IntentAwesome

I agree with Starla about the parallels between Moash and Kaladin being less about advantages Kaladin may or may not have had, and more about the fundamental differences between the two characters. Yes, Kaladin had help from Syl. But as Starla pointed out, Kaladin was the kind of person who could attract Syl. Also, Moash had plenty of support: from Kaladin and Bridge Four. But he rejected them; he decided vengeance was more important to him than his friends. I'm having a hard time imagining anything Kaladin would value above Bridge Four. But, guess we'll see what that Fourth Ideal brings! It looks to me like Kaladin and Moash are very much being set up as the championship battle. Moash is a likely candidate for Odium's champion, having already killed a king and a god. The biggest argument I see going against this is that Moash just doesn't really compare to Odium's first pick as champion. Even as a natural fighter, he's a far cry from the Blackthorn. Is there somebody we haven't been introduced to yet that could compare to Dalinar? I've thought for a long time that Kaladin would end up being Honor's champion. To me, he is the character most closely aligned with Honor. And we know from Mistborn that that matters. It's no coincidence that Kaladin attracted the only Honorspren who was willing to break the rules and bond with someone. And we learned, in OB, just how much Dalinar has been drenched in Odium, despite currently holding what's left of Honor. And Kaladin does seem to be the best fighter, now that Dalinar is getting older. What I'm deathly afraid of, though, with that duel likely coming at the end of book 5, is that Kaladin—after having failed so many times and constantly worrying about failing—actually fails in that duel, leading to whatever happens in the back 5. It would be so poetically tragic. Oh, as additional support for the death rattle being about the scene with Moash, Kaladin, and Elhokar in WoR: for the scene where Dalinar tells Kaladin about what happened between Elhokar and Roshone, the chapter title is called "The One Who Kills Promises." That's pretty definitive, imo, that Elhokar is the one who killed promises, and the death rattle refers to that scene in WoR. What will be interesting is if that flips, and Moash becomes the one who kills promises.

This. I understand that Kaladin needed to step back, but not only did he take a step back, he really just became a supporting character, which was disappointing as has always been such a strong character and able to carry off some really incredible plot lines. I feel his role can be summed up as chauffeur extradorinaire and brooding male hunk. And where WoK and WoR really shined for me was character development, conflict between characters, and character relationships. In Way of Kings, all three mains get strong storylines with growth and development. Shallan goes from wide-eyed and intimidated by Jasnah to being able to question her mentor and somewhat hold her own. Dalinar goes from questioning his sanity and his place in the world to being confident in his values and decisions. Kaladin goes from broken slave to capable leader. And you get so many interesting character conflicts that build relationships. Adolin and Dalinar, Shallan questioning Jasnah’s actions, Kaladin working so hard to build a relationship with Bridge Four. These all bring so many powerful and poignant moments. I feel like many opportunities for similar moments were skipped in OB, because they are all so focused on the Big Bad. We don’t get the conflict with Shallan and Kaladin over her brother. Dalinar’s reaction to adolin’s murder is barely a blip on the radar. We don’t see Kaladin’s reaction to Amaram as highprince or to Lopen’s two arms. Or to Szeth as Dalinar’s body guard: excuse me, didn’t I stop you from killing him a few weeks back? Kaladin doesn’t have any interaction with Teft over his addiction or with Rlain about what he is feeling (which would have been a meaningful way to explore Kaladin’s main struggle in OB). Or Dalinar to Szeth? You killed my brother a few years back, but it’s cool. And despite all the focus on the triangle, there just wasn’t enough relationship building for either Shalladin or Shadolin, so I’m just not sold on either of those. The scene with Kaladin’s parents was beautiful, but then it was just dropped: glad you are alive, don’t die in the voidbringer invasion, bye! I would have loved to have seen Kaladin and Lirin coming to a new understanding about each other, especially since that was such a huge focus of WoK for Kaladin. Fingers crossed that I’ll still get to see this. Anyway, I could go on and on with this list. I just wish, in 1200 pages, we had taken some time to stop and smell the roses instead of rushing through. Ok, attempting to get off my soapbox. I gave a 7/10. It’s a great book (yes, there were plenty of things that I liked, promise!) but it just doesn’t have the emotional payoff that WoK and WoR did for me.

The parallels are important in highlighting not only the fundamental differences between Kaladin about Moash, but another way to explore a major theme in this book: the importance of choice and taking responsibility for your actions, and taking the next step when you've made a mistake. Odium's whole shtick is about not having to accept the consequences of your bad choices, namely pain. "Give the pain to me, let me deal with that," Odium says, as he drags you to the void. That's how he tempts Dalinar, but in the end, Dalinar owns his mistakes and the pain that resulted from them. Sometimes Kaladin tries to blame his circumstances (he blames lighteyes for what's happened to him) but in the end, he usually accepts that the choice is his to be a better person or do the right thing, regardless of what his circumstances are. Like Lirin says, somebody has got to start. Moash, on the other hand, continues to blame his poor choices on his circumstances. He recognizes that he has done something wrong—killing Elhokar didn't make him feel any better—but makes no attempt to correct his behavior. Instead, he just keeps sinking. Although given a very similar set of circumstances, Moash and Kaladin become two very different people. Moash is what Kaladin could have become if he'd made different choices. And Kaladin is what Moash could have been if he'd made different choices.

I was starting to wonder if I had actually just made all this up in my head, so I did a search on my Kindle. Jasnah does call Kaladin bridgeman while she is arguing with him, so that was intentionally derogative, I would say. Navani and Dalinar also refer to Kaladin as bridgeman. Interestingly, I found that Shallan calls him bridgeman more often than anyone else, and that is probably where I was getting the dismissive attitude from. It's like she was trying to compensate for Veil's attraction to Kaladin by being rude/dismissive of him. After Shallan, Adolin calls him bridgeman most frequently. Sometimes it seemed like a term of affection, sometimes (especially when is talking to Shallan) it did not. So, based on that, I now think it was intentional to increase the tension of the love triangle, but maybe not necessarily with the rest of the Kholins.

Kaladin, scariest of monsters:

I think that's definitely true of Adolin, maybe even Elhokar and Dalinar. But Navani, Jasnah, Shallan? It came across as very dismissive to me. I didn't really notice the impressions from the non-radiants, other than Bridge Four. Guess I'll have to re-read. What a shame!

Has anyone ever asked Brandon if there is a spren that represents Roshar itself? Spren are essentially ideas given a sentient form. The stormfather is such a large, powerful spren in part because people often think of him. (And he's merged with the remnants of Honor, but ignoring that.) Surely there's got to be a spren that is the representation of people's idea of the world. And we know that the Singers originally worshipped spren, stone, and wind. We know the Shin still worship stone, and I think that is going to come into play at some point. I think that something along the lines of a Roshar/stone spren is a good candidate for the third sibling.

I love that not only has Wandersail applied really well to some individual story arcs—not only Szeth, but I would say Kaladin and Moash as well, especially Moash in OB—but that it applies on a larger scale. Really, Wandersail is a representation of how Odium's gets to people. He tells them to hand over responsibility for their mistakes and their acts of cruelty. They don't have to feel guilty or feel pain, because they can let Odium be responsible. And that's how he lures them into even worse cruelty. I think we will probably see some more applications of The Girl Who Looked Up as well. I'm not sure I agree with this. I was surprised at how frequently all of the other main characters still referred to Kaladin as just the "bridgemen," not Kaladin or Kal, or even Captain or Windrunner, but bridgemen. I wondered if Brandon was intentionally making it clear that despite everything Kaladin has done, he's still an outsider to the whole Kholin-radiant group. Though I did appreciate the perspectives of Kaladin from Bridge Four. I thought it was amusing that they don't hero worship Kal quite as much as Kaladin thinks they do, but that they do still respect him a great deal.

I also think that Kaladin’s need to help others redirects his energy and allows him to focus on other things. Even as a slave, his motivation wasn’t vengeance on his masters, but helping others find freedom. The well-being of others was more important to him than personal vengeance . Even when Kaladin nearly joined the assassination plot, the argument that swayed him was that it would be better for others, Alethkar, if the king were dead. Not one of retribution, not even against the hated light eyes. Whereas Moash never seems to focus on anything but his own pain and his need to get back at people. That’s why he was unable to lead the Singer group. He doesn’t actually care about helping them.

So this is an interesting one, because by admitting that he couldn’t swear the Fourth Ideal to save Adolin and protect Dalinar, he would be de facto living the Fourth Ideal. For that reason, I’m not sure this is it.

I agree with @Starla. On my first read-through, I found Kaladin's storyline incredibly disappointing. On the second read-through, I appreciated his story a little more, as it became clear that Kaladin's arc was mostly a lot of set up for the next book. Which will be awesome, but is another three years away. I should mention that Kaladin is my favorite character, so I'm guilty of that, and I wanted more of him. In part one, the only thing Kaladin really contributes is a new perspective on the "evil" Voidbringers. But I think we see enough of the Singers in other parts of the book that we would have been able to conclude that these aren't one-sided villains. We see some glimpses of Kaladin in part two, but he doesn't really do anything, other than the argument with Jasnah over how to handle the Singers moving forward. I do think this will be very important aspect in the next book. In my estimation, Kaladin is correct. The only way to end the unlimited supply of Fused is for the Singers to refuse to host them. That means the humans and the Singers will have to work together at some point. So, again, set up for the next book. And I do hope that Kaladin becomes a driving force in that arc. In parts three and four, the only real reason Kaladin seems to be with Elhokar and co. is to facilitate the love triangle. Kaladin needs to be around Adolin and Shallan to brood beautifully. Sometimes I really thought Kaladin's character was reduced to being the attractive, distracting male for the main female protagonist. His whole plot with the Wall Guard showed a little bit of Kaladin's gift as a leader, but I honestly thought it was a role Adolin could easily have done, as he is also a good leader and would have been able to fit in easily with a group of wall guards. The important moment for Kaladin is, of course, the battle in the palace where he freezes. But I agree that this is unresolved and seems to mostly just be set up. I've come to expect Kaladin as a gifted, if arrogant, leader; an excellent and creative problem-solver; resourceful; and someone who is fairly observant and good at reading other individuals (at least his men, if not women), which we saw a lot of with Bridge Four in the first book. I don't really think we saw any of those personality traits in this book. His two attempts at leading other groups led to disaster (even though he was able to become their leader fairly quickly). We hardly saw him at all with Bridge Four. In fact, sometimes I had the impression that Kaladin was losing Bridge Four, just because there was a general lack of meaningful interaction with them. He doesn't really solve any problems in this book. And he was mostly presented as pretty obtuse about others, even Bridge Four. Granted, this could be because we are seeing some other perspectives of him, and Kaladin isn't as observant as he thinks he is, but still. In summary, I guess I don't think Kaladin drove much, if any, of the plot of Oathbringer, and I think much of what I have come to love about him as a character was missing. Though I do think there was some excellent set up for him in the next book, and I'm excited to see that.

Good find! Yes, Azure is definitely Vivenna!

Totally legit Oathbringer Post Credits Scene: Kaladin sat in his barrack room alone, studying a folio on military tactics. After finally obtaining married housing for Rock and his family, Kaladin had moved back into his old rooms. Out of the corner of his eyes, Kaladin noticed a twisting figure slip under his door and slide across the room. It finally halted, sitting on the border between Jah Keved and Alethkar, buzzing in his bizarre rhythms. “Umm…Pattern?” “Yes?” “Did you…need something?” “No. Shallan kicked me out. She said to come bother you.” “Why…?” Oh. Sighing, Kaladin returned to his folio. Or tried to. Pattern sitting on his folio was inconvenient for studying. And for other things, apparently. “Kaladin?” “Hmm” “What is—“ “No. Just no.” … … … “No can be just?” Kaladin groaned.

So far, the Windrunner oaths have seemed the most rigid of all of them to me. We've always known that some oaths are up to interpretation, though they cover the same basic idea. I don't think the Third Windrunner Oath is really individualized; it's still the same idea. It's just the who Teft hates is himself, while Kaladin hates others. From what we've been given so far, I think the Fourth Ideal will need to meet these three criteria: 1. It will need to be an understanding that will help Kaladin resolve the dilemma he faced in the fight in the palace. 2. It will be something so difficult for Kaladin to live by that he couldn't even do it to save Syl, Pattern, Shallan, Adolin, and Dalinar. That's a lot of important people. And we know that Kaladin has a "saving people thing" as Hermione Granger once put it. 3. As the chapter epigraph for 86 implies, it is something that actually goes against a Windrunner's natural desire to help and protect others. I think Kaladin actually did a fair job already in Oathbringer accepting his weaknesses; in the battle against Amaram, he acknowledge his need to be saved, so I don't think that was difficult enough. Same with protecting just the ones he can; Kaladin expressed the same idea to Elhokar when Kal told him to save just his son and leave the queen. And Kaladin does already get back up every time he fails, though he can't stop beating himself up over it. So I don't think any of those are difficult enough for Kaladin to not be able to swear it. It would be interesting, I think, to see Kaladin reject the next oath and instead find something else, maybe finding a way for humans and parshendi to work together. But I also want to see Kaladin get his plate.

Right! How could I mix those up? *facepalm*

Sorry, I wasn’t very clear. I meant that Ash and Taln are going to help the knights Radiant. But I would say that Nale also has had a shift from insane to slightly less insane, even though he has chosen the Listeners.

I agree. I don’t really think this will happen, though I can potentially see it being something they use to buy themselves time, maybe in the gap between books 5 and 6. But if it did happen, poor Kal! im not really sure, at this point, what the difference between being the leader of the windrunners is and being a herald. Unless what Dalinar has become is enough to “fuel” the heralds directly, I’m not sure the heralds will ever be what they were.

If that’s the case, then I really hope Jasnah’s whole let’s just convince the heralds to go back to torture idea doesn’t pan out.

We still don’t know what exactly caused their madness. The Stormfather mentioned that the Heralds all shared a bond—and the pain—when they were tortured. And Brandon has mentioned multiple times that the Oathoact wasn’t fully broken. I wonder if part of their madness comes from still sharing a bond with Taln even though they weren’t directly tortured. It seems that Nale, Ash, and now Taln have snapped out of it a little. Could this be because Taln isn’t actively being tortured anymore? I don’t think that is all of their madness, else why haven’t they all recovered? But I think it was a piece of it And yes, I do think they are going to help the Knights Radiant, but I’m not sure they’ll be able to return to their position as Heralds.

Interesting thoughts on the mistspren. I had not associated them with Truthwatcher spren. I had wondered if they were actually not fully formed Honorspren, by the more simplistic way they often behaved. But that could be from not speaking Alethi. What do you think their association with the Honorspren is?

I’m apologizing in advance for this very long and very disorganized post. So…sorry! So, I really, really wanted the answer to this one and now I will spend the next three years trying to figure it out. So here we go. Much of Kaladin’s POVs in part 4, I feel, were teasing us about this ideal. I’ve compiled what I think is relevant information regarding the fourth ideal. Kaladin’s struggle throughout the whole book has been choosing a side when he feels like he should be protecting everyone, which reached its head when he froze in battle, unable to choose a side. His Flashbacks Speaking with Tukks about realizing that he could kill: His conversation with Tarah about needing to live for the living, not the dead: Holding Nalma’s hand as the slaves die around him: Summoning Windspren At the beginning, helping others get to shelter during the storm and defying the stormfather: On Honor’s Path, when he is thinking specifically about the oaths and what the fourth one will be: He also summons a single windspren when they approach the Thaylenah gate, as he is thinking about how he must get to the oath gate and save Dalinar: And interestingly, what Kaladin is thinking about as he tries to swear the oath is all the people he lost. So what does that mean? What do the dead have to do with swearing an ideal? Windrunner Gemstone And don’t forget the wind runner’s gemstone, who says he isn’t sure he can’t swear the fourth ideal. He asks something along the lines of shouldn’t I want to help people? Guesses I’ve been trying to think what makes sense with all this information, but would also be so difficult that Kaladin couldn’t do it. I originally thought it could be something about forgetting the past and living for the living, as Tarah suggests, but I couldn’t think of any useful oaths that would involve this. It could be, like the sky breaker third ideal, that he just has to choose a side and it’s up to him what he chooses. And Kaladin was unable to choose humans. While this really speaks to the struggle that Kaladin was having, it doesn’t really make sense that he would be thinking about all the people he lost, as this doesn’t really affect them or how Kaladin thinks of them. It could be something along the lines of “I will protect myself first so I can live to continue the fight.” This is something I feel Kaladin would really struggle with and does make sense as an oath. But it doesn’t really fit with his struggle, and it doesn’t really fit with thinking of the people he has lost. It does make sense with the Windrunner Gemstone. The one that I currently think is most likely. There’s a lot of conversations about leadership in this book and that’s been a popular theory before. All of the people he lost were people who died at the hands of an unjust leadership system. I think the oath may be something along the lines of not risking himself for individuals, but to think of the bigger picture. Doing the most good for the greatest amount of people, which may require sacrificing some individuals. Kaladin does tend to protect the small group of people he cares for rather than thinking on a bigger scale. I’m not sure how this really resolves the human/parshmen dilemma. And Kaladin seemed to be taking the whole lighteyes thing pretty well. But this does make sense as far as the Windrunner Gemstone goes.

Oathbringer trust issues:

My book is going to be more well-traveled than I am by the time it gets here. I wish you better luck!! Keep Amazon on their toes!

I just checked the shipping status of my book. It shipped on Saturday from Phoenix ( I live in Utah, Phoenix is really close, yay!), but it now has arrived in Kentucky (not so close, in fact much farther away). WHAT?!?!?! WHY!?!

Haha. Yes. The stormfather is Kaladin’s disapproving father-in-law, since they are ‘bonded’. Is it possible that Kaladin is actually using adhesion to solidify air. I’ve always wondered if he would be able to do that. I’m not a science person, so I don’t really understand all the mechanics of pressure and vacuum. But I’ve been waiting to see Kaladin create a shield/barrier out of adhered air.