Spoolofwhool

Why couldn't a Herald be harmed?

It's not the fact that they affect it, but the fact that they're related with time manipulation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like most abilities related to time, such as future sight, has to do with accessing the spiritual realm in order to gain the knowledge.

This looks like a good start: http://coppermind.net/wiki/Category:Religion

First thought. Shardblades do spiritual damage, not neurological damage, providing they're not Nightblood and not cutting through a dead person's head, unless the person is dead, in which case neurological damage is indeed being performed. In any case, I'd say there's a difference between neurological and cognitive. The former has to do with mental processes in the physical while the latter has to do with a being's existence in the cognitive realm. Other than that, I agree with your thoughts about Roshar, though I have to nitpick that Taravangian is afflicted with having empathy and intelligence inversely proportional, which isn't the same as psychopathy really. Regarding Scadrial. I disagree with your final point that having a lot of physical allomancers in the story lends credence to the theory that the world is more inclined towards the physical. All that shows is that is what people understands the most and finds most useful in combat. Also, temporal allomantic powers are more spiritual in nature than physical, so the Cadmium/Bendalloy point is a bit weak. Nalthis makes sense, though I'm curious where the thought that Endowment can see the future came from. Sel makes sense. Overall, your theory that shardworlds are more aligned towards certain realms of realmatic theory than others is something I can agree with based. However, one correction I have to make is this: I don't think shards are aspected. They're basically just spiritual energy with a small cognitive intent attached. They cannot be aspected towards anything, and if Honor was invested on Scadrial instead of Roshar, it would cause a more physical manifestation of investiture.

According to Taravangian, who may or may not be correct, the Unmade are spren, or very similar to them. As such, spren shardblades can probably interact with them to the same degree that they interact with spren, and we haven't had any indication that they can. However, I imagine that they cannot since spren shardblades mainly interact on the spiritual and physical realms, with the exception of Nightblood which annihilates on all three and could certainly destroy an Unmade.

Oh, he changed it? I was under the impression that he said that W&W were just going to be an interlude before he continued with the Eras. The State of Sanderson of 2015 does refer to it as Series 1.5.

Mistborn is only going to Era 3, three trilogies. Wax and Wayne are not part of the Eras.

Hoid didn't write the Ars Arcanum. Also, the two powers being referred to are two surges, or two metallics arts, such as a Twinborn with a feruchemical and an allomantic power. I did address and correct the confusion in the first few replies. Spren and stormlight are a physical representation of a shard's power. Manifestations of investiture is the technical term for the magic systems.

The ars arcanum of the Wax and Wayne mistborn books states that allomancy, feruchemy and hemalurgy are the manifestations of investiture on Scadrial. By that I'm assuming it is the term for the magic systems. My understanding is that "manifestation of investiture" refers to the more abstract system that results from the interactions of a shard's investiture with a planet which is used by the sentient species, ie magic. On the other hand, breath and stormlight are just physical realm representations of a shard's power and investiture. While they are investiture manifested under specific forms, to call them a manifestation of investiture is incorrect as that is a specific term pertaining to what I feel is a fairly defined concept.

Nice theory. Will have to take some time to develop a meaningful response. For now though, I want to point an error I noted on my first read. A manifestation of investiture is the technical term for the magic systems. So allomancy, awakening, forgery, surgebinding and, sand mastery, to name a few, are manifestations of investiture. Spren and stormlight are just cognitive and physical forms of a shard's power.

To start with your original point, I don't believe there really is any comparison between Hemalurgy and Shattering other than the fact that both involve damaging spiritual components. Yes it does, as I have stated. Ruin influences original underlying concept which guides hemalurgy; the concept that more must become less. Other than that, Ruin has no influence on the mechanics of hemalurgy. He cannot control how much is lost, or what effects it has on the person gaining the charge, or making them more prone to his intent. A manifestation of Odium's investiture would not affect the nature of the users, it would just make a magic system based around the concept of hatred, which would then build into a complete system. Ruin does want destruction, and influences people in that direction to achieve his goal of destruction. There is no doubt of that. However, neither kandra, nor koloss, nor inquistors were created by Ruin, since Ruin cannot actually create. That's why he had to team with Preservation. Also, kandra don't need to kill. This has been repeatedly mentioned over the course of Era 1 and W&W. They can digest dead bodies. Not to mention that it was TLR that created Mistwraith and the spikes that evolved them into kandra. Koloss are violent because of the diminished intelligence and the way they were created, once again by TLR. Inquisitors were once again created by TLR. While it was stated by Ruin that he influenced TLR into created the hemalurgical constructs so that Ruin could have servants and an army when he was free, by no means does this remotely approach Ruin creating them. This shows to me you don't understand how the manifestations of investiture systems came to be. Hemalurgy cannot come from another shard at all. It exists solely because Ruin granted the underlying concept. It isn't "A magic to steal spiritual which is influenced by Ruin to cause a deterioration in the stolen attributes." Rather, it's "A magic based around Ruin's concept of eventual destruction, which developed into a system of stealing spiritual to follow that concept." While it's possible that a system to steal spiritual could be formed by another shard, it likely wouldn't bear any resemblances to hemalurgy, as it would be based on a completely different concept. Furthermore, kandra starting as mistwraiths has zero bearing on hemalurgy whatsoever. Zilch. They are mistwraiths because TLR made them so. Spikes just give them sentience to act. As for koloss and inquistors, while I have no doubt that their flaws are perhaps unavoidable, those flaws are just due to the underlying mechanics, plus how spiritwebs works. Final but minor correction. TLR learned how to make inquisitors, koloss and kandra while he was ascended. This was stated in Hero of Ages. Afterwards he never learned how to make any other effective constructs. Also, reminder that hemalurgy doesn't require death. Overall, I just want to say that the reason that I'm being so critical, is that while you have some interesting theories, the discussion is revealing that you are basing them on flawed premises. A fair number of premises, the ones I've been correcting so vehemently, are ones which have been directly portrayed as incorrect by both stories or WoB. While a number of the incorrect premises are minor, some them, such as hemalurgy being able to manifest as a result of another shard's investiture, are rather major. These incorrect premises, in my opinion, are coming together to make for a flawed theory.

I see. Honestly, in my opinion, most of what you're suggesting doesn't seem that viable based on current mechanics. I suppose that future mechanics could appear which make it possible, but they seem so random, there wouldn't any reason why they would. Unless you have some suggestions as to how these would occur, I think it would be best to shelve this line of conversation for another time or topic and stay on track with spiking Lift.

Point that Sanderson didn't clarify whether the metalmind would just resist or actually fully stop it from cutting through.

First of all, I doubt that Hoid is that interested in stealing abilities with hemalurgy. His MO seems more to gain access to abilities by more natural and permanent methods. Secondly, it's not exactly converting the power of Preservation into the power of Honor, at least not directly. What's actually happening is that the power of Preservation is being used to create calories which she then burns, similar to metals in allomancy, to create a gate to tap on the power Honor. Yes, the net result is power of Preservation is becoming the power of Honor, but she isn't actually converting the powers from one to the other, she would just be taking advantage of intermediary states she can access. Just a nitpick though. Overall, you have to take into account that every shard's power is essentially the same, just with very slight variation, so using one for the other isn't really that game-breaking in my opinion. It's like the difference between stirring a chemical reaction or heating it to make it go faster, you're just adding energy to it in either case. While other cross-usages will probably occur, I don't think they'll be as straight out there as directly using stormlight to fuel aons, or using the Dor to awaken. Main point probably being that each of those conversions are across different methods of fueling the manifestation of investiture. Stormlight for awakening is probably the most viable since breath and stormlight are both internal power.

The possibility of a person surviving hemalurgy doesn't disprove your idea, just your hammer analogy, which is all I used it for. Overall, I still disagree with your belief that Ruin affects hemalurgy more than just its general concept. With allomancy, Preservation only influenced its concept that it allows the user to preserve their strength. The same is with hemalurgy. Ruin influenced its concept that it causes a general deterioration of sDNA. Other than that, there really are no other side effects. Anything else that occurs is the result of forcefully grafting foreign sDNA fragments onto someone's spiritweb, which as we know has cognitive and physical effects. These effects can occur as a result of other spiritweb changes as well, so it isn't exclusive to hemalurgy either. While hemalurgy is definitely more difficult then neurosurgery when considering the grafting aspect, I don't think people are as blindly stealing pieces as you portray. Each spike type more-or-less steals a specific narrow range of attributes. While there is wiggle room for each spike, once you determine the attributes a spike steal, nearly all of the guesswork is gone. All that you have left is the very complicated guesswork of determining the right bind point for the spike.

At the very least, we know it would take at most a thousand breaths in an awakened object. I'm assuming this because that's how many Nightblood has and it has been described as a shardblade far stronger than normal shardblades which probably means that it can block them. With regards to a person being resistant, probably about that amount. If you could create a Type IV construct out of a body, then it might be resistant to shardblade attacks. Other than that, we can't really say, though probably a lot, since Szeth in a highstorm couldn't stop Kaladin from cutting him. As to whether it would damage a person's spiritweb, it would depend. If the invested energy is coming from a large external pool like allomancy, then yes, the continual flow would likely damage the spiritweb. If it' sandy internal storage investiture like surgebinding, then no. Honestly though, overall, I don't think it's possible barring ascension. For a living creature to block a regular shardplate, it would need a greatly increased soul, which I don't think investiture generally augments. For a living creature to block Nightblood.... It would need to be strong enough to defend itself on all three realms.

Pretty sure the bodies are vaporized then recreated. Sazed described it as such. We're not talking about putting the entire power of the shard in the avatar. We're more imaging creating a living body that lacks a cognitive but which is directly controlled by the shard as an extension of its cognitive. Back to the main question of why shards don't use avatars. Honestly, I don't see why they need to. They're god-entities who can see anywhere and in most cases talk to anyone anywhere directly in their thoughts. Why waste time moving a physical pawn to interact with people when you can move them directly? Even if you want a more subtle manipulation that should still be possible. Also, doing so might actually limit the shard. Controlling the avatar might force them to concentrate to much on it that they won't be able to pay attention to much else

I can agree with that. The mist spirit is cognitive interacting with the physical realm in a similar method that the shades of Threnody do. However, I don't think it is anywhere close enough to qualify as a physical manifestation of a shard.

I don't think the mist spirit is really in the physical realm. It seemed more to me like a cognitive shadow, the remnants of cognitive that Leras has left, with a tiny bit of power, enough power to cause slight effects in the physical realm.

Yes. I still disagree however. There is no difference between taking an ability or a piece of Preservation using hemalurgy, or creating an inquisitor, kandra or koloss. In all pf these cases, you are taking a piece of someone's spiritweb and affixing it to another being's spiritweb with the intent of changing it in some significant way, either by creating a new specie in the case of inquisitors or koloss, or by granting sentience in the case of kandra. I don't fully understand your "spy glass circle cutter" analogy, though my guess is that you're referring to etching a circle into a glass then breaking it, so the circle will come out as the force of the break follows the weakened points of the line. If that's the case, and you're saying that abilities are easier to steal because they're more defined in the spiritweb, I still disagree, though I admit that your point has some slight merit when it comes to allomancy. It has been stated that when using allomancy, the power of Preservation flowing through the spiritweb can causes some damage, which leads to savantism. So slight merit there. However, there doesn't seem to be anything that indicates other abilities leave a deeper mark on the spiritweb than the general make-up of the spiritweb. Also, I really don't think hemalurgy is akin to hammering a window and taking a shard of the glass. The surgical cutting analogy is much better. If the hammer one were true, then hemalurgy would probably always kill the person being used to charge the spike, since I doubt you can live with a destroyed spiritweb. However, it has been confirmed that you can spike someone to fill a charge and have them survive.

Shards have manifested physically in multiple books. Atium, lerasium, the Well of Ascension, the Mists, the shardpool in Elantris, shardblades, and probably shardplates, are all a shard's power in the physical realm, with a physical form. However, I assume you're talking more like the complete shard creating a physical avatar which they can use to interact with the world. I presume this is possible, though I doubt we have seen anything of the like yet. Nor do I think that it is likely to occur. Regarding your other theory. I do not think that Navani is Cultivation. Main point is that Hoid knows Cultivation, and, I'm fairly certain, has seen, or even spoken to Navani, and I don't doubt that he would recognize her if he did. Yes, it may be possible for her to try to hide it, but I doubt it. Also, shards seem inclined to not take direct involvement with the actions of people, and if Navani were Cultivation, she would be doing so to a great degree.

Stormlight is energy. It doesn't have a physical presence, any more than breath does. On Roshar, the movement and changing of spren in a major way possibly has a side effect of diminishing heat in the origin of the effect. So when a shardblade is summoned, the dead spren is moving to the physical realm from the cognitive or when Kaladin or Szeth last they're manipulating gravity spren.

Spiking a person doesn't take intent from them, you're just taking a piece of their spiritweb. In addition, new species experimentation includes inquisitors since they according to Sazed they are not human, just like allomantic savants. So your point of intent somehow changing koloss and kandra but not inquisitors doesn't hold since inquisitors were formed in the same way, just with more spikes and many containing abilities related to manifestations of investitures instead of the piece of preservation with people. Ruin doesn't affect hemalurgy directly. Its existence is a natural factor of his involvement with Scadrial. The only influence he has over it is that he can provide the intent necessary for a spike to be charged and that he can access the cognitive of a person spiked through the tears in their spiritual. Overall, I think you're putting too much thought into the relation between hemalurgy and Ruin. Hemalurgy is not something that he designed, it's a natural process which arose as a result of Ruin's influence, with a mechanic associated with Ruin's intent. How hemalurgy changes a species is a result of the hemalurgic charge interacting with their spiritweb. If Ruin wanted to change an entity, he would have to do so directly himself.

Atium isn't a gateway, it's direct power in physical form. I agree with Jondesu theory. Technically, all metals are physical representations of a mix of Ruin's and Preservation's power, but in a far lower concentration. Atium, is the condensed form of a lot of power, so when it's burned, it releases a tangible effect. Other metals don't have anywhere close to enough power for that, so they just act as a gateway to Preservation's power instead. That being said, although Atium is in a greater Power-to-Mass ratio than normal metals, it doesn't actually contain raw investiture so it can be affected by steel/iron allomancy or easily used to form Atium metalminds or spikes.

It has been stated that Parshmen are Listeners who are not bonded to a spren to grant them a more conscious form. The original Voidbringers who were Listeners were likely stopped in the method you described, which is what breaking the spren bond does. Parshmen cannot become Radiants however, they can only bond with spren to become rhythm-aware Listeners. Edit: Thanks to @PallonianFire for correcting me. I retract my earlier statement that parshman cannot become Radiants since Brandon certainly has implied it strongly. However, the theory that only parshmen, sprenless Listeners, can be Radiants is one that I doubt. Since the original questions were regarding Listeners becoming Radiants. In any case, I think that if a parshman bonded with a spren to become a Radiant, he would become a Listener as well as a result of the bond.