Erklitt

6 hours ago, Three1415 said:

As does having some ability to interpret questions. I was skeptical of a surprising claim that was made, and wished to see the source; none of the information in your previous post addresses mine directly, nor does it clarify the very issue I wished to resolve--indeed, I raised my question due to that information, rather than in spite of it, as you presumed. 

Ok, first: sorry if my one-liner came out rather rude. I apologize.

I just get a little frustrated sometimes about an occasional phenomenon of which this thread is a good example: I guess all of us sometime state half-remembered or misremembered WoBs as fact, that's human and in itself isn't a problem. But when someone else remembers something different, often the facts aren't checked, instead everyone continues on their own assumptions, and true discussion becomes harder and harder.

Since such different memories of WoBs concerning the god orders / surges were cited here, I decided to do a thorough search of WoBs for the topic and bring us all on the same page - to avoid that very phenomenon. I think I was pretty thorough, searching theoryland for the order names, surge names, and various expressions like 'god surge', 'god order' etc., each individually, so as not to miss anything. And I was surprised to find that Brandon never (as far as I can find) mentioned the existence of 'god orders' and didn't really take to the expression 'god surges' either - all that was interpretation. Not necessarily wrong, but still interpretation. So, I read your post and thought: "Hey, I just showed there is no such WoB! That all came from the one about Syl and Wyndle!" But I realize that 1) I didn't mention how thorough my search had been and 2) even if I had of course you didn't have to believe I'd found everything.

And if there is really such a WoB about the Edgedancers and Windrunners being god orders and I missed it, I'd sure like to know!

1 hour ago, Three1415 said:

Can someone find the WoB that says the Edgedancers and the Windrunners are the 'god orders?' I haven't been able to locate it myself, and given the Bondsmith's and the Truthwatcher's central position in the diagram, and the fact that the Bondsmiths at least bond with the remainder of Honor himself, I find it unlikely the first two are the god orders, and would like to see confirmation...

Just go up three posts from your own. Last quote. Actually reading what went before sometimes helps...

5 hours ago, Radiant Returned said:

For skaa I think a lot of them simply didn't. At some point if they reach a certain amount of wealth or rebellion I'd imagine they buy a vial of metals and try burning all of them. Go from there, I assume that's what the nobles did. There aren't a lot of Skaa mistings in Mistborn besides those that are already rebelling. 

As far as Sigzil goes, I hadn't noticed those passages and it's an interesting theory. But while there isn't anything substantive I can think of that proves the theory wrong, I think it's more likely based on Sigzil's personality that he's just a good listener and understands humans and so is easy to open up to. 

The nobles beat their children near the point of death to see if they snap, afterwards I'm sure they test them. As for skaa, wealth and rebellion would not be enough, it also takes knowledge. While skaa seem to be aware there are people with strange powers known as Allomancers, I don't think the connection to certain metals is general knowledge. So the real percentage of skaa Mistings would be lot higher then the known figures.

I also always put this scene down to Sigzil's personality, and I still think that's probably it. But that scene with Teft is somehow suggestive...

@Khyrindor Nice idea.

2 hours ago, Eki said:

Is that second paragraph from Sigzil's PoV?

No, it's Teft's. AFAIK, we have no Sigzil POVs.

49 minutes ago, Emerald101 said:

IIRC the reason Vin wasn't burning the other metals instinctively was because there wasn't enough traces of them in her diet. There was brass in the water and pewter from the utensils she used, but she didn't ingest enough of the other metals to use them. And if Hoid had made Sigzil a mistborn, don't you think he would've taught Sigzil at least the basics of allomancy?

Whether the problem is instinct or lack of metals, each could be the reason in both cases.  You made me wonder: how do skaa Mistings discover their Allomancy at all? How do they realize they've snapped, if they never imbibe their metal by accident and no one tests them? After the mist sickness it takes Elend's sudden idea to find the new Mistings. What was it like for Clubs, for example? How does one discover that one can burn copper?  That may actually be a hole in the Mistborn world building... anyway, so let's say Sigzil never imbibed pewter or tin. They do have tin cups on Roshar (just checked), but that doesn't mean Sigzil regularly drinks from one.

As to your second argument: who says Hoid didn't teach him? Do we know he isn't doing it on purpose? Without a Sigzil POV we really cannot tell. The biggest question for me is: why would Hoid give his lerasium to Sigzil? But he's Hoid, so asking a 'why' question is not likely to get an answer anytime soon.

Edit: Sigzil is a very reticent man. Again, I don't think this whole theory very likely, but in my opinion it's not quite impossible that Sigzil could hide such a secret.

Certainly a very interesting idea.

@Sam Script Maybe it's a good idea to put a 'Mistborn Spoilers' marker in the topic title, or we will have to put half of our arguments in spoiler boxes.

I'm not sure Hoid could have made him an Allomancer by accident - I have no idea how anyone could become an Allomancer outside Scadrial except through a lerasium bead.

I see only two possibilities:
- Sigzil is a Worldhopper
- Hoid gave him his lerasium

Both might be possible.
- Sigzil is called Azish, but that might be a cover. I can find no solid reason against Sigzil being a Worldhopper,
- And Hoid had that bead.

I tend to think this excerpt from Hoid's letter is about the lerasium bead:

Quote

Let me first assure you that the element is quite safe. I have found a good home for it. I protect its safety like I protect my own skin, you might say.
WoK Ch. 14 Payday p. 211 kindle edition

While Sigzil might be considered a 'good home', the latter half doesn't seem to fit - except if the letter was written while they were still together, and Sigzil was under Hoid's protection. Possible - we know Hoid actually did some protecting ('saving him'). And I might misinterpret that passage anyway.

One more point in support: there are brass plates used on Roshar. He could have the trace minerals in his stomach.

Quote

Sadeas's half-eaten meal still sat on the table, brass plate scattered with chunks of meat and torn flatbread.
WoK Ch. 22 Eyes, Hands, or Spheres? p. 335 kindle edition

There's no mention of pewter anywhere in SA so far (kindle search is a great help in such things). So, in case he's a Mistborn, there's no problem about why he doesn't manifest extraordinary strength and speed. The other metals are probably not used so easily by instinct - see Vin.

So my conclusion: quite possible! Though I'm not sure I think it likely... but I like the idea!

So, with all this second hand information what Brandon did or did not say, I searched for various related catchwords. This is what I came up with:

Quote

Khyrindor: Are there Surges that could be considered as God Surges, like the God metals on Scadrial?
Brandon Sanderson (Paraphrased): Yes.
Khyrindor: Progression and Adhesion, perhaps?
Brandon Sanderson (Paraphrased) : No, but they could be considered as such.

[Later:]

Q: The "God Surges" you mentioned recently, are they a part of the WoK frontsheet?
Brandon Sanderson:   All I said regarding this was to tell a fan that it was possible to make an analogy between the god metals on Scadrial and certain powers on Roshar. However, these are not a codified part of the magic system.

Quote

ZAS : Nohadon mentioned that "All the spren aren’t as discerning as honorspren."

BRANDON SANDERSON: So there has been dissension among them about who gets to call themselves honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know "This is what defines an honorspren".

But the spren you are running into are all (something) of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able to be (something).

Quote

Question: Is Cultivation's Shardholder still alive.

Brandon Sanderson: Good question, what do you think?

Question: I want to say, but that's based on my knowledge before I read Lift's interlude from Words of Radiance. Now I am leaning towards no. Based on that interlude, it looks like spren have essence from both Honor and Cultivation. It's almost like they exist in a spectrum, on one end of which is Honor, and on the other - Cultivation; so there are spren that are, for the lack of better example, 90% Honor and 10% Cultivation, and there are spren that are 15% Honor and 85% Cultivation.

Brandon Sanderson: That's a very astute observation!

Question: And since we know that Honor is Splintered, then it might be the case that Cultivation is also Splintered, and their Splinters form the spren.

Footnote: In a prior signing report it was revealed that Cultivation's shardholder is indeed alive.

Quote

Question: Syl identifies herself as an honorspren.

Brandon Sanderson: Yes.

Question: Would Wyndle identify himself as a cultivation spren? [Pause]

Brandon Sanderson: Yes. I think you could say that he would.

Question: By the same logic, would a voidspren follow the same naming convention, so to speak?

Brandon Sanderson: Here's the thing. Certain spren have decided that they are the most pure forms of honor, or that they are the most pure form of whatever, where all of them are kind of... Syl's got a good argument for what she is. But there are other spren that would be like "well, I'm an honorspren too, I'm just this variety of honorspren." Does that make sense? Syl's like "I'm an American!" and I'm like "I'm an Alaskan!" Yes, you're an American. I'm an American too. It's kind of similar to that. But she would be the most pure... many would view her as the purest form. Wyndle would view himself as the purest form of a cultivation spren.

That's really not much to go by, and throws my earlier speculations right off again. But maybe it will help the discussion.

9 hours ago, Figberts said:

3: This image seems to be carved on stone. Does it actually exist? Will anybody eventually find it?

They know at least a simplified version, and understand what it means (and with 'they' I mean interested scholars, like Jasnah):

Quote

[Jasnah] flipped through one of her books, stopping at an illustration. Shallan had seen it before; it was as ancient as Vorinism. Ten spheres connected by lines forming a shape like an hourglass on its side. Two of the spheres at the center looked almost like pupils. The double eye of the Almighty.
"Ten essences," Jasnah said softly. She ran her fingers along the page. Ten Surges. Ten orders. [...]"

WoR ch. 6 p 109 kindle edition

There's a rather militaristic version under the archway of chapter headings with non-standard POVs, and I think I've seen an even simpler version somewhere  (just spheres and lines), but I can't remember where. I would expect them to find the original at Urithiru , it certainly wasn't a big secret.

What I find interesting is that 4 orders have 4 connections to other orders, while the rest have only three. Assuming the lines between the orders mean anything. Each order has a connection to those next to it and to the one opposite; Windrunners, Edgedancers, Lightweavers and Stonewardens have an additional connction 'three orders up / down'.

So: if Windrunners and Edgedancers are the orders closest to the two 'benevolent' shards, what about the other two? What is the balance here? I don't think we can fit Odium in here, the KR were created to fight him (or rather his desolations). Maybe the  right hand side is the 'shard-centered' side, the left hand one the 'human-centered'? Truthwatchers and Bondsmiths stand in the middle as 'liaison' - for the Bondsmiths at least a very fitting position. And judging from Renarin's character the same could be true for the Truthwatchers. Windrunners and Edgedancers somehow combine and work together as the 'shardic backbone' of the KR, Lightwatchers and Stonewardens as the 'human backbone'? Now it gets pretty speculative I admit...

Edit: what I just dubbed the 'human side' also contains the three orders that have a special connection to Shadesmar. Vague ideas why they are somehow 'opposed' to the shardic side: Humans dabbling with the Cognitive Realm directly... spren created by the workings of the human mind (the Cryptics' 'mathematical identity' - Patterns true name would be numbers - would fit that)...

Edit2: Oh, and hello @FourthBridge, welcome to the Shard!

7 hours ago, Argel said:

And applying our laws to a medieval/ level society is a stretch at times. What we might call vigilante justice might be just fine for them.

Thanks for bringing this up again, though no one seems to want to hear it. I vote this thread is renamed: how would USA law apply to SA characters. Which is a topic that I seem to remember having seen discussed at length on other threads...  Also your latest post: I'm sure Alethi and Jah Keved laws followed common sense as opposed to modern legal hairsplitting.

About the quick unbondings: I think we just have to admit that even Brandon is not absolutely perfect.  I believe that the reason for Danlinar just sticking his Blade into the ground without any visible unbonding process in WoK is that at that time, this process hadn't yet been defined. Szeth is different: he had an Honorblade, and there is a WoB that Honorblades can't be bound, they can only be given. So just mentally 'giving it back' or rather 'reject the continuation of the gift' might be enough.

As for Dalinar quickly unbonding the second blade, I had always thought the Stormfather did that. But I like the idea of that being due to Dalinar's newfound strength with bonds.

39 minutes ago, maxal said:

Was Kaladin being made a slave illegal? It was wrong, but was it illegal considering Alethi laws? I am asking because I am not sure. 

Shallan killing her parents is definitely illegal. While killing her mother certainly was self-defense, killing her father wasn't. In order for it to be self-defense, her life would have needed to be in danger and it wasn't. You can't kill to protect someone and the use of poison marks it as a first degree premeditated murder. Harsh? Yes, but true. Modern day laws would condemn Shallan for the murder of her father. Her actions definitely were illegal.

It is hard to tell if Dalinar did anything illegal or not: Sadeas hinted he may have killed people for a yes or for a no.

Jasnah most definitely committed first degree murder when she killed those thugs. Her intend was to kill people and she killed fleeing men when her life was not threaten: it wasn't self-defense. Her only legal means is the fact it is actually hard to prove it wasn't self-defense but us, the readers, we do know it wasn't. What she did was the darkest actions we have seen a Radiant do on screen. It was deliberate and it was brutal. True enough though, Nale may not have the arguments to convict her, but she definitely broke the law.

Was Kaladin made a slave illegally? I don't know either, but my guess would be yes. Kaladin had committed no crime. Amaram does have great power over the people living on his land, he can draft soldiers against their will for example. But make a soldier a slave without good reason? I don't think so.

In the case of Shallan, I think you are projecting too much of modern day western legal systems into Alethi laws. And even today, when the only way to stop an attacker from killing you or a third party is to kill them first, that is not illegal. The latter gives the same right as self defense, and Shallan was protecting Balat. I agree that the way she killed her father wouldn't count as such a case under modern law - when he slowly came to after the poisoning, they should have been able to restrain him somehow without killing him. But I doubt such niceties can be projected to Jah Keved.

Same with Jasnah: she killed men who had tried to kill her. Her first kill was definitely not illegal, wouldn't even have been today. She was allowed to go where she went. She was attacked, her life was threatened. The attackers were physically stronger and had superior numbers. The only means to defend herself against them was her ability to soulcast. How else could she have kept Shallan and herself alive? Killing the other three after they had turned to flee of course wouldn't stand as self-defense under modern law, but again: that's a very modern point of view. They had just tried to kill her.

Just ... WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!
for that haunted look on Laral's face where she wears the bride's prayer.

Honestly, I didn't realize something like that was even possible in that kind of 'comic inspired' style.
(And I sure hope I'm not treading any dangerous ground here with that wording - I am such a non-artist )

I'm absolutely not into the who's who of cover art, but I remember reading that artist is very well known and it was Brandon's dream to have him one day paint the cover for a book of his. So my guess is his instructions just weren't clear enough, and he's too famous for arguing with him about it afterwards.

1 hour ago, Rasarr said:

Also, @Erklitt, I don't think Nale is coming for Adolin anytime soon. The last we've seen of him, he was setting out for Shinovar, and newsletter's excercept places him somewhere in Lift's vicinity (Tashikk?).

Read the scene again - you're probably right. I remembered it rather as Nale sending Szeth to Shinovar. But it does rather sound like Nale is coming along.

1 hour ago, summersnow said:

Nale wasnt certain what Lift was.

I think Nale could be mad enough that finding someone with one surge that might make them an Edgedancer would be reason enough for him. But I agree that theory is out, for other reasons (see above)

16 minutes ago, Eki said:

And I'm not sure why people are talking about Nale not going to the Shattered Plains (haven't read everything, sorry)... He did, he's there at the end of WoR. As to why he didn't go there before, I think everyone makes great points. He needs the law to agree with him, and that would be difficult to achieve for him there.

You're absolutely right! I guess I had taken it for granted that he just came there to get Szeth and so never made that connection. I'm beginning to think Nale could turn into a great problem with the Adolin situation, were he to show signs of bonding (as I almost expect). Trumped up old charges are one thing, but a recent manslaughter might be much harder for Elhokar to pardon without losing all credibility as king. His hold on power is tenuous enough as it is.

I think I just found (almost) proof against the 'Nale hunts only Edgedancers' theory. I read the Newsletter Lift story again for clues what made them 'huntworthy', and instead found this:

Wyndle doesn't sound like he's one of many of his kind who were sent. I rather get the impression he was the only one; there may have been a few. But so many that Nale could 'kill his way across Roshar'? Well, maybe some spren have been 'host-hopping' after a murder. But still, it doesn't seem to fit.

2 hours ago, galendo said:

I would like my ancient, evil spren to be scarier antagonists than that, thank you.

I'm beginning to think I need to get the hardcovers just for those extras, even though I probably will never actually read them. I imagine they must be rather bulky, and I like reading with the book held in one hand, which makes the kindle just ideal.

The points made here are too good to ignore, especially about Ym's personality and his asking for stories fitting the Edgedancer oath.

I just re-read the Nale-Lift scene. If he is hunting Edgedancers, then he's being pretty straightforward about it. I had taken his "You are an Edgedancer" as meaning "You are a surgebinder", but whatever he means he seems to be honest. And he states as his reason for pursuing her that she 'dabbles in arts that could return desolation to this world'.

So I think the question would be: what is it about Edgedancers that is more likely to bring a desolation than the doings of any other KR order?

What do we know about them? The in-world WoR states they are deadly, but I don't think they are more so then some other orders. And they are graceful, articulate and refined. We know they are compassionate, and we know their surges. And their first specific oath.

Maybe there's something in the 'rememberance'? "I will remember those who have been forgotten" sounds innocent enough, but maybe Edgedancers tend to remember more than they should. Things that, if remembered, can bring a desolation?? Still no real idea what that could be...

Edit: I just thought of another reason why Nale isn't going to the Shattered Plains. (So, one more argument against him hunting only Edgedancers) He always adheres to the laws of the land and accepted Gawx's pardon of Lift. (Only while she was there of course, but still.) And Elhokar could pardon any crime Nale might dig out for Dalinar and co. Dalinar says so clearly, in the Kaladin affair: "You can pardon any crime, as king." Maybe Nale just knows he can't touch the Surgebinders once they are under the protection of the Alethi crown, so he tries to find the 'budding ones' before they make it there.

@Ari Thanks for the info! I really appreciate it.

Found out about Dragonsteel's BYU existence in the meantime, after being stymied by seeing so many references to it, especially on the coppermind, without any traces of a published book available for sale. So yesterday I started a determined search of WoB's ...

Thinking back, I believe I had somehow inferred that Dragons were the native race of Yolen, which I knew from the Liar of Partinel fragment and thought to be the same world Dragonsteel was set on; so to my mind Hoid being from that world automatically made him a Dragon. Anyway, I've accepted the inevitable and changed my signature slightly...  (which is the main reason behind my disappointment that Hoid is NOT a Dragon ) Whitespine just doesn't work quite as well ... but at least it's in the text.

@What's a Seawolf? Great idea about the city being important here. I never thought about it before, but Sesemalex Dar gets a surprising coverage for a city we've never even been to in the story. What with Kaladin seeing it in his dream, asking Sigzil about it and getting a ton of information in return - and then those mentions connected to its ruler.  There has to be something about it beyond its tourist sights.

I wonder whether Ym ever took such a quiz...

Honestly, I like the idea of such a quiz in principle. But with the little information we have so far we really could quite as well draw lots. Or ask Renarin.

@ParadoxSpren, @Eki The last vision was a very little bit of foresight, and Honor himself says he is bad at it. It's not really his thing, just like Syl says. ('Foretelling the future is not of Honor' or something like that.)

@ParadoxSpren Maybe I missed something in your argument: I don't see why Renarin's spren being of Cultivation would make it necessary to keep it a mystery? Wyndle is at least close to Cultivation too, and we have seen him.

@Yata Certainly possible. But I don't think so. For one thing, that doesn't sound like too big a spoiler if we realized that. So Nale may come for Renarin someday - is that reason enough for such a mystery? It won't be the only danger Renarin will be in. The second reason I don't think so is the Lift excerpt from the newsletter.

The third reason is my 'The Faithful Order hides as the Shin leadership, and Nale hunts them' theory of a few days ago.

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/55169-the-stone-shamans-and-the-faithful-order-extended-version/

I do agree though that in the special texture of Lift's POV, there's a lot of potential for red herrings, which might void reason 2. 1 is a matter of taste, and 3 is just my own woolgathering, so you might be on to something.

Not very creative, I know, but possibly Ishar? Setting himself up as God-King would fit the description of a 'pious / guiding' herald run rampant.

52 minutes ago, Chull #445 said:

I thought Dalinar carved those glyphs while having his visions.

The truth is we don't really know. But many think (myself included) that Renarin used Dalinar's knife. On every occurence, he was or could have been nearby. Honor's visions are not really foresight, while the glyphs are. And in the oathgate control room (? did that room have a name?) Renarin writes those zeroes which seem to be the end of the countdown. So there's some evidence pointing to him.

Maybe Glys looks like small brown bubbles clinging to objects nearby? Do Alespren bond?

Sorry, just kidding! Couldn't help myself... Actually, I didn't know about that WoB but wondered why we didn't see Glys after we'd already seen Ym's spren. (I think he's a truthwatcher, although I wouldn't think it entirely impossible that Edgedancer's spren can differ so widely as Ym's spren and Wyndle. They do have some similarities.)

Syl has seen stormspren / voidspren about ... I'd hate a storyline where Renarin turns bad. But what about a storyline where he resists the influence of a bad or corrupted spren, once he realizes what it is? Stays 'good', maybe even 'converts' his spren? I'd like to see that... (And something like 'converting spren' needs to be possible, considering Dalinar and the Stormfather.)

12 minutes ago, Sam Script said:

I want to know, who curved glyphs predicting the upcoming of Everstorm in the room? Many said it's Renarin. So if it's true...

Isn't Renarin foreseeing the future? Then, isn't forecasting of Odium?!

(I haven't made much research on this area, so apologize if I said anything incorrect

IIRC Foretelling is of Cultivation. I think Syl's and Vorinism's warning against it has to do with their alignment with Honor (and the history of the Hierocracy) but I don't think we need to accept their verdict that it is bad in itself. Even Honor did a little foretelling in the visions he shows Dalinar.