kari-no-sugata

I've spent a while going through WoR to cover one particular aspect of her growth, to help argue that it's pretty natural.

The whole Radiant to spren bonding process is a bit murky currently but I feel that if Adolin were able to revive the spren in his Blade in such a scenario then the spren would be very appreciative of that and would want to form a bond anyway. Though if they're not compatible then it would likely fail, in which case the spren would have to return to Shadesmar. However, I expect things to be the other way around: that the only way for Adolin to be able to revive the spren in his Blade would be if they're compatible enough to form a bond and achieving that that is what allows the spren to revive. In such a scenario it would then be entirely natural for Adolin to become a Radiant because they've already formed a bond. I agree that if there is an alternative then it would likely be interesting and insightful. However, I see two potential problems with that: it could feel like a "Deus ex machina" if Adolin achieves it by accident and the obvious question would be "can Adolin revive all spren blades then?" which basically turns him into a Spren Necromancer. Seems a bit too radical to me. I think if reviving spren is going to be possible its going to have to be really really difficult to repeat otherwise all existing Blade holders will be doing it by the end of the series.

Given their last conversation, it looks likely that Mraize will give Shallan a proper description of what the Ghostbloods aims are early in the next book, though I do wonder how fair and complete it will be. Either way I think we can expect to see Shallan do more Soulcasting in the next book so hopefully we can learn more about that too. I had been thinking that Shallan would have to destroy the Ghostbloods but hmmm... hostile takeover... that's quite an intriguing possibility. Edit: I said in earliest post that I thought the Ghostbloods seemed particularly interested in Soulcasters but couldn't think of any reason why offworlders would be so interested in them (over say Shardblades and Shardplate). Well, I then got this idea: what if they're all from a particular world with a hostile environment. On Roshar, the Soulcasters are one of the things that help make the world less hostile for humans so this could be used on other worlds too. So maybe one of the goals of the Ghostbloods is to collect lots of Soulcasters, figure out how they work fully, then take them back to their homeworld.

I don't remember all the theories posted about the Ghostbloods so I might be repeating something I remember reading long ago but has anyone else thought the following: simplifying greatly, a soulcaster is a triangular set of gems connected together. The Ghostbloods symbol is also basically a triangular set of gems! In addition, I got a funny feeling that Mraize was particularly glad that Shallan could Soulcast herself. So do the Ghostbloods have some particular attachment to Soulcasting? Seems weird and I've not been able to come up with any other insights. They're a pretty mysterious bunch and given the hints of some of them being offworlders it's hard to imagine them being too interesting in one particular magic system from another world.

Thanks for the poll! Interesting results... It seems the more negative reactions to Shallan or more "annoyance", "frustration" or "disappointment" rather than "hate". I've always enjoyed Shallan as a character but I also find I need to work harder to feel like I've properly understood her - there's been many cases where I only realised certain things after many re-reads. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. Can anyone thing of any other primary viewpoint character in a fantasy series that is like her? The closest I can think of is Moist von Lipwig from the Discworld novels and they're pretty different still. One interesting thing about Shallan is that she has "learned how to learn" - she knows what she's good at and not so good at and is used to figuring out things by herself. This is not the fastest way to learn but it does give you a different approach and develops your problem solving skills, which is something that is always useful and something that's very hard to teach. This, combined with her natural intelligence, is why she can impress Jasnah, one of the smarted and most learned people around. This is also why she can figure out that Jasnah was a Soulcaster herself rather than simply using one. Her general attitude and approach makes her a good pupil and she does a good job at applying what she learns from Jasnah and others - my favourite example being when (WoR): Rest of this post is replies to other posters, but since it mostly references WoR I'll put it all in spoiler tags:

I don't really see how she can be a Skybreaker since she's basically just in the middle of nowhere... unless she's acting as a relay-station for spanreeds (ie information gathering and distribution). Also, as others have pointed out, young Shallan would actually have needed to commit a crime before Skybreakers could take action. I have a pet theory that the guy Shallan's mother brought to the house was a Vorin exorcist and that they thought she was possessed by a Voidbringer. This somewhat relies on the assumption that such a profession exists - certainly when Shallan used the ruse of Iyatil being possessed by a Voidbringer she was taken seriously, in which case there might be specialists. Also, I think the probability of Shallan's mother taking the action she took would vastly increase if Shallan's eyes ever glowed red (ie garnet) because this is associated with Voidbringers. Unfortunately, we don't yet know if this is possible. The third assumption this theory requires is that Shallan's mother would have to be devout (Shallan herself is somewhat devout). That being said, just about any theory will need something similar to the last two: that Shallan's mother had really good evidence and that she was devoted to whatever her beliefs were.

I'm sure there'll been many views on this. Here's mine: I think Dalinar failed on the "strength before weakness" part of the First Ideal - he's effectively the most powerful person in the land but in practice he fails to stand up to Sadeas properly. Sadeas is opposing the Crown which makes him a traitor. His actions have caused the unnecessary deaths of thousands of people. Yes the situation was difficult but Dailinar should still have done more and made it clear that Sadeas is a criminal and that such actions will not be tolerated. The obvious problem though is how to do that without causing a civil war - which would fail on the "life before death" part of the First Ideal. Arguably Shallan's plan to trap Sadeas with the King's Boon was the best solution... which begs the question why Dalinar never thought of this himself, particularly since he name-drops Yenev early on. My personal feeling is that he was reluctant to prosecute his "old friend". Or alternatively that he is over-compensating for his warlord days. So if those who should act do not then what can you do? That's how I see Adolin's situation. He's tried to do what he legally can. He tries to ignore Sadeas and walk away. It didn't work and now Sedeas is back to being an imminent threat to him, his family, Shallan, his soldiers and peace. I don't blame him for snapping. I thought Brandon said it pretty well

Hmm hmm. You may be right. Brandon has dropped enough tipbits about Heralds in Q/A sessions too.

I'm not particularly familiar with Orson or his work, so my comments are purely on what I read: I didn't find his comments to be too bad and reviews are not always very focused (or maybe I'm just used to this sort of thing). I think his point with his references to early WoT and other works is to say "the Stormlight Archive is a big epic fantasy series but the pacing is nice and brisk, in case you were worried about it being slow". If so he didn't connect it terribly well.

I happened to come across this thread. It's a bit old but I thought I could offer some advice on sound recording - if it's unnecessary please just feel free to ignore. I've experimented a bit over the years and the best option I've found (unless you want to buy pro equipment) is basically a "usb headset with external boom and noise cancellation". usb = digital connection = works reliably with no (extra) noise... or not at all headset = stays consistent distance from your mouth external boom (ie on a little stick that comes down from headphones) = near your mouth (I wouldn't trust the in-ear ones) noise cancellation = much less background noise I've been using this sort of thing for Skype chats etc for 8 years or so. Pretty easy to get and you should be able to get something decent for $25-50 from an online retailer. I've used them on Macs and PCs and they just plug and play.

Oho, crack theories/ideas time... I had the idea once (before WoR came out) that maybe Shallan had a magical reality distortion field - because people seemed to like her more than she liked herself. Turned out I was sort of right on that one Other wacky/weak theories/ideas I've had on Shallan since WoR: She's using Transformation Surge to edit her own brain/memories (as well as other peoples'). Elhokar's wife dies in the riots and he proposes to Shallan after she gives him some help with becoming a better king (ie Shallan starts going down the reverse harem route). In the end Shallan dies and becomes a spren and goes off with Wit/Hoid. After I noticed what seemed to be some references to "The Art of War" I wondered if Shallan could ever end up coming a battlefield director / war planner, particularly since most popular quotes from the book go something like "all war is based on deception" and "know the terrain, know your enemy, know yourself". Kaladin's old soldier buddy Hav quits being a soldier and joints the Ardents when he finds out Amaram is an evil bastard - and then Shallan buys him to help train her soldiers. (for ref, Kaladin once thinks that Hav might well have 'retired' like this already but Shallan bumps into him when getting into Amaram's camp) I've been trying to come up with 'fun' ideas for what happens to Bridge 4 while Kaladin is away ("while the cat's away the mice do play" etc) but not been able to come up with anything yet. Anyone got ideas? I've got some prototype ideas for some wacky made-up comedy scenes between some of the characters. One involved Jasnah and Szeth going on a blind date - Jasnah has to after losing a bet with Shallan and Szeth is ordered to by a capricious master (though he does wear a disguise). They go to a playhouse and after finding that the show is "The Death of King Galivar" they decide to skip that and go to a cafe to chat...

Too early for that I think... Best suggestion I've seen so far in Navani. Sadeas suggestion would be interesting too... though ironic.

Hmm. I suspect we'll see Eshonai's POV in book 4 and Galivar's in book 5. But book 3. Hmm. Elhokar and Dalinar didn't seem to be doing anything too interesting until afterwards. How about Amaram or Taravangian? Renaran's or Adolin's POV could be interesting too, to give a quite different perspective.

The way I see it, Kaladin's anger is perhaps his biggest strength (in that he uses it to motivate himself even in the worst situations) and his biggest weakness (when it blinds him to reality). Or you could view his anger as being tied into his desire to protect - his failures make him angry both at himself and those he feels are making things worse (ie the lighteyes). In WoR he doesn't really have a way to release his anger in a constructive manner and directs it against the lighteyes - he ends up in a downward spiral until the chasm scenes with Shallan where he starts to recover after becoming able to see lighteyes in general as fellow humans. Here's an interesting quote from tWoK chapter 4 after Tvlakv mentions Amaram: Yep, chapter 4. Anger like that isn't just going to vanish. Also, consider this quote from WoR chapter 46 (Patriots): Kaladin's problems are internal and not because of Syl - she's externalising his problem, not causing it.

Starting a new topic before the other one gets too derailed. This is from Fantasycon: http://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/2a490q/wor_first_look_at_stones_unhallowed/ This is a reading from Brandon of something he wrote the previous week. Contains non trivial spoilers for book 3 and by extension book 2. Credit for link goes to Moogle: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/12700-dalinar-sadeass-murder-and-public-opinion/page-6#entry158236 PS I don't know if we have any particular policy for book 3 readings going ahead. I looked around for some from book 2 but couldn't find anything.

Damnation you guys are prolific! Hmm, I could do another post trying to clarify some things but I think that's getting boring. So instead, I'll just talk about some things I'd like to see (or not like to see), not in general but more relating to the murder and secondary effects. It may sound perverse or creepy but I like the idea that Adolin showing a darker side allows Shallan to see him more as a real person and she starts to open up to Adolin about some of the dark things she's done. I suspect Adolin thinks Shallan wouldn't hurt a fly so he'd probably be rather shocked to find out she killed someone the day before he met her for the first time... for example. I don't particularly like the idea of Adolin and Shallan's relationship getting stuck / going backwards for the whole of book 3 due to the murder. Just seems too predictable (ie boring). Also, it doesn't seem like much of a challenge. Also, if Adolin is imprisoned or similar and their relationship has gone bad then they have no reason to meet - ie in such a scenario they basically wouldn't interact much for the entire book. Again, this just seems dull. Some have theorised that Adolin will revive the spren in his Shardblade. I like this idea and if he gets stuck in prison for a long time then this would be the ideal opportunity. It would allow for him to end the book on a very positive note too - maybe come to the rescue of the others when the crem hits the fan. Though I also do agree with others that yet-another-Radiant-Kholin is getting a bit much without a really solid reason behind it (for all we know Galivar was a Bondsmith before Dalinar and did something). I do want to see Shallan go head-to-head with Ialai. Early in WoR she fears the Alethi court will eat her alive. I'd like to see her prove to herself otherwise and also give some of the nasty Brightladies a good kicking. I want Dalinar to get challenged over morals etc (so that he can grow). He's had it far too easy so far - the other Highprinces are too obviously wrong compared to him. His heart is in the right place but his view on humanity is too simple. He needs to be challenged in this regard and I think Shallan would be well placed to constructively challenge his assumptions - not because she's a paragon of morality but because she's faced lots of difficult decisions already where there is no obvious right answer (which is not to say that Dalinar has faced none/few!). Dalinar has many difficult decisions to make - not just in how to save the world but also how to unite people and make it a better place. These are not things he's used to. Hopefully, the whole situation with Adolin and Sadeas will allow him to realise the consequences of his actions and inactions - my view is that Adolin would not have had to do what he did if Dalinar had handled Sadeas better. Renarin definitely needs to be involved in the plot more. I'm not sure what I want with Kaladin and Jasnah. I don't particularly want them to be in the background for most of the book but I don't want to see some boring side quests either though I think them being outside of Urithiru would be a good opportunity to see what's happening "on the ground" with the Everstorm etc.

It probably doesn't help when I briefly reply to posts that are a few days old but I've been rather busy lately. I'll try again since that's not really what I intended with my previous post Aleksiel, I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth but from what I've seen, your main expectation for Shallan's reaction to finding out Adolin killed Sedeas is something like "That's just the sort of nasty thing my father would do! DO NOT WANT!" Now, we certainly don't know how Shallan will find out about Adolin's involvement and her reaction could change a lot depending on circumstances. However, if she was to have a strong negative reaction and also be reminded of someone else, I would expect her to be reminded of Kabsal and not her father - ie the guy who was nice to her but turned out to be a nasty killer. (side note: assuming they make it there at all, I'm not expecting Shallan's brothers to turn up any time soon. The journey from the Davar estates to the Shattered Plains looks like it'd take about 2 in-world months under normal circumstances.) What I was saying in my previous post was that I am expecting Shallan to compare Adolin's situation with Sadeas to Nan Balat facing their father down on her own - not because Adolin knows about Nan Balat (Shallan doesn't seem to have talked about her family much at all with Adolin) but because there are obvious similarities that she could see: Sadeas is the nasty evil older guy and Adolin is the younger guy who's been agitating to do something for ages when nobody else was... and finally does (which is roughly what happens in the last flashback chapter). The personalities involved and the end result are different for sure but it's the setup for the fateful confrontation that's similar. For her to react this way this would require Shallan to already view Sadeas in a negative light. They've never actually met but I think this is very likely: on Shallan and Adolin's first proper date, Adolin describes what happens at the tower in tWoK - that directly leads to Shallan coming up with the plan for Adolin to get a duel with Sadeas. Consider that Shallan expects/hopes to marry Adolin so threats to him and his family would be something she'd take seriously. It's pretty obvious that Sadeas and the Kholins are enemies so Shallan would probably be relieved to find out that Sadeas is dead. Also, when she was scouting Amaram's place Shallan did not like Sadeas's war camp, finding it obviously worse than the others. And finally, Shallan was very nearly "collateral damage" in the attempted assassination on Dalinar - it's only her Radiant powers that stopped her from being a mangled corpse down in the chasms. In short, I think it would be quite reasonable for Shallan to conclude that Sadeas is someone worse than her father. Incidentally, this is how she sees Sadeas the first time (chapter 38, the silent storm): Shallan definitely sees Adolin in a positive light. Overall, he's much better than she had expected - which is why she describes him as a "wonderful surprise". Of course, that by itself could lead to extreme disappointment if he does something she finds unforgivable. Here's a thought: within the story, it's quite possible that Shallan will meet Adolin before she finds out Sadeas is dead - they probably meet quite often. I don't want to argue about probabilities just that it's possible so that we can theorise about it. Now, say that Adolin is cold and distant with Shallan and they go separate ways quickly then later on when Shallan finds out about Sadeas's death and Adolin is implicated then she would remember that meeting and likely be very troubled - and that would be a likely scenario in which she compares Adolin with Kabsal. That's one possibility. However, I think it's more likely that Adolin would be obviously troubled and unable to mask it and Shallan will not let it slide and eventually Adolin breaks down and confesses what happened (with just the two of them in the room). I would expect Shallan to be sympathetic and protective of Adolin in such a situation.

Just a quick reply but: The "conflict" I'm envisioning between Shallan and Dalinar would boil down to arguments about morality and law, similar (though angrier) to the ones between Shallan and Jasnah in tWoK - except that it's Shallan telling Dalinar that his view of the world is too simple. I would actually expect this to help Dalinar long term. Depending on how she hears about it and with what details, Shallan could certainly react badly at first but if she hears Adolin describe it I would expect her to compare his situation to when Nan Balat finally stood to his father (and got his leg broken) - there's actually some interesting parallels there between the situation with Adolin/Sadeas and Balat/Lin, though obviously Adolin is a much more skilled fighter so the end result is different.

Finally gotten around to re-reading the chapter. These bits stood out: To me that reads as fanaticism, with himself as high priest. btw, there's absolutely no guarantee that Taravangian got what he asked for from the Nightwatcher. Quoting The Way of Kings, Baxil's interlude: I see Taravangian having more and more problems with the Diagram. It will diverge more. There will be more things it didn't see coming. I would not be least bit surprised if he tries to "force" events to agree with the Diagram, even if he has to do horrible things.

Posting this quote for relevance to the discussion - chapter 64 (Treasures): Considering that Helaran is the best person she's ever known, I think she's been much more open-minded about it than most characters would. While I'm quote-mining Shallan and Helaran, here's a list of things he tells her in the "Safe things" chapter: I've missed your drawings. I think you could be very good, Shallan. You should practice more I need you to watch the others for me. You need to be strong, Shallan. For them. Draw plants and animals. Don't dwell on what happened. Please do some drawings for me while I'm gone. Of fanciful things. Of brighter days. Compare this to what she does (and keeps on doing). I don't know if I should be impressed or creeped out

Old reply time... Well, what she's thinking of in that part is how she hates being "hidden away" (ie locked up / restricted). She says she appreciates the sentiment though - it's not like she has a sense of "Adolin is like my father". I wonder if we'll ever see Shallan get locked up for real. I don't think she'd handle it any better than Kaladin. While he does look for how to create/add conflict in general, including inner-conflict, that doesn't mean all characters have to be in conflict though. Actually, I'd much rather see something different - I think Shallan and Dalinar being in conflict over Adolin would be much more interesting than Shallan and Adolin in conflict directly. Given that Shallan can detect lies more easily than most, it could easily be subverted instead, eg: Adolin behind bars: It's just as well you visited since I didn't want you to hear from someone else: the causal's off, obviously. Being a Radiant and all, it's better you don't associate with the likes of me anyway. Shallan looks shocked/surprised for a second, briefly shifting into anger... but suddenly she has a different look of surprise... then understanding. Shallan, smiling a quiet smile: Being a Radiant and all, you shouldn't try to lie to me, even if it's for my own good. I appreciate the sentiment though. Shallan puts a hand on Adolin's cheek, through the prison bars. Shallan: It's not like I don't understand what you were going through with Sadeas either. Did you forget who came up with the plan with the duel? Shallan continues: You did commit a crime but you might be surprised how popular it made you. If the law has to be followed then why was Sadeas allowed to break it with impunity? I'll see what I can do...

Hehe. Somehow, the phrase "your Desolation or mine?" popped into my head

That's certainly possible... but as I said in the original post, normally such things are for something positive. The Recreance was a very dark day (by all accounts) for humanity and it wouldn't be very nice to be reminded of such a thing. Of course, there are cynical politicians around who would use such things to stoke fear, anger and hatred. It's not a strong argument but there's also two cases where something is tired relative to the Recreance (eg WoR written 200 years after) but it's not phrased like an official date - if the Recreance was calendar 0 then they would probably use some shorthand reference, eg "200 AR"). I could see it happening that calendar 0 was set retrospectively for something positive though - eg maybe some treaty signing between the 5 Vorin kingdoms was later turned into calendar 0.

Thanks Chapter 26 (Stillness): "Those phantom commands to "unify" sounded a great deal like what the Hierocracy had said when it had tried to conquer the world five centuries before." Depends exactly what is considered the Hierocracy. I suspect its something that developed slowly over a long time and eventually the Church became so powerful that nobody could stop it within the Vorin countries and then the Hierocracy started - ie conquest of the world in the name of the Church. So, I think we're basically thinking the same thing. As far as I can tell, Vorinism actually existed since the time of the Heralds: WoR chapter 3 (Pattern): "The church of this era was suspicious of the Knights Radiant, the book read. Yet it relied upon the authority granted Vorinism by the Heralds." That's a quote from one of Jasnah's books so should be reliable. The Recreance is considered the first failure of Vorinism. AFAIK the religion itself has nothing to do with the gender divide - it's purely cultural... just it's associated with the Vorin countries. Yeah, there's just not enough info. I don't remember any quotes indicating exactly how chaotic things were after the Recreance which is why I chose a 300 year time range. The chaos could have been more political or economic. Or, there could have been huge destruction - one of my other ideas is that in the lead up to the Recreance the Radiants were fighting each other and this lead to near Desolation-level destruction and this is what Nalan is referring to in the Lift chapter. There might have been a sort-of "Dark Ages" after the Recreance for sure. We also don't know just how stable things were at year 0 on the calendar. It might have involved some big declaration that was highly optimistic in retrospect

Here seems to be a rough order of noteworthy events starting from Urithiru: Urithiru is built 4500 years ago: Aharietiam, Last Desolation. End of Heraldic Epochs Start of Silver Kingdom Epoch? Urithiru is abandoned The Recreance 1173-4 years ago: start of modern calendar 500 years ago: start of Hierocracy 300 years ago: War of Loss, end of Hierocracy, Sunmaker unites Alethkar However, it's really hard to date the Recreance or what occurred at the start of the modern calendar. I've been doing some quote mining: I've looked around but not been able to find any WoB that help. It's frustrating but we don't have too many comments from expert historians or with dates. Obviously, they don't have carbon dating or the like so it's really hard for people to verify dates - with all the chaos that has occurred, how sure can anyone be of dates of events from long ago? I guess this is why a lot of characters talk about "centuries" rather than millennia. It's also frustrating that it's not entirely clear what the "Silver Kingdoms Epoch" refers to - I suspect its the prosperous period between the Last Desolation and the Recreance, but it's hard to be certain. I suspect that prior to the Recreance that many scholars were in fact Radiants. Maybe they clung to Dawnchant (or derived versions) while the main population was coming up with new languages. After the Recreance there was probably a general desire to separate from the taint of the Radiants, including culture and language. This is probably what lead to the Dawnchant falling out of use and eventually being forgotten. There's no direct references I can see to what was significant about year 0 on the calendar people use - ie what happened 1173-4 years ago. Normally, such events are chosen as something positive but boring. Given Vorin cultural dominance I think it would be something like "founding of the modern era" (as agreed to by the five Vorin kingdoms). Or it could be "founding of Alethkar". I think it would have to be something like this... or some major event none of the characters have referred to ever (which would be weird). It could even be a direct reference to the Recreance though. If that's the case then it's most likely that the Recreance was relatively close. Maybe 1200-1500 years ago, depending on exactly how much chaos/destruction occurred during the Recreance. I think this because the modern Vorin kingdoms only started after the Recreance, because the womens script only started after the Recreance and it's implied that the Hierocracy followed on from the Recreance (which wouldn't make much sense if there was a gap of 4000 years or something). Basically, they seem to be events that are naturally close together. So, maybe after the Recrenace we get something like this: firstly there's general chaos, then various things like the protoscript and male/female role divide occurring. The 5 Vorin kingdoms re-form with slightly new names and the language has moved on. I'm guessing the other kingdoms turned their back on Vorinism after the Recreance. The thing connecting the 5 Vorin kingdoms was religion and the Church becomes increasingly strong over time, eventually leading to the Hierocracy. So anyway, that's my best guess for now - I think the Recreance could be 1200-1500 years ago. It seems to be the last major event before we start getting modern dates. I used to think that the Recreance was actually closer to the Last Desolation but now I'm wondering otherwise. Szeth words seem to imply otherwise and given that the Shin seem to have stayed more or less the same since the Last Desolation maybe they would have more accurate dates? I guess we'll see.