kais

Overall This read more like the back end of a short and if I look at it that way, it has good potential. I still want to see that party scene so I can get more information on the world, characters, and sibling interactions though! Your Questions How does that backstory work as a reason for the divide between Ulsa and Enzi? I did not feel there was sufficient backstory and I still don't know why they are divided. Cutting the ceremony out is part of the problem, I think. Is the middle of the story an okay place to reveal this? I'd prefer upfront, because otherwise I lack emotional buy-in How confusing was the way it alternated between past and present? I assume you're referring to the flashback? If you fix the tense issues I don't think it would be an issue. After page 8, I think E reacts more than they act, the story gets two internal in the one section that should be more action driven, and I am certain at least one of the two reveals in the end was poorly set up, though the set up will change anyway when I rewrite the first part. If you do read this part, am I right about the problems it has? I didn't mind the action scenes. The reveal needs some work but most of my quibbles could be resolved by more buy-in work up front. I detail more below. Which scenes might be worth keeping in some form? I vote: * intro: we go right to coronation, see some conflicted emotion on sis' face, E is paranoid about security, we get some dialogue about 9 * mid: ceremony ends fine, then bubble comes down. OH NOES! Attack! * mid2: FIGHT * end: sibling reunion and plot twist that makes sense due to inclusion of intro As I go - pg 1: you've got tense changes throughout here - pg 1: if the nine don't show up, as you noted, then telling us about the protections doesn't serve much purpose here. I'd suggest moving it to later. By leading with the party line, I want a party! - wait, a door closed and cut someone's arm off? From the first few sentences it sounded like we were about to camera zoom to a party. There's a disconnect between the first few lines and the rest of page one, I think. - E is pretty calm about this lost arm thing - J lost an arm, yet J isn't screaming? E is calm? MOAR EMOTION pls and thank you - Okay wait so now the nine are here, but the opening lines said they didn't come? Are the opening lines meant to tell us that the party already happened and the nine didn't come? I don't know if I care for that. The hook was the party, and we got more of a bait and switch, which leaves me grumpy. - pg 3: not getting any tension from the nine as I don't know anything about them. E's panic doesn't hit home and I'm mostly still concerned about J losing an arm and no one seeming to really care about it. J is bleeding out! Where's the tourniquet? Medics? - pg 3: this plan is nebulous and since I know nothing about it nor am I invested in the stakes (which I think are SAVE EVERYONE?), I'm having a hard time caring. At this stage, I need: * backstory on the nine * to know if J is okay * what the plan in * why I care about the party people - pg 4: the code phrases don't really need explanation. I think it's clear from the text what they are - I don't know enough about R to care about him yet - pg 5: goddess statue is cool! - pg 6: this tense hopping thing needs to be cleaned up before and in the flashback. After a few paragraphs I didn't know if I was back in the main story and they were being attacked too, or if I was still in the flashback - pg 7: the nine are in the bubble thing, but the beginning said they hadn't shown up? Confusion - pg 10: at this stage I want to know the story of the castle and the people. Without it, the liberation army here doesn't resonate. Who am I supposed to be cheering for? Who are the nine? Why do they hold the castle? What do giant robots have to do with anything? - pg 12: why would E's sister hate them? The going through bedrooms part is nice and I appreciate the worldbuilding, but I don't know enough about the sibling dynamic here. - lilac isn't a proper noun - the goddess curses still sound clunky. Maybe do the full version the first time and then shorten it? People always shorten things. Maybe first time it's DURN GODDESS BLESS THIS RUBBISH TRASH HEAP (the site won't let me use the words I want) and then the short form is 'ess forsaken' or something shorter - E is fighting Eld but I don't know who he is or why I care about her yet, making it hard to get into this fight scene - pg 15: this info about Eld should probably come sooner - pg 16: 'puppet ruler' has no context because I don't know anything about the world - pg 17: this 'don't want to be ruler' twist would be so good if we got to see the ceremony and some sibling interaction first! - pg 17: the parents disapproving line--probably should clarify that's not gender related since I think the anthology doesn't want that sort of stuff? Or possibly I made that rule up in my head. Feel free to ignore - pg 19: the reveal of sis not wanting to be ruler is dragging too long now. It would make a great end to the story, but not with the extension it has OR with more plot to talk about beforehand. In general though I personally don't care for these 'let's discuss everything to death' endcaps. I'd prefer the story speak for itself, but since this is a discovery draft I totally get how writing it out here is helpful for reformatting the front end.

Overall I'm thrilled to learn more about P culture! I'd like a few more grey areas in terms of the war, but I'm super on board for the sex dynamics it looks like we're about to get. Great start to a short! Your questions -Is it enjoyable? Barring some quibbles, yes! -Is the magic system and worldbuilding clear? Yes but I'm very familiar with them, too. -Are the characters engaging? I really like this Ori. He never really clicked for me before but I like him young and a bit unsure. I'd read a whole book with him like this. -Does the story make sense? O's motivations for going into the war are a little shaky, as are his actions in the battle. Otherwise yes, it makes sense. -Anything else you think of (even down to grammar and line edits, if you want. I'm not picky.) See below. As I go - pg 3: this has some deep political metaphor. Here for it. - pg 3: I think the paragraph that explains the difference between the warrior and other Ps could use a bit more fleshing out. That's what I want in terms of information, right there, to hook me, and it seems almost glossed over. Could they have a bit of dialogue about it maybe? Offer some examples? This is the place where I want to sink in, but instead I get a bit bounced back and started thinking about Klingons. - pg 5: In Ori's musings about how no one understands how hard it is to have two houses, it would be interesting to see a tie in to the Society, or a bit more backstory here. I think this is a natural place for just a smidge more on the world - O desperately forced his crest down so he wouldn’t look like a juvenile, caught outside the hatchery after curfew <-- LOL I love this. Young O is such fun! - pg 7: It occurred to me here, quite suddenly, that this P war is much like how the religion changed on Rapa Nui Island, from an ancestor worshipping religion to the Bird Man Cult. There's a lot of nuance to how that happened and it would be cool to see, not the same, but some additional information about why the warring class is upset. I think this is always what I've wanted from the P story line--the reason for the overthrow and for it to not be 100% black and white. It sure wasn't for the Rapa Nui people. - pg 11: LOL and the hive destruction is just like the toppling of the Moai! - pg 12: I'm confused by the battle. O goes there to help them but doesn't actively intervene for the 'good guys.' But then he sort of does? But then he leaves? I think we might need a more cut and dried exit from the battle if he really isn't going to get involved, or a directed involvement that's short and then he leaves. - 18: ooh, male pixie! Sex dynamics!

Second attempt. So this… thing I have here is just over 12K, which is the word limit (submitting in 5K chunks, of course). Hence I’m all ears for any crit, but if you want me to add something I’m going to challenge you to also suggest where/what I could cut to get it in. The first page, in particular, I think could be cut down. My goals for this piece included the following: a) trope-filled b.) fluffy and fun LBLs or generalized comments welcome. I’m especially interested on thoughts on the neopronouns and if you would prefer a different set, or even they/them/theirs. I’m not married to the ones I used, and this is going in an anthology where pronouns are expected to be different, but I haven’t settled on which set works best yet. Thanks! (and warning for @Robinski - there's a market scene. Please forgive me!)

We love that you love it! Newbies tend to get scared off when we're not 100% IT'S THE BEST THING EVER. We just want to help and have an awesome community of people who love writing. We're so glad you're here! Can confirm excellence.

In for Monday as well. @Mandamon when do we get to start seeing the new SEEDS book????

This isn't an uncommon problem, and I think because of your more active narrator, it will be easier to solve in this sort of narrative. Generally the consensus is that you can have bigoted characters, but the narrative voice must clearly counter the bigotry. So, your characters can be bigoted, but the story can not. The narrative voice or in your case, the narrator, must make it very clear that bigotry is not okay. It's a balancing act between narrator and characters. A short read you could do for research is the early sci fi Kindred, by Octavia Butler. Almost every character in the book is horrible to some degree, but the narrative voice is clear that the bigotry is bad. Less relevant for your particular story, since I don't think you've mentioned skin tones at all, is making sure if you're presenting a balanced set of characters. This is an easy way to start changing narrative voice by showing wide support for diversity. It doesn't mean you have to change your lead POV characters around necessarily, but it does mean that the supporting cast shouldn't just be white dudes. Specifically for your story, it may mean giving skin tones to everyone as a starting place. @Robinski recently had to revamp part of book due to this and might be able to talk about mechanics a bit more.

TBD so at the moment, she is just fine Ahh, and this is because I think I'm going to take this in a different direction since it's not going into the anthology. But yes, she does need more emotion in this section, too. Aheh, originally the letter was longer. Will edit You and @shatteredsmooth have both mentioned this. I'm actually not sure where I'm going (or where E is going) ATM. When it was a short, the end was going to be E agreeing to fly the ship off world after learning to work with the M. Now that it's going to be a novel I don't know if I want them leaving the planet in this book. Will need to think on this. Double check YESSS! 100% rebuttal to Herland and other such mono gender BS of the time (and unfortunately somewhat recently as well). Because, darn it people, that's now how this works. It was part of a Nova special my kid watches on repeat, so in theory it could happen on a tidally locked world. Not that I think the actual science of it matters for a space opera, but you know, still cool. Thanks much @Mandamon and @shatteredsmooth This is getting a big overhaul over these next few weeks to transition to novel pacing. I won't be submitting any more of it until after I get the short through the forum, so hopefully when I come back with it it will be smoother.

I 100% agree. If I ever finish the first draft of this thing, that is getting changed in round two. It's a placeholder right now. Solid idea. Will edit. You're correct. It's why N was originally a hologram. I think I need to go back to that because the rationale doesn't make sense at all Because my worldbuilding is problematic ATM. Wait, where is this? I can't find it in the document Unfortunately no, and it's been moved to chapter two, even later! I'm planning on reformatting this for a novel instead of a short. As such I'm going to do some deep editing in chapter one and two, which should give more about the planet upfront and push the gender part way back. I'm really interested in toying with this same sex planet thing while acknowledging gender outside the binary, but I think I want to pulp trope it for a while first. Set up expectations and then crush them. Well, that's what I want. We'll see if it actually happens I think so? There was a part about the primary colony just being in the habitable zone, which is neither light nor dark side (but sunrise strip). So in theory, beetles from either side could live there. Yes. I must have cut out the part where it addressed that directly. LOL. And we value such nitpicks. Will edit shoes I've scrapped the whole part there so indirectly this has been taken care of Thank you! Chapter two was this week's but I won't be subbing this through again for a while until after I get through the short. That'll give me time to get all these edits in!

@Silk I forgot to change the date on the heading of this thread. Could you update it for me? The forum won't let me edit once a reply has been made on a post. Thank you!

Looking forward to it! Overall I think one definitely needs the intro to understand the story. I've not read it, and to give you an idea of what I retained: * there are two women with similar names * there are a number of men, one of whom killed his son for no apparent reason * this appears to be a seaside town in a medieval fantasy setting... which now that I think on the beginning, has clarinets. Those didn't come about until the mid to late 1700s in Europe in their current incarnation and I don't know if they were necessarily traveling minstrel type things. * the world has a LOT of characters * one of the women sees ghosts What I don't know is the plot or through line, and I didn't see an inciting incident. There were a lot of scene changes that didn't seem to flow together and I couldn't parse much of the dialogue. I wonder, since this is book two (yes?) if you shouldn't introduce some key plot elements into this first chapter. Many books in series do do this, and it helps old readers remember, and new readers catch up. It might help with the comprehension level. This isn't bad by any means, but I think it needs tightening and a more obvious through line. Your questions: is she too immature or mature, too annoying, too much of a Shallan Clone? I can't get a feel for her at all. I don't have a feel for any of the characters, really. I don't have any buy in because I don't know what the stakes are and I didn't get any real emotion time with our lead character. Who is she? What are her motivations? Why does she do what she does? Why did she have that weird screaming match with the person whose name is basically the same? my weird games with the Narrator (did I overplay my hand?). I'm not a fan of this narrative style so take my comments here with a grain of salt. It wasn't so bad at first but really pulled away in the middle, when it looked like one of the characters was actually talking to the narrator. This can be pulled off in fiction (and certainly has) but it gives a certain flavor to the work, and that flavor isn't the same as what you had already cultivated. I'd suggest back it off, if not cutting it entirely. As I go (having not read the summary, as requested) - I love the imagery of the first sentence but I think it's a shade too long. Break into two maybe? - broken clarinet is GREAT - the narrator speaking directly to the reader is a bit odd but I'm willing to give it a go - pg 3: I just want to take a minute to say thank you for making sure the group wasn't just men - pg 4: who is she who is doing the stabbing? I love the line but don't know who it is referring to. With that noted as well, you've got quite the work to introduce seven characters at the start of book and get the reader to not forget them immediately. Here on page four I couldn't name any of them for you or their introductions, but I'm not turned off, either, so that's decent - pg 8: I don't understand the ghost scene. It comes perhaps too fast after the dream sequence, which introduced a lot of world and people, and then the ghost part confused me. He turned to stone? But he was a ghost? Was it ghost stone? What was the purpose of the sequence? I'm not sure what I was to pick up from it. - pg 8-9 the narrator sequence further confuses me. What is happening? I'm not sure where I am or why I care or if the palace is sentient or not - pg 9: is she talking to the narrator? - So is Eu not human? That's why you describe her as simian? - I'd suggest not naming two characters so closely. It can make it very hard to read and keep the characters apart, even if they have very similar voices - which one of them is the maid? - In the scene with the two E characters, I have no idea what happened, or why. One of them appears to have an inter dimensional space pocket though which is pretty neat - pg 12: science aside - if the fungi are big enough to be a curtain or covering, then they are in fact quite healthy, not sickly - pg 16: I can't track the dialogue here. They're jumping around from topic to topic and it doesn't make any sense. For instance, how does she get 'you must have kids' from someone saying someone is nuts? - pg 20: bird and sea are the first real feeling I've gotten not only for what time period we are in, but what the land looks like - pg 22: dude killed his son? Very harsh. - unsure of the note the ending line is on

Ah yes, how well I know the requirements for this anthology. Overall I'm going to be a little more specific here than normal. It's not because I hate the story but rather because I think the one you're not telling is the one with the best potential. If you're not into prescriptive thoughts, feel free to skip. While I'm intrigued by the world, I'm far more interested in the internal story that isn't being told than the one that is. There doesn't appear to be an inciting incident (I kept thinking one of the attacks would be, but then they were all summarily dealt with with no repercussions) and MC and the sister didn't distinguish themselves enough in voice until the end for me to get a feel for either of them. The world, too seemed too thin, even for a short, for me to get invested. The Nine are so nebulous as to be irrelevant at this time. The MC doesn't have any struggles. Their competency slider is too high to give the section tension, and I feel no danger from any of the attackers or the looming threat of the Nine. The action sequences felt too breezed over. I think, though, that's because you're skimming around another story: the one where we learn why MC turned down the heirship and how that affects their relationship with their sister. There's a missing opportunity here, I feel like, to explore the world by starting at the ceremony for the sister. Have MC remember their ceremony, explore the world a bit. Have the ceremony and then an attack as an inciting incident where the MC can think about or discuss the Nine. This would free up a lot of space in the narrative too for more action items (or character development) by cutting the dialogue and relative lack of action at the start. As I go - I don't understand the security being invisible line. - 'forsaken rock' the curses are really clumsy. Wondering if something shorter wouldn't be easier to read and potentially easier to say when enraged - the robots seemed really sudden. They probably need to be mentioned with the security line up front. It'd be a hook, too - that first paragraph on page two is a lot. I think it introduces too many people and too many occurrences for any of it to settle into my mind. - Chief Security Officer's worst nightmare... who is the chief security officer? Is it our MC? If so that should probably be noted earlier, too, so this line has more punch - pg 3: the 'who would want to kill me' line diffuses the tension and intrigue. - debating whether ... without any snark or shrieking <-- this sentence doesn't make sense to me - pg 5: so just to take stock at this point, this is what has stuck with me: nonbinary MC, sister, coming of age party for the MC (maybe? maybe the sister?). There's a mother and a brother? Maybe? Robot bodyguards and also human ones and there's a cake. Some nebulous threat exists that I do not yet understand or care about. I feel like I should have more buy in for the lead right now than I do. Is there a secondary through line for this piece that I've missed maybe? - I had to read the Hess section twice to figure out what happened. Not so much because the actions were unclear but because there wasn't enough emotional reaction or lead in, I felt like, to signal the scene. - pg 10: I really thought the mouse bot thing would be the inciting incident, but it gets dealt with really quickly. I'm disappointed - pg 10: the abdicating remembrance from the MC would be a decent chapter lead, followed by entering right here at the ceremony to the sister taking the vows. You could have some time with the nice imagery then of the ceremony, explain a bit more about the goddess and the social structures, then have the inciting incident be whatever is coming up now (I assume some type of attack) - pg 13: Recurring references to the nine do not add any tension because I don't know anything about them and don't feel any substantial threat to the characters at this time

Chapter two of the short that has grown into probably a novel. No longer constrained by anthology limits so anything is game. Flow and buy-in comments specifically welcome.

@shatteredsmooth clearly the house has lessons it can teach us. I see a MG series here, early 1990s style, with a hidden room and maybe a dollhouse that comes to life.

BAHAHAHA guilty as charged, sir.

Thank you everyone, for the excellent feedback. I think with this I've got chapter one pretty much sorted. I've taken care of the flyers, the clicking, etc. T has now been dead for only a month, and the ending is much snappier. E's interaction with the M is also more about E finding information. I won't resubmit this chapter because I'd like to move on but I'll include it in grey (ala @Robinski style) on top of the next sub so you can scan changes if you'd like. Thank you again!

This is a really good point, and one that I missed so apologies. But yes, also one of those 'things we need to reckon with in fantasy' I feel like for sure.

Also on for Monday. Keeps me on task for all this drafting. oof.

It was a thought monologue when she first sees them. It gets mitigated a bit later with her actions, but it was also, I thought, totally in character. You've got a noble with noble aspirations, but removed from the people. It's exactly the kind of internal monologue I would expect, and was consistent. So I suppose I should have said, wow, our MC has a deep implicit bias against peasants, but I like how she fights it with her actions.

Hey hey! Congrats on your first sub! I love seeing new writers on the boards. A quick note- I read assuming you are seeking publication. If this is not the case, and you write mostly for yourself or for fun, do let me know and I will change my critique structure. Second, if you're unfamiliar with critique groups, sometimes the comments can seem a little harsh. Know that we all dearly love new writers, and old writers, and mediocre writers and awesome writers. We aren't critiquing you, we're critiquing this little 5K blip in front of us. Also note that everyone's first like, five drafts suck. That's just statistics. Sometimes the group can help them suck less, and sometimes not. We do our best. With that all out of the way, let's get to the sub! Overall The setting is pretty generic -fantasy, but I'm curious about this demon inside the lady and it's a good hook. The only thing that concerns me is the colorism that might be cropping up. I think you'll need to spell out in detail, and early on, the skin tones and if our MC is an albino (and not just white). If everyone is white and MC lacks melanin, that's one thing (although then we'd have a convo about the nonexistence of all-white societies in medieval Europe), but if you're setting up the world as POC and then MC is white, that's going to be an issue. If the colorism piece is vital you might consider using a skin undertone that is unusual, like green, etc., to divorce it somewhat from modern colorism problems. Skin undertones are fun! Here's a tumbler on how to talk about them. Outside of the above quibbles, I really liked this! It had decent flow (though the intro was slow--and I sure am guilty of this too!) and the writing was solid. I don't usually go for present tense but this worked just fine. Looking forward to next week! As I go - getting some hard core fairy tale vibes here. Into it. - the carriage has a lacquered wooden interior? Can I live in this world? - pg 3: I have this faint yet burning hope that this marriage is to Lady E. This is how I ship. I'd apologize but... well, yeah. GO E! - pg 4: how do events drive one to squalor? I don't understand the line - wow, our MC really doesn't like peasants - pg 5: she said earlier that she would make a terrible mother, but here she is (mentally) offering to care for the baby. These two things seem at odds - page 6: okay, I'm ready for a bit more movement forward at this stage. Worldbuilding is good and I have a feel for our MC, but the carriage ride and self flagellation are running a bit long now - pg 7: cream is sort of by definition, uncolorful, isn't it? (Hello from the future! This is a good set up for albinoism if that is where you are going) - pg 8: okay at this point I'm concerned that the governess/handmaid is a woman of color and that our MC is not, and that this is setting up a world of reverse colorism/racism which is... not great to write about unless you are yourself a person of color. OTOH MC could be albino, which would be an interesting take, but I think we need that spelled out right here, if not earlier. - pg 17: I'm amused by this inner demon thing - nice ending!

@Asmodemon and @Mandamon do you think the ending would hit better if T had only recently died? Say, a few months instead of a few years? It can't be too soon, as Plot Relevance later, but a month would work just fine. It'd give E's grief more sharpness, but be long enough that her family might be starting to 'yeah, come on, move on.' Thoughts? I agree the ending bit needs something, but I'm struggling with what.

Oh look, it didn't autocorrect my name this time! Same as last week with edits to hopefully make it read a lot faster and smoother. Be as harsh as you'd like, it's still pretty early in the drafting process but this time around it shouldn't make your eyes bleed. Well, hopefully not, anyway. If pronouns are a concern, you are welcome to use 'she/her/hers' for all characters in this piece, regardless of their gender, unless the character states otherwise.

YES THIS FOREVER

Hokay so, the writing style didn't float everyone's boat. Check. I think I can strike a balance between the narrative voice I want and the problematic redundancy in the first several pages. The hologram thing was a fragment from a past edition and has been thoroughly edited. Apologies for that. I've decided to hold the scientist relevance for next chapter, so no need to work it into this one. I did change some other aspects a bit, and will resubmit this chapter before moving on to the next, to see if it's better hitting the mark. I've finished drafting the piece and while it unfortunately won't work for the anthology (I reread the submission requirements and it has to have some magic, too, which this does not) I'd still like to run it through the group. It might be useful some other time. Not an issue at all. I've been on the board for a few years and will take whatever form feedback comes in. Sifting through the comments is a useful exercise. Yes, I agree. @Severian4Scadrial if it helps, the movement in the community is very much say it on the page. Especially in the kind of anthology this was slated for, a section like that was critical. You'll see something similar in whatever I come up with next for the anthology, since this one is being scrapped. And of course I've forgotten what the pun was, so I can't edit it accordingly. May have to stay vague due to author memory lapse. AHAHAHAHAHAHA LOL. Because sisters. Yeah, this is what I'm curious to see how it comes across. I am definitely referring to XX men and that E is XX but with variation, too. She was meant to be nonbinary but ended up intersex...which I was going to change but it doesn't seem right so once again, another reason this short won't go to the anthology. I like the intersex angle a lot. I want to explore it more. Here's hoping V2 is better then Not entirely certain how to do this in the first chapter, but will think on it. I was marginally considering this short as a sort of prequel to an actual book or trilogy, or at least a way for me to build characters in my mind for such. I think E will come along after a few more passes. Or at least I hope she will. Hey hey! Always happy to see you around, @Asmodemon! Guilty as charged I've cut probably half of these wanderings so I'm hoping V2 keeps the flavor and recovers some pacing. Unfortunate, and something I want to avoid. She's a shell character right now that I'm hoping to repaint a bit after I've had one go through of draft zero. If you decide to read v2 this week (and I totally understand if v1 traumatized too much to do so) I'll be curious to see if she's more distinct from previous leading characters. Yeah, I need this part to resonate for everyone, not just half the reading body. I've tried to bring it out more in the new version. Here's hoping. Thank you so much everyone, for suffering through this. I'd normally do a few more go throughs before submitting but I'm on a time crunch with this. AND now I've decided to scrap it so ARGH! Anyway, edited version tomorrow. Oof.

I'll take slot, since it looks like we have plenty.

So heyyyyyy turns out I am eligible for a Campbell award (through the Hugo nomination ballot) this year. Any of you who are voting, I'd love if you would consider J.S. Fields as one of your entries. CAN YOU IMAGINE!?!?