Toaster Retribution

I do see Jasnahs point, and her suggestions are not what makes me dislike her. It is her attitude toward those who disagree that is my issue. The reason for why I am discussing her compassion is because I disagreed with the idea that Heralds and parshmen didn't deserve symphaty, because they do. Their actions are understandable, and you can fight someone and feel symphaty for them at the same time. There are a couple of reasons for why I like Amaram and King T. The main thing is the fact that I can understand them and relate to them. As I stated, I have a hard time relating to Jasnah because of our how hugely different we are. I never feel that Amaram or King T are cold in the same way that Jasnah is. If you wish, I will try to explain it better tomorrow when I have had some sleep and acess to a computer instead of a phone. The other main thing about Amaram and King T is that they never treat people badly because they disagree. Jasnah did.

Good point. Her being cold is not really why I dislike her though. It is just one of the reasons as for why I have a hard time relating to her, but I wouldn't say that it is a flaw. The parshmen have been enslaved for 4,000 years, and the humans stole their home (it is implied that Jasnah knew that by then). The Heralds were basically tortured for eternity. Those are sound reasons to feel compassion.

A lot of people have brought up good points regarding Jasnah. Answers to some specific things: @Dreamstorm Jasnah should be able to extend above pettiness though. Kaladin is upsetting the social standards, but Jasnah of all people, who has been upsetting social standards her whole life should be okay with it, especially in the face of a Desolation. As for Shallan, while Jasnah doesn't know about her growth, she knows about her exploits, which should be enough. I totally agree that Jasnah should have flaws though, and she is a great character. I just dislike her as a person. I imagine that I would clash pretty hard with her if she existed IRL, which is what I am reacting to. @hoiditthroughthegrapevine I can see what you mean about the method, but I do think that it is a pretty lousy method, at least for OB Shallan, who is independent enough already. @Fifth of Daybreak You raise a lot of valid points. The one thing I can throw back is that even if Jasnah is aware of her faults, she has to try fixing them. Constantly losing her temper (Kaladin, Amaram) is something she needs to deal with, not just acknowledge. @Bliev I can see your point, but I still think that a measure of arrogance comes across when dealing with people she feels are below her, or people she disagrees with, like Kaladin. Furthermore, I should add that I also have problems identifying with Jasnah, partly because of that she is totally different from me in personality, and partly because she feels so cold most of the time. This is not her fault though, and more a personal thing for me. EDIT: Saw two more I needed to answer: @RShara Jasnah has compassion, as long as you deserve it. I don't agree. The parshmen and the Heralds both deserve compassion, but she gives none. @Darvys Jasnah: Sacrifice ten people to save mankind. Taravangian: Sacrifice thousands to save mankind. Amaram (why not?) Sacrifice four to save many. The difference lies in the numbers only, as far as I can see.

I just want to talk about this a bit, because after OB, I really dislike Jasnah Kholin. She has never been a favorite of mine, but I have found her to be alright. She has some good moments in WoK. In Oathbringer, that wasn't really the case (she has cool scenes here too, in the Battle of Thaylen City) since I found her to be a straight up douchebag. Here goes why: 1. The Voidbringer talk in Part 2. Here Jasnah wants to condemn the Heralds to eternal torture as opposed to Kaladin, who wants to spare them. Jasnahs drastic methods aren't why I didlike her (I like both King T and Amaram). What I dislike is her being a total douchebag to Kaladin when he disagrees. She quickly starts insulting him, and talks down to him. That is what I don't like. Granted Kaladin asks if she is insane when hearing about her plan, but I don't really think of that as an insult, but more a strong objection. Jasnah instantly starts insulting Kaladin, suggesting that he lacks logic, and that he isn't grown-up. 2. Her treatment of Shallan. Shallan has become an accomplished Radiant, who has saved the entire Alethi force, found Urithiru, and fought off an Unmade. Jasnah makes her a scribe. I understand that Jasnah is more experienced, that she can teach, and that Shallan needs to learn things, but giving her scribe duty is stupid. For one, it shows that Jasnah considers Shallan to be below her in status. Two, Jasnah should be able to figure out that Shallan might start to feel rebellious if she is treated like a random servant. Three, Shallan deserves to be treated as more of an equal, after all she has done. In short, I cant help but read Jasnah as someone who is convinced of her own brilliance. She thinks that she knows best, and that her ideas should be followed, while looking down on others who lack experience, or disagrees with her. She is domineering and self-important. Her aura of "I know best" is hugely bothering, and her borderline refusal to look at things from other peoples perspective is a glaring flaw. I also have a quick question. Jasnahs tactics do lack emphaty, and when suggesting that they kill the Heralds, Jasnah even says that it is better to sacrifice a few to save many. How come that everyone loves her anyway, but hates the likes of King T and Amaram? Where lies the difference? So, is there anyone who can explain/defend Jasnah? I'd love to hear peoples thoughts about her.

@PhineasGage if its any comfort, I liked Kaladin a lot here (better than in WoK and WoR) but there were so many awesome people, so I wound up not mentioning him.

It is Iyatil. It is more or less stated in WoR. One thing I have observed regarding Mraize is that he is kind of honest, and makes good on his promises, this far. He hasn't tricked Shallan once, and gave her both her brothers and the Skybreaker information. He gave Ash her info too. It would be fun in a way, if Mraize ended up being the most honorable of our human antagonists (King T, Amaram, Sadeas).

Nah. Syl likes to push her will on Kaladin. She is supportive, but sometimes she comes across as a bit of a self-absorbed douchebag. Pattern is supportive and fun, without the level of douchiness that Syl can have. He is much more chill as well.

If this was the case, I think we would have seen clearer effects on it in the book. Instead, Shallan slowly got better from that point onwards.

There are SO many! I have loved Adolin since WoK, and he keeps on being awesome here. He never backs down and keeps on caring for others. Elhokar was great as well. The scenes with Shallans drawing of him were beautiful. Taln. Partly because he is tankier than anyone else, but also because of his reaction to the others betrayal. He is a true hero. Amaram. He is a tragic figure, and I did not see that end coming, but I still love the guy. Szeths entire attitude and humbleness, along with some comments that seems very dry but unintentional made him a fun badass. I loved when blasted through the Thunderclast to save Lift. Dalinar just had a beautiful story, and I love the contrast between him and the man he once was. Pattern, for being Pattern. I will keep on stressing the fact that Pattern is far and away the best spren (he might be the nicest one as well). Mraize, because he has slippers.

I doubt that the Ghostbloods have been trying to save Jasnah, or that they are in total opposition to Odium. Remember what Mraize said about using the forces of the Desolation to gain power? I doubt he will pull a Taravangian and join the dark side, but he is not on the Radiants side.

Welcome! Have an upvote, and (hopefully) a good time!

Mraize had Ash. He could have used her for whatever nefarious purpose, and yet he let her go find Taln. What is the Ghostbloods up to? Why release her?

One thing that struck me when I read was the mention of Axies, by the Veristitalians. One of them spoke about sightings of Axies. Is he famous? Why are people looking for him? Does Jasnah know him?

Insaw someone who suggested that only a human could wield the knife. I personally think that it is some kind of loyalty test. Odium is building Moash up for something.

I think that he meant that he couldn't forgive himself for his actions. Warbreaker spoiler:

@PhineasGage that was a great post, very interesting to read! I understand you much better now, and I agree with you. I would suggest though that Jasnah is a bit weaker on the Interpersonal side. She even admits so in WoK if I recall correctly.

Actually, I'd say that Amaram was more of a reverse Dalinar than Moash was. Moash feels more like the reverse Kaladin. Personally, I think Venli is the Traitor. She is the most major of the three candidates (Venli, Moash and Renarin) and the other two don't really fit, as they weren't broken by ambition.

So, Stormfather tells Dalinar that Tezim = Ishar, and Dalinar basically forgets about it. They decided to try and find the Heralds, but when Dalinar learns of the location of one of them, he doesn't do anything. Anyone else who felt that was wierd?

I think he saw his goal of uniting Alethkar (maybe entire Roshar) beneath the church. Religious fanatics tend to believe that people will be better off following god. I think this is was Amaram really wanted, and, since he thought that it was good for all, I find him honorable. Yes, he was wrong, but ultimately, he wanted to make the world better. I agree that he wanted to be seen as honorable, but I do think that some of his honor was genuine. Also, he promised to stand trial for his crimes. Hadn't Odium showed up, I think he would have done that. Odium told him the truth about the Heralds at some point, which probably broke him. I imagine that it happened some time during the timespan of Oathbringer. I would have loved to see that scene from Amarams POV.

I doubt that Ishar is Restares. For all his faults, Amaram was a Vorin fanatic. Ishars behavior is heresy. So Amaram following Ishar would make no sense. High ranking church guy is possible.

You do have a point. I guess that the fact that he met Maya as a Deadeye, and the fact that she saved him several times made me expect to see him revive her, and thus, I was disappointed when it didn't happen. Oh, and @PhineasGage I disagree with your sentiment about Adolin not being bright, and not learning stuff. Actually, Adolin does learn military tactics and history, as well as the sword. It is not that he isn't bright, or that he doesn't want to learn. He learns different things from someone like Renarin. Yes, he isn't as interested in general knowledge as his brother, but he does learn things. And he is an excellent general as well, so he can use his learned skills well.

This was a huge anti-climax. I actually have problems seeing how Brandon thought in regards to this. Having Adolin revive Maya would have given the book a more powerful ending, and given him a complete arc. I guess Brandon wants to have Adolin around as the Average Joe, but still... it was wierd.

Everything feels wierd now... I'm used to the downvote button being there. It was like the guy at the party who you tried to stay away from, but whose absence is noticeable. R.I.P the downvote button.

As Amarams only fan, I feel the need for a thread for him. His story has reached his destination now (with Sadeas gone in WoR, and Amaram gone in OB we are bumping off antagonists real quick. Moash, Mraize and Nale should be watching their backs). Anyway, were you satisfied with how his story with Kaladin ended? Do everyone still hate him? Personally, I have mixed feelings. I still like him. I find him a tragic character, who tried to do what he found honorable, which wound up breaking him completely, and (literally) turned him into a monster. It is a good story. I can't help but feel that his final moments would have had more impact if we saw his reaction to the Heralds betrayal first-hand. I feel like that was a defining moment for his character. In the end, I would have wished that he got to stay around a bit longer (I am not really into the possession part by Odium either), but in the end, it was pretty good, despite issues. Anyone else having an opinion? Also, I thought about something fun. Rock became a bridgeman after his cousins failed attempt to duel Sadeas for his shards, but Sadeas killed him. It is ironic that Rock was the one to kill Amaram, and gain his Shards, since he was the new Sadeas.

I guess that the humans abandoned Odium, for obvious reasons. The spren and Honor then preferred the humans. It is stated several times how the spren abandoned the Listeners in favor of the humans. Both the Listeners and Odium were sad and abandoned, and thus, found eachother. I imagine that some Listeners (the dead ancestors) just wanted to remove the humans from Roshar, and took whatever help they could get. Some were probably possessed as well.