kari-no-sugata

I must say that having an eBook is nice. Can read it on computer, on laptop, on tablet, on phone. I'll sometimes read a chapter or two while travelling. I can also make notes and they sync between my devices. Only downside is I don't have a water resistant device to read eBooks on so can't read them in the bath... Good excuse to get both

For fun, here's a hi-res rendering: Full size: http://i.imgur.com/1SEtWpw.jpg I downloaded povray and figured out how to render a larger version from the povray script here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Julia_set_3d_slice_animation.ogg

Given that Nale/whatever clearly has a few screws loose I find it really hard to take anything he says literally. On a related note, I have a relevant post here: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/8022-how-did-the-recreance-happen/page-2#entry136617 Where I basically suggest that by "Desolation" Nale/whatever doesn't mean The Desolation but a home-grown equivalent that is similarly destructive (because Radiants were fighting humans). Even Szeth is referred to as being like a Desolation in the same chapter! Now that a real Desolation has come along with Voidbringers, I wonder what Nale will do now? Try to arrest the Voidbringers?

It's universally agreed that the Voidbringers were not seen after the "Last Desolation" - it would certainly be noticed if the Heralds had lied. There was a big time gap between the "Last Desolation" and the Recreance so seems rather unlikely that few hundred years later they suddenly find out that things need to be "balanced" and then not explain anything either. I also think it's worth bearing in mind what would work well from a storytelling point of view. For a lot of suggested ideas there's going to be no real way to confirm them (to the main characters) unless the Stormfather decides to suddenly become useful and spends a few pages info-dumping. Rather boring.

Poor spren, seems they're first to be fingered if anything goes wrong More seriously, if the spren were the problem then I don't see why the Radiants would keep quiet about it. Ditto for any other external problem.

This feels almost identical to my own theory, except I didn't sketch out the background so much: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/8022-how-did-the-recreance-happen/#entry136072 I'm still trying to figure out when the Recreance was. It's at least several generations (ie 75+ years) since the "Last Desolation" - in tWoK when Jasnah has Shallan send the picture via spanreed she says it's from a source written several generations after the "Last Desolation" and before the Recreance. I wonder if the whole period from the "Last Desolation" to the Recreance is the Silver Kingdoms Epoch but I'm not that sure. Anyway, it might be several hundred years else the "Last Desolation" and Recreance would be most closely tied together, historically. I was re-reading part of tWoK last night and there's a point where Jasnah says that Urithru was abandoned before the Recreance. This certainly fits in with the theme of the Radiants slowly decaying. Also suggests that we won't find any records there on the Recreance. Brandon also tends to like mysteries that are simple and "obvious" in retrospect (and also doesn't like repeating himself). The idea that the Radiants themselves are fallible also follows the general theme of the series of "the enemy within". I also have another idea about our friend Darkness/Nalan/etc when he says that the Radiants returning would bring another Desolation. We know this guy would have been around during the Recreance and if Radiants started fighting one another it would basically be like a Desolation. Given that he's not really sane anymore, I don't think we should take what he says too literally - but if he means that the Radiants themselves would be like a Desolation by fighting each other then we don't need any convoluted theories about how Radiants can somehow cause the Voidbringers to return. I do agree we need to come up with a solid enough reason for all Radiants to kill their spren and take part. I'm pretty sure if Radiants were fighting each other, most would hate it and want it to end but be struggling to come up with a solution. If 95%+ can agree then the remaining ones can be forced (or killed). I also suspect a Herald or two might have had a hand in this - might have "officially" shown up and told the Radiant leaders what to do.

Hmm. I think I might have just cracked it - a really simple solution that doesn't require any assumptions. I'll try to explain it with a Q/A format: Q: What was the Radiants' goal in the Recreance? A: To permanently end the existence of the Radiants by deliberately betraying the spren. Q: Why in Damnation would they want to do that? A: Because the Radiants were now the biggest threat left to mankind - the Voidbringers had been defeated. The Radiants had no enemies left except themselves. Q: How can the Radiants be a threat - don't their Oaths and spren guides make them safe? A: Nobody is perfect. We see in Dalinar's flashback with Nohadon that Radiants can start wars or similar - some Surgerbinder called Alakavish. Radiants can be lied to and manipulated. Q: Didn't Nohadon do something to make Radiants safer? A: Possibly, but we don't know if he could somehow change the underlying nature of the Nahel bond and Surgebinders. Even then, no system is foolproof - particularly if the assumptions underlying the system end (eg that Desolations will keep on happening). Honor himself said that Odium realised that mankind will turn against itself if left alone. Q: So how could the Radiants turn against mankind without betraying their Oaths? A: Imagine a small country with a big neighbour and that the king of the big country is not a Radiant. Nothing would prevent the king of the big country using conventional troops to invade the small country in an act of greed (while lying and manipulating things to keep his Radiants from stopping it). There would be Radiants in the small country - they would be aghast and motivated to stop the invasion, by force if necessary. We've seen how deadly a single Shardbearer can be on the battlefield against normal troops - imagine what a Surgebinder could do. We know from Adolin's case with Sadeas that not all Radiants view things the same way. Just a few Radiants of the more aggressive Orders could have a huge impact. Next, the king of the big country lies and manipulates Radiants from his country and some decide to help. We now have Radiants fighting Radiants without either breaking their Oaths. Q: Even if that happened, how could the Radiants deliberately murder their own spren? A: Better for some "living ideas" to die than humans. Radiants swear to protect humans not everything - else they wouldn't even be able to eat plants let alone animals. Their spren might be their best friend in some cases but few would want to be in a situation where they have to kill humans. Q: Some Radiants skills are poorly suited for the battlefield so why do all Orders disband? A: If the biggest threat to mankind is the Radiants themselves then they have to ensure that there'll never be Radiants again, of any order. The more the spren see it as a universal betrayal the less likely they are to ever trust humans again. Q: So how do you think the Recreance itself began? A: Once things escalate to a high enough level even the Radiants themselves would begin to question their existence. Most are enlightened to some degree so if no better solution can be found then the only solution remaining is universal disbanding. If all sides can basically agree to disband on the same day then that ensures no one group can take advantage. Q: Isn't it a bad idea to leave the Blades and Plate behind? A: I suspect the Radiants didn't anticipate that normal humans would be able to figure out how to make decent use of the Blades and Plate long term - the method of attaching a gem to the pommel of a Blade was discovered some decades after the Recreance. Something similar might have occurred with Plate. The Radiants might have mistakenly assumed that it would be more of a short term problem. Either way, nobody would be able to make new Blades and Plate. They probably had to make a very clear and blunt demonstration of their disbanding for all to see. Q: Shouldn't they have at least explained this all though? A: It's actually better if the humans revile the Radiants too, in this scenario - gives the humans no reason to want the Radiants back. Q: What prevents this all from happening again? A: Nothing.

I've got no real idea on this. I've thought about it but struggled to think of any real theories. I've got a much simpler question though: do we have any idea when the Recreance was? I remember there being a comment in tWoK that the War of Loss and end of the Hierocracy was 500 years ago or so but no idea on the Recreance. PS I wouldn't be surprised if one or more Heralds was involved in the Recreance

Would be fun to see what Shallan can do with sound and if she can enhance her singing to have interesting effects. Would make her more like a bard (and Hoid)

I think the simplest solution to the problem is that there's actually another "active" part: the holder for the spanreed acts as the frame of reference and all actions are relative to it. Otherwise, all spanreed boards would have to be orientated exactly the same even if they're very close by. Or is there some indication that all spanreed boards do in fact need to be aligned in the same way?

I've had other thoughts on this on the past but now I think the Squires will be quite basic. They won't be "Radiants lite" but more like super-grunts Consider Bridge 4 - they're already squires. But they have very distinct personalities. It would seem odd to me that they all start picking up the same personality-specific trait. Or Shallan's soldiers - they seem like a dead cert to become her Squires but would be bit weird if they all start showing super memory traits. Just seems like a poor fit somehow. Of course, this might depend on where the "passives" come from. If it doesn't come from the Nahel bond but is combination of Stormlight + personality (or whatever they focus on in training) then I could see the Squires getting the "passives" (though weaker) for their particular personality rather than who they're a Squire to. We've seen than Stormlight is transferable so Squires being able to use just enough Stormlight to glow doesn't require some whole new magic system. However, Surges specifically require spren so unless the Squires each have a spren then I don't see them using Surges. I think Squires will be cool enough even if "all" they get is Stormlight. They'll be like an army of Pewterarms (from Mistborn).

Currently, I expect Squires to only get access to Stormlight for enhanced strength, healing, etc that all Radiants get. I don't expect them to get any access to Surges. I guess we'll find out later exactly how it works but I don't see how the Squires could get access to Surges without a Nahel bond.

Thanks I just had to write that down as soon as I could... Elsecallers seemed to masters of Shadesmar at least. Might well be best at Transformation Surge. We don't have any real idea where Shardplate comes from (and for scene idea above I was expecting Shallan to borrow it). I don't know when we might see new sets get made but it might be a while unless it's relatively easy when you know how (which I suspect not). I hope to see Shallan apprentice to Navani in the next book and see her learn about fabrials and try to investigate Shardplate. I can easily see Shallan wanting to wear Shardplate as a test - and asking Adolin for his set and teasing him the whole time.

Mmm. I just had fun idea for a scene: Shallan is meeting up with Mraize. Things have been getting increasingly tense between them. Jasnah has returned. Mraize bluntly threatens Shallan's brothers to make Shallan betray Jasnah. Shallan quietly responds "No" - Shallan really respects Jasnah yet betrayed her once before and is very unlikely to ever want to betray Jasnah again. Tension fills the air. Shallan is in the Ghostbloods' lair and is surrounded by enemies, alone. Harmless. Someone tries to poison her with a dart/arrow. It bounces off! Shallan is wearing full Shardplate but disguised herself to look like she's wearing her normal clothes

Just a quick comment on this: I think Shallan will figure out how Jasnah could have survived before it's actually confirmed. After all, Shallan did do some smart thinking to figure out that Jasnah is a true Soulcaster at the end of tWoK - I think Shallan hasn't figured out how yet because she doesn't want to think about Jasnah's death too much, she's been really busy and it's only by the end of WoR that she has all the info required to figure it out. Namely: That Jasnah could have survived being stabbed through the heart. Shallan had no idea until part 4 (after dropping into the chasms) that her healing abilities are so strong. She even comments to Dalinar in part 5 that she could probably survive being stabbed with a spear. That Jasnah is an Elsecaller and that the Transportation Surge could allow her to escape. Shallan knows that she and Jasnah share the Transformation Surge but Jasnah never says what her other Surge is. Shallan should be able to figure this after reading the in-world Words of Radiance book, though if she has already we haven't seen it. That it wasn't the assassins who moved Jasnah's body. At the time, Shallan thinks that the reason why she didn't trip over Jasnah's body in the cabin is that the assassins took the body with them (it's the only logical thing she could think at the time). However, if she thinks through 1 and 2 above she may decide to question Pattern (who she's sent to go investigate) as to whether he saw Jasnah's body. Strictly speaking she might not need confirmation about this but it would help. However, even if Shallan realises all this she'd then have to question why Jasnah hasn't returned yet - Shallan might well doubt her own analysis.

Here's an interesting thought (Just one possibility among many): Jasnah could find herself jealous of Shallan when they meet again. Jasnah has found herself in a rather lonely position in her brilliance, as her father rather bluntly told her. Meanwhile, Shallan is doing impressive stuff and is likely to do a lot more - and things like saving the army is likely to be a lot more popular than writing some books or declaring yourself an atheist. It's an intriguing possibility... though if it does happen I'd then be expecting things to all go horrible wrong for Shallan I'm pretty sure Shallan would prefer not to join the Ghostbloods. She wasn't wanting to - just wanted to try to get some information out of them to help save the world. She didn't want to be found out by them. She doesn't like how they operate either. She was all ready to chop up Mraize for even slightly threatening her brothers but since they're now in his hands effectively, she's not in a position to refuse (from her point of view). I doubt that Mraize will lean on her too much initially but will slowly turn the screws. I also doubt he'll just simply delivery Shallan's brothers to her unless he's absolutely convinced that she is committed. I could easily see Shallan being publicly lauded more and more but inside she's becoming more and more conflicted. Will she have to sacrifice her brothers for the "greater good"?

We don't know for sure who "started" it but unless Jasnah is lying when she says she doesn't know much about them I don't see why she would "assassinate" someone she doesn't know much about. What Mraize says implies that Jasnah started it but doesn't actually state it - if we just consider it as is then he might have been lying by omission (something Shallan's done quite a bit of). If Jasnah did start it then I suspect it was more by accident - she could have had someone assassinated for other reasons who happened to be with the Ghostbloods. It's possible that the Ghostbloods were quite a lot more interested in Jasnah's work than they wanted to let on to someone outside of the group - they certainly seemed to want both her work and her life. They might have worried about expressing too much interest in Jasnah's work to keep Tyn and her associates from taking too much of an interest in it, for example. They certainly should have been very interested in her work.

There's not much we have to go on, unfortunately. If I was to hazard a guess, Jasnah did not know about the Ghostbloods until the first time they tried to kill her - she survives and so starts to investigate them. So why did they attack her in the first place? Probably because they see her as competition and whatever they want they want it for themselves. So what do the Ghostbloods want? I have no real idea. The Ghostbloods seem to have a "hunt or be hunted" attitude that's pretty close to the Philosophy of Starkness briefly mentioned in tWoK ("kill or be killed"). They don't seem like a nice bunch. They also seem to have multiple worldhoppers among their ranks which makes me think that the founder and many of the top-level members are worldhoppers too. They may be some kinda pan-Cosmere tomb raiders or maybe they do have some kind of specific end-goal in mind.

I certainly expect Jasnah and Shallan to meet sooner or later and there's certainly various possibilities for tension between them but it's possible it might not happen until near the end of the book. Last we see Jasnah in WoR one of the things she says is: "If it's not happening as it did before, then everything I know could be false. The words of the highspren could be inaccurate. The records I seek could be meaningless." Before this scene Jasnah was hoping to find records in Urithru but that may not necessarily be the case now. For example, what if she learned (among other things) from the Highspren that the Shin have detailed records on ancient history? We don't know for sure whether Jasnah will aim to get those records still or not but from a story telling point of view it would certainly be quite interesting for Jasnah to head to Shinovar Though even if that happens, Jasnah and Shallan could meet before then: we have no idea where on Roshar Jasnah is but if she's in the east and wants to get to Shinovar the smartest choice may be to go to the Shattered Plains, use the Oathgate there and try to open a gate to the Oathgate nearest to Shinovar (from inside Urithru). We don't know whether that's possible or not though. I have this separate idea of some crisis developing in Urithru late in book 3 (maybe Amaram tries to take control for example) while there's still only one Oathgate open - if someone can lock the Stormseat one then those in Urithru are a bit screwed. Just when it seems hopeless Jasnah figures out how to open an Oathgate from outside Urithru and comes in to save the day and that's how Shallan and Jasnah meet again.

It was definitely a long post (took long time to write) but I hope you're being a bit sarcastic here I had a couple of motivations for writing it. At a basic level I'm just interested in how other people see the scene and learning something new. I would also like to encourage others to write "deep dive" analysis on scenes they find interesting. And to some degree I've just had this analysis in my mind for a while and wanted to write it down and release it. I didn't make too big a deal about it but I suspect that this is foreshadowing too: we don't see Shallan's slaves much in the rest of the book and though we get a few thoughts from Shallan we don't get much info/perspective from her on slaves, so there's not an obvious strong need for this scene. I'm not saying it's unnecessary but I think the payoff will be in the next book: Dalinar needs to unify people and the current Vorin culture needs serious reform. If we see Shallan suggest abolishing slavery then we should not be too surprised and can point to this scene.

It took me a few minutes to recover after reading it for the first time My basic reaction was "OMG! Hoid got glomped!" The thing that got me on re-reading is that it's from Kaladin's point of view and he's practically expecting Shallan to be an assassin - when she "lunges" at Wit he goes for his boot knife (to defend Wit!?)

It certainly helps Shallan be effective in a crisis situation: in the chasm scene there's a part (from Kaladin's point of view) where she leads the chasmfiend back to the corpses from the bridge drop - I'm pretty sure she was in "coldness of clarity" there since she suddenly becomes very decisive and her language becomes terse. One reason why I worry (and why I raised Taravingian) is it feels like she loses her empathy - I worry she might do something she'll regret. I also worry she might rely upon it rather than taking smarter pre-emptive action in advance, before the situation develops into a full-blown crisis. In the case of the chasmfiend that wouldn't apply (because it was so sudden and couldn't be pre-empted) but it might for future situations. It's a cool and interesting side to her character... but I still worry

There's a particular scene in WoR that I don't remember getting much discussion, but I've found myself pondering it for quite a while. This scene is from chapter 21, towards the end with Shallan and Tvlakv talking: Some thoughts: I would guess that the law would side with Tvlakv - she's basically dictating terms. It could be argued that she's subtly threatening him by mentioning "her" soldiers. I would say that Shallan is abusing her status as a lighteyed too, by telling him to go complain to the king if he doesn't like it - she knows he's worried about his debts and would probably not want to create unnecessary risks by taking on a lighteyed. Shallan really does not like slavers ("men like you") It could also be argued that Shallan is being unfair since he sort-of saved her life simply by being there at the seashore. The above is not typical behaviour for Shallan. So... why does Shallan do this? Here's a few more lines: The wrong way, I think, to interpret this is she wanted some slaves for herself so decided to steal some. The critical indicator is she says that "you may run if you wish" - she would not say that if she truly needed slaves and was willing to steal to get some. I think Shallan is lying when she says she needs servants - this is a bit complicated but I think she wants them to feel that should they decide to stay they would be welcomed. I don't remember any actual indication that Shallan needed servants later. The first line indicates her real motivation - she felt sorry for them and decided to do something to help their situation. I have no proof but her actions feel somewhat pre-meditated to me The last line is subtly interesting too. One firemark is a week's wages for a sailor (according to Yalb) and due to the danger and skill required, sailors would normally be paid very well (based on Earth history at least). Yalb is also not a slave, who are paid worse. So, the cost to Shallan may be somewhere around 10-30x what a non-slave unskilled servant might get! (This is a rough estimate - corrections welcome) Shallan is certainly not doing this for her own financial benefit. To follow up from the last point, there is this paragraph from chapter 24: I would say that this is why Shallan didn't simply just free them out-right: these people had probably been slaves for a very long time, possibly since they were born. They aren't used to freedom so I think Shallan is trying to more gently free them in a way that is less of a shock - and gave them the option to run if they felt ready. It could be argued that Shallan should have simply bought the slaves if freeing them was her real objective, rather than steal them (journey before destination and all that). She does, after all, pay Tvlakv for a wagon immediately afterwards. My best guess is that Shallan probably had a rough idea of what the going price of a slave would be (having worked on the finances of her house, which did employ slaves) and with her limited finances felt there was a high risk she wouldn't be able to afford it - she really wanted to succeed so decided to go aggressive. So why was she so motivated? Because she identified with the slaves - as a child "Freedom was as valuable as an emerald broam to Shallan, and as rare as a larkin" (chapter 45). Also, see this quote from chapter 75: Note the "locked away" bit - that's what she really fears. From our 21st century point of view, slavery is terrible and condoning it in the slightest is reprehensible. In-world on Roshar, however, is completely different and personally I think Shallan is quite enlightened in this regard, though some of her specific actions are certainly questionable. If she ever carries her feelings to their natural conclusion then I would expect to see her push for the abolition of slavery (or at least strongly side with someone who proposes it) - and given her connections to Dalinar (who also has to unite mankind) it could be achieved. (sorry to ramble but I hope this is all interesting food for thought)

P: Welcome in... please take a seat. P: Now then... tell me about your mother... S: I loved her. I killed her when she tried to kill me. P: Mmm... now tell me about your father... S: I loved him. I killed him when he started killing the family. P: So fascinating! Mmm. Tell my about Tyn. S: I liked her. I killed her when she tried to kill me. P: Mmm... a pattern. Mmm... tell me about Adolin... S: I like him. A lot, I think... P: Mmm... The next day Adolin finds a note saying "Never take off your Shardplate and keep a supply of jam in case of emergencies" - but unfortunately he can't read. -- The End -- Sigh... I like Shallan a lot as a character but it's so easy to show her in a bad light. The part of her I find most disconcerting is her "coldness of clarity" state. She's had it since she killed her mother at least and maybe before. I wonder if there's any relation between that and the kind of trance she goes into while focused on drawing - it's interesting to note that she finds it easier to think then. This "coldness of clarity" state reminds me a bit of Taravingian's intelligence/empathy tradeoff problem and I really hope that Shallan works to avoid it. Anyone got some diagnosis of "coldness of clarity" Shallan?

Here's another "suspicious" scene, from chapter 60: We see from Shallan's flashbacks that she has frequent mental shutdowns (several times a day early on). I think the above is one too but it's quite curious that she specifically "blinks". It's like she just removed Pattern's comments from her mind (she carries on as if he'd never spoken). I would be very interesting to know how much time passed in that "..." line. This. Not how I would phrase it but this is how I see members of the Lightweavers growing. It's also internal and individual, which is why there's no fixed number of "Words" for them. Shallan gains in self-confidence during WoR but she still needs to work on self-awareness and self-respect. Random thought: two Orders of the KR have "Regrowth", aiding the healing of physical injuries. Given the horrors of Desolations it also makes sense for there to be KR who can help the healing of mental injuries, though this would be more subtle. Shallan has already done some things along these lines.