Erklitt

@PhineasGage, @shadowwisp

Thanks, both of you! I guess my problem was that I was only thinking of spying AGAINST Dalinar / the coalition...

So, maybe I'm being obtuse here. But I really don't know who the spy mentioned on the dust jacket is. And I've found no discussion of it yet (as opposed to the traitor), which I would think odd if it isn't self-evident to everyone else. So, is it?

Of course I've thought of Shallan, in continuation of the previous cover texts.  The 'broken by cruelty, seeking completion' part would fit. But what on earth makes her a spy? Her Ghostblood connection? She hasn't even joined them yet and doesn't really want to. But more importantly, her overall motivation just doesn't fit.

Who else might qualify?

22 hours ago, Krypton Savant said:

You have an infinite supply of ice cream, which makes a black hole in you freezer. The entire world is engulfed in it, but you do get to enjoy all that ice cream while you're being crushed to death inside a collapsed star!

 I wish to learn the arts of everything from Hoid.

Granted. You can now do everything he does. Unfortunately, you don't share his life experience, so you screw up in using your powers. And I mean: Totally. Screw. Up.

The crater left by your fumbling efforts to use your new-found powers would have been named for you, if anyone had known your name.

I wish to be more kindly disposed towards my fellow humans, not enjoying their failures so much.

10 hours ago, I_am_NOT_fire said:

Granted, thay're good, but in the opinion of someone who usually gets bad grades. This means that your grades are kept at a constant average low.

I wish to be better at german.

Granted. Dein Bann besteht darin, dass jedes Buch, das du von nun an in die Hand nimmst, sofort magisch die Sprache wechselt - natürlich zu deutsch. Du wirst nie wieder in einer anderen Sprache lesen. Viel Spaß mit den Sturmlicht Chroniken!

If you understand what your bane is, you know your wish has been granted.

I wish my English were perfect.

This thread, with its repeated mention of Adolin reviving his blade, made me want to picture the moment and inspired me to write my very first, very small piece of fan fiction. I think here is where it fits best, so if you are in the mood for a little silliness: enjoy!

=========================

[The Scene: Adolin alone on the run. It makes no difference whether he flees from the law or Nalan or Szeth or Shallan or ...]

Adolin drove his Shardblade into the ground, commanding it to stay. Storms, he felt so lonely. He needed at least his Blade by his side. He'd taken to talking to it more and more during the long nights and days on the road. What did that say about his sanity... storms, if Shallan knew, he'd never hear the end of it. Or worse, the bridgeboy!

Staring at the ground, Adolin mused about the fact that even the bridgeboys company would be welcome right now.

"Rankle."

Adolin jumped, reaching for his Blade. Where had that voice come from?

The Blade was gone. Looking around wildly for whoever had spoken, Adolin began the summoning process, promply letting go again in surprise when the Blade formed instantly into his outstretched hand. He stared directly at the metal as it dissolved again, momentarily looking like glowing wine ranks that quickly sank to the ground. And continued glowing. Glowing, and sparkling.

"It's my name. I just remembered I have a name. I thought you should know it, so you can call me by it."

Turning left and right, Adolin searched frantically for the source of the voice. It sounded so near. Actually... he stared at the shimmer on the ground next to him. It sounded like the voice came from that. Quickly, he made a step backwards.

In reflex, he began to summon his Blade again. This time, he held on when it dropped into his hand without delay, though he stared at it for a moment in disbelief. He pointed it at the shimmering spot on the ground - but the shimmer was gone.

"Where are you? What are you?" he asked into the night, Blade still pointing at the spot on the ground directly in fromt of him.

"I'm a spren," the Blade said.

Adolin threw the Blade as if it had stung him. He'd seen a mouth open directly below the hilt. Had he lost his mind completely now?

Once again, the Blade dissolved and dropped as a shimmering net of vines to the ground. "Could you please make up your mind whether you want to hold me or not?" The same mouth, now formed of light instead of metal, moved in the middle of the glowing ground.

Adolin suddenly felt weak. He sat down where he stood, staring at the shimmer in front of him. The talking, moving shimmer. His voice trembled slightly as he tried to form a question.

"What... did you... did you just say your name was Rankle?"

"Yes, I did. Nice to meet you."

Adolin felt unreal. His Sword was talking back to him. No, not his Sword now. This strange glowing thing that had been his Sword. Weakness, surprise, exhaustion, it all began to build up into helpless laughter.

"Rankle? Are you serious? I'd imagined something like, I don't know, Voidslayer, or Deathbringer or something. Now you are telling me my Shardblade is named Rankle?"

The voice sounded a little miffed now. "Please, no jokes about my name. I have just remembered... I had enough of those millenia ago."

49 minutes ago, jofwu said:

Dalinar, Adolin, and Kaladin fighting off Szeth in the king's palace? Kaladin on the right with a spear? Can't remember which side he was supposed to be on, but that sounds right.

That's my guess. But then, Dalinar had a spear, too, grabbed from one of Kaladin's guards. It's expressly mentioned how wise that was for better reach than his side sword would have given him...

5 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

3) Adolin was, to an extent, a "proto-Radiant" (this term has no real meaning haha) by being exhibiting the characteristics requires of a certain Order but he never had the proper "cracks" in his soul. He now does so the bonding process began then.

And I think Adolin was already displaying some attributes of an Edgedancer. Not only in his defense of the prostitute, but also in his attitude toward small darkeyed boys, not to mention the way he led the army, completely devoid of any superiority on account of his birth. For a 'spoiled brat' he has behaved surprisingly 'unspoiled' on many occasions when it really counted. A proto-radiant in the works, if ever there was one.

35 minutes ago, maxal said:

Seems a bit sudden though... From what we have seen, forming a Nabel bond is something which happens very slowly. I somehow find it dubious Adolin would suddenly move from "normal guy" to "proto-Radiant" within a few seconds simply because he finally broke down.

I do agree this event likely is enough to call his soul cracked, but it seems too far-fetched to think he has become a proto-knight right here and there. Do we have a rational which can explain how it could be this sudden?

It has to start somewhere, somehow... AFAIK we don't have any clear precedence, we can only guess. With Dalinar, it might have started when he started having the visions, after he had been 'chosen' by the Stormfather. With Shallan: too early for us to see. That garden scene is still wrapped in mysteries... With Kaladin: who knows? Maybe when he volunteered to join Tien in the army, in order to protect him? Anyway, I don't see any reason why this should not have been the moment for Adolin...

35 minutes ago, maxal said:

If he were, he'd have healed his wrist and his bruises. [...]

If I understand Havoc's theory correctly, then he states that Adolin might just now, through snapping in that moment with Sadeas, become a proto-Radiant. Before this, his soul wasn't cracked enough, but now it is. So, before that moment, he would not have been able to use Stormlight, but he is now. That means he didn't have a chance to heal his injuries up to now; we've never seen him with this ability. Maybe we'll find out in Oathbinger that this has changed recently.

3 hours ago, jofwu said:

Granted. All of the Wheel of Time girls worldhop to the Cosmere and teach everyone to tug their braids, smooth their skirts, and sniff incessantly.

Frightening prospect !!  Wish to Harmony BS had decided to have Hoid turn up in WoT instead!

(Edit: just imagining Navani... duck, everyone!! )

3 hours ago, jofwu said:

I wish my allergies would leave me alone.

They do. All that coughing, sneezing and sniffing drives people away from you, leaving you alone indeed.
(Nightwatcher has her 'take-everything-very-literal day.)

I wish I was Kaladin's girlfriend. (Do your worst...)

19 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

Leia views herself as an "Organa", her adopted parent's name, so, due to the powerful affect of the Cognitive Realm she is not actually considered a Skywalker.  

As if Nale cared about that...

26 minutes ago, Argel said:

Interesting theory and different ramifications than what we have been hashing out lately. Also, getting to watch Nalan and Adolin duel would be fun. Or Edgedancer Adolin and Szeth.... Maybe not to be resolved till SA5....

I like the idea of the Nale/Adolin duel. Especially with a revived Shardblade on Adolin's side... Btw, does anyone know (WoB etc) whether Nale is in possession of his own Honorblade, or is that just supposition? His 'Skywalkbreakers' (who I believe, as I think I've mentioned before, are not the true order) seem to wield dead Shardblades, at least that's the impression I got in the Lift interlude.

Alolin / Szeth though ... with Szeth wielding Nightblood? Pretty frightening prospect. On the other hand, after the four-on-one Adolin has hands-on experience with starting as the underdog.

Yeah, I really hope one of these plays out.

11 minutes ago, Doctor12 said:

Post mortem wha?

All right, I admit, I'm not into Star Wars beyond watching the movies.  Googling just showed me where I went wrong... was thinking of Ben Kenobi ... strike the post-mortem part ... and this nice young man will make such an attractive woman!

4 minutes ago, Doctor12 said:

@Erklitt Nale would still have to find grounds for an execution though,  and I'm sure luke and Leia have been pardoned for their 'crimes'  I'm the rebellion under the new Republic. Now what other Skywalker have we seen that has committed an unforgivable crime?  

Yes,  it can only be Ben Skywalker. That would certainly be a neat end to the new trilogy wouldn't it?  

Plus guys,  SHARDBLADE VS LIGHTSABER .... 

So, Ben underwent post-mortem sex-change surgery, then came to life again in order to be finally slaughtered by Nale after his Skybreaker identity has been proven? Does that about sum up your post?  (Now I have it: that's why he could fly, he never was a true Jedi!)

@BeskarKomrk, @Yata: Leia obviously, you gender-blind morons!

@Havoc On the whole, most of this is pretty viable I think (though not quite new).

One part is made pretty unlikely by the Lift story that was sent in the Newsletter.

However, that doesn't make the rest of your theory unlikely.

Shouldn't there be two of the things with a thicker head?  (The one in a middle should look like the one on the right - presuming I'm guessing right, which I'm far from sure...)

15 hours ago, Brgst13 said:

Interesting theory, but it has a few holes.  For one, Syl talks about the evil spren she sees in the highstorms, which suggests that voidish forms come from different spren.  It might stand to reason that there are similarities in the powers, given that they are from the same planet, in fact the void binding diagram has the same surges with half-rotated glyphs.

Also, there's the quote from the Nightform about "It should be possible to blend their surges to ours in the end."  If this were possible, then it would be virtually impossible if the same spren, when bonded, changed the form.

As for your first point: There are a lot more forms than orders. So of course there would be kinds of spren that never bond a human but provide a Listener form. Some of those are voidish spren, who of course would never make a surgebinder.  Stormspren are one, and despite my last suggestion I rather believe that the spren providing Decayform are also Voidspren. So I see no contradiction here.

Your second argument is more convincing. But in my opinion not completely compelling. The process of providing a form could be so different from bonding a surgebinder that it might be up to the spren which one it performs. It's an interesting question anyway: once a Listener turns Surgebinder: will they retain their current form? Can a Warform be an Edgedancer or a Mateform a Skybreaker? Can a Dullform be any KR? Maybe form and order are even related by the very fact which spren can provide either (like, if my associations are correct, maybe only Artform could become a Lightweaver, because their one spren does both...)

Anyway, I'm aware there might be nothing to this. In case you haven't followed that other thread: the idea was born of the question why Brandon thought it so important not to show us what Glys looks like. The dominant ideas were related to Ym's spren and Wyndle, and the theories making most sense seemed to point to Glys really being a voidspren. An idea which many, including me, didn't like, so we searched for alternatives. It's no more than a 'Maybe... what if' thought - but one I'd like to follow a step further.

25 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

The reason I chose Amaram is because Sadeas is so much more upfront about his actions. As @Erklitt said, Sadeas would have killed Kaladin without a second thought, but everyone in the army knows that about him. Amaram is worshipped by his men. 

Think about what it actually took for him to cover up how he got his Shards. Dalinar says there were witnesses who saw him kill the Shardbearer months after Kaladin was made a slave. That means he gave the Shards to someone else simply so he could kill them and look good. No one realizes this, even Kaladin and Dalinar who know the truth. Kaladin's men could not have been the only people he killed to cover it up. People talk about this one incident defining him, but there could be hundreds of other incidents like it, and he is so good at covering them up that no one knows. 

That's an interesting conclusion. I just checked back on the text:

Quote

"... Seventeen witnesses told me that Amaram won his Shardblade only four months ago, long after your ledger says you were made a slave. ... " (WoR Ch. 58 'Never Again' p. 677 kindle edition - it continues, but adds nothing relevant)

As I understand this, the witnesses just 'witnessed' to the time when Amaram began to show his blade openly, which makes me believe he had just hidden it before. You might be right of course, but I think it unlikely, for the very reason you state: if those witnesses had told Dalinar they saw how Amaram won his blade, Dalinar would have realized this.

31 minutes ago, one winged jhereg said:

Due to some things i've just noticed in Sanderson's works, I have come to the conclusion that Adolin will ultimately be the Big damnation Hero of SA, in a very bitter sweet sorta way.  Disheveled hair, check.  Important character but not considers a main character, check.  Part of a quasi love triangle, check.  It all points to Adolin being the Hero of Ages, or at least the Roshar equivalent.  Consider the microphone dropped 

Thanks for lifting the mood!

I would say that depends on your definition of 'worse cremling'.

If it's a question of 'Who is the more depraved character?' I'd vote Sadeas anytime. Although I don't entirely believe Amaram's explanation that he took the Shards only for the greater good, I think there's at least a little truth in it. And I agree with @Jondesu: he is working for a goal he believes in, which makes him in a way selfless. Sadeas just watches out for the fulfillment of his own desires and literally doesn't care how many corpses he leaves by the roadside. And if he had been in Amaram's place, he would certainly have killed Kaladin on the spot instead of making him a slave.  Cynincal as that sounds, that did show a touch of mercy.

In terms of who's more dangerous (leaving aside the fact that Sadeas has lately ceased to be a danger at all) I tend towards Amaram. A fanatic who works toward some 'higher goal' and who thinks a worthy end justifies any means (as Amaram clearly does) can do much more damage I think then a selfish pig. He may not have done much harm so far on a global scale, as, like @Argelsays, the desolation would have come anyway. But he may do a lot in the future. He thinks on a global scale and might set things in motion that Sadeas with his small ambition of finding excitement and satisfaction in winning battles wouldn't dream of.

3 hours ago, maxal said:

If you could tell me where it is I wrote something which may have offended you, than I'd be able to ponder on it and see if I should have phrased it differently 

Pathfinder helped me clear my thoughts. I wondered what it was that had made me think this had gotten in some way 'awry' - when you asked the question I couldn't answer. I can now: My impression (and I'm aware this is subjective) is that whatever is said on the topic, you ignore it and just repeat your same statements. This is what it looks like to me: You say A, someone else says B, you repeat A, I say C, you repeat A, next person combines a stronger argument from B + C + new thought D, you repeat A... like B, C and D were never said.

I guess I projected a stubbornness and unwillingness for true discussion into this that maybe isn't there. One thing you said seems rather telling and may show we just have very different expectations:

3 hours ago, maxal said:

A discussion isn't a fight, it merely is a few people exposing their ideas and they don't always agree. People aren't going to change their mind within the scope of one thread, this very very rarely happens and it usually happens with posters who's mind was not firmly set yet.

Actually, that happens to me all the time. Maybe in your view, I am a poster who's mind isn't firmly set. But to me, that's the reason for discussing at all. I don't know the books by heart, and I often stand corrected by quotes. I don't know all WoBs, and often an opinion I held is made void by someone else quoting a WoB. I read other people's theories and at first think they are likely, or not, but during the discussion I change my mind because of some good arguments from other sharders. And I develop my own theories: some I think pretty likely, some are just crazy 'What ifs' and I put them up to discussion. Sometimes I stay with them, sometimes I don't. In fact, for me, that is the main reason for reading and posting on the shard. I think that's why I find your repetition of the same statements and arguments so frustrating. But if I understand you correctly, for you sharing in a thread is mainly 'exposing your ideas' and comparing it to others, and so repetition is natural. As I said: guess we just have very different expectations.

So, most importantly: You haven't offended me, and I'm sorry if I read a negative attitude into your way of posting that isn't there.

In a recent discussion about Glys there was the idea that maybe the very same kind of spren that bond humans might be behind some of the Parshendi forms.

I thought some more about this and have a few other suggestions. I wasn't looking too much at the heralds' attributes (after all, the heralds only 'adopted' patronage of the orders after their founding) but rather at other things we know about the orders.

Here are the correspondences I think might fit. (All quotes from the chapter epigraphs in WoR)

Edgedancers - Mateform (compare Edgedancers' oath)

Quote

"To find this form, one must care. True empathy one must employ." Ch. 14

Truthwatchers - Nightform (compare Renarin)

Quote

"Nightform predicting what will be... A new storm will come..." Ch. 23

Lightweavers - Artform (most obvious if there is anything to this at all)

Quote

"Artform applied for beauty and hue." Ch. 20 

Bondsmiths - Mediationform (compare Bondsmiths' oath and Dalinar's goals)

Quote

"Mediationform made for peace ... form of teaching" Ch. 21

Much less of a fit, but still maybe worth half a thought:

Windrunners - Warform (they can jump pretty far)
Dustbringers - Decayform (I really think Decayform is a Voidform, but still: both might be able to turn stone to dust)

3 hours ago, kenod said:

The names using a 'H' aren't blasphemous, they use the 'H' as a way to make it symmetrical, thus a good name, but it isn't truly symmetrical, so it isn't blasphemous. Shallan talked about it with Pattern (can't remember the chapter).

It's in Ch. 47 'Feminine Wiles' p. 548 kindle edition:

Quote

"Bajerden? Nohadon? Must people have so many names?"
"One is honorific," Shallan said. His original name wasn't considered symmetrical enough. Well, I guess it wasn't really symmetrical at all, so the ardents gave him a new one centuries ago."
"But ... the new one isn't symmetrical either."
"The 'h' sound can be for any letter," Shallan said absently. "We write it as the symmetrical letter, to make the word balance, but add a diacritical mark to indicate it sounds like an h so the word is easier to say."
"That - One can't just pretend that a word is symmetrical when it isn't!"
Shallan ignored his sputtering [...]

The way I understand this passage, words with the 'h' are considered symmetrical and as such only appropriate for 'holy persons' like Nohadon; Shallan's name is ideal for a normal person in being 'almost-but-not-quite symmetrical' by virtue of being one letter of without using the 'h' device (as Kabsal explained to her: Sh <> N).

I find this list quite interesting, @adamlewis. For those characters we know personally, the blasphemous naming seems to go along with some measure of arrogance in the person. Not just coincidence, maybe: it stands to reason that the same parents who choose such names might raise their children to feel themselves superior. Not that this should make us prejudiced however...

4 hours ago, maxal said:

I was no aware this discussion has been anything else than friendly. I apologize if it somehow became something else, it was not my intention  

Well, then I clearly misunderstood something. Quite possible. And I apologize.
Just one clarification:

4 hours ago, maxal said:

[...] right after stating you will not bother with my own.

I said I'd read your answer, that's the opposite of 'not bothering'. The intention was, a stated, to let you have the last word. I'm sorry if that way of handling it felt disrespectful to you. Sounds like we're just prone to talk at cross-purposes. No hard feelings here either.

On ‎06‎.‎08‎.‎2016 at 3:19 PM, maxal said:

You can't have people doing their own justice within the streets, to allow it is to allow chaos.

We will probably never see eye to eye on that Jasnah topic, and what makes it more difficult: I think we both feel strongly here, which makes it hard to be diplomatic. I'll make one more statement, and of course you are free to answer, and I'll read your answer, but not reply anymore, because I think it will lead nowhere. So as far as I'm concerned, you get the last word. I prefer discussing less sensitive topics with you in the future... however: one more statement.

That sentence of yours I quoted is the heart of the matter: it's a belief in justice and enforcement being the sole privilege of the state. That's great as long as you have a working constitutional state. But what if you haven't? What if this state fails in protecting it's citizens? A few hitches are one thing, a state failing in this primary duty big time and repeatedly is another. There comes a time when "doing their own justice within the streets" becomes the only option. Take the law into your own hands or watch countless innocents die. Distasteful or not, I am convinced Jasnah saved a lot of lifes. How many more would have been killed if she hadn't acted? It's easy to condemn her, and afterwards give your condolences to the future victims of those thugs. But in my personal opinion, to be honest, that's a little schizophrenic.

Just to emphasize one thing again: Jasnah didn't lay out a trap to murder them in their beds. Yes, she set a trap, but one that would only spring if the thugs, as expected, went out to murder her. It would have been easy for them to escape: just refrain from the murder attempt. To argue that Jasnah's trap was immoral implies that the thugs had established some kind of customary right to murder in this place if anyone displayed their wealth too prominently. Yes, Jasnah counted on them trying to murder her, but she did not make them do it. They produced the self-defense situation, not Jasnah. She foresaw it, but didn't produce it, That was the thugs' own decision entirely. Bad luck for them that for once, their 'victim' was stronger.