kari-no-sugata

Well, you did say "instructions for killing" in the same line, so I thought that's what you were getting at. But yes, you could imagine general purpose instructions and orders being written for warriors in a generic society but the Shin seem to have pretty simple lives and no armies - for the Shin warriors, there's a very flat command structure in that they simply have to obey the person who owns their Oathstone. Verbal instructions seem simplest and best way. Shrug... I dunno... there's no way I can disprove this but it just feels more natural and has better potential story-wise if this "warriors script" is some ancient leftover rather than a more modern development for bureaucracy's sake.

I dont remember being in a real tropical storm but I do remember a crazy sudden downpour we had a few years ago - was around noon in middle of summer and it just suddenly started raining REALLY crazy hard. Like, you could see about 20m and all the cars etc had to slow down to like 5mph else they'd crash and there was instant flash floods. Never seen anything like it before or since.

Thanks. Some searching helped me narrow things down. There is a reference to Tarah on p874 and p880. Maybe the slave I was thinking of was Nalma (p770) though there seems to be no indication of that person's gender.

There does seem to be a protocol for lighteyes dealing with servants which Shallan seems to observe and respect. She also seems to respect those who who perform their duty well. She doesn't seem to consider that all darkeyes are automatically servants - I can't think of any line that gives such an impression. I dont know what she would do in your hypothetical example - she might just wander around looking for a master-servant rather than ask random darkeyes. It's entirely possible her adventurous tongue could get her into trouble, but I dont think that's what you're suggesting here. We dont see her dealing with darkeyes much but consider this quote from page 67: Though she finds this flirtation uncomfortable, this passage suggests she didn't do anything to object to it - even though she wasn't used to it at all. If she excepted all darkeyes to kowtow to her every wish she would have ordered them to stop, surely. She seemed to have spent 6 months on a ship of semi-pagan darkeyed sailors she'd never met before and got along fine with them - they seemed to like her. On the other hand, she didn't deal with the book merchant very nicely - though she was frustrated with his tone and her meeting with Jasnah so shouldn't consider this to be her default behaviour. Also notice that she regrets her attitude immediately. Shallan is certainly not "enlightened" though. But I think she's better than you suggest. If there's one guy at the Shattered Plains who would react badly to being treated like a generic servant by a snooty lighteyes it would be Kaladin - despite Dalinar, I'm pretty sure he still has his general disdain for lighteyes. They're pretty much guaranteed to meet: will Shallan help Kaladin get out his prejudices or entrench them? I suspect sparks may fly either way

Just a bit But yeah, there was Laral (daughter of local lord) who ended up marrying (we presume) the replacement lord (fat, middle-aged near cripple)... and some woman from his slave days though I can't seem to find the reference (was very brief and vague though I think) but it seems she died in a failed escape attempt or something. With everything that he's been through, I tend to imagine Kaladin having a mental age of 40 Seems bridge crew are allowed (or at least not banned): Page 215: The crew would like that; they could spend payday losing their spheres on gambling or whores, perhaps forgetting for a short time the miserable lives they lived. But yeah, all his time/energy/money was going on mere survival.... and I doubt whores would have given him any solace. Hmm, Tinkerbell moment huh. Rather hard to imagine. Though on a related note, imagine Kaladin having some romance while having Syl looking over his shoulder...

Yep. This would imply that it's relatively common enough for Shin to use their warrior-slaves to assassinate each other. Common enough that a "warriors script" would have been invented if it didn't already exist. The Shin really do seem to be anti-violence so this strikes me as quite odd. Of course, we dont know what the warriors do on a day-to-day basis - I dont think being escorts for farmers would be common enough. I guess they get involved with protecting/controlling the borders at least. Er, what? For what it's worth, I'm British (mostly) and male. You may be reading too much into my chosen handle.

Hmm... I know very little about the Amish, even with a quick bit of research, but it seems like they could be a reasonable counter-example. Anyone else care to comment?

When bankruptcy hits, one would imagine the creditors taking any and all assets they could get, stripping the estates bare and anything they legally owned. That would have a big effect on the local economy even if the new owners were nice and friendly - instead I'd imagine them raising taxes and doing everything else to squeeze money out of the place. The situation seems quite similar to Wax's (from The Alloy of Law) in many ways, though I dont remember the side effects on those outside the immediate family were explicitly laid out in Shallan's case. There's not much detail in the books about House Davar - according to Nan Balat's interlude, it's in south western Jah Keved, near the Horneater Peaks (with her solid red hair, I suspect Rock will take a shine to Shallan, presuming they meet). There's also a comment about the house being ancient, but not much more than that. There's only one real quote I could find about what could happen, from page 72: On page 113, Shallan describes her family's estates as "isolated, backcountry". There's a suggestion that marble had been mined in the past when it says her father had fabricated new ones. Apart from that, no indication that I remember that they were anything other than generic minor landowners.

I presume you're responding to my post talking about her personality. However, I'd like to direct your attention to these words: "I do wonder how we're supposed to react to her as readers" That is, I'm not really sure how the author intended us to see her. Kaladin and Dalinar aren't easy to describe in a few words or to pigeon-hole either, but for all their complexity they dont seem particularly difficult to interpret. Well, it's kinda my problem - bit hard to explain really. I think I mostly get her but some things seem a bit off. btw, going to your points above: I disagree with you on point 3. You're basically saying she's spoilt, right (or something similar)? It's not like she was doted on (as best as I can tell) but more like "bird in a gilded cage" - very much trapped by her father's arbitrary ideal of a perfect daughter. More like a prisoner to his expectations, hidden away. She seems to have accepted that but also secretly went against him in some small ways. Remember that all her tutors left after a few months citing her father's temper - which is why she had to teach herself a lot of things. She seems quite industrious and does all sorts of studying in her free time. Also, to give a specific counter: early on (page 133) Yalb tells Shallan to try a third time (with Jasnah) - instead of fainting or castigating him for telling her what to do, she counters with probability theory.

Yes, but the people actually working in the fields are generally at or near the bottom in terms of importance. Can you think of any Earth culture where farmers out-ranked warriors? Now, I realise the Shin are considered "odd" by everyone else. But I still find it especially odd for farmers in general to be privileged in a society in which they should also be the biggest group - it's not like it's hard to become a farmer. So why doesn't everyone want to become a privileged farmer? Let me put it another way: I fail to see how farmers can continue to be privileged in a rural society unless there is some additional way to differentiate between them. I suspect this comment from an outsider about farmers being special and privileged is incomplete and there's more too it (eg some farmers are genuinely special while most are ordinary). I'm certainly not arguing that Szeth can't read or write, or that Vorin culture is universal on Roshar. I'm expressing surprise that Shin warriors can read and write at all given what else we know about their society - they seem to be treated like slaves. Is it normal for slaves to have their own specialised writing system? Also remember that warriors cannot be traded with outsiders (Szeth was a special exception being Truthless) - so are you suggesting that Shin warriors commonly assassinate other Shin? But why would it be normal to given written instructions rather than simply tell them? Also, if the warriors master writes out an order they would have to learn the warriors script - doesn't that strike you as being odd at all, considering how Shin treat warriors? In short, I find it curious that Shin warriors have their own specialised writing system. What I'm not saying is "Brandon screwed up". I think we should read between the lines and not take at face value what characters say about the Shin. For example, maybe this warriors writing system is an ancient historical artifact from the days when warriors weren't the lowest of the low and has been preserved for some reason.

I dont see Shallan fitting into the "cool girl" archetype. Nan Balat thinks of her as "shy, quiet, delicate" - true in some ways but it seems they never really understood her (also makes we wonder what they know about what happened to their father - would he really think that if he knew she'd killed him?). She's not aloof or tomboyish but not particularly girlish. She seems to be able to get along with people in general readily enough, even if her tongue can be a bit of a problem. I find it rather hard to categorise her, which is just fine by me in many ways though some times I do wonder how we're supposed to react to her as readers: her remaining family aren't developed enough to make us sympathise with them strongly, so it's hard to "cheer" for her in her plan to steal for Jasnah. Shallan also effectively condemns and judges herself her theft, both before and after. Are we supposed to permanently condemn her too, or forgive her for her immaturity? And what are we to make of her admitting to killing her own father? She's quite a curious and interesting character yet also frustrating too. btw, does anyone else get a certain amount of "impending doom" for her brothers? There's this financial crisis they're facing, but also twice a bunch of Ghostbloods have come to visit and threaten them. Might they come to consider Shallan and/or her brothers a threat to be neutralised before too much info about them is leaked?

Why do the lowest of the low need to know how to read and write anyway though?

What aren't the Shin hiding? Consider just the second interlude... Normal warrior servants can't be traded with outsiders yet Szeth was approx 7 years ago. Why the distinction? As a side note: Galivar's death was nearly 6 years ago, so it took a bit over 1 year between Szeth leaving Shinovar and him assassinating Galivar - and he probably spent a good chunk of that as Vstim's servant. That Shin farms are "holy" seems suspicious too. I can't believe all farmers are super special - there would just be too many of them. They don't use fabrials it seems, so I presume they grow all their food. Unless they have super skills in farming (seems unlikely considering they have problems getting metal) 70-90% of the population would have to be farmers. Maybe only some of the farmers are special - eg use "magic" in farming. In Szeth's bit there's brief mentions the "valley of truth" and the list of people to be killed he's given is written in the "warrior's script of his homeland". Bit surprising for the lowly warriors to have their own script.

Yados, we could spend a lot of time discussing this I'm sure. I certainly dont want "more of the same" myself and I find it a bit depressing how often this sells. Personally, I'll happily read fiction aimed at any gender/age group so long as it is innovative and/or just done really well. I have noticed "problems" with all categories - kinda happens if you read/watch enough. btw, do you listen to Writing Excuses at all? In a recent episode Brandon had an in-depth discussion about The Way of Kings (from a writer's point of view): http://www.writingexcuses.com/2012/06/10/writing-excuses-7-24-project-in-depth-way-of-kings/ Not much is particularly relevant to this discussion though. But, I think it's safe to say that Brandon puts a lot of work into the design of his world, while also trying to keep them realistic within their own context. Fortunately, in fantasy settings with magic, it's easier to have female characters with strong roles without it seeming forced. But if the only truly interesting female characters are those with special powers that leads to other problems with "balance" within the story. So I like Bradon's idea for the Stormlight Archive that within the Vorin culture roles are strongly split by gender... though maybe this wasn't used to best effect in book 1. Going back to what we might see in book 2, particularly with regards to Shallan... It will be interesting to see how Dalinar becoming "highprince of war" changes the "setting": in book 1 there has been regular feasting and a good amount of socialising between the various war-camps. With Dalinar putting the camps on a proper war-footing and taking away the "games" of the other highprinces, his camp might be a bit isolated and there will probably be less socialising in general. However, I would certainly expect there to be regular social events - feasts after (successful) major battles would probably be a good idea politically for example. So when Shallan arrives, maybe she'll be able to enjoy things to start off with since I imagine she'll be spending almost all her time in Dalinar's camp - ie among allies. It will be interesting to see how her peers in Dalinar's camp treat her: Jasnah did get lots of requests for wardship after all, so we can imagine there being a jealous reject or two. Since Shallan's from a foreign country, how will she be treated? Hopefully most will give her the benefit of the doubt and she'll be able to make some new friends. It seems like a good bet she'll be able to get along with Jasnah's mother - maybe we will see all 3 working together regularly?

That too. Shallan's art has made an impact in smaller settings but now she'll be moving to the court of the king of the biggest nation around. It'll be interesting to see how people react to her, and her art. Woah there. I seem to have trodden on a landmine here... I was certainly not saying that we should expect all new female characters to be adversarial. Not would I want that. Why would I? It'd be boring. All I was saying was that would should expect to see "some" of this. I also thought it might be a bit amusing (in a dark way) if Shallan's back-stabbing comments turned out to be prophetic, but I'd kinda prefer it if they didn't.

Hmm, I just realised something about this quote: The key bit here is "west". Are the terms east and west used at all in modern Roshar? If you look at maps from modern era they have: north, south, stormward (ie east) and leeward (ie west) Is this possibly an indication that the Roshar has not always had highstorms? Can someone with an ebook version look for east/west? Anyway... another idea I had is that this possible instant traveling hub based in Urithiru could be based on "pairing fabrials" - using a similar theory to spanreeds. I think this system would either require activation by humans (ie would be limited by availability of rare talents) or would be some permanent system based on gems (ie would be limited by availability of suitable gems) - those seem to be the only types of magic in the world. (Ok, there may have been other types of magic then too, but it would be a bit strange for people to lose a whole magic system) Given limited resources, either of these systems would more naturally lead to a hub based design - though I'm assuming a gem based system would require large and rare gems. The Ars Arcanum suggests that there's limits to how far spanreed gems can be separated and still function - so maybe there would be distance limits to this traveling hub too. In which case, maybe the best location would be the center of the continent. The quote above talks about the best location being to the west... but it doesn't necessarily mean the far west - it may just mean to the west of Alethela, though this interpretation is a bit of a stretch perhaps.

Resurrecting an old thread a bit... In Book 1, we saw very little regarding plots between women - Shallan was pretty much the only female viewpoint we got and there wasn't much chance for politics in her situation. But with her and Jasnah heading to the Shattered Plains I'd expect this to change. I remember there being a comment about how there's always plots going on in the capital but that the queen could handle it - I wonder if we'll see a viewpoint or two from her (particularly given who turned up at the end of book 1). That comment suggests to me that there'd definitely power battles going on directly involving the women - and it would hardly be a surprise either. So, whether she likes it or not I expect Shallan to have to deal with some "soft power" type battles between women - there'll be people who'll try to attack her (considering her weak) as a way to get to Jasnah for example. In book 1, Shallan jokes about "getting behind the assuredness movement" since it's easier to stab that way. Maybe Shallan will actually get a chance to do that for real In the first book, there was two or three bits that indicated that Shallan has a Shardblade. Given so many, it feels more like "avoiding a deus ex machina" rather than just regular foreshadowing - I dont think Brandon would hint quite so much if he didn't plan to make Shallan finally summon it in book 2. Will be interesting to see what causes her to finally do it...

Certainly the Shin seem quite different from everyone else on Roshar. Based on what Kaladin saw in that wind swept dream of his, it looks like just about every land has very regular conflict. Is Shin the only place at peace? And if so, it seems rather unlikely to be "just because". Hopefully we wont have to wait too long to get a better idea of what makes that place tick. One thing I noticed more fully on a re-read is the importance of 'crem' in rain from highstorms. It makes the water dangerous to drink until it's had a chance to settle out. It also solidifies on buildings, requiring continuous maintenance. Yet, it also helps plants grow - it seems pretty vital for life overall. It seems likely that some Shardholder "made it so" but hard to say who. Lots of interesting little mysteries. Going back to my original post. Just to repeat in a way: from what Brandon says, we know that Odium is out to disable/splinter/shatter all other Shards. Honor claims to have been killed by him. So what reason could Odium have for not trying to splinter/whatever Cultivation? Given that the other Shardholder on Roshar is gone already, it seems unlikely that Odium could use Cultivation against other Shardholders somehow. Waiting "just because" seems a bit flimsy too. So, either Odium is unable to harm Cultivation or has already harmed Cultivation. In the latter scenario, it's not impossible to imagine the Shardholder changing hands. Consider the potential use of it as a literary device: we have the "word of god" (Honor) stating that Cultivation is female. We know Odium and Honor are male. So, if we see a "male Shardholder" being active on Roshar we would naturally assume it to be Odium. But Honor's words would only have been true up until his "death" (ie when they were recorded). It just seemed a little odd - in Honor's last/first message to Dalinar, he talks kinda vaguely most of the time but suddenly slips in the info that Cultivation is female. Micro info-dump or reader missleading...? But evidence? Yeah, sorry. Not so much. Hence, just a random theory.

In Dalinar's vision, Honor clearly describes Cultivation as being female. But, since that is a recorded message, that doesn't mean Cultivation is still held by a female Shardholder. We have very very little information on Cultivation. But, if Odium killed Honor, what happened to Cultivation afterwards? Given the huge length of time and the presence of Odium, it's not impossible that Cultivation's Shardholder has changed hands. A number of people have fingered the Shin as being a people in which Cultivation has had a lot of influence, but they talk of "He who adds" (sounds like a religious figure) rather than "She who adds". Anyway... Sorry for the short theory and total lack of evidence... but I just had this idea and thought I could post this more as a warning: What Honor says about Cultivation could be a false trail on Brandon's part - though Shardholders very rarely change hands, it does happen. We shouldn't invoke the possibility too much but should also not ignore the possibility either.

I've been thinking about this for a bit. Here's some conclusions: 1) Szeth is not an ordinary criminal nor is he being punished like one 2) Szeth believes in Stone Shamanism still, or mostly does 3) Truthless are rare in the extreme and mean something specific 4) Maybe Shin aren't so peace-loving Firstly, let's consider "Truthless". I had wondered if it was a synonym for "traitor" effectively, but since it being capitalized, I would presume not. Maybe Szeth is "the Truthless" rather than just "a Truthless" too - maybe there's just one Shardblade in Shinovar, for example. I doubt we can guess much on what Truthless means in practice without knowing a lot more about Shin culture, but it seems to be quite a specific thing, and is unlikely to be something that is easy to achieve. Let's consider Szeth and his punishment himself. He is effectively his own jailor. This implies that either he is trusted to keep himself under his punishment until he dies or there is something extremely strong and effective preventing him from rebelling. I wonder if Brandon is using Szeth as an example of how a "good religious person can do evil because of his religion" or if it's something entirely different. Certainly Szeth wants his punishment to end - he's going insane from it continuing - yet he refuses to run away from it. There seems to be an interesting parallel here with the torture Heralds got - is that just a co-incidence? Whatever the case, Szeth has not betrayed his people in his heart else he would be rebelling far more than he is. For a supposedly peaceful people the Shin seem to have a lot of hidden weapons/battle skills - Szeth is the single most dangerous fighter on the continent that we've seen by a very very long way. I doubt Szeth is supposed to be some super genius fighter either - rather, this is a result of his training. I wouldn't actually be surprised if he got most of his battle skills after becoming Truthless. I wonder if the Shin have some kind of hidden rules like "in peacetime the farmers rule and in wartime the warriors rule" or the like, and the Shin have carefully preserved all their ancient fighting skills, just in case. In the "Szeth was perceived as betraying his people in a fundamental way" quote from Brandon, notice the "was perceived" part. In other words, Szeth did not necessarily actually "betray" his people or commit some major crime. Maybe it's more like Szeth was selected to be Truthless or he was made Truthless as the cover for something else. On a side note, maybe Szeth is going by his grandfather's name because the guy is dead while his father is still alive - that is, he needs a "normal" name but if his grandfather is long dead then he can't be dishonored by association with Szeth. It maybe even be that Szeth's father is the one who made Szeth Truthless.

To me, the last part reads more like marketing blurb - difficult to see an in-world character saying/writing all that... But if it was an in-world character, it seems to be someone with direct experience of thousands of years of history. A Herald or a Shardholder, then...

In the Feverstone Keep flashback thing, I remember Dalinar remarking to himself that Alethkar and Jah Keved had something like 50 Shardblades between them and there was estimated to be another 50 in the rest of the world... but he was seeing 200 in front of him in the flashback. Or something like that. I guess it's easy to see why the "Vorin Kingdoms" dominate culture - they're so strong militarily too. In a might-makes-right type of world, I guess it's natural that Shardholders and their descendants would tend to dominate. In places without Shardblades, I guess that's why there's generally other ways of selecting leaders. Oh, that's a nice idea. I had tended to think of "The Thrill" as mostly being cultural... but, if it's something that's built into Shardblades then with the cultural dominance of Shardholders it could easily make it become "the norm". Actually, here's an idea I just had, based on the above: It seems Honor had some kind of "pact" or bargain with Odium. Maybe Odium officially provided the the Shardblades (in a kind of "to give you a sporting chance" gesture, at least publicly) but privately gave the Blades some subtle features to corrode the souls/genes of the holders to further his long-term goals. That is, the (possible) evil within Shardblades is not humans making use of Odium's magic systems by mistake but something Odium provided directly - and the situation the humans were in was so dire, they couldn't afford to refuse them. In which case, you can easily see why the Radiants would want to be rid of them as soon as possible. Doesn't explain why they got rid of the armour too though - maybe Honor created the Shardplates to help neutralise the evil in the Blades, making it better to give up both rather than just the Blades?

Yup, though given how Brandon does his magic systems I would very much expect there to be some general-purpose underlying reason for the green to blue change. That is, if we knew why it happened we would understand a bit more about how magic works on Roshar. Though this did give me two further thoughts: 1) Was Szeth pre-disposed to the Surges he uses or were they forced upon him as part of whatever made him Truthless? I get the feeling that it's the latter but I guess we'll have to wait and see. 2) Are all Shardblades the same or did different orders of Knight Radiants have Shardblades with slightly different properties (and I dont mean just the physical design)?

I had some general ideas on Odium recently and was wondering about starting a new thread on it, but after re-reading this thread, maybe I'll just add it here instead... The following are just ideas and I have no evidence to back them up. I hope they both seem quite natural/plausible though. Idea 1: one Shardholder cannot simply kill another in a plain "battle" - they are like fundamental forces and directly attacking another would simply lead to mutual-destruction. Idea 2: all Shardholders will always have large areas of disagreement with other Shardholders and this probably gets worse with time. This is directly due to the fundamental nature of the Shards themselves. Of course, this doesn't mean that all Shard holders will immediately attack any other Shard holder - just that for two or more Shardholders to cooperate should be the exception rather than the norm. Based on these two ideas we get the following: So how does Odium kill other Shards then? By making use of a third Shard. So if a world only has one Shard holder involved then it would probably be impossible for Odium to just go there and kill the Shardholder and splinter the Shard. But if a world has two Shardholders then Odium can stir things up, get the two Shardholders to attack each other, which would weaken both. Odium could then directly work with one holder to destroy the other. In the ideal case, once one is killed Odium would then be able to kill the second if it is still quite weakened but this might not always work. On Scadrial, maybe Odium had nothing to do because Ruin and Preservation had already attacked each other (or maybe he had encouraged this). Maybe Odium felt it wasn't necessary to go in and finish them off or maybe he was waiting for them to weaken and self-destruct further. On Sel, maybe he got the ideal result. Nalthis has just one Shard holder so he couldn't attack. And on Roshar he killed Honor and splintered his Shard with Cultivation's help - though what's happened to Cultivation seems unclear. Sound reasonable?

The importance of light vs dark eyes is well established in the book already, so I didn't think it was worth mentioning. I suspect however, that there is additional importance to eyes beyond this, possibly including hue. Szeth's eyes temporarily change from dark green to pale blue when wielding a Shardblade - I believe Brandon has confirmed that Szeth isn't becoming a Knight Radiant but is using similar powers in a different way (or something like that). It could be that his Shardblade is different too - if Kaladin had picked up that Shardblade when he had a chance, or any Shardblade for that matter, would his eyes just become a lighter shade of brown permanently, or would they change in both hue and lightness? From the sounds of things, a darkeyes who takes up a Shardblade permanently becomes a lighteyes, rather than temporarily, and this change is inherited too - unlike Szeth. Eyes simply becoming a lighter shade is one thing - just add more light. But changing the hue seems to be something else. In which case, wouldn't there be some system underlying the hue change? Does the hue depend upon the person or the Shardblade, for example? PS I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Parshendi have entirely black eyes or something - I wonder what happens to their eye colour when they pick up a Shardblade.