alder24

I think that's not the case based on those WoBs: Mistborn SH spoilers:

It doesn't matter. Nightblood determines his wielder's evilness, based on his will and perception of himself. If Nightblood is already wielded it will destroy anything that will hit. That's it. Even if it's a baby. However, if you throw sheathed Nightblood under baby's feet, I found it very unlikely that baby would be considered evil so at most baby would feel nauseous. Now what would happen to its wielder depends on multiple factors. First is if this is someone with which Nightblood has an existing connection, like Vasher - Vasher would be fine. Secondly it's about self-perception, if a wielder truly believes that what he's doing isn't evil, then he will be fine. Thirdly it's about strong will - a person with a strong will would resist Nightblood's influence. But if a person think of himself as evil, if he wants to use Nightblood specifically to kill or threatened with it, then the wielder would kill himself (he might not even have a time to stab that baby, people under Nightblood's influence fight with other people under Nightblood's influence). Warbreaker ch 51:

I don't think Brandon said unkeyed people can access keyed metalmind. It wouldn't make sense. Identity is a more or less unique encryption key. If you don't have any key, you can't access a metalmind requiring a specific key. If a metalmind doesn't have any key, every key fits, but no key works too. But VenDell said that an unkeyed Feruchemist might be able to access another Feruchemist's metalmind. This WoB said if you're blank it's hard to access keyed investiture, but the context makes me think it's about filling a blank and empty metalmind.

Yes, Shard's power is almost infinite, that's why it's almost impossible for it to be fully pulled into CR by Odium. And Selish CR can be larger than usual because of Dor. And why can't Dor also be present where oceans are? I see no reason why not (yes, space of oceans in CR is contracted). And there is another dimension you didn't consider - height. Dor might be stretched vertically, not just horizontally. It's a storm after all. Ok, I did. And yes, it would form a perpendicularity. But we've never seen that much liquid Dor in one place (except for TLM if it is Dor (20x3 feet)). The most we've seen was a few jars of it in hands of Ire or Ghostbloods, not near enough to form perpendicularity. Natural Dor on Sel is plasma, not liquid, so no forming perpendicularity there. TLM ch 60: That's not my point. You're saying "Dor should be twice as dense". But where? How much Dor? We don't know how much it "weigh", how much space it takes or stuff like that. You don't seem to consider it. Would a jar of Dor be twice as investiture dense as a jar of Aonium? No. Not in my mind. Just because Dor is composed of 2 Shards, it doesn't mean that it has to be twice as dense - it can take twice as much space. In the same way 1l of water and 1l of oil won't take 1l of space and be twice as dense after mixing - they would take 2l of space and have the same combined density. That’s what I want to explain with Harmonium. 3 barrels full of Harmonium didn't form any perpendicularity. That's not "small amounts". They have bombs made of it, huge primar cubes in ships (I don't know, I think, might be wrong). More than a glowing Stormlight... YES. Different investitures have different properties. They don't glow! She leaks them because a human vessel is not perfect enough - just like with Stormlight. Be Mist won't ever glow - it's not in their nature. That's my point. Not everything glows. They are unaltered - in WoA they were showing us true text from Kwaan's plate, not what Sazed was translating. But Alendi's logbook was written on paper so what was its true text? And I don't think there were any alterations in that text anyway. That's too deep for me. But we know from AU that there is some sentience manifesting on Sel, that might be enough. And yes, it's not bulletproof - there is a voice in Devotion's perpendicularity but it doesn't glow - but that doesn't mean there is some sentience involved, maybe just a memory of devotion, or connection to timeless SR. No, we don't. It did form accidentally because of the large concentration of Metalborn in that area, but Set did bring some pure investiture into that place, to fill that perpendicularity, that's why I think Dor is the most likely. TLM ch 59: Well, it didn't look glowing for me in the graphic novel. And in WoR/OB. But fair enough.

Listing it like that makes sense why they would have colors associated with their Shard. Yes, now I can see it being true. I didn't know Cultivation's perpendicularity was described in such detail. Then it would make sense for Ruin's perpendicularity to be black as well (I was worried that because it wasn't written in Epigraphs, the "great black lake" might be a change made by Ruin). I think there might be something to it, but rather than kinetic investiture, what about sentience? Shardblades are detectable by A-bronze only when summoning is happening, so summoned Shardblade isn't kinetic investiture. But it's sentient. Dead Shardblade have something missing in their mind, their sentience is impaired, that's why they glow less. Preservation's Shardpool is basically made out of Preservation's mind, and Dor is manifesting a mind of its own so TLM's perpendicularity would glow.

No. It's plasma, It's not as dense as solid form and maybe even liquid. It won't form because of its state of matter. Electromagnetic forces would work on that, there is no force pushing it together, compressing it even denser, so it's stuck in the state it is, and can't get denser to form perpendicularity, because of electromagnetic repulsion (or whatever Cosmere forces act on Axi). The movement would actually prevent a perpendicularity from forming, as static Dor would more or less settle on the surface of CR and compress under its own weight. It doesn't matter how many Shards form Dor, what matters is its density. And because there is no indication of random perpendicularities opening in random spots, Dor is not dense enough to form perpendicularity, even locally. It isn't but it's liquid investiture, not Dor. We don't know how Dor looks in Selish CR, but because there is distinction between liquid/pure Dor and plasma-like state of natural Dor, for me this means there is some processing needed to manufacture liquid Dor - liquid isn't plasma. Dor isn't in liquid state. No. Wrong thinking. Just because it's composed of different materials, doesn't mean that the density is twice as much. It can be unchanged, lower or higher, it all depends on properties of this material. Dor might be less investiture dense than liquid Devotion's investiture. Is 1 g of Harmonium twice as investiture dense as Atium? Or the same? Do 1 g Harmonium is composed of 1 g investiture worth of Atium and 1 g of investiture worth of Lerasium? Or is 1 g of Harmonium composed only of 0.5 grams of Atium/Lerasium's investiture? For me it makes far more sense that Harmonium isn't twice as investiture dense as Atium. The same at most. The same would be with Dor. Lerasium isn't an alloy, and it doesn't glow. Lerasium as a solid state is the most investiture dense state of investiture. Did the Atium cache glow? No. Tens of thousands of Atium beads stored in a big hole didn't create any perpendicularity. Even if alloy would reduce its investiture density, it was still considerably dense. Vin didn't glow after taking in all Mists, she leaked them, but didn't glow, nor did Mists glow when they were concentrating below Vin as she was taking them in. Glow isn't always present with investiture. White Sand doesn't glow too. Even Susebron or Nightblood don't glow - they hold huge amounts of investiture but the most they do is to make colors brighter and split white light into its spectrum. Just because Stormlight and Dor glow doesn't mean every investiture has to glow. Not to mention that different state of the same investiture might behave differently - Dead Shardblade has a weak glow, while living one has very intense glow. Only the logbook epigraph is valid, not mythological descriptions of unknown sources. In the logbook it's glassy and metallic, not black or dark. And still doesn't glow. If you stopped trying to reject Ruin's perpendicularity as evidence, Patji wouldn't be an odd one (it still isn't because Devotion's pool doesn't glow as well, and it's bluish iirc). Yes, that's true. Perpendicularity doesn't have enough investiture for that time dilation to be noticeable

Worldbuilding: 4.5/5 - great idea, cool immersion, would want to live in this world (with medical nanobots), need a spirit that would fix my shoes. Characters: 4/5 - I felt the struggle of John, like alternate-Earth characters, they fulfill their purpose in the story. Humor: 4/5 - nice marketing jokes, all of them, made me smile. Artwork: 4.5/5 - fun doodles, great paintings, nice stones (would want to pour water on them) Ealstan shooting Urlic: 5/5 best part of the book, so badass. Jen: 0/5 - worst gf ever. Overall rating: 4/5 stars, would read a sequel.

I've found the WoB supporting my idea that Devotion's Perpendicularity was there before Splintering of Aona and Skai:

There was a recent topic trying to do just that, here, full Cosmere spoilers:

Dead and gone. If they weren't in a Shardblade form. Thunderclast was a spren killed by Nightblood permanently. Spren can be killed by Nightblood. Nightblood did take some of Odium's power, but Shard's power is infinite, too big for Nightblood to make a dent in it. But he consumed just a tiny tiny bit of it. However because the Vessel was focusing his attention there, Rayse was there, his mind was there, that's why he got consumed fully, because he is much much smaller than the Shard.

TLM spoilers:

I know that feeling. Of course not. The important part was that Odium could argue Shards he was attacking were breaking the agreement they made. Autonomy was somewhat involved in Splintering of Devotion and Dominion (the first one he ever did, and gained a lot of skill there), Mercy fought in Threnody, and possibly there were "we" that killed Honor. Not to mention Odium is the Shard of conflicts, Rayse and Odium paired together provided another advantage. And the raw power still matters. From Coppermind, it was also said that while Odium was successful in Splintering Devotion, Dominion and Ambition, all those fighting wounded him. I think it's advisable to keep as much raw power to himself rather than creating Splinters that can't aid him against another Shard in any meaningful way. Mistborn spoilers: Why not? The presence of two Shards would warp the space and expand CR of that place. It's just another place, no different than Scadrial before Shards arrived there. Dor isn't unkeyed but can be. I meant that somebody can go there in CR, grab a bunch of investiture, unkeyed it and use it like unkeyed Dor. He could Splinter Ambition into so many pieces that each would have its own intent, acting like a mini-shard, impossible for somebody to Ascend to all of them at once. A mini-shard gaining sentience wouldn't rival him. Yes, he couldn't push it into PR or CS, because it would be a well known location. Making Unmades out of it would only take a little fraction of the whole power, too little to prevent the rest from gaining sentience or prevent somebody from Ascending to Ambition. I think it's OB ch 57: Mini-shards aren't thread to him. Just like he did it later with Honor, which he thought at that time that it would be enough. Because of that I see no reason to believe that he Splinter Ambition in a better way than he Splinter Honor, when he thought just Splintering Honor would be enough. He Splintered Ambition thinking it would be enough - I'm not saying it is, just that from his point of view it would be when he was doing that. Now he might think that it wasn't enough, just like with Honor. But it can be separated from the whole. Andonalsium was separated into 16 Shards. Shards can be just Splintered, like Honor (there is no Honor's investiture raging in CR or PR), and Shard can be Splintered into smaller Shards, which is what I think Odium did, he splinter Ambition and Honor into many sub-intents ("I'm Unity"), separated from the whole. We don't know, but we see it leave Shards divided permanently into small pieces, unable to unite on their own. Just like Adonalsium was Shattered into 16 parts, Spintering is the same on a smaller scale and it's happening in all 3 Realms. And Honor is a proof it doesn't always involve shoving Shard's investiture into PR or CR. It really sounded like you were saying he did the same.

Shardpool, or SR, doesn't push investiture into PR to form itself. No. Shard's investment into a system causes some of his investiture to leak into PR from SR. This is often concentrated in a single place, causing perpendicularity to appear. That's how Atium was made, and there was a perpendicularity of Ruin right below the Pits. There was a nice WoB on that leak into PR, can't find it. That's what I said. Concentration of investiture in PR or CS pierces all realms creating a perpendicularity. There must be investiture in PR/CR to make one, it can't be done purely form SR, like you said, or at least how I understand it. But then again, SR is spaceless - there is always investiture in it, Dor doesn't need to be there to pierce through SR. And WoBs saying "massive amount of investiture pierces through all realms," - not pull from SR, just piercing. I don't think it works like that. It's like a black hole. It curves all Realms, bringing them closer together. All of them. That's how investiture works. Just like gravity curves all of spacetime, not just 1 dimension. There is nothing to suggest that perpendicularity "pulls investiture from SR" when open. I've never heard of this explanation. It doesn't fit in my opinion. All forms of physical investiture permeate all 3 realms at once, They are like a black hole, they exist in every realm at once - that's why you don't need Dor in SR, because Perpendicularity’s investiture is already in SR. It brings realms closer together, not investiture in those realms. The more investiture in PR/CR is concentrated, the closer all realms are until they become one and perpendicularity is formed. Also the bolded part doesn't support your theory. It just said it pierces all realms, not pulls from SR to pierce all realms. It's not an argument, we're not arguing, we’re expressing opinions supported by arguments For me that's a pure argument, as it was described like other, later Shardpools. Just ignore it, Polish weirdness The "female" was about water not voice.

He would need a way to access Stormlight, something like Vasher is doing, then he would be able to create whatever he wants in a Highstorm, feeding it with Stormlight, not his water. There is no "invested atmosphere" or something like that. Some words like Roshar have a very easy access to investiture, because of Highstorm, others, like Scadrial don't. Prasanva created his roseite armor without getting dehydrated, because he used Dor to feed it instead of water. Normally. Water or investiture to make Aethers. I think he needs it constantly, but mostly during growing. Without connection to him, Aethers die.

I think it's the other way around. Perpendicularity forms because of Shard's investment into the world. It pushes his investiture into PR, which results in forming perpendicularity from PR. Perpendicularity forms because Shard's investiture "drips" into PR, it searches for some relief valve to leak into PR and concentrate in a single place. It's investiture from PR that forms perpendicularity, not SR. SR is spaceless, technically it can't collect massive amounts if investiture in a place in SR to pierce through into PR, because there is no place in SR. It doesn't make sense the way you describe it because of the nature of SR. It is Devotion's perpendicularity, we know that. That's pure Devotion's investiture, it isn't Dor - it doesn't look like Dor. And WoB said Investiture forming perpendicularity must be "particularly purely attuned to one of the Shards". It must work like others, because perpendicularity pierces all realms, otherwise it wouldn't be perpendicularity. It's like a black hole. Check out "Arcanum Unbounded - The Drominad System" for an explanation of how they work - it clearly said concentration of investiture in PR or CR pierces all Realms. That's the nature of perpendicularities. You can't have one without piercing into SR. That's not an argument. 3 out of 5 Perpendicularities were described very similarly without any glow - Devotion's, Ruin's and Patji's. Only Preservation's and TLM's glowed. But all are clean in color, almost metallic in consistency. Even Devotion's one was described not as water but something denser. Coppermind. Yes, it doesn't have a source. But given the fact that Elantrias worship Devotion, are attuned to her, everything is white like her, Seons are Splinters of Devotion and Elantrians call her name, especially Ire, I'm believe that's Devotion's voice (not that her real voice, some memory, representation or something like that), and perpendicularity predates her Splintering. The voice also calls in a female-like voice (kind of, in my version), with motherly characteristics close to Devotion's love, to give Raoden peace - sounds a lot like pure Devotion to me.

It's the best thread on this forum! I simply love it. Yeees. The Diagram in WoR has clues. It's so hard not to say too much.

Land? I think WoBs points toward Dor being pushed only to CR and no more. A single fast event. I believe Dor is splitted into multiple parts. One such part is near Elantris in CR. It isn't a one single piece of Dor, it's multiple, for every magic system and countries they are tied to. Perpendicularity in Elantris isn't Dor, it's pure Devotion investiture, it likely existed there before their Splintering. That's the difference. Dor itself isn't concentrated enough to form any perpendicularity (there isn't even any mention of some unstable perpendicularities like on Roshar). Even if the Dor was one single piece of investiture, flowing through CR, it would be spread across the whole Selish CR, it would be everywhere in Selish CR at the same time, one planet size storm, not concentrated enough to pierce through all 3 realms, and form perpendicularity. Concentrated investiture doesn't glow - that's not a rule. Atium doesn't glow, Lerasium doesn't glow, Raysium doesn't glow, Harmonium doesn't glow. Trellium doesn't glow. Mists are concentrated investiture, they don't glow. Ruin's perpendicularity was not glowing either, just like Patji's one. The Well is different, it wasn't just a normal perpendicularity, it also held immense power of Preservation - no other perpendicularity is like that. And apparently Investiture in CR works weird and doesn't always result in perpendicularity. If nothing else convinced you this might. It can't be piercing only 2 realms - it's Devotion's perpendicularity it must pierce through all 3 realms. Otherwise it wouldn't be piercing any realms at all - that's how perpendicularity works. Raoden heard Devotion's voice, it must have come from SR. Is there any proof that it only pierces 2 realms?

Very disastrous stuff would happen: We know? From where? I can't find anything on that. If it does it isn't significant. Nothing more than Scadrial - it's the same amount of investiture present in the system. Because it's spread across the whole Selish CR, and doesn't focus in a single place. It isn't concentrated in one spot. And it's in the form of plasma, which is less dense than gas (under normal pressure). Mists didn’t form perpendicularly on Scadrial. But Dor is under some pressure, to the point of it becoming a liquid - which still isn't as dense as Harmonium. not even close. And it's forming a storm, which means it's moving, changing, flowing, circulating - it isn't motionless. It's like with radioactive materials, plutonium for example has something called a critical mass - if you put too much of it in a single place, it would go critical and even supercritical - bad stuff would happen (bombs do this). The same is with Harmonium - too much in one place, it exceeds its critical mass, forming a perpendicularity (btw, huge 3 barrels full of Harmonium weren't enough to make perpendicularity). But turn that plutonium into liquid and throw it into the ocean - there is no way for it to exceed critical mass, even with unrealistically huge amounts of liquid plutonium. That's Dor.

Sja-Anat calls the Sibling her cousin. That's a big clue in my opinion. I don't remember WoB like that. There is a WoB that said Shards avoid direct confrontations unless there is something that makes them believe they will have an advantage. Splinters don't count for me as an advantage. Breaking words yes. Mistborn spoilers: Or don't touch it as it is binding you to that place and Unmades can't help in a direct fight against a Shard. If Ambition was treated like Devotion and Dominion, there would be a second source of unkeyed investiture in Cosmere, as placing so much investiture in CR would expand that region of CR, manifesting a new presence. That place would be well known, and would rival Sel and the Dor. We've never heard anything about it. This didn't happen. He didn't do with Ambition what he did with Devotion and Dominion. Which I think is something very recent, or at least he perfected it after Splintering of Honor, and after Stromfather became Tanavest's CS. He said it in OB, that he made a mistake leaving those pieces of Honor and he will "fix it". Splintening of Honor was likely a better idea than what he did on Sel, Ambition was Splintered later, so it's likely something different than what happened on Sel (no mention of another CR like Selish one) and closer to what he did with Honor. He was learning with every Shard he Splintered. The reason why Ambition can't choose another Vessel is that it's Splintered, in the middle of nowhere - somebody would need to first unite all pieces of Ambition to Ascend, which is almost impossible. Unmade, while heavily invested, are too small to prevent somebody from Ascending to Ambition. And there is this WoB. He did what he did on Sel because he was inexperienced, so it makes little sense that he would do the same thing to Ambition, which he already knew it didn't go as planned. And there is this theory that Unmades were made out of Herald's minds. There are only 9 of them, just as the amount of Heralds that broke, and in OB ch 88 Jezrien said that "they ripped his mind and forced to dance, he watched the dance". The more sentient Unmades are made ouf of those who broke the most. I think that's far more likely than Unmades made out of corrupted Splinters of Ambition, that Odium just pulled along through Cosmere.

There are I(I think) three things that bind Shards. First and most important is Intent - they can't do anything that is against their intent. Second is oaths they make - breaking oaths will leave them wounded and exposed. And third is that they are bound to the planetary system they invested in - they can't leave it, it's very hard for them to reach outside that system. But Intent is the most important as it defines what Shard can or can't do. Over time a Vessel is changed and overcomed by that singular Intent in a way so he can't even try acting against it. Dalinar is bound to Stormfather, which is merged with Tanavest's Cognitive Shadow and holds the biggest piece of the Splintered Shard of Honor. Dalinar is bound to the biggest remains of Honor, which puts him in a very weird position. No other Bondsmith spren is like that. Because of that he can release Odium from Roshar like he was Honor, but Dalinar isn't Honor directly. That's the power Odium is likely talking about. Using Honor's power directly will bind Dalinar in the same way Rayse is bound by Odium's power. Just swearing more ideals won't turn Dalinar into Honor. He will get closer to Stormfather, which might enable him to use more of Honor's power. Dalinar was already shown to act like Honor when he accepted Kaladin's 4th Ideal. So there is definitely something going on here. But I'm almost sure more is needed for Dalinar to Ascend to Honor than just swearing Ideals.

That's chromium. Duralumin steals both Connection and Identity. nicrosil steals investiture, and aluminum removes all powers. Identity likely doesn't work like that. For all we know right now it's more like an encryption key that allows you to access your investiture and prevents others from using it. Having a different identity doesn't turn you into a different person - your spirit is still yours, you have Connections, memories, appearance etc.

That was 3 months ago. Why? Of course not. But that investment slowly bound him to the Roshar system. No idea. The best we have was said in Arcanum Unbounded. It said that before the fight between Shards there was some form of Investiture present on the planet. This might mean natural Adonalsium investiture (possibly slightly higher than in non-Shard worlds), Ambition invested it, Mercy invested it, or both Mercy and Ambition invested the planet. Then the fight happened in the space between planets, and chunks of Ambition were thrown at Threnody and altered the planet and people living there, possibly corrupting native investiture of Threnody. By the way it was said I find it unlikely that Ambition invested in Threnody before the fight happened, because if that was the case I think her investiture raining down on the system would have far lesser impact than it had. That's why I think Shades are corrupted by her investiture, but aren't her direct splinters. And there is this WoB, which suggests even more that Ambition didn't invest in the Threnody system before the fight happened. Yes, the Sibling is an exception, but the rules are the same - forcefully inject them with Odium's investiture. And it can be done without their consent - Sja-Anat knows that Odium will unmake her children and take their memories. Odium can do it directly, possibly under specific circumstances. In most cases Odium directly infused spren with his investiture, unmaking them. Voidlight is Odium's investiture, more physical however, which would be enough for the Sibling. Every Splinter Odium would make before coming to Roshar would weaken him in a direct fight against a Shard. Splinters do nothing when Shards clash directly with their full power, they're too weak to make any difference, and they're mostly in PR and CS - not SR where the majority of the fight is happening. If Odium made his Splinters, this would weaken him, and potentially bound him a bit to the place where he created them. And leaving a system in which he invested is a very difficult process, hurtful even. He wouldn't create Unmades before coming to Roshar. There are possibly millions of Voidspren, thousands of Fused. It doesn't matter that they still aren't a significant portion of his power, they are enough to slightly weaken him (which in a direct confrontation with another Shard would matter), they are Splinters of him (which was the main point of this, OP said Odium wouldn't splinter himself, I showed him that he already did it), and they are enough of them to bound him to Roshar. Making Unmades out of it won't prevent somebody from Ascending to one of the remaining chunks of Ambition. Odium didn't do anything to Honor like he did to Devotion and Dominion, and now he regrets it. If Ambition was Splinter in the middle of the space, there is almost no way for somebody to locate it, travel there and Ascend. And if she was Splinter into many pieces (that's true, one such piece was left in Threnody) that's likely enough to prevent somebody from Ascending. Again, Honor, except for Splintering him, Odium did nothing more. If a Shard is Splintered it's really hard to combine it back together and Ascend to the whole Shard.

They kind of do: But that doesn't mean that every act of destruction involves Ruin or every invention is due to Invention. That's not the case, they’re more like embodiments of those fundamental laws of Cosmere. Shards are omnipresent but their mind isn't infinite, they aren't aware of that power. I think you're wrong, because the WoB specifically said "Nightblood contains Ruin's investiture in the way you mean it". So it's in a more meaningful way.

Oathpact. The investiture for it is provided directly by Honor/Stormfather. Connection to place is different from direct Connection to PR. That Connection doesn't have to be made through the body, it can be just a direct one to the realm itself. That's what I think. Yes, it's possible, but it can be the only reason. If that was the case he would be able to restore that Connection with Lerasium. This is impossible, not in his current state, as Sazed said, which for me means the problem is in his body and Connection to PR. Death severed that Connection, and he wasn't able to restore it since then. Hemalurgy just holds his soul in this body but doesn't give him proper Connection. Only when trapped in a gem. Trapping them is what severs their Connection to PR and SR. Their bond to PR and SR is what keeps them alive. What makes them CS. Without that bond, they will fade into normal soul which would be pulled into the Beyond. Normal souls has no valid Connection to PR or SR. Interestingly, now I think that's the reason Returned needs to be fed with investiture. They lack this Connection to SR - this allows them to easily leave Nalthis, as they aren't bound to their Shard this tightly, but makes their soul fade into normal one. That's why they need to feed on Breaths, because SR isn't providing them investiture directly.

There: They can't be, otherwise they would cease to be CS when they die. RoW epigraphs ch 92: That's a different kind of Connection.