any shard) could take them up. So he made a large portion of the investiture inaccessible by somehow merging them in an unstable and chaotic way, and compressing them into the CR. The Seons and Skaze remained as splinters of D&D, but didn't cause any worry as they didn't have enough investiture for someone to ascend. Plus, Odium might have been in a hurry to avoid investing in the Selish system. Now, I am starting to suspect that the reason we have the Seons and Skaze as Splinters, and not in the CR, is because they might actually predate the splintering of D&D. That or some of the investiture spilled into the PR. That investiture either somehow survived long enough without being taken up by the natives to form sentience of their own, or were somehow given sentience by someone. Regardless, to reform wither shard individually would probably be a nightmare, and since the Dor is pretty much a single power, if someone were to somehow absorb enough of it (without dying) to ascend (no idea how they would do that, though using the pool at Elantris might work), they might be able to organise and absorb the rest, forming a dual shard, minus the investiture in the Seons/Skaze. If the shard wanted to absorb that investiture, it would have to kill the splinters and take up the now loose investiture. Honor. A lot of gaps with this one. My guess is that when Tanavast died, a large portion of his investiture was either formed into splinters, taken up by someone (unlikely), or also locked up like the Dor. Probably a combo of all three. Considering that Cultivation didn't take up the loose investiture, I take that to mean that she actually preferred the state it was in to holding it herself, or Odium was somehow stopping her from doing so. One idea could be that the "prison" holding Odium is physically made up of a large portion of Honor's investiture. Regardless, to reforge Honor would require someone to free up a critical mass of Honor's investiture and take it up. Possibly freeing Odium in the process (if the investiture forms Odium's prison), or requiring one to kill lots of spren (considering that quite a few of the spren are splinters of Honor.) Ambition. No idea. He is a total blank for me. Other than a theory that his investiture is locked up in the Iriali. Whoever holds his power however, they don't hold enough critical mass or they would have ascended and Honor would not be considered a splintered shard). And if you were to kill enough of the splinterholders/splinters then you would be able to achieve critical mass and ascend. Honestly, though, I feel like a lot of this theory is based on a line from The One Who Connects: @Thanatos Point is, if this is right, then it means that reassembling a shard would almost certainly mean taking it up. It might be possible for a shard to gather up the investiture in one location without taking it up, but it would probably be pointless. It would be like if someone cut a pie in a hundred pieces, then insisted on piecing them back exactly how they were, so someone could eat the pie whole, instead of just eating the pie piece by piece.

Well, what if Rayse gets killed, and someone picks up his shard without it splintering? Then that person collects Honor's power, and thus become the dual shard of Odium/Honor.

I don't think you get what I am saying. I don't think that the Iriali are people who have a crazy amount of investiture invested in them. I think they are composed of investiture. I consider them more akin to Seons than Humans. The reason they die and interbreed, etc, is because they were designed that way by their father-shard. And maybe a little portion of the father=shard still remains to take up the investiture that is released at death, and to invest into new Iriali. Or something. My entire theory relies on them being splinters, not invested humans like Nalthis. BTW, for the immortality thing, even then, you need thousands of breaths to attain immortality (at least, I think so). So as long as the Iriali population is only 1/10th of the population of Nalthis, it would explain why they might not be immortal. That is assuming I'm wrong on the splinter thing.