FiveLate

@Pagerunner This is a serious necro, but the topic came up in another thread and I came back to read this one again. Something bothered me but I could not figure it out, so I read it again. By the third time I started to get an idea about what it was. It had to do with my time on nuclear submarines, and the oxygen generator. ... colloquially know as "the bomb" by the crew. I then realized that only covalent and ionic bonds were being addressed in this thread (I think). Water has many interesting things about it, but the one I am thinking of is its natural polar form and use of Hydrogen bonds. This allows water to be split into its separate components very easily. On the sub we split water using electrolysis. Potassium Hydroxide KHO was added to the water for the process. Potassium is an alkali metal as discussed previously....and worked somehow as a catalyst...sorry it has been over 10 years since I thought about this, and I was a reactor operator not an electrician or mechinistmate. Brandon said the extra energy was coming from the spiritual realm and no hydroxide was left over. What if the Harmonium acted like the KOH, without being an oxide itself? The spiritual energy perpetuating the cycle while burning up rather than being a catalyst. This would leave you with a ton of 2(H2) and 02 to use like a fuel cell......or make a nice Fuel Air Explosive with. Thus addressing a power source and a bomb from one process. Thoughts?

That just makes me think of evil baby cloning factories making brainwashed children, teaching then 1 single phrase, then disposing of the bodies. Or spiking them for the breath at the earliest stage possible, to return the breath to the original.

@The One Who Connects. My reddit-fu is non-existent, so many thanks. I assume the implication is that cloning a drab would result in another drab....

Darn....now I am wondering if a clone would have innate breath.....

Small issue with this is that the Honorblade was what was allowing him to suck stormlight previously....

@The One Who Connects I just can't agree with the whole sheathed theory.... It is the word "thirsting" ... Nightblood shows obvious influence on Vasher in the scene above, but lifeless have no desires on their own....I think Nightblood would have to be unsheathed to impart any desires on its holder/wielder.

@The One Who Connects I must investigate this....tomorrow....after the sleepspren leave.

Well thanks for letting me down easily and explaining why they are meaningless.

One thing I did not make clear above. For all the Heralds I could match in the books, it was always the primary attribute that seemed to be "broken". Now, I am wondering if I can associate the primary attributes with Honor and the Secondary with Cultivation...... That is speculation on my part, not proven.

A couple of examples of similarities between lifeless, humans, and fielders. The first 2 demonstrate black smoke, the third has black veins evaporating....very reminiscent of black smoke. I hypothesize this to mean that the Investiture of all 3 is being corrupted and consumed. I think the above shows that it does. This quote shows Nightblood exposing power after being released. Not for long, but definitely when not being wielded.

1) At the time Vasher has access to a lot of Breath. 2) Nightblood only consumes Breath when drawn. 3) Vasher has conscious thought and reason, lifeless do not...hence zombie undead I associate with lifeless. Yes it does not say zombie. 4) I do not think any Returned think of themselves as "undead" and since Vasher is returned, I see this as unlikely.

I theorize that something happened to Nightblood after his forging that changed his very nature. One thing we have concrete evidence of is that Nightblood currently consumes the Breath of the person that wields it. Emphasis mine. The longer Nightblood is held the faster the breaths consumed. Yet, Vasher has the following thoughts later. If Nightblood consumed the Breath, how could a Lifeless wield it? Now to the Meat of my Theory. Nightblood originally only consumed the Breath of those slain by him. But what could have happened to change this? The only thing I can think of involves 2 assumptions. 1) Shashara was a returned. (I believe all 5 scholars were returned). 2) Vasher killed Shashara using Nightblood. If Shashara was returned it means 3 things. First, she had a Divine Breath. Second, That Breath had an expiration date and required other sacrificial breaths for her to continue living. Third, she had some Divine Purpose for Returning. If she was killed with Nightblood, that could mean 1) Nightblood consumed her Divine Breath. 2) Her purpose to Return was to feed her Divine Breath to Nightblood and change him, or his killing her prevented her purpose from being achieved, and prevented the Divine Breath from returning to Endowment, thus corrupting it. 3) Nightblood evolved into something new, since apparently lifeless could wield awakened swords originally, but how could they wield Nightblood when they have 1 breath.

Nice thank you.

I argued the "A Savant must have negative affects" side for a long time and finally succumbed to the pressure that I was wrong....and now this?

Wax. No ill effects. And yes I know Brandon is troubled by this.

Since I do not remember a skin color assigned to Vasher....and hell even if one was....I can just see Samuel L. Jackson for the witty banter, sarcasm, and disregard for the status quo.....Vasher is like the Nick Fury of the Cosmere, lots of secrets and sarcastic as hell. Or maybe he should be Kel

I have to agree to disagree with you there. To me Awakening seems explicitly designed to make savants. My apologies for everything not lining up quite right. Ars Arcanum TABLE OF THE HEIGHTENINGS Heightening Number Approximate Breaths Needed to Reach This Heightening Effects of the Heightening First 50 Aura Recognition Second 200 Perfect Pitch Third 600 Perfect Color Recognition Fourth 1,000 Perfect Life Recognition Fifth 2,000 Agelessness Sixth 3,500 Instinctive Awakening Seventh 5,000 Invested Breath Recognition Eighth 10,000 Command Breaking Ninth 20,000 Greater Awakening, Audible Command Tenth 50,000 Color Distortion, Perfect Invocation, ???? Bolds are my emphasis. These two items in particular seem very savant like to me. The difference being active vs passive use between Scadrial and Nalthis.

Contemplating this a bit more, I can see one trade set that would make perfect sense on both worlds. Scadrian metalsmiths are probably the most advanced in the Cosmere outside of Darkeside Taldain. The need to create very precise alloy percentages for mistborn and mistings would require this. Rosharan soulcasters can make pure metals from just about anything, but probably lack the knowledge to create precise alloys. Smelting ore down into pure metallic elements is a long energy intensive process. Brandon has already said that all metals in the Cosmere work the same way....as a "gateway" for Scadrian Allomancer's. Occams Razor says that all gems in the Cosmere should follow and work in fabrials. As I pointed out in a previous post, Scadrial's Volcanism should result in a greater concentration of gems present due to the temperature pressure combinations it creates. We know that TLR had skaa collecting very specific metallic compounds already (aluminum based from volcanic caldera if I remember correctly). It would be easy to focus some on gem mining, especially since he should have a good idea where veins should be located from his time ascended. Aluminum being the one metal that Rosharan forecasters probably could not make,works with the skaa specifically mining for it. Other than that, a trade of gems from Scadrial for pure metals from Roshar makes perfect sense. On Nalthis, the Tears of Egli make dyes so perfect that the entire trade of the world revolves around Halloden. These dyes would make a perfect trade good for this world. Not sure what an import would be here. Self and Taldain are cut off from the Cognative realm, or at least hard to reach. But, the Ire had to collect the Connection somewhere. Would the need connection specific to Scadrial, or just generic Connection? If specific, they might have been part of this trade system as well.

What follows is my current theory on how the 10 Heralds became the 10 fool's through the coarse of the Desolations. I will update this post as it evolves. I will try to provide links to all WOB. Quotes will come from the kindle versions of the books via cut and paste. I will list book, chapter, and location number. Bold will be my emphasis. Italics will be possible contradictory evidence. Number 18 here From Reddit Fantasy Bookclub Q&A with Brandon Sanderson Feb 28th, 2011 We will start with this quote which shows us all Heralds were in WOK. First, the Desolations occurred when the Heralds were sent back to Roshar after one of them broke under the torture of Odium. Second, each Herald is associated with a primary and secondary Divine Attribute. (Possibly primary from Honor, Secondary from Cultivation?) Third, the torture does not happen in the physical realm. It occurs in either the cognitive, or more likely the spiritual realm. Fourth, when Odium breaks a Herald, he is literally breaking part of that Heralds spiritual connection to the Divine Attribute. Fifth, Odium's goal was to break all the Heralds and bring about the the Everstorm, allowing him to shatter Honor and Cultivation. Sixth, breaking the Divine Attributes shifted them towards something more compatible with Odium and less compatible with Honor. This resulted in the attributes associated with the 10 Fool's. Number 19 in this WOB, says each is uniquely insane. NOTE: One of the biggliest issues with this theory is not knowing the 10 Fools attributes. Two Fools are named. Two have attributes. Cabine - He acts like a child although he is an adult. TWOK chapter 37, page 593, location 10668 Eshu - He speaks of things he does not understand in front of those who do. WOR chapter 71, page 593, location 16877 One issue I have here is that the 2 Heralds I would link these two too are both female. Paliah and Battar. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1) We have a WOB on this. Not a confirmation, but along those lines. 2) Herald. Primary Divine Attribute. Secondary Divine Attribute. Jezrien. Protecting. Leading Nale. Just. Confident Chanarach. Brave. Obedient Vedel. Loving. Healing Paliah. Learned. Giving Shalash. Creative. Honest Battar. Wise. Careful Kalak. Resolute. Builder Talenel. Dependable. Resourceful Ishar. Pious. Guiding 3) Since Odium was attempting to break the Heralds focus on their Divine Attribute, the torture most likely took place in the spiritual realm. The spren would probably know something if it took place in the cognitive realm. One thing pointing to the cognitive realm though is the fact that Taln appeared covered in condensation much like a shardblade. 4) By breaking the Herald, Odium shifted their Primary attribute to closer align with his shard and align less with Honors. This usually resulted in an almost inversion of the attribute. SPECIFICALLY I THINK ONLY THE PRIMARY ATTRIBUTE WAS BROKEN/TWISTED. Below I will show what I think the attribute shifted to after the Devine attribute. Herald. Primary Divine Attribute. Secondary Divine Attribute. Jezrien. Protecting. (Submission) Leading Nale. Just. (Arbitrary)(Judgement) Confident Chanarach. Brave. Obedient Vedel. Loving. Healing Paliah. Learned. Giving Shalash. Creative. (Destructive) Honest Battar. Wise. Careful Kalak. Resolute. (Weak-willed) Builder Talenel. Dependable. (Erratic) Resourceful Ishar. Pious. (Traitorous) Guiding These are based off of what we have seen or heard in the books so far. These are not perfect words, but the 17th shard manymind will probably come up with better. There are some subtle indications that only 9 of the 10 fool's have a strong history or mythology. Here is one concerning Lyft and pancakes. I think I subconsciously connected Lyft's silly quest to eat all 10 Pancakes with the 10 fool's. Research could not find a direct correlation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jezrien gives up on protecting humanity personally, submits to the Will of the group, and sacrifices Talenel to uphold the entire oathpact. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Nale shifts from Just- working within the accepted standards of right and wrong to Arbitrary- following the rule of law without regards to morality.....he goes straight lawful evil. From Edgedancer Chapter 9, page 596 Arcanum Unbound, location 8565 Judgement not Justice. From Edgedancer Chapter 9, page 596 Arcanum Unbound, location 8565 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Shalash is pretty clear with her running around destroying art, and significantly art that depicts her and other heralds. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Kalak is in no way resolute when Jezrien meets him. He is in fact very weak willed, confessing that he cannot go back. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Talenel (if it really is him) comes back a broken man, highly erratic and unable to perform his duties as the Herald of War. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ishar formed the Knights Radiant originally, he led the Bondsmiths. He was also the one who promulgated the traitorous idea that 1 Herald could support the Oathpact. From Edgedancer: And And ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 5) We know there were not literally 99 desolation. I suspect there were 9. One each time Odium broke a Herald. Then the next time that Herald would not be tortured as hard so that about her would break first. Nine also being the number of Odium I believe would work well with this. After the Oathpact was discarded, Odium let humanity rewrite Roshar's history and religion in preparation for the Final Desolation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 6) The corruption of the 9 Heralds weakened Honor, but the Knights Radiant provided some support, until the Day of Requience when they abandoned all their oaths. Honor shattered shortly after. I have to go back and find some more quotes and WOB to fully support some of this, but I will edit them in as I find them.

I like most of what you say, there are 2 points I disagree with though. I do not think the cognitive realm is flat.....I am leaning towards something like a mobius strip, where the entire realm twists throughout spacetime yet only has one surface. In this scenario, rather like mass warping space via gravity, you have senescence warping cognitive "space" forming areas with specific rules and allowing the possibility of passage between the physical and cognitive. I think a third component from the spiritual realm must facilitate this passage. I do not think that a meeting point has to necessarily be between the major shard worlds either, just someplace easily accessed from all. Almost like there is a highway system that converges there....like the Hub in Scalzi's The Collapsing Empire.

NICE! Two things: I consciously ignored Aimian as a separate language and grouped it with the Iri because the island had basically undergone a geonocide, or at least a purge and that seemed like it would generate a lot of regret. Second, I thought that I read that one of the 3 language groups had been traced back to Dawnsgate in one of the forums, just haven't had time to do any real research and won't until finals are done Thursday. Last thank you for the support.

One small issue I have thought of is that there are 3 Nexuses....Nexi? On the map.. which could indicate the 3 worlds in some way but at the same time I see correlations between the 3 seas and the 3 language groups.....The easiest is the sea of lost lights over the Vorin regions. Alethela was the 1 kingdom that always trained for war, to be prepared to train and lead the other 9 I the event of a desolation. The Knights Radiant worked with them constantly until the Recquience. Spren bonds gave them light eyes. Their armor glowed. Until they forsake their vows and then it turned a dull gray is seen in Dalimars. The rulers and nobles had light eyes, as do the rulers now, but the current ones are lost from the path of leading honorably. I have been thinking about this some more. Assuming this map only shows the local region of the cognitive realm around Roshar, on a larger map it would probably label this section as the Expanse of Something.

Ashen and Braize are on the Shadesmar map. This all comes from my ramblings on the Cosmere Maps thread but I'm consolidating it as a concise theory here. First: People seem to use the term Shadesmar and Cognative Realm interchangeably. So I just kept plugging along assuming that Shadesmar was the local term for the Cognative Realm on Roshar. Same thing, different places call the same things different names. Like some places it will be a water fountain, others a water cooler, others a bubbler, and others a scuttlebutt. No it is like Utah, United States of America. It is Shadesmar, Cognative Realm of the Cosmere. It is a zip code....An area code. My epiphany...which most of you knew already I assume...came because I realized that the Expanses looked like Mountain ranges growing bigger and taller in the sky. Almost reaching up to touch the Physical Realm at those 4 corners. @KidWayne map Clearly shows the Roshar System as the only known named system between the 4 Expances if we assume that we have associated them correctly. Now this is the KEY PART. Shadesmar is NOT a map of the Cognatve Realm, NOR is it a map of the planet of Roshar alone. It is a map of the entire Rosharan system. There are 2 more mountain ranges on the Shadesmar map. The Nexus of Transition and the Nexus of Imagination. Both are much closer to the 3 seas (3 dif credit to One Who Connects for languagues) 5 different language groups, and possibly different origin planets of the people of Roshar). 2 mountains not identified and 2 additional inhabited planet's in the Roshar system. The Rosharan system map shows both planets about the same distance from Roshar, but due to smaller orbits, Roshar and Ashyn should pass closer together more frequently than Roshar and Braise. Also sickness plays a key part on Ashyn. People Transition from healthy to sick and sick to healthy. I also can't think of anything more imaginary ie from the mind...than a planet full of cognitive shadow splinters. Therefore, my theory is that the Nexus of Transition is the Cognative pathway to Ashyn and the Nexus of Imagination...which just doesn't quite always touch any of the seas is the Cognative pathway to Braize. I have outlined where the 5 major language groupings occur on Roshar and transposed it to the Shadesmar map. The Vorin line up pretty well with the Sea of Lost lights and reach out towards the Nexus of Imagination. The Makabaki creep out of the Sea of Souls into the Sea of Regret. The Iri straddle the mountains of the Nexus of Transition. Dawnchant based languages survive in isolated and rigorous environments forming enclaves across the map. This could indicate that it originally was the only language and was pushed out by invaders or immigrants to the point that only the most rigorous places maintained the original language much as Spanish and English pushed out Native American languages. WOB on Reddit on language groups Questions and Flaws to be addressed: There are 3 Nexus (yes plural is same except bar on u, I looked it up) but this theory never addresses the Nexus of Truth. Recent ideas also speculate that the nexuses could be indicative of Sephardic influence affecting the CR. Why do the Iri straddle the Nexus of Transition, but not really any of the Seas? If Dawnchant was the original language, where did the other 3 people's come from? "Expanse of Storms" name is credited to @The One Who Connects

Actually my point was about the words "THIS ONE" ie... Mr. T referring to himself.....he saw that he had to prevent himself from obtaining the power bc he would form the bridge if he had it.

Ok, first this might be the wrong location for this question. If so, I apologize, I'm new. Please move or direct me how to move it if this is the wrong location. I am currently rereading WOK and was looking specifically at Voranisn. It seems clear to me that the region underwent a massive change during the war of loss and the winemakers overthrow of the hierocracy. Up until that point the priests directed the religion completetly. Afterwords each individual had the right to choose and follow their own choosen Devotary and Calling to earn Glory. They were no longer guided by a someone else, but we're Autonomous it their religious path? Has this been discussed anywhere else before here?