hoser

It is an interesting theory. One issue I have with it is Shardic intent. People under a Shardic influence will generally behave consistently with that Shard. We saw what happened when Kaladin acted less honorably. We also have an example of someone under the influence of Odium. Shallan's father (Lin?) was clearly under Odium's influence and his behavior was quite horrendous. The general Shin populace seem quite peaceful from the examples we have seen. Their behavior seems more consistent with Cultivation than Odium. Although there may be some weirdness involving the Shin leadership, I don't see the general populace as worshiping or following Odium. The Unmade are another example of Odious followers. Once living beings, they seem to have given up their bodies and who knows what else to become malevolent spirits. We also see what happened to Eshonai when she took on Odious influence. She overthrew the rest of the leadership and militarized her people. She also interacted scornfully and threateningly, showing the pervasive Odious influence. With Honor splintered and Cultivation seemingly disinterested, Vorinism and Stone Shamanism may have been perverted to serve Odium's purposes. For example, the gender seperation rules in Vorinism seem to serve division, distrust and ignorance. I think that is a far cry from actually following or worshipping Odium. The Shin seem to believe the lies of the Heralds and have retained information lost to the Alethi. It is an intriguing mystery how the Radiants fit into the history. It makes sense for the Radiants to have retrieved the Heralds' weapons. As Honor was around when most of the Heralds packed it in, it seems like the Radiants should have figured out that the Heralds lied about winning. If the Radiants passed the Honorblades to the Shamans, it seems likely that they would have passed on the information about the Heralds' faithlessness. Did the Radiants not know? Did the Radiants never have the Honorblades?

I looked and couldn't find the reference. Does it specifically say interbreeding? I understood that they were genetic combinations of humans and listeners, but I thought the combination could have come through magic rather than interbreeding. I have trouble imagining genetics that would allow interbreeding, much less fertile interbreeding.

With the Stormfather confirming it, I would say that the Voidbringers are definitely back. from WoK chapter 89:

Welcome! Yeah, I think it's kind of a plot problem. Brandon can come up with explanations, of course: different subgroups, evolving needs as described above, etc. But I prefer not to think about how obvious solutions like communicating with Gavilar or negotiating an end to the war before turning to Stormform would have avoided creating the Everstorm, something neither the Alethi nor the Parshendi wanted. Brandon needed the assassination and the Everstorm to happen, I figure. He has a story to tell and sometimes people have to do nonsensical things to make the story happen. It is sort of like Szeth being so crazy that he doesn't notice the Voidbringers that are in the climactic battle before continuing with trying to assassinate Dalinar. The voidbringers were the proof he needed that he was never Truthless, but insanity is a convenient way to make the battle happen that you want to have happen.

The only Honorblade we know, Jezrien's, changed Szeth's eyes to sapphire. Sapphire is the color associated with Windrunners, the order associated with Jezrien. It is quite possible (though not proven) that Honorblades will also change the color of lighteyes eyes. If so, Heleran's eyes would have changed to the color associated with the order of the Herald associated with the Honorblade.

Kaladin didn't know he could surgebind either, but he still infused and went super fast. Szeth mentioned that the armor interfered with his bindings specifically, so it probably didn't affect infusion as that is an internal process. Heleran used his blade without Shardplate when confronting his father, so we know he wasn't always armored. When he confronted their father, there was no mention of his eyes changing color. After centuries, if not millenia of keeping the blades unknown, an Honorblade suddenly went missing just in time for Mr. T's lie? Possible, but more complicated than just having Mr. T lie about the blade being missing. Szeth, exiled from the Valley of Truth, is unlikely to find out anytime soon. This theory is possible, but it doesn't explain anything that I'm aware of, and it requires a number of unknown things in the backstory to fall a certain way. Now if there were textual hints about abilities that Amaram or Heleran had shown that they wouldn't have with an ordinary dead Sprenblade, that would really support this theory. Unfortunately, I am not aware of any.

Welcome! This is a very interesting perspective. Given that we know Mr. T was completely at sea about Shallan's abilities, assuming him to be correct about his explanations for his conclusion seems strange to me. What we know about Heleran is: the Ghostbloods claim that he sought the Skybreakers He wore Shardplate and had a Shardblade His arrival on the battlefield is mysterious, possibly arcane His Shardplate is not glowing with glyphs Kaladin bests him in a battle where Kaladin is a great disadvantage. He does not seem to be moving with enhanced speed. Long before Kaladin is aware of Syl's influence, he is working at super speed and there are apparent hints that he is magically affected. Szeth had an honorblade, glowed and was moving at superspeed. If Heleran was even as advanced as a surgebinder as Kaladin, I think it would have been apparent. If he had been given an Honorblade by someone who knew how to use it and been trained, it would likewise have been apparent. I guess this theory is not impossible. However, it doesn't seem to explain anything and raises more questions than it answers. Why would an Honorblade be missing when Mr. T was obviously lying? Why would Heleran have it? How did Heleran get it? Why was there no apparent manifestation of it being an Honorblade for either Amaram or Heleran? Please accept my apologies if this seems unduly harsh.

Go to chapter 87, the part that starts with, "Shallan stood at the gates of Urithiru." pg 1048 of the hardcover

I assume that you haven't read Words of Radiance. Its been out for long enough that people here refer to the contents freely.I recommend you read it soon. Not only will it help you lead and follow discussion, but I think it will be a more enjoyable way to get up to speed than parsing this forum. Anyway, until you read it, you can take it as fact that Urithuru is on a mountain.

Sure, the common people of Roshar may not see it as a globe. But the common people of "modern" Roshar are not locating and building Urithiru. The Knights Radiant, possibly in conjunction with Honor are likely the ones who did this. There may have been Bondsmiths communicating with superspren or Honor himself. Two orders can fly, so the world being round would be obvious to them. Consider the following quote: Note that it says westward, not at high altitude. It seems like there was a real constraint on Urithiru's location, not the wish to satisfy superstitious peasants, none of whom actually know where it is really located.

It's possible. She is known to be a part of Graves cell, which fits the suggestion of the OP. She is basically known to be a spy for Mr. T. Are you suggesting that she is secretly spying on Graves as an independent check by Mr. T? How do you know that she knows Mraize? Actually, in my annoyance at the repetitive posting of images about thread necromancy, I looked up forum etiquette. As this is a Theory thread in a Book forum, I believe the following policy (from here) applies. I guess there is a judgement call about how substantial the post is. Thread necroing is apparently acceptable in certain cases, explicitly so in theory threads in book forums.

Actually, now that I think about it, I have become a skeptic. I see two issues: While it is arguably closer at it's nearest point, the average distance to the moon is actually greater, as the moons spend most of their time on the opposite side of the planet. The distance will be closer less than half of the time. Shards have bodies. While they don't materialize while holding the Shard, they may still need air and heat to survive. Judging by our moon, the moon is unlikely to be hospitable to biological life. This point may not apply, as invested Kaladin does fine without air, and Shards have plenty of Investiture. I feel disappointed, as I really liked this theory. In light of this, I am going back to the geographical nexus associated with Honor, conceivably even the Purelake.

It certainly seems possible. On the other hand, Szeth seems to refer to the sun as the God of Gods in I-10. I doubt that any of the Shards based themselves on or in the sun. Stone Shamanism is strange. Maybe the respect for farming goes with a reverence for the sun and moons?

I think it's a reasonable theory. As Moogle alluded, you aren't the first to interpret that quote that way. Consider 2ii here, here and here. I got these from a quick search on "Melishi." Please don't think that this diminishes your brilliance in any way. Let's just say that great minds think alike . In addition, apparently coming up with an old idea is more acceptable than responding to old discussion, so posting it as a new theory exposes people to the idea again without subjecting us to the tedious recapitulation of old images about thread necromancy.

The Heralds would be around for years before and during a desolation. If I had a life of being tortured with interludes consisting of desperate struggle, I could see wanting to enjoy the torture-free time to the fullest. I think Brandon wants the investiture to match Shardic intent. In a world influenced by preservation, inheritance fits for the magic system. Honor seems to fit better with being invested by one's actions.

Gravitation, not Gravity? Did I miss the part of Vorinism that the names of the Holy Surges have to end with "ion"? Or should they have to start with "noi" also?

@kurk: On magic vs humanity, I guess I just have trouble imagining a better way for it to work. The heroes have strengths and foibles. The Shards act through people to an extent. If they have any influence, it will reduce internal consistency. So it seems that there should be some influence and the characters have choice about whether to accept it. We see Kaladin failing and then succeeding, still depressed, but evolving to fit the Shardic intent and tapping into the power. With Kaladin, Dalinar, Shallan's father, Moash (see:on-topic) and Adolin, the strengths line up with the Shard and I accept the magical influence. The ones that I am really curious about are the ones where there is somewhat of a fit between the Shard and the person, but ineptitude produces ineffectiveness. What is up with Elhokar? And what about Balat and his liking the suffering of animals? @Moogle - I must have communicated poorly. I understand that you grew to despise Amaram and Sadeas. I was more commenting on your initial attraction. After arguing with you on a number of points, you wrote the following, and I think I get where you are coming from. You want these guys to be that morally grey villain (villain/hero?) who will actually be at least partly right and vital, so Sadeas, Mr. T and Amaram held some initial attraction. Ultimately, Sadeas and Amaram didn't fit, but I was trying to reference the trope you are looking for. I think Moash does still have potential to fit the pattern, but he could also let you down. Ultimately, I don't see an either/or. There is always a personal influence as with Moash's initial hatred. There can also be a magical influence. With magical influence will come more power. I suspect magical influence on Moash, but am not certain.

So wait, let me get this straight. You are reading fantasy and unhappy with all the darn magic. But you want to take the magic and make machines with it. So you're okay with the magic when you can turn it into science? You do know that there are regular novels that don't have magic in them. Is Moogle the guy who wants the heroes to not be helpful, while the corrupt, evil pond scum like Sadeas and Taravangian save the day? I think you are both fighting the genre that you chose, but with Brandon's plot twists, he might have a better chance. Moash has obviously evil intent, but he hasn't actually done any harm yet. I'm interested in what Brandon does with him.

Baxil's mistress has light eyes, and doesn't seem to fit any racial type. "Taln's" identity is in question, so we can't draw too much from his description. The heralds predated the Silver kingdoms, so it seems unlikely that they would fit the racial stereotypes when periodic desolations would wipe out entire countries. I believe they may have come from off-planet, as the Vorin mythology suggests. "Baxil's mistress" could have borne a dead sprenblade during the millenia, so even her light eyes may not be significant.

Hi Kurk, nice to see one of your comments. Seems like it's been a while. But you must have been busy. Tarachin superstar, you say. You're right, of course. You will note that I equivocate with "suggests". I think one can be forgiven the smelling of rats where hatred is concerned on a world under the influence of "Odium". This is partly the story of magic and the Shards. If magic or Shardic influence weren't prevalent or powerful, how could it work? Clearly Brandon wants a story with magic in it. People's personalities figure in, but magic is relevent too. When the magic tends to seek out exceptional individuals, it gets even harder to find the exceptional mundane. Let's say Kaladin's need to protect had a mundane genesis. ... profit! Renarin's base disease and Kaladin's depression aren't necessarily Shardic in origin, so that leaves you room for hope. Still, if Odium has a chance to influence Moash or Hobber, who do you think he will choose?

I love Moash. Sure, the evil thing. I'll grant you that. But there is so much Brandon can do with him. I love the range of potential. He is the best bridgeman fighter, and clearly driven by hatred. This suggests Odious investment. He acted to gain revenge independently, then against Kaladin's express orders. We can give him treacherous and insubordinate. He saved Kaladin's life and they still seem to care about each other at the end. The potential directions: Odious minion or champion:possibly betraying Kaladin again. Odious agent who shows mercy to Kaladin at a key juncture. Redeemed by Kaladin's growing leadership skills, he betrays either Odium or Mr. T.. Maybe both. Sure. Hate him. He deserves it. But love what Brandon will do with him!

I totally agree. Not every Surgebinder would choose to be king. Given enough Surgebinders, I would guess that there would be no non-surgebinding kings without the Knights to enforce order. Without much basis, I think that it doesn't matter, because there never were that many unregulated Surgebinders. I think there were only a small number of Surgebinders before the Nohadon vision. I think Ishar, Nohadon, or somebody else constrained the spren and there were Radiants soon after the Nohadon vision. Nohadon organized the ten kingdoms and the Knights were able to reign in the would-be kings or there just weren't any other Surgebinders. The memory of the Radiants could have helped the current lighteyes come into power after the Recreance, as you say. I don't know that it was necessary, as Shardblades would have given them the power and eye color would be a way to perpetuate it. Given that they had both, it's impossible to tangle out how much effect was due to which cause. Your positive beliefs about human behavior definitely prove you to be a better person than I .

Okay, call me a cynic then. For me, the difference between royalty and warlord is a generation. I think the current lighteyes got in command by being the people with the Shardblades after the Radiants left, then muscled the ardents and everybody else into rationalizing it. If you want to believe that Surgebinders happily served much less powerful royalty without KR to enforce order, I can't prove you wrong.

Implicit in the KR vision is that pre-KR, surgebinders are the kings. If they don't start out as kings, that can easily be fixed by a Surgebinder. As we know, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren. So, pre-KR, the idea of noble Surgebinders serving non-surgebinding kings doesn't seem likely to be common (see Alakavish). I think Oathgates goes with stable kingdoms, KR and Urithiru. A virtuous cycle, if you will.

I feel like a broken record, so I must be missing something. I see multiple solutions wherein Nohadon's life does not have to span multiple Desolations. Ishar hasn't left by the time the Dalinar vision occurs. Ishar does his thing before returning to be tortured. Ishar does his spren thing while being tortured or instructs someone on what to do Ishar is falsely credited with what someone else did ("Taln" giving Ishar credit argues against this, so I don't like this one). Desolations are described as surprising and also wreak such great havoc that they would need multiple generations to recover from (9 out of 10 dead?), so I don't see multiple of them fitting in a normal lifetime. If Nohadon lives for an unreasonably long time, then he is invested, and the Knights probably formed, so there is no need for him to live a long time. This is not to say that Nohadon's life could not have spanned multiple Desolations, but just that it is one of several possibilities.