hoser

It may be helpful to consider the nature of the Oathgates. We are given a few hints. The Oathgate lock is impervious to Shardblades (even Shardplate is not impervious to Shardblades, but Shardblades are impervious to Shardblades) Shallan posits that the Oathgate lock is the same stuff as Shardblades (Shardblades are splinter-spren) Only livespren Shardblades work in the Oathgate lock. When Jasnah Elsecalls to where Wit is, it is described as: "The air in front of him blurred, as if heated in a ring near the ground. A streak of light spun around the ring, forming a wall five or six feet high. It faded immediately - really, it was just an afterimage, as if something glowing had spun in the circle very quickly." Syl also engages in circling behavior sometimes when Kaladin fights. When Kaladin travels to Urithiru through the Oathgate, there is a similar description of a glowing ring. Jasnah considers the gates to be locked (I assume that Jasnah has tried using Ivory in livespren-blade form in the remaining Oathgates). Speculation: The glowing ring is a spren circumnavigating the space being transferred. The Oathgate lock is a live spren, possibly related to Jasnah's oilspren or the Willshaper spren (maybe a non-sentient cousin, like windspren are non-sentient cousins to honorspren). The Oathgate spren either transfers the space as Jasnah's spren transfers her or it allows the splinter-spren to transfer the space (If only we could get Syl or Pattern's description of the process). Application to locking: The existing lock has a key that more or less requires a Radiant with a splinter-spren already. No merely physical barrier could stop Jasnah, as pointed out in other posts. Two possibilities occur to me (there must be other possibilities that more creative minds will consider): Another spren is used to lock the Oathgate. The Oathgate lock spren is removed. If another spren is used to lock the Oathgate, it must have an even more exacting unlocking mechanism. What could that be? A Bondsmith? An Honorblade? A Dawnshard (the default answer for any mystery)? If the Oathgate lock spren is removed, then another must be enlisted somehow. I can't wait to hear from Ivory. Wild speculation: There are many unexplained lines in the Surgebinding chart linking the orders. Some of those lines link adjacent orders. What if creating an Oathgate is something that only a Willshaper and an Elsecaller (the two orders that can travel) can do? In this case, it may take Jasnah and a Willshaper to fix the remaining Oathgates. Could a Truthseer tell us what it would take to unlock the remaining Oathgates? These are really just speculations to stir further speculation that may puzzle out this mystery. Have at it!

These are very interesting questions. What is the purpose of the knights? How do the orders combine to achieve a greater whole than any order by itself? Is the goal survival? Without prediction and an ideal of "journey before destination", does right action within a range allow for horrendous possible consequences? It seems to me that the ten orders represent aspects of Honor and Cultivation. The drives and means for each order are different. Together, at their best, the orders represent encompassing ideas of H + C. Leadership and protection seem to me to be found in both H and C, even though they are more apparently "honorable". Even though Kaladin seems to be striving in a very honorable way, he helps those around him survive and grow, which seems to be cultivation. The Lightweaver way is different and less apparently honorable. Syl dislikes all lies, but Pattern loves "good" lies. With "good" lies, Shallan achieves very honorable results.

Just to add to the list from what I know: Hoid has a precognitive ability that tells him when and where important things will occur, but not what they are. Hoid can do interplanetary travel using Shadesmar. Hoid claims that Jasnah's Shardblade can't hurt him. There may even be WoB that it is true. Hoid has the Moon Sceptor, but I don't know if it gives him any abilities. Hoid has a genius for taunting and carries multiple pairs of boots around to placate Horneater princesses.

"Almost surely" My point was that it was not a basic lashing. I take it that you agree. Is it a side effect of infusing for all surgebinders? Let's consider other instances. When Kaladin falls with Szeth: When Kaladin falls with Shallan: Kaladin and Shallan survive incredible falls, but Kaladin does not do the flash of stormlight landing thing and is injured in both cases. We don't know what happened to Shallan, but Kaladin's examples seem to show that it is not an automatic stormlight function. The survival, possibly due to the healing, seems to be automatic. The stormlight flash safe landing seems to be different, and could be related to the pressure surge.

The point was: there is precedent for Shard battle by proxy using champions on other worlds. As such, it is a perfect example. Consider the quote Aleksiel provided us: "All of us" seems to apply to Shards. The rules he is referring to seem likely to apply to all Shards. So choosing champions doesn't seem like a special provision of the Oathpact (although there could be additional provisions regarding champions in the Oathpact, I suppose). Shardic agreements are likely to be as in Mistborn, enacted by committing investiture. Even Honor is not likely to trust Rayse while he holds "Odium." If Honor could force Odium to do things, I suspect Roshar would be a very different place.

The way I read the quote of Honor's vision, the rules apply to Shardic conflict, which would explain why it also worked with Preservation and Ruin. Presumably if both sides choose a champion, then the rules regarding champions apply. Could the Stormfather choose a champion for Honor?

The text specifically describes a release of investiture in association with the event. That does not happen when he merely runs faster, so it may be a distinct magical action, rather than a physical enhancement. It can't be a basic lashing for three reasons: Kaladin doesn't know how to do basic lashing at that point basic lashing is not accompanied by the release of stormlight that accompnies these events He walks around normally afterwards, not weightlessly as he would if he had half-lashed himself upward. Can you please direct me to the quote that specifically says that the Windrunner special ability is wind-guided fighting? Does he specifically say that it is not pressure-related? I was not aware of that.

I seem to be making a habit of agreeing with your theses, but quibbling with some details. Szeth has to crack open Gavilar's armor to get to them. He can't draw the stormlight through or lash Shardplate. I disagree with this one.

I think Kaladin has gone past the choice point on vengeance vs protection by choosing to be fundamentally protective. While he will almost certainly have some vengeful feelings, as long as vengeance is not his primary motivation, it seems like it would not threaten the bond. He seems introspective enough to know why he would be proscecuting Amaram, and he has Syl to remind him also. I think he will be more attentive to her warnings after the events of WoR. From Chapter 84:

This is an interestingattempt to predict the structure of abilities. However, I believe we've already seen a multiplicity of powers that don't fit in this framework. Kaladin: Amplifying his voice to yell to Adolin in the Tower battle seems like an application of pressure that is not one of the three lashings. On several occasions Kaladin has used stormlight to land safely after falling from great heights (when hiding the armor under the bridge in tWoK, for example) This seems like an application of pressure, but is not one of the three named lashings from the Ars Arcanum. Kaladin uses the "winds" to guide him in the six Shardbearer duel and the final battle with Szeth. This could be another application of the pressure surge. These abilities can't really be called lashings, which may be why the author of the Ars Arcanum may not have found out about them. Alternatively, the Ars Arcanum author has the same original sources of information as Szeth, which may be why neither is apparently aware of the additional Windrunner capabilities. Szeth seems to have been well trained in the use of the lashings, but not as capable as Kaladin (the above, healing shard-severed limbs, squires, windrunning(?)). Whether he is limited by his training or the way he acquired his abilities is not clear to me.

@Moogle - While I agree with the basic point you are making, I believe the application will be more nuanced than your summary, as shown below. Szeth says hi. I also think Kaladin will be quite amenable to bearing witness at the trial of Amaram. Syl will have no problem with it as long as his intent is largely protective and not personally vengeful.

Interesting discussion! A few minor points on the Ghostbloods and Diagramists. The Ghostbloods: The Ghostbloods analyze things from the hunter-prey paradigm. It is a reductionist view. It will work well in certain situations and not in others. As they are so locked into the paradigm, they will not see how it fails them. The Ghostbloods don't follow their own paradigm internally. The members look out for each other. They cooperate with each other to hunt everybody else. It is philosophically inconsistent, but likely very effective. The Ghostbloods, philosophically, should have a problem when it is best for the whole organization to cooperate with outsiders. They are liable to hunt those they should cooperate with and re-enact the tragedy of the commons. Many of the flaws of Mr. T's approach are evident: GIGO, insanity, inflexibility, methods and goal: GIGO: Garbage In, Garbage Out means that his plans are limited by the quality of the information he starts with and acquires along the way. Insanity: On one of his smarter days, he thought only allowing smart people to breed was a really good plan. That is not intelligence. 'Nuff said. Inflexibility: They are implementing a plan they don't really understand. At a micro level, this fails due to the need to interpret. Graves experienced this when he thought separating Kaladin from Dalinar would allow the assassination of Dalinar to occur. They pushed Kaladin to become able to eliminate the distance. At a macro level, when the accumulated errors and evolution of events make significant parts of the Diagram invalid, there is no way to correct it. For example, if it were to become better for Mr. T to not become king of everything, he would never know it. Methods: A ruthless centralized administration is not necessarily most effective at problem solving. When the solution is clearly in sight, they can be effective. When the solution is not known, a set of divergent efforts can find a solution that the centralized administration can miss. Goal: To preserve humanity is his prime directive. It sounds good, but is it really? What if it is better to allow humanity to risk annihilation to allow a possibility of a better existence? Is a humanity possessed by agents of Odium like the stormform parshendi better than taking on some risk of annihilation and the possibility of humans with free will?

1. Fundamental to law is jurisdiction. Assassinating Gavilar was certainly illegal according to the laws of Alethkar, which would have jurisdiction in Alethkar. . Further, Nalan knows as well as anyone that Szeth's punishment is unjust. Szeth was named truthless for asserting the possibility of voidbringers, Radiants and/or Heralds. Nalan is a Herald. In the prelude to the Stormlight Archive, Kalak and Jezrien have the following conversation: The Heralds are clearly aware that if Taln breaks or Odium finds a way around the restrictions of the Oathpact, voidbringers could return. Nalan himself is engaged in hunting down proto-Radiants under false pretenses, so he is clearly aware that Radiants can return. In Wor, it is clear that Nalan knows the crime that Szeth is named Truthless for. 2. Your opening post makes the point that he is really trying to exterminate surgebinders. He claims to be enforcing the laws of Azir regarding theft and trespass. False pretenses, ulterior motive: QED. The Azish head minister is astonished that the sentence is death. Exaggerated punishment: QED. That Nalan got the paperwork done is likely due to intimidation, bribery or forgery, also certainly illegal in Azir, but which I obviously can't prove. 3. Are you actually asserting that capital punishment without formal process as Nalan performed it on Ym in Iri is legal according to the laws of Iri? I find this incredible. Nalan somehow figured out that Lift would attempt to break into the Palace, so he did the paperwork. He didn't need to do that to catch Ym and commit illegal murder, so he didn't.

If Nalan knew what Szeth was doing from the beginning and could have stopped him, then he is basically an accomplice to all of the slaughter. Nalan's persecution of the surgebinders is about finding a false pretense to enact an exaggerated punishment to fit an ulterior motive. What is his real motive for aiming Szeth at the Shamanate? Could it be getting the Honorblades back? I sincerely doubt that it is legal to execute someone without arrest or a trial in Iri. So Nalan does not seem really concerned about what is legal when going after Ym. This is why he seems at least insane, if not corrupted, to me.

It is a great quote, but it is also supremely ironic. In his debate in the epigraphs of the two books with the "old reptile" he shows that he himself is "Doing things he finds very important."

It seems fascinating to consider what will happen politically in Alethkar and Urithiru after the events of WoR. In fact, the developments in Sadeas' highprincedom alone will be amazing. In the wake of Sadeas's death, I imagine people will think twice about opposing Dalinar. Whether Adolin's actions are discovered or not, Dalinar and Elhokar are likely to be leading a unified Alethi contingent of highprinces. Aladar is now working with Dalinar. Ruthar is largely de-Sharded. Sadeas is dead. Amaram may be tried for murder and killed, but I doubt it will go smoothly. Can he make a bid for Sadeas' province in the wake of Sadeas' death? Kaladin is likely to be a hero in Sadeas' home province very soon. While I doubt he wants to be a highprince, I could imagine him taking the position temporarily to protect people from the likes of Amaram. This is after the end of nations. People will just be struggling to survive the Voidbringers and the Everstorm. Nahn, dahn, lighteyes, darkeyes, Alethi, Veden and Azish may all cease to matter. Presumably Kaladin organizes the defenses of Hearthstone and then moves to the capital with a plan to protect people. Unless Jasnah shows up, he will be the de facto leadership of Alethkar until the Oathgate is opened. Kaladin is no longer taking orders from Dalinar. While he obviously respects Dalinar, he will do what he thinks is right. He doesn't seem to have any interest in organizing the activities of the other Radiants either. If Shallan tells Kaladin about the phonetic glyph trick that Amaram uses and Navani gives him half of one of those fabrial pens, Kaladin could maintain communications with Urithiru. He could also use scribes and other pens that have their mates in Urithiru, but it might be awkward to set up. I guess Dalinar and Shallan will be deciding what is done by the people at Urithiru. Their goals will presumably be to find other proto-Radiants, unlock the Oathgates and organize defenses against the Voidbringers. What do people think?

There are lots of unexplained lines. The surges can be explained by only the lines between surges and orders. There are also: Lines between adjacent surges. Lines between adjacent orders. Lines between opposite orders. Lines between orders 1 and 4, 6 and 9. {wild speculation} The lines all represent abilities. 1. could be the special abilities for each order. For example, the line between gravity and pressure might represent stormriding if that is the windrunner special ability. 2, 3 and 4 could be abilities that the two orders have when working together. {/wild speculation}

{wild speculation} If the Nightwatcher does the "old magic", then there must be "newer magic". Barring modern fabrials, I am not aware of any magic newer than the Nightwatcher other than surgebinding. Modern fabrials are not considered magic and the "old magic" designation seems to predate their development. If the Nightwatcher was set up by Cultivation soon after Honor and Cultivation came to Roshar, then Radiant surgebinding is the "new magic." {/wild speculation} I assume that the Heralds' surgebinding is as old as the "old magic," but I can't prove it offhand.

Great discussion on an interesting subject. Here's what I think I know (I can look up quotes if needed): Brandon has said that the spren we are seeing (in tWoK) are of Honor, Cultivation or both. Spren are living ideas, according to Jasnah and Shallan's discussion. Spren are investiture, some of which have attained sentience. Splinters are quantities of investiture (larger?) that have attained sentience. There are spren that are splinters of Adonalsium on Roshar. The listeners are referred to as the ancient ones. Here are some beliefs that I have: The human mythology about coming from off-world (Tranquilline Halls) is somewhat true. Humans were brought by Honor and Cultivation at more or less the time they came to Roshar. Wild speculation: The listeners and their pre-H+C spren had a certain consciousness together. When H+C's investiture came along, more sentient spren developed based on that investiture that were connected to them and their intent. These sentient spren were the ones that formed the Nahel bonds with the people that H+C brought. The humans are more cognitively strong independantly of spren, but are not as connected to Shadesmar, so they can offer the Nahel bond spren more cognition when they come more into the physical. Here is a conversation between Shallan and Pattern from Ch 24: Hoping this seems relevant. Edit: added quote

I think Cryptics are particularly attracted to creativity when choosing people to bond. I imagine the mixture of truth and lies in a creative enterprise fascinates them. So unless drunkenness equals creativity, I don't see evidence for Elhokar being attractive for Cryptics to bond. Further questions: Why are they hanging around him? Do they just want to know what is happening around him? Are they choosing to be seen or does he have a special ability to see them? Are they leaving when Kaladin is around or just choosing not to be seen (I know Pattern can't make himself invisible, but I think that is because he is more in the physical)?

Welcome! Have an introductory upvote. Given that the Stormfather refers to him as reigning, it seems likely. In WOR, Wit mentions that the father of Hatred will dismember his soul if Wit lets himself get caught. The letters in the epigraphs in both books refer to him as an active entity that is a threat to other Shards. There is WoB that splintering is an arduous process, but I doubt Odium would do it if it meant suicide or powerlessness. Given the evidence in favor, I see no reason to doubt his intactness. The Broken One name is puzzling, but since "One" is part of the name, it doesn't seem like it should refer to a post splintered set of entities.

What about Shallan's band of former deserters? She seems to really have them believing in her "lies". Gaz as a Radiant squire would be amazing.

I endorse what Spark said below Aaaaand there is supposedly a story arc that will complete with book 5. Brandon says he particularly doesn't mind killing off his characters once they have resolved their issues (although he reserves the right to do so earlier). The story resolution will probably resolve issues for many of the characters and have boss fights, so it seems logical that characters will die off then.

Kaladin seems a frontrunner for Honor's champion. Jasnah and Shallan also seem possible, although I think their spren are more associated with Cultivation. Speaking of which, does Cultivation get a champion? I like the names mentioned above, including Lift. I can imagine Szeth becoming a Champion for either side. As for Odium's champion, Nalan seems possible. Odium's champions should hate Odium and themselves. So clearly Renarin will be Honor's champion. WOR Spoiler Edit: added Renarin

It was fantastic! I could go on and on, but I just realized one of the ways that Brandon totally trolled us. He told us he could still do a viewpoint book after a character died. I thought it would probably suck, but tried to keep an open mind. He could still have a character really die and have flashbacks, of course. But noooo, Szeth dies in WOR and will be the viewpoint character in Stones Unhallowed. Trolled!