kari-no-sugata

The following occurs to me (but dont have time to check book): Taravangian is pretty desperate to have another Day of the Diagram and the more Death Rattle examples. If the Diagram was thought to be flawless and complete then that wouldn't be necessary.

On the last one, yes you can for sure - Dalinar kicks away Elhokar's Blade just as it materialises. I do think it's reasonable to say that Blades are not good in close combat - high risk of cutting yourself, hard to get a good clean sweep, high risk of being disarmed etc. I'd also like to point out that while Sedeas is a veteran he's not a veteran with a Blade - he wouldn't necessarily try to summon the blade instinctively.

Maybe. Maybe not. From what Wit/Hoid says, Jasnah's recent visit to the spren in Shadesmar was the first such occurrence in a very long time - which means Jasnah had never done it before. Jasnah may or may not have tried other forms of Elsecalling before but given that she's trying to keep her Radiant status secret (even from her direct family) she would not want to risk using it without a strong need - and we also have WoB that she doesn't really understand what she's doing with Elsecalling. Jasnah does tell Shallan that neither of them are Radiants. If she really had progressed to the maximum level then she should know that she is a full Radiant - so either she would be lying or being highly misleading. That's about the limit of what we know. I don't think it's necessary for a Radiant to have mastered their Surges to become max level (Shallan is close but she has little experience with Transformation) so Jasnah's lack of ability in Elsecalling it not automatically evidence that she's not max level... but... personally, I don't think we should ignore this. My gut feeling is that she is lacking, somewhere. Radiants do not automatically advance to higher levels with time. I think it would also be a bit boring if Jasnah is already max level - she needs character growth too and not being max level would help. In which case, are there a plausible reasons for Jasnah not to have reached max level? I'd say there's two: she's hit some kind of wall and hasn't been able to progress or she's deliberately going very slowly and carefully.

I don't have a prediction on this since it could be anything, really. I do have an alternative suggestion though: she could figure it out herself. She has just about enough information to guess and if she then asked Dalinar or similar about it he could confirm it. However, I doubt she would start thinking about it unless someone or something prompted her to. (You might argue that this counts as Dalinar telling her but it could be someone else that confirms it for her, in such a scenario) PS Before WoR came out I did wonder if we'd ever see a situation where Shallan thinks Amaram killed her brother and is about to kill/similar him for it and Kaladin is there - so, does he decide to let Shallan kill Amaram for something he didn't actually do or does he step in and stop her. Oh, that would be a hard one! But, it would fit perfectly with Kaladin's most recent oath - it would be right to protect someone from being killed for a crime they didn't commit, even if they are hateful. Just need to try him for a crime he did commit! Such a scene would still theoretically be possible except that so far Shallan is not showing any sighs of actually seeking revenge.

When on going to visit the Natural History Museum you specifically go to the geology section and are then disappointed to find there's no special exhibition on "the 10 gems". ...and get strange looks after laughing over ruin marble * ...and stranger looks after giggling at dunite ** Was still a nice day though. PS * Yes, really: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruin_marble ** Yes, really: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunite

Yep. Though I think the problem he's had to date is that any time he tries he's screwed it up. Shallan's father wasn't trying to kill her at any time. He did knock her to the ground, but otherwise showed no indication that he intended to hurt her directly. Of course, he had just killed her step-mother in cold blood and was killing Balat in front of her. Shallan was also prepared to pre-emptively kill Mraize at the end of WoR for threatening her brothers. It's basically the same as what Adolin was facing with Sadeas but with less personal history involved... and Shallan stopped when Mraize made it clear there's no immediate danger. I don't think Adolin's actions would remind her of her father, unless Adolin suddenly changes. A more likely scenario would be equating him with Kabsal - "nice guy I've been semi-dating turns out to be a killer". However, I still don't see that being the most likely scenario since Shallan has already tried to help Adolin kill Sadeas. If it was someone other than Sadeas then maybe. Of course, it's also possible that Adolin might decide to break things off with Shallan for her own good... Hard to predict how long Kaladin will be away for. He might want to escort his parents to safety (ie Urithru) which would take some time even assuming nothing much happens (which is unlikely). 1-2 months I'd figure. I agree it's highly likely that the ramifications for Adolin himself will dominate the book. It would be awfully boring if he's basically just sitting in prison the whole time though.

Yes, but he won't. Or rather, Dalinar won't. (hmm, interesting thought - what if Elhokar sides with Adolin and issues his own pardon, ignoring Dalinar?) I guess I needed to explain my expectation for Dalinar's POV more: If Dalinar has Adolin pardoned it would be terrible politics with the other Highprinces. He would also be a hypocrite. While the other Highprinces wouldn't morn Sadeas that doesn't mean they'll now simply do whatever Dalinar wants. I could also imagine them reacting like this: "Oh, so now that you're a Radiant you've going to have your son assassinate those who disagree with you then pardon him huh? The Radiants betrayed us before - I guess it's just to be expected". I don't think Dalinar would react like a Skybreaker but I think he would be close - I think he would see Adolin's actions as a crime that need to be punished but find it really hard to decide the "right" punishment. He would also need to balance public opinion and the Highprinces (and even other nations). You mean that being hypocritical is typical for Shallan? Either way, I disagree. She does not see Adolin as perfect and wouldn't want him to be perfect either - remember her talk in the chasms about a masterpiece painting showing the flaw/vulnerability in the hero? So, I don't think she'd feel that her expectations were betrayed. She certainly wouldn't care for Sadeas - she has seen how Adolin reacts to Sadeas like when she was at the Pinnacle she saw angerspren pooling under Adolin when Sadeas was talking and in a later chapter Adolin explained what happened in tWoK. It's after that that Shallan came up with a plan that should have resulted in Adolin killing Sadeas - in the duelling arena. In short, I have trouble thinking what Shallan would react badly to. The way I see it the more she cares for Adolin the less likely she'll react poorly. Maybe you see it the other way around? Maybe I'm reading her wrong but she already sees him as someone she wants to help and assist - someone like her brothers. Rather than her blowing up against Adolin I think we'll see her blow up against Dalinar - which would be much more fun She did react badly to Jasnah killing those thieves, which we have WoB on is worse than what Adolin did. Shallan was there and saw which seems to be most of the reason why she reacted so badly. She got over that and by WoR is thinking of Jasnah as someone practically "divine". Hmm, sending Adolin to Kholinar to deal with the riots is a really good idea! I generally agree. I'm expecting Kaladin not to be around so kinda ignored him. There's all sorts of possibilities for sure, since we know little about Renarin. It's high time he got some POVs, particularly since he's come out as a Radiant - the more proactive he is (ie trying to achieve something) the more likely we are to see his POVs. If there's going to be a "twist" of some kind with Renarin I think it would be something like this: he finds out about Sadeas death like everyone else but at the time the murderer is unclear. He uses his Radiant powers to investigate and realises it was Adolin, which unintentionally goes public. Effectively he betrays Adolin, even though it was accidental and this hurts both brothers. To try to make amends, Renarin tries to do what he can to help...

For all that's been written about it, I don't think the aftermath of Sadeas's murder will be a big part of book 3. It will be important for some characters but there'll be much more important things going on. But I have some thoughts on this I'd like to share. Two quotes from chapter 50 "uncut gems": I don't think many people are going to morn Sadeas's passing, to put it mildly. I've not seen any indication that he was popular or well liked anymore. In particular, for many people in Dalinar's camp, the reaction is more likely to be the reverse - grim joy that the bastard finally got what was coming to him. Dalinar lost several thousand soldiers at the end of tWoK, all because of Sadeas. The new bridgemen soldiers would hardly be well disposed to Sadeas either. Also, a number of lighteyes died during the bridge collapse assassination attempt. Let's put it another way: most of the people in Dalinar's camp would probably think Adolin deserves a medal. Dalinar exiling Adolin (or similar) would not be popular at all with them. This could potentially open up a dangerous rift within Dalinar's camp. Please note: I'm not arguing whether Adolin's actions were moral or not by our standards or that the law is a popularity contest. I'm trying to consider the likely in-world implications. Also, I'll assume for the sake of argument that Adolin is generally considered guilty and/or confesses to the murder relatively quickly and that Dalinar will come down hard on him. I'll also assume that Kaladin won't play much if any part in this (off to see parents) This wouldn't be the best start for Dalinar's Oath to bind men together. I also think that Dalinar is partly to blame for giving Sadeas way too much leeway. Yes, Dalinar was in a difficult situation but I think he was partly motivated by his old friendship with Sadeas. Ditto Amaran - I suspect that letting him run free will turn out to be a big mistake. Being benevolent is all well and good but there are downsides. It also rather unfair and inconsistent if Dalinar is harsh with his allies and soft with his enemies. So, what can be done? I don't think Dalinar will be willing to simply pardon Adolin and he'd certainly not want to have him executed. It seems the minimum possible punishment would normally be exile. But it would be surprising to see Adolin simply walk off the stage (let alone be executed). I suspect that Adolin will be imprisoned until a final punishment is decided. So again, what can be done? Based on what we know, I think maybe the best option would be to retro-actively get Sedeas declared to have been a traitor to the Throne and have his title of Highprince stripped. I think that would help a lot - I get the impression that killing a Highprince is automatically a much bigger crime. Given the mitigating circumstances maybe Adolin's punishment will boil down to time in jail and losing a rank. Of course, there's a lot we don't know about Alethi law - maybe this would be a non-option but it seems reasonable to me currently. So who is going to put together a compelling case, enough that pretty much everyone would accept it (including the other Highprinces)? My bet would be on Shallan and Renarin with some help from Navani. The main "opposition" would be Ialai. So, why Shallan? For brevity's sake I'll just consider what I think is the most likely reaction: Shallan has killed people herself (Tyn the day before she met Adolin), she was very much aware that Adolin hates Sadeas since she put together a plan to have Sadeas legally killed in a duel (to help/impress Adolin). Morally, she might not see much difference between legally killing someone in a dual and what Adolin did. So, I think Shallan would be surprised but not horrified - she would understand and not condemn. In a way, it could help them get closer since Shallan could feel that she could discuss her dark secrets with Adolin. The more Shallan cares about Adolin the more likely she would be to take action - if she doesn't care much about him and if supporting him would become a liability for protecting her bothers then yes she could just walk away (which would really hurt Adolin I think). So, why Renarin? Certainly events in WoR clearly showed him willing to risk life and limb to help/protect Adolin. Of course, we don't know for sure how Renarin would react in these particular circumstances. I suspect he will feel quite conflicted at the beginning - he respects his father too. I could certainly see him getting behind a plan to retro-actively strip Sadeas of his title, or something along those lines. So, could Shallan and Renarin work together, despite the events towards the end of WoR? I'd say so - there were mitigating circumstances on both sides and greater understanding would definitely help (and apologies). Before things got bad, Shallan and Renarin were getting along fine and Renarin was arguably more useful and faster on the uptake than the trained scholars (!). So, in summary: Adolin spends a lot of time in the slammer with a proverbial axe hanging over him. His fiancée and brother lead the fight for him. Sadeas's widow is the "new" (public) opposition. Dalinar stews in the middle, thinking lots of deep thoughts and worries about his own people and own sons. There's lots and lots of other possibilities but this is my main prediction currently - which I expect will be utterly wrong in practice

Heh, Shallan glomping Hoid is my favourite scene in the book However, it's not because I'm shipping them but because it's just so darn hilarious - Hoid is the unflappable all-too-knowing type of the Cosmere and Shallan manages to shock him twice in the same book I really do hope Shallan apprentices to him at some point, though. It feels like a "promise to the readers" at least, since Hoid implies he might be able to help more when she's ready on their first meeting. However, tracking him down and getting him to agree might be a challenge. There's lots of fun possibilities with them together. For example, Shallan could Lightweave herself as Wit and then she and Hoid could insult people in stereo

Hmm, I thought I had a post on this specifically, but I'll point you to this instead: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/8022-how-did-the-recreance-happen/#entry136072 Indeed, the Voidbringers were gone after Aharietiam. Basically, I think that after Aharietiam there was nothing that could stand up to the Radiants... except themselves. Unless there's some mysterious 3rd force that is equal to 1000s of Radiants in combat strength then the only thing that could stand up to Radiants at the time would be other Radiants.

I don't remember reading this before but it's pretty similar to a crazy idea I had myself. Except that Shallan would be dead (!) Setup: Shallan pushes herself to the max with Soulcasting (possibly with an Honorblade) to defeat something big and save the day, using up an astronomical amount of Stormlight. But, as a side-effect her entire body turns into gemstone (like how the Soulcasters we see briefly in WoR are no longer quite human). So, Shallan saves the day but dies and they don't need to make a statue in her honour because she already is one. Later: Hoid feels he needs to go to Shallan/statue - it is put outside (under a roof) since Shallan wouldn't like to be "locked up" indoors. He waits. Nothing happens. Eventually, a highstorm comes. Hoid waits, still nothing happens. Suddenly, the stage in the highstorm where gems are infused comes and Shallan/statue radiates with light. Hoid feels a presence behind him and turns around - there is the glowing form of Shallan, floating in the air. She's become a spren And off they go to have much fun adventures together... The original idea for this was: hmm, maybe if Shallan can Soulcast people then she can Soulcast herself? If so, would it be possible to become a spren!? I then had the idea that since Hoid tends to "steal" a power from each Shardworld it would be kinda fun for him to get a spren and him and Shallan feels like they could be an interesting combination. They'd just need to figure out some why to fuel Surges with Investure other than Stormlight or find a way to metabolise Stormlight like Lift. Note, in this idea of mine, Shallan and Hoid wouldn't necessarily be lovers at all, but more like "birds of a feather".

The Recreance was definitely long after Aharietam. We saw Aharietam in the first scene and there were Radiants there. Also, per Jasnah in tWoK (when talking about the drawing of the Voidbringer) says it was from several generations after Aharietam but before the Recreance. In addition, in the History of Man page in tWoK its listed after and is distinct - there would be no need for that if they were close together.

From what I understand, as soon as Taln returned the Everstorm and a Desolation was guaranteed to happen sooner or later. I think Brandon might have indicated that the real Taln has returned, though just not exactly when and whether we've really seen him or not. I think it's possible that he returned 6-7 years ago and just hasn't been in a state to come out into the open... or that he returned very recently but that the spren could somehow sense that he was "due" and started preparing (can't remember all the WoBs on this) So basically: Taln's return (or imminent return) set all sorts of forces into motion. The world as a whole is trending towards Desolation. There's a lot of detail and there will be individual tipping points for some things but it was all going to happen sooner or later. Personally, I think its quite likely that Galivar was seeing the same visions Dalinar has been seeing. It's the simplest explanation I can think of. He changes quite a lot towards the end and my reading is that he was become less Alethi-like (or at least, modern Alethi), more religious and more Radiant-like. There's almost certainly some things he got wrong though (like Dalinar has) and among those was confiding in Amaran and the Parshendi. PS Here's a random thought: one of the Heralds found Taln, who was basically a gibbering wreck after 4500 years of torture. Feeling guilty, he went to the Nightwatcher to get Taln cured and his curse was to become Taln ^-^

I think Shallan's notes came from Jasnah's. Here's another reference - Navani says in chapter 77: That Navani can say this immediately and without any reference to books suggests it's fairly common knowledge (among scholars) that it fell during the Last Desolation. btw, bit curious why she says "centuries" rather than millennia since Aharietiam was 4500 years ago. PS Anyone know what happened on 0 year on the calendar? eg, the year is 1173 in WoR, so 1173 years since what? It's not the War of Loss / Hierocracy since that was 500 years ago.

The fact that the squire bond exists suggests to me that there's still a lot we don't really know. Anyway, for Radiants in general, here's possible types/sources of special powers (including speculation): individual Surges effects that are only possible with the combination of 2+ particular Surges: this could be a single Radiant using their two Surges or multiple Radiants working together (or using an Honorblade) effects that always come from being able to hold Stormlight - eg, improved strength, endurance, healing etc. Squires might get the same (though weaker) "core" skills can get improved to an incredible degree over time eg drawing for Shallan, spear and general combat skills for Kaladin. These would be more like a direct enhancement from Stormlight I suspect, similar to (3) but would be specific to the person and not directly related to their Order/spren, and develop over a long time. "special" skills, eg memory for Shallan, leadership (?) for Kaladin, lie-detecting for Skybreakers. This would be common to a particular order. I suspect this could be related to the type of spren they are bonded to. squire bonds. I wonder where this comes from Shardblade ??? It would be interesting to see what abilities the Heralds get - might help us group the above skills more accurately. For example, if none get Squires then Radiant Squire ability is probably related to spren bond not Surges or Stormlight itself. They definitely should get improved healing since Szeth got. It would be interesting to see if they get (4) or (5) above - particularly if they get one and not the other since that indicate one is from Stormlight/Surge and one is from the spren.

Hi fastlindyrick - I used frame 64 (counting from 0) from the povray file: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Julia_set_3d_slice_animation.ogg I didn't make any changes. Does that help?

Thanks for that - I should have mentioned it in the original post Hmm. We don't see Renarin glowing at all which is normally a good indicator of having lots of Stormlight... but we also know that your glow doesn't show if you got a Surge feeding off it (like Shallan's illusions). Either way, I would be very surprised if Truthwatchers had the ability to foresee anything at any time, providing they had enough Stormlight - just don't see Brandon going down that path. There would have to be some limitations - here's one interesting idea: that essentially these visions of the future are something the Stormfather fears/sees and you can only tap into that, not whatever you like. So it's kind of the opposite of the Tanavast recorded visions. Of course, you might as well just ask the Stormfather directly then! But more seriously, that kind of limitation seems reasonable and Renarin was effectively getting the same vision again and again it seems (or with minor variants). He was only seeing the Everstorm (or so) that I remember, and not things other people were doing (like Szeth or Sadeas). Maybe in book 3 Renarin will have a new Countdown of Doom! That sure would be a depressing ability to have... though I suspect this would just be a small part of what Truthwatchers can do. Still, in the Starfalls flashback in tWoK there is the line "Harkaylain says the Desolation is close, and he is not often wrong" - maybe Harkaylain is a Truthwatcher and is good at predicting the future? Maybe we can narrow down the possibilities a bit more at some point but I'm still coming up with new ideas Here's something I was thinking today... Maybe the Illumination Surge by itself is enough to give the ability to see far off events as they happen and also recent events but little/no ability to see the future... and Illumination + Progression Surges allows you to see the future (in the sense that the Progression Surge enhances this aspect of Illumination). So far not so original but here's the interesting bit - Progression seems related to plants and growth and the crem from highstorms is basically a (somewhat) magical fertiliser. Maybe when there's a lot of crem in the air it helps seeing the future a lot!? Sounds bizarre I know... If this idea is true then Lightweavers would have little/no ability to ever see the future and wouldn't ever get the involuntary actions. I don't remember any hint of Shallan having an unusual reaction during a highstorm (except seeing the Stormfather when with Kaladin). I still like my idea that Renarin could learn to avoid the involuntary aspect by concentrating or otherwise doing something - or at least, we need some kind of reason for Renarin to have been able to keep it a secret for a long time despite it being involuntary. Urithru is (mostly?) above the highstorm but they must have some way to recharge gems - maybe some lower levels designed for the purpose. But yeah, resources could still easily become a problem. Given how Radiant orders tend to be "birds of a feather", I could easily imagine his problems being more common among Truthwatchers... but still rare. There's some suggestions that the power behind the Everstorm has built up to levels never seen before due to the long gap between usage (ie 4500 years). There could easily be other powers like that and we've seen similar things in other works by Brandon. Or it could be some force/effect that's normally spread across all Truthwatchers and since there's currently just one then Renarin is bearing it all by himself (sort of like being a lightning conductor). From what we've seen so far, Renarin makes a good student. I also suspect he can become one of the smartest men in Alethkar, even including ardents. But is there something he can do that fits with the warmongering Alethi where he can make use of his mind? Yes - battlefield tactician/commander. (This is actually an idea I had for Shallan, since it fits her personality better: Art of War. All warfare is based on deception. Know thy enemy, know thyself... etc. But this would fit better with Renarin's Surges)

I started this as a reply in another thread but figured it'd be better in its own thread... In a sense we can use our ignorance of what's really going on to come up with all sorts of interesting possibilities for discussion and fan-fics Thinking about "the involuntary nature of Renarin's visions", I've not seen much discussion about it. One interesting question would be "does Renarin have any reason to want this to continue?" and if not then "why hasn't his spren helped him solve it?" Since Renarin winces when first touching his Shardblade, we know that he's had a spren bond strong enough for that for at least most of WoR. He's also been able to talk with his spren, though we don't know how long for. So... either his spren doesn't know how to stop it (memory not recovered much yet perhaps? simply doesn't know?), his spren isn't willing to tell Renarin how to stop it, they've tried to do something about it but it didn't work, Renarin doesn't want to stop it, Renarin wants to stop it but hasn't discussed it... or something else. It could also be possible that for a long time Renarin had no idea he was doing it and his spren never told him, and then with the events near the end of WoR he realises what's been going on and after discussing things with his spren he now has an idea about what to do but isn't yet sure if it'll work. So what actually causes it...? Time for some speculation... We've seen Dalinar and Kaladin both having special visions and similar during highstorms on a regular basis as well, so Radiants having unusual reactions during highstorms by itself is not that odd. However, Renarin's reaction is definitely particularly unusual. If we assume that this effect is directly related to his Surges then one possibility would be some kind of (accidental) self-hypnosis using the Illumination Surge (though it could be a combination of his two Surges as well) and it has only occurred during highstorms so far simply because there's naturally a lot of magical energy floating around then - maybe Renarin has not yet learned to breathe in Stormlight and doing so could enable him to come up with these visions at any time. Or maybe they can only ever happen during highstorms - would be a good way to limit the ability from being too hax (from story-telling point of view). I'm not quite sure why but Renarin's visions reminds me a bit of Shallan when drawing - she almost seems to be in some kind of trance and she's come up with what's possibly past/present visions at least during drawing sessions (of Shalash and the sailors). There's also a vague reference to having "dreams that became real" as a child. Maybe it's possible that she could get similar visions to Renarin too but has been able to avoid it somehow? Maybe it's a simple as having something to concentrate strongly on - most people would hole up and relax during highstorms but Shallan would probably spend the time drawing, doing research or similar. Until the end, nobody saw Renarin drawing the countdowns so it's not like these visions can strike him suddenly at any time (specifically unlike Dalinar's visions and probably Kaladin's), so maybe they mostly occurred when he was relaxing and alone? Maybe the times they didn't occur was when he was concentrating on something else for enough of the highstorm? So maybe the solution to avoiding being taken over by the visions is to concentrate strongly on other things? I think it would fit in well with what he needs to do in general - I think he needs to find something to focus on, something he can excel at, something he can be proud of. I'm aware that the scenario I've painted out above doesn't seem to work terribly well with Renarin's last vision in WoR - since he's around people and has things to do. Maybe the realisation that his visions were really coming true sent him into shock... and so visions could come through again.

I hope so too. There's a lot she could do. I just wonder what route she'll end up going down. I've got some ideas but all very speculative at this point. The gender split is quite interesting but yeah, I don't think it'll last...

Given her artistic skills, maybe Shallan would be the poster-designer rather than the poster-girl? For some fun, I imagined some war posters... Dalinar would probably be something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Kitchener_Wants_You#mediaviewer/File:YourCountryNeedsYou.jpg The classic "Your country needs you" poster with Lord Kitchener... who after all was "minster of war" (and Dalinar is Highprince of War) Kaladin would be the kid from humble background who makes good. Sticking with the British war posters theme he would be a Spitfire pilot. Something like these: http://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/blog/2013/03/13/war-poster-wednesday-forward-to-victory http://pixels.com/featured/spitfire-attack-chris-lord.html Jasnah would be some kind of abstract ideal poster. Eg, Britannia: http://www.lexicolatry.com/2013/11/brittania-brit-chick-with-three-pronged.html Not sure what to do with Renarin. Any suggestions? What to do with Shallan herself? None of the posters I found seemed particularly appropriate... except this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keep_Calm_and_Carry_On I wonder how Shallan will be perceived in the short term. While she did save the army at the end of WoR, given how Vorin culture divides male and female roles and how the Radiants are seen as fighters then even among women Shallan might not be seen as a good role-model.

Taravangian seems like a good example of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". I'm pretty sure he started out a good person. This seems to be the rough series of events: For whatever reasons, he believes humanity is about to be destroyed (though exactly how and why I don't think we know) He wants to do something about this - save as many people as possible He decides to visit the Nightwatcher to request a boon - to be given the capacity to save the world His peak intelligence improves significantly and on a particularly good day he creates the Diagram He doesn't fully understand it but he believes this to be a plan to save the world, so starts following it The plan seems to involve a series of steps that allow him to become king of the world starting from a very weak base He doesn't like the plan but decides to follow it I don't see any indication that he wants people to die or enjoys seeing them die. He doesn't seem to hold any kind of grudge against any particular group of people. He doesn't seem to be motivated by greed either. So, is he evil? I guess that would depend on which system of morality you follow but I think most people would consider him to be evil. I think the most damming example is his reaction to the end of the death rattles: he decides to press on regardless. I think his main problems are excessive fear of failure, lack of trust (in the general sense) and a kind of selfishness in that he's pushing "his" solution onto everyone else. Or putting it another way, he doesn't seem to accept that there's other possible solutions to the problem and is forcing the world to (unknowingly) accept his solution, at the cost of all other possible solutions. He's being dictatorial, though not in the normal sense, rather than guiding. Rather than asking for the capacity to save the world (ie implying that only he can save it) he should have asked for the capacity to help the world save itself, or something - ie to work with others to help save the world. To serve, rather than to dictate. Maybe some day he will have some kind of epiphany and realise where he went wrong but for the next 2-3 books I expect him to be the biggest natural (ie human) obstacle to the protagonists.

Umm. Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me or just not following my argument since that's what I said: "When we're introduced to Shallan..." "Interestingly, some of the changes she goes through in WoR reduces some of the above "poor antagonist" problems. In particular the first one - she learns to deal with confrontation and when arguing with Kaladin at their meeting in the pinnacle she thinks she's finally over it (lucky Kaladin ^-^)." I'm quite well aware of the difference between an antagonist and a villain. I named the thread deliberately that way. I was only considering ways in which she could intentionally become an antagonist though, yes. Essentially that was the problem I was trying to solve: Shallan is a major protagonist in the books and is working with the other protagonists already (for the most part) so I was considering ways this could be flipped around. Yes, she doesn't need to be evil to intentionally be an antagonist but she would need will and motivation, which is what I was discussing.

That's basically how I see it too. I've wondered if it's possible to make much much bigger versions, if you had the resources, and basically have a giant robot

I was quite nervous when I made my original post - many thanks for the positive response! (And sorry for being quiet but I've been working horrible hours the last few days). I'd like to expand a bit on my "Shallan would probably make for a poor antagonist" line. Obviously I came up with a partial solution by changing her history, though I didn't make her particularly antagonistic - I see her as being sort-of "chaotic good" in the books and I turned her more to "chaotic neutral" to slightly evil. When we're introduced to Shallan, I'd say that the main reasons why she'd make a poor antagonist are as follows: She cannot deal with confrontation - to the point that she practically has a nervous breakdown when Jasnah is angry at her early on. An antagonist that simply folds when confronted by a protagonist is clearly a poor one. She doesn't have any strong anger, hatred or envy against any particular person, group, organisation or country. She doesn't have any kind of personal ambition that would strongly clash with others. She does want to save her brothers of course, the whole reason reason why she's come to steal from Jasnah but it's difficult to use that to turn her into a full fledged long-term antagonist. Generally speaking, good antagonists have a big personal ambition. It's not that we can't turn her into an antagonist at all, but that she'd make a poor one... so long as we keep faithful to the canon (though I'm also aware that there's quite a divergence of opinion on Shallan too). If we accept taking major liberties then it's not nearly so interesting, but I don't want to be too pedantic about it either to try to keep this thread "fun". There's also a lot we don't know - for example, in my story above I left Shallan with Lightweaving abilities but would Pattern accept that since he wants to do something about the approaching Voidbringers/Odium? I had considered leaving Shallan without her KR abilities and instead she picks up her father's soulcaster, but that's not quite so fun. Interestingly, some of the changes she goes through in WoR reduces some of the above "poor antagonist" problems. In particular the first one - she learns to deal with confrontation and when arguing with Kaladin at their meeting in the pinnacle she thinks she's finally over it (lucky Kaladin ^-^). She does have some hatred/anger against Amaran and the Ghostbloods but it doesn't seem particularly deep or intense. Some people think Shallan hates Pattern now but I'm pretty sure it was something she said in the heat of the moment. There was two other ideas I had for making Shallan into an antagonist: the first is pretty simple - just leave her stuck in the "coldness of clarity" mode. It's not that that would make her an antagonist by itself but I wondered if her ability to empathise would drop to zero - ie she would become a very smart very effective very dangerous sociopath. However, this kinda feels like cheating. One interesting play on this would be to re-write Szeth's prologue (To Kill) with Shallan like this instead. Quite a big divergence from the canon (would have to change her age a lot and maybe make her Shin) but could be quite cool if done right - and something we could do with all the Surgebinders. My other old idea was to give Shallan a distinct multiple personality disorder - there's a point where Shallan is a bit disappointed to realise that "Veil" is basically just a darkeyed version of herself. So, what if she tried to make Veil more distinct...? But then Veil turns out to be a real nasty piece of work. While writing this post I came up with another idea. I'll try writing it up if I get the time/energy.

Shallan / Lightweaver's colour is indeed garnet, confirmed in-world. See beginning of chapter 71: I do wonder if Shallan's eyes should be garnet? Kaladin's change doesn't seem to be temporary due to excessive Stormlight use or something since Dalinar doesn't comment on his eyes reverting. Is being lighteyed have anything to do with it or is she a special case? Random thought: maybe Shallan's eyes changed to garnet as a child and this is what her mother noticed (I've wondered if maybe Shallan's mother thought Shallan was becoming a Voidbringer). But if so, nobody else has noticed and commented on it which is odd. Is it possible that Shallan has been sub-consciously keeping her eye colour the same? Or is it that lighteyed people's eyes only change when they hit the highest level as a Radiant? Or not at all?