IndigoAjah

He could well be Odium's champion

You are showing the struggles of depression and the extent to which the human spirit can recover! I agree that Sanderson is a bit sadistic specifically towards Kaladin but I also trust that it's going to pay off. And even with all that stuff, there are LOADS of fans elsewhere saying "why can't Kaladin just get over it? He's so mopey, he's not the sort of hero I want to read about", so I'm not sure Sanderson is anywhere near close to overselling this point yet. It's an anvil that's worth catapulting downwards with the force of an exploding star nevermind dropping

Disagree. Kal DOES feel terrible when things are going well. And things utterly collapsing around him actually triggers him to step out of his depression. I think it's the opposite of what you suggest. It's also inherently untrue to suggest that traumas don't exacerbate depression. The depression exists and can worsen outside of bad things, but it often has tangible triggers and is affected by outside events

Don't Forget Azure has her own NB, probably less potent and unbalanced, but also possibly created to combat NB itself.

Is that a quote from Sanderson about the Dawnshards that I've missed?

I loved Kal's arc in all 4 books and think any passivity/reactiveness in him is very realistic. Where people think the Depression has taken over his arc to overly define him, I have 2 quibbles: 1) that's the point. That's what happens. Sanderson is deliberately doing this and you are MEANT to feel frustrated and uncomfortable about it. 2) I think in the last 2 books, Kaladin's PTSD is more of a factor than his depression in many ways.

I don't think Lighteyes is the only option here. There are many other races in Roshar that Kal could be part - Horneater, Herdazian (my guess), etc.

Veil's obviously never broken that understanding, also in Part ...

I think they are about physics but more fundamental even than these forces and more theologically linked too. I think they are more around the laws of thermodynamics and entropy themselves, what things will do over time (which would be seen as laws set by God) and also linked to incommunicable attributes of God

I think Veil is dead, and much like Tien or Maya, this is a sacrifice she chose to make for Shallan's sake, knowing she would die So we should celebrate her bravery

I like Kal-Adolin- Shallan whether as a throuple or an angle around Adolin I like Syladin too. I don't hate Leshwi and Kaladin. I quite like Azure-Szeth, as if anyone can understand him the lady with the experience with Vasher can. Most of all, I ship Moash with Nightblood. Specifically Moash's heart with Nightblood's point

So this has been a theme of sorts throughout all of Stormlight, and to a degree the whole Cosmere, but reached a slightly different real-life-applicable context that I think Brandon is trying to frame an unspoken question around. Many Radiant Oaths look at the powerless, be it protecting the weak for the Windrunners, giving a voice to the helpless like the Edgedancers or freeing the subjugated like the Willshapers. Beyond that we've had slavery, indentured servitude, feudalism, class and caste systems and many other forms of subjugation explored in every book. We've had characters find their voice. In this book, letting people have autonomy, making choices you disagree with, is a key lesson. Kal had to learn to do it. Adolin and the Honorspren did with Maya and the Recreance. But in this book, we explored other forms of voicelessness, not "social" though really it's still social, and a look at when it right to live, save, kill or die. 1) Mental health, across the Fused, Kal, his patients, more than ever. The very mentally unwell, whether depressed or schizophrenic or catatonic, in the Alethi society get locked away in the dark because nobody knows how to treat them. 2) Raboniel's daughter, whom she works so hard to euthanise. 3) Moash deciding to mercy kill people, like Bridge 4, to "save them from pain" 4) Heralds more insane than ever, and the question as to whether continuing to live an eternal life is the right thing for a person to endure. 5) Deadeye Spren, who are treated as though utterly dead despite their signs of life, surely an allegory to neurologically and cognitively injured patients? And we see multiple approaches: do you nurture or segregate? And when can you kill out of Mercy? Moash seems obviously wrong, and the view of the Spren about Deadeyes being as good as dead seems wrong but is Raboniel's killing of her daughter good, bad or something debatable?

So, I'm I remember something similar to this from years ago when I was last here, but we have new information now. The many aspects of Honour (and linked to it, Passion) are something the Orders of Radiants are meant to examine, I think. I also think they all pair up imo with internal Vs external loci for the same concepts Windrunners - True justice based on morals (internal) not laws Skybreakers - despite talking about Justice are all about the Law, "objective justice", external Dustbringers - something about self-mastery apparently, need to know more. Edgedancers - advocating for the voiceless, external affirmation, so Representation, which would make Dustbringers self-affirmation which kind of fits. Truthwatchers - searching for external truth, Epistemology Lightweavers - focussed on inner truths, Honesty Elsecallers - I think something to do with making decisions for the many, ethics of consequence, utilitarian as opposed to Windrunners and Skybreakers who are deontological Willshapers - looking for freedom for others - hence I think Elsecallers will be looking for security for others, even at the cost of freedom Stonewards - externalised Duty, following orders Bondsmiths - Internalised Duty, leading others, Responsibility But the Surges are also linked and paired to Odium, so are there aspects of Passion that should be considered for each Order too? Any thoughts so far?

Sorry didn't mean to do this

I'll comment in more depth later but I like this. I wonder if that helps tie Mr T, who did everything to ensure his people (and only them) would survive at all costs. And whether Tanavast actually pulled a self-sacrificing Thanatos Gambit somehow

Though actually, come to think of it, that's irrelevant really. All that matters is whether Atium has regrown, which would still happen 300 years ish post The Last Empire (it's implied) and would still fit the timeline as long as W and W and SA happen near each other in time.

Do we know that? Pretty sure the speculation along various unofficial, fan timelines was that W and W and SA happened pretty much contemporaneously, certainly the letters imply it (certainly the one in this book). But do we have a WoB that this isn't the case, that W and W occurs after SA? Makes the last two Wax and Wayne books and Saze's confusion over what could be attacking him and seeming naivety about the Cosmere (if he's being honest to Wax) a bit weird

I think we apply the fundamental laws of physics here, as well as what God would have to be able to DO as well as to BE. Everything Changes, eventually, and God has to be able to Change things. As a bonus, God is not changed, in theory, which creates a second pattern - this are things God does actively but doesn't have done it it. Transitive. I like patterns so I'm going try this one too. Create? Maybe. It seems too obvious in some ways, but actually I guess that's the demiurge concept, so I'll allow Create/Begin and the universe has to Begin. Does God begin? Christian theology would argue not, so fits that secondary pattern too. End/Die. I think this is distinct to Destroy. But does the Universe end? It heads towards heat death. Does the world as created by God end? Depends on exactly what Sanderson thinks about the Future. But, would fit in that God doesn't End. Rather than Unite, which is possible as God would Unite things, though it would seem to make reforming Adonalsium a bit too easy, and it's a complex question to ask about Uniting God - and most importantly I don't think you can say the Universe inherently Unifies, it's not a law of existence - I would posit one of the following: Spread - things inherently spread as per thermodynamics and entropy, God spreads things from a centre but cannot be spread, being Omnipresent. Proliferate - another law of life and physics,and something God would make other things do but, being the Only God, never do itself. Split - see above. God is, apparently, unified, impossible to break up EVEN when it has distinct parts (that's a key attribute of the Trinity in fact). Just to say, I'm not Christian, but I think applying Sanderson's joint interests of physics and theology, specifically Judeo-Christian and more specifically Mormon theology, to the big concepts is most likely to align with the messages he will infuse his works with. This is all conjecture, but it's how I think Sanderson bases his universe

Trouble with Unite as a Command or Action that seems inherent to the universe is that, um, it isn't. Change defines the laws of entropy. Change is inevitable. Unifying is the opposite. Things break up, they don't Unify, generally, though I guess you could make an argument for nuclear fusion here. I know Dalinar did something nuts when he said that, but I'm personally sure that's either linked to Honor (bringing people together) of which he became a partial Holder, or of Adonalsium himself as a noun. But the Dawnshards appear to be verbs.

My other suggestion is how much can a Dawnshard, 4 of which could split Adonalsium, do to a single Shard? Change, could that Change its Intent, or at least alter it a bit? Maybe that's how we ended up with Odium and not Passion? Or maybe if Passion were picked up by someone whose only strong emotion was hate, it would slowly influence the Shard until that emotion became prominent and the Shard became Odium?

I think at this point Odium is going to escape Roshar. Maybe they bind him for a bit longer but I think his escape is narratively inevitable given we are less than halfway through SA and more and more Cosmeric components are being introduced or brought to Roshar. On that basis, I think the *plan* (whether it works) if Mr T's boon is still in action, by Cultivation is to get Odium to pick up Mercy, which would be irresistible to a fully compassionate/passionate T. Whether he does that or not, I don't know. Or whether that doesn't make things worse! Something that hates but wants to bring mercy might try to destroy the Universe.

In strict terms in our culture, I agree. In the language used to apply to shards, I disagree. Duty is following an Honour system, where you honour a code of conduct and obligations. Honour is binding yourself to a specific type of duty. They are parts of the same larger concept. You can disagree, this is just opinion. But I don't think we'll see Duty as a Shard because I think Sanderson has made it clear that Duty is incorporated into his Honor, in several different ways.

The broad concept of Honour, that includes Justice, includes Duty. There is no specific take on Honour to judge such corrupt people. The many aspects of Honour (and linked to it, Passion) are something the Orders of Radiants are meant to examine, I think. Which actually might ruin my Honesty theory as I think I can fit it in there too... They all pair up imo with internal Vs external loci for the same concepts Windrunners - True justice based on morals not laws Skybreakers - despite talking about Justice are all about the Law, "objective justice" Dustbringers - something about self-mastery apparently, need to know more. Edgedancers - advocating for the voiceless, so Representation, which would make Dustbringers self-affirmation which kind of fits. Truthwatchers - searching for external Truth Lightweavers - searching for inner honesty Elsecallers - I think something to do with making decisions for the many, ethics of consequence, utilitarian as opposed to Windrunners and Skybreakers who are deontological Willshapers - looking for freedom for others - hence I think Elsecallers will be looking for security for others, even at the cost of freedom Stonewards - externalised Duty, following orders Bondsmiths - Internalised Duty, leading others, Responsibility

I think if we look at various sources that Brandon will be taking from for his "God's" attributes we will get clues Christian theology suggests these attributes: Aseity - some would say held in Autonomy, if possible to apply to a Shard at all. Also a bit meaningless in this context as inherently held by all Shards or none at all (they need a bearer) Eternity - Preservation, and applicable to all Shards Goodness - hard one this, but might be covered by a number of Shards and feels soft as a Shard. Graciousness - subtly different but Mercy would cover this I think. Immanence applies to all the Shards Immutability - Preservation Impassibility - a very hard one to attach meaningfully, as is Impeccability Incomprehensibility - possibly? Etc etc. The ones I get left here are Veracity - which might be covered by Honor but also might not. Honesty? Sincerity? Other key attributes assumed about God: Love. Now Loving could come under Mercy or Devotion, or a combination of Mercy, Devotion and even Odium. What else does a Biblical, or Mormon, view of God suggest is inherent to such a being? I guess as Shards get holders, focus on communicable attributes makes sense. I think Veracity is actually my guess as it's accepted as a consistent attribute of Christeojudaic deity and it doesn't really get covered elsewhere. Or Peace/Pacifism?

I think Honor covers Duty to be honest