Toaster Retribution

I had the chapter up because I wanted to check the Heralds at the heading in order to find weak support for my weak Jenet=Chana theory (funnily enough, Chana is at the chapter heading along with Jezrien, so I found my weak evidence). I skimmed through it and failed to find Jenet talking of her sister. She doesn't even talk to Adolin, and only throws rocks at him, as far as I saw. You might have her mixed up with another woman who is mad at Adolin (there are a lot of them).

From where do we know about Jenets sister? I don't think it is mentioned in the book.

I doubt Liss is Chana. She feels to... real to be a mad Herald. She lacks the feel I get from the other Heralds. That said, she is one of the best candidates we have, but I doubt she is the one. Just to throw other names out there, anyone who thinks that Danlan or Jenet could be Chana (or Vedel, for that matter)? They are both minor characters who feels somewhat important. Otherwise, my tip for finding suspects would be scouring the Interludes. EDIT: Yay, 1,000 posts! I'll celebrate by eating some bread.

I know that you dn't want to see the Elhokar-becomes-a-great-king arc (I would be happy with both of the possible arcs in this case). However, what I meant is basically that Elhokar going to Kholinar snd learning from Kaladin is not (in my opinion) an unlikely plot-point, which I found most of the others to be. I would not be at all surprised to see Elhokar and Kaladin going to Kholinar.

I doubt some of these for several reasons. Jah Keved already has a king, first and foremost. It is Taravangian. I also doubt that Adolin will go to Azir. I think he will spend a big chunk of the book with his father, before maybe being exiled. I also doubt that Renarin will be sent to the Purelake. Dalinar will want to keep him close and protect him. Renarin will most likely not have many, if any POVs, until the back five. Kaladin and Elhokar ending up in Kholinar is good though, and has a big chance of happening.

@dionysus I forgot about that quote, thank you. Anyway, I wonder how big parts of the west this concerns. The Shin pbviously worships something entirely different. @Calderis What you say is true. I do think that you can have influence in different ways, and Honor might talk about one kind of influence, while the Death Rattles concerns another.

This made me think. What if the Broken One isn't Odium, but Honor? Once, humanity had three gods (Honor, Cultivation and Odium). Odium and Cultivation are still alive, but forgotten by humanity (or at least not worshipped). Honor aka the Almighty aka the guy who got splintered, would be the Broken One, the one who reigns, since he is the only one still worshipped. And to be honest, I never got why Odium is called the Broken One anyway.

Yeah, if all the lords swore fealty to someone, and that someone then got rid of the current king and the heirs in one way or another, he/she would be the ruler. To be honest, I believe Varys planned to help her from the start. He plotted with Illyrio in season one, and in the books, he has supported the Targaryens since the beginning.

First, quick book spoiler: But in the show you are correct, Stannis is dead. I am not sure on the inheritance law when the kings legitimate children and siblings are out of the picture, but I guess the Throne going to his wife is logical. So yeah, I'd say Cersei has right to the Throne as it stands now (I'm not a fan of hers though). If Cersei hadn't been married to Robert and still taken the Throne, then no, she wouldn't have been the legal queen, simply because there are still Houses that hasn't sworn fealty to her, and admitted her as queen of the Seven Kingdoms. All non-extinct and non-banished Houses did so with Robert, which is why I consider his claim the best. The Unsullied would follow Dany no matter what, because she bought them. Their whole lives have been centered around serving the one who buys them. Now they follow her because she freed them, yes, but she would never have been able to do that without the dragons. I'll admit that you are correct about the Dothraki though. She did that one without the dragons. But I doubt they follow her because she is just and fair. They are a bunch of pillaging warriors, they care sbout strenght. They follow because she burned their old leaders and emerged unscathed by the flames.

We have now discussed mind-controlling, spiking, murdering and the breeding and spiking of baby beavers... wonder if we could be reported for planned animal cruelty...

This might be of interest. It contains things to look for during rereads, both Cosmere-wise and Stormlight-wise. There might be things missing there though, but I'm sure someone can stop by and dump some info. I'll just tag generally helpful people who usually know stuff and see if they can contribute: @Extesian @Calderis @Oversleep

@Oversleep The part of my reasoning that you pointed out is the part that I myself felt was the weakest. I wasn't sure if that would hold up to scrutiny. If I get to try again, I guess I would say that spren are dependent on a bond to be able to gift powers to people/greatshells/whatever. They can't do it on their own, and they can only bond one person. This gave me a new idea however: if we can continue using the example of allomancy, we will see that the abilities to burn metals are required to be in your DNA/spiritweb. Otherwise, swallowing metals will not do you anything. In my line of reasoning, spren are the DNA, at least when it comes to KR bonds. You need to be able to attract a spren, in order to form the bond. The spren comes first and the bond is second, and activates the powers. In the same vein, the DNA is first in Allomancy, and the metals come after, and activate it. @Calderis I agree with all the things you said about Listeners and fabrials. @Cowmanthethird Theorizing about Cosmere magic is something I am fairly bad at, at least normally. I try to learn stuff and become better, but I dont know how much help I can give you on the soulcasting and Old Magic. My immediate thoughts are that the soulcasters without spren might suffer from something similar to Shardblades (being dead). That feels unlikely though. Is it possoble that the soulcasters bond directly with the humans? I think I read that suggestion somewhere (might have been Calderis, or you, or someone else). When it comes to the Old Magic: it's wierd and mysterious, and to quote Khriss "something else enitrely." I take that to mean that it doesn't necessarily need to be bound by the same rules, or have the same focus as the other magics on Roshar. Anyway, I feel kind of honored that you think that I might have stuff to add. I hope that what I wrote is of some help. I shall consider these issues some more.

If we are discussing focus (which we apparently are) I just want to jump in and give my view of Roshars focus. I think that the most logical thing is that it is centered around bonds, not spren. Partly because of thematic reasons. Bonds, honor, oaths are all things that Brandon are delving into in Stormlight, and that makes me feel like it makes sense if bonds are the focus. There are also a lot of bonds in the story. Furthermore, we can look at Syl and Kaladin, and Syls death in WoR because of Kaladins oathbreaking. If the spren had been the focus, Syl should be more in control, and be able to stay by Kaladins side and give him Surgebinding no matter what oaths he breaks. But Syl isn´t in control. The bond is, and if it breaks, she dies, and Kaladin loses his powers. It also looks like the magic and ecology of Roshar are dependent on the symbiosis between spren and other lifeforms. Symbiosis is the important word here. The spren receives things from the bonds too, in the case with the KR, it is becoming sentient, retaining memory and understanding the world around them in a better way. The humans get powers. If the bond breaks, the spren dies, and the human loses the powers. The fact that the spren get something as well points to the bond being the important thing, the focus. Furthermore, if spren were the focus, I feel as if they wouldn´t need the bond. They would just be able to gift Surgebinding to everyone they came across. Pattern could give Illumination to Jasnah, Syl could give Gravitation to Adolin, and so on, and Kaladin and Shallan would still have their powers. The spren can only grant powers when they have the bond. That should imply that they aren´t really in charge, but the bonds are. By the way, @Calderis, why do you say foci all the time?

Its been a while since I read the Kholinar/Lhan Interlude, but we don´t exactly know how religious Aesudan is. We know that she treats her citizens badly, and that she is worried about the Almighty being mad at her. This kind of fear, about being sinful and angering God, can defenitely happen in real life (I worry over it sometimes, so I know). Point is, if Aesudan has been brought up in a fundamentalist home (the family of Restares) then it is not at all unlikely to assume that she would suffer from this, and thus try to please the Almighty by bribing ardents. I am not at all convinced that I read her character correctly, but the option is worth considering. If Gavilar had a Herald with him, I doubt he knew about it (wonder how he would react if he knew that Nale & Kalak spoke to his son?) You are also right in that Gavilars information has to come from somewhere, so a Herald is not impossible. There are other possible sources though. With the visions and ancient writings he may be able to piece something together. It is also possible that he borrowed, or stole, information from the Ghostbloods. Who knows, they might have been allies, who now has turned into enemies. Or the Sons of Honor existed before Gavilars visions, and already had some information. There are a lot of possibilities. If a Herald was involved, we need to ask ourselves which one. You guessed Ishar. I am not entirely onboard there. Edgedancer spoiler: If we exclude Ishar, what other Herald could possibly fit with this? Paliah maybe? She miht have been at the Palanaeum, maybe she is hiding important books from Jasnah? I honestly don´t know, but the observation that Gavilar knows a lot that he shouldn´t really is a good one worth thinking more about.

You are right, the claim is stronger than I thought. That said, I still think that the Baratheons, who everyone swore allegiance to, has the biggest right to the Iron Throne. Robert was king, usurper or not, and by Dany logic (it is right to take over any city/nation if their leaders are crembags) then Robert and Stannis defenitely deserves the throne.

I feel like he is fighting for Roshar now though. He fought the Parshendi for Gavilar (mostly). But when it comes to the Desolation and the Voidbringers, he fights for the human race, not for Gavilar or even Alethkar. I think we have reached the point where Dalinar is doing what he does for a truly good cause (survival of mankind).

I like this. The only thing that doesn't add up is his ruthlessness, which you mentioned, but your proposed explanations for that isn't bad either, except for that I doubt being ruthless and cold is Taravangians true personality. Good job!

@Delightful I have a whole bunch of reasons for liking Daenerys: -She is entitled despite, in my opinion lacking the right to the Throne. Every house in Westero (except the dead and banished Targaryens) swore fealty to Robert as king. That makes Robert the legal king, and Stannis the heir. Dany (or Jon, for that matter) lacks a claim in my opinion. -She is hypocritical. She is mad about losing her throne in Westeros. She calls Robert the Usurper. So she starts taking other peoples thrones. Sure, they are bad people, but so was the Mad King. -It seems like a lot of her character is: I have dragons! which feels cheap. So yeah, thats basically it, I think.

Stupid question: if you spiked a beaver, would it be able to understand how to use its powers, and in that case, could you create a terrifying Fullborn beaver overlord?

Welcome! Don't worry about the language, there are loads of different languages here (I'm from Sweden, so english isn't native to me either). Hope you enjoy it around here!

My crackpot assumes she fake died. We dont know the cause of her death, right?

Actually, it makes sense. The Alethi are warriors, and Restares is presumably Alethi. We also see how fighting-focused Amaram is, so it wouldn´t surprise me if being a warrior is big among the Sons of Honor. And also, the highprinces were good soldiers once, as Dalinar points out in WoR, so the officer description doesn´t eliminate them. That said, I doubt it is one of them, unless Sadeas was a secret Son of Honor, which seems unlikely. I am with @Extesian about the other officer being Restares, although another (unlikely) option would be Graves, who we know is a warrior. That said, he might be too young. Adrotagia seems likely for one of the women. Restares wife is probably the most likely candidate for the other right now, but that is mostly because there aren´t many other fitting female characters. The only one I can think of is Aesudan. It has been suggested that she could be Restares daughter, and in that case, it might be her. Or: Crackpot theory: the other female is Dalinars wife. That would be a game changer.

@Kalleth This is very much about personal opinions and what you are looking for in a book. I don´t read for prose. Rothfuss impressed me in that area, but that is not what I look for when I read fantasy. I mostly look for something extremely epic, with a huge amount of characters and plotlines. This really isn´t what Kingkiller is. That isn´t what Kingkiller should be either. But that is what ASoIaF is, and that is the primary reason for why it appeals to me (and others). Also, the ice zombies are hardly the most impressing thing about Martins worldbuilding. It is the different nations and cultures, the noble houses, the history of the world. The place feels real. And I agree with you, those dragons are terribly overrated. Also, feeling dread when you read ASoIaF adds to the excitement, at least for me. Furthermore, I disagree with ASoIaF being turn-your-brain-off fantasy. There is a lot of depth and complexity to be found in those books. Such as the fact that it often feels like Martin is taking and twisting old fairy-tales. For example, Beric Dondarrion, who punishes criminals of war and gives money to poor refugees sounds like Robin Hood. But add in the fact that Beric consistently dies and is brought back to life, each time keeping old wounds and losing old memories. That is when it starts feeling dark and creepy. You can still sense the fairy tale roots in there, but it is a lot darker. Martin generally subverts tropes, and plays around with old medeival stories, which I enjoy. I also find his characters richer, and more interesting. Stannis, Sandor, Theon, Robert, Tyrion, Jaime, Tywin... there are more. In KKC, I didn´t really get invested in any of the characters to the point that I could keep on thinking about them for days, weeks. I get that with ASoIaF. From my point of view, ASoiaF is a better story, but again, I think it boils down to why and how you read fantasy. There isn´t really an objective truth here, and I definitely agree with your last statement: both are worth a read.

Beware, unpopular opinion(s) coming in: 1. I am not that fond of most of Tolkiens books (the descriptions bogs them down) The movies are much, much better in my opinion. 2. Yes, I also like the Hobbit movies (LotR is better though). But then I really haven't read Simarillion. I did read Children of Hurin though, and that one was very good. So Children of Hurin ks my pick.

I think Beric is a Herald. He keeps coming back when you kill him. This theory would also make the Lannisters Voidbringers.