Blaze1616

I think you were right, and I was not quite fully understanding the points you were making. Of course, you are right, we cannot fully control all possible variables once the Spiritual and Cognitive realms are included. In my opinion, any knowledge that can be gained from the experiments we have been discussing would be beneficial. Perhaps you disagree, and if so we'll have to agree to disagree. Can you refill a gem with Stormlight? I don't remember this ever happening. If it is possible, then of course do it this way! I was under the assumption you could not.

Before my full response I want to say a few things real quick. First, I am enjoying this conversation quite a lot, and thank you for participating and not simply dismissing it. Second, when having discussions of this and similar natures in the flesh, some people tend to think I am being rude, or at least they perceive my responses as such. I would like to tell you that I in no way intend to be rude, nor to insult you. As this is a text based medium we are conversing through, it would be easy to give an angry or offensive voice to the words one is reading, and I do not want you to think that such a voice is my intention. This should be simple enough to remove variability. The currency on Roshar is based on gem type, size, and glow. The more rare the gem, the more valuable. The larger the gem, the more valuable. The more glow to a gem, the more valuable (as dun gems are worth less than glowing ones). The point about the glow does not matter so much, but is still a point to remember. Given we know that the better a gem is cut, the more Stormlight it can hold, I feel it is relatively safe to assume that all currency of the same value is cut within an acceptable range (otherwise there would be no currency standards). Two diamond marks have the same value. Given the importance the Rosahran economic system has put on size and glow, it should be a safe assumption that the two diamond marks mentioned will be similarly sized, and similarly cut. Even if they are not, though, the variables you discuss are still controllable, so long as the batch of gems used during the experiments are constant from experiment to experiment. This way, so long as the experiment occurs at the same time relative to the stormwall passing, the same amount of Stormlight is being absorbed. I thought I understood your argument, but your analogy threw me off. As I understand the first paragraph here, you are saying that we cannot know for certain that the glow is due to Stormlight. I argue that we do know. Rosharans do not naturally glow. They only glow once they absorb Stormlight and it begins to escape their bodies. It is the Stormlight which actually glows, which is why gems glow, and why two surfaces lashed together glow (I'm pretty sure they do anyways, but I lack my books to provide you a quote proving/disproving so). Moreover, even if the Stormlight was not the cause, the glow is a direct effect of the individual absorbing Stormlight, and as such luminescence would be a reliable means of measure. As for your analogy to water, I'm not sure why you think the graph would be wrong. A graph of Temperature Vs. Energy Input would initially have a slope as the temperature increases from 70C to 100C, then be a horizontal line as the energy input is used in the phase change. It would then attain a slope again as the water is fully converted to steam. That is the graph that would be generated, and it is correct. More to the point, however, I'm not sure how this relates to the Stormlight discussion. Just because a spiritual/cognitive change might occur, that does not mean we cannot use luminescence as a means of measurement. For example, let us say that Stormlight attracts Seons. Seons are splinters, like Spren, whose physical form is an AonDor character and a bright glow. When an individual absorbs Stormlight, a Seon is attracted and resides in their body, and this Seon is the cause of the glow. The more Stormlight absorbed, the more Seons are attracted, the brighter the glow. In this scenario, when the Stormlight runs out, the Seon leaves, and the glow is gone. The glow is still a viable unit of measure because absorbing the Stormlight still inevitably caused the glow, even though the Stormlight was not the direct cause. Perhaps I have misunderstood you? These are simple things to control though. Obviously a volunteer would be used (or you could force this upon someone ). You place the individual in solitary confinement with just the basic needs (bed, toilet, etc). You implement a feeding regimen. You control the individual's life, thereby controlling the experiment. In addition, if something were to happen right before the experiment (say a stubbed toe), you simply have them absorb Stormlight from a source other than the controlled source, quickly heal, disperse the Stormlight (through breathing or Surging), and commence with the experiment. I'm not sure what your thoughts are on how experimentation occurs. Proper experimentation alters a few variables, though only one is preferred, to see the effect that variable(s) has/have on the results. All the variables that you have mentioned in your post are needed to be taken into account, for sure, but I do not see why you believe the mere existence of them means that no useful results can be generated. Yes it would take time, yes it would be tedious, but yes it can be done in a controlled environment. Even with modern Earth technology, the level of precision you seem to desire is impossible. Science is almost never exact. A conversion between two systems, or even a measuring system within one magic system, is something useful to have. Sure, your results might be rough, but if they are repeatable the question becomes, is rough not enough? For example, the conversion between grams and pounds is 1 gram = 0.00220462... but we roughly estimate this to 1:0.0022. Pi is a number with infinite digits, but we roughly estimate it as 3.14. The ability to compare Stormlight amounts between gems, with accuracy, would be immensely helpful, regardless of whether we are exact or not. Yes, I agree. I merely posited that because Brandon has a conversion, it is constant in both directions.

I agree with you, the glow is a function of Stormlight lost. From Outis' reply, I think s/he does too. Isn't that stated in the books? I see why my wording would make you think I disagreed though...hah... We have no knowledge on any conversions, so it is possible that the 1:12 ratio would hold in both directions. It is also possible it would not, as you have suggested. Given Brandon has stated that there is a conversion, which he knows, it implies the ratio is true in both directions. As we've mentioned, though, there might be some loss when fueling a magic system with another's investiture,and that loss might not be constant in both directions (using your previous example, the reverse ratio could be 10:1, or even 14:1 or higher). As for using lumens, I do think it would work. We know from WoR (and WoK I think) that Kaladin is able to absorb a small amount of Stormlight and his glowing is minimal (small enough to not be noticed in daylight unless someone is looking for it). We also know that when he absorbs more than said "small" amount, his glow is brighter. This would mean that the glow is proportional to Stormlight absorbed. Yes, the ratio might not be 1:1, but perhaps the glow increases 1 lumen for every 5.6 units of Stormlight. Perhaps it is that the lumen measurement is a function of Stormlight instead of a ratio. Regardless, it would be measurable after some experimentation. Now, as for your argument of there being a maxed glow brightness, I agree with you simply because the Kaladin/Szeth battle at the end of WoR had no mention of a blinding glow (if memory serves) when they held a tremendous amount of Stormlight. At this point, time would become a factor. As the Stormlight drains, it will eventually reach that "capped" point and the glow will diminish. Once the lumen:stormlight ratio or function is known, the time it takes for a set amount of Stormlight to drain can be calculated. This, in combination with the time it takes for the luminescence of an individual to start decreasing after absorbing a tremendous amount of Stormlight, would allow a calculation of how much Stormlight was originally stored. Your next argument would then probably be that the Stormlight drains at different rates depending on how much the individual is holding (I'm pretty sure this is mentioned in WoK or WoR). This, though, is still measurable. It would require a relatively large store of gems of equal value and size (emerald broams, for example). A set amount of time after a stormwall hits (anywhere from 5 minutes to 5 hours, so long as it is constant between experiments), have an individual absorb all the Stormlight from the gems, and record how long it takes for all of the glow to dissipate. Repeat this for different amounts of gems (and therefore Stormlight), and eventually a function will be capable of being formulated. In the end, it should all still be possible, and except for the lumen portions the experiments can be performed at Roshar's current technology level. The results might be a bit rough, but you can't really expect more until technology advances (stopwatches, for example). I'm sure that, eventually, there will be a means within the Cosmere to directly measure Investiture, but until then I don't see how an exact, definitive answer can be achieved.

Ah, but Stormlight makes you glow. there just happens to be a unit for measuring glow, or luminescence, known as the Lumen in the SI system. By measuring the intensity of the glow, as well as the time the glow is sustained, we could, theoretically, create a standard unit of Stormlight. Then, once this is complete, we perform the experiment I described above. As you have said, Stormlight could be lost through other means, but this could, potentially, be noticeable in the luminescence loss. This would then mean we would have the Awakener load up on Stormlight, much more than we know would be required, and simply test how much is lost through the act of Awakening the Lifeless. If you meant, however, that the 2 units lost in your example occur after having left the Awakener, but before bringing the Lifeless to...uh...life, that would be much harder to keep track of. I'm not even sure if it would be possible, and so the conversion might go down as 12 units rather than the actual 10. However, those 2 units are still mandatory for any future conversions, and so the conversion of 1:12 would still hold true. It is possible, though, that the number of units lost in conversion is a function of the Breaths used, though, and so we would need to test on objects other than creating a Lifeless that would require more than 1 Breath. Man, research is awesome! I really wish we could do these experiments.

Welcome. Have an upvote. Read Warbreaker.

Okay, I see. I definitely do not think the energy is incorporated directly into the Returned, because the Returned is sustained for one week regardless of their activities being strenuous or not. I believe, instead, that the Breath is stored in a more "raw" form of investiture. As we know from WoB, the "spark of life" is a form of investiture: We also know that Returned are very unlike their undead cousins the Lifeless. Both must die as a human before they can become what they are, but a Lifeless just follows orders, while a Returned has free will (to an extent, anyways). Perhaps the Breath that is consumed is converted to replace the "spark of life." This does not, though, explain why the "spark" fades and eventually disappears though.

What if Returned simply cannot "own" Breath? Being Splinters of Endowment, perhaps all of their "property" is really Endowment's "property," and the transfer process is one week. This is just a wild stab in the dark. Maybe I am missing something, but is there a specific reason behind the logic that Breaths must be partially consumed to provide energy for a whole week? Why is it not possible that, after receiving the Breath and consuming it, the Returned has one week's worth of energy?

I was not trying to give a concrete amount, but was merely stating that I think a single unit of Stormlight is less raw investiture than one Breath, and therefore Vasher would need to consume more than one unit of Stormlight each week. I agree that it has to be measurable, as your WoB points out, but it is not like we can just run the experiment you propose. I also think that the "jury-rigging" Brandon mentions when discussing crossing the magic systems would make the experiment you propose much harder to perform. The easier method, in my opinion, would be to instead create a Lifeless using Stormlight. We know that the creation of a Lifeless uses exactly 1 Breath, so for a "clean" conversion between the two systems that should be the easiest experiment. That, though, brings the question of whether or not the Stormlight would then dissipate and the Lifeless would again die. Again, though, none of this matters because, unfortunately, we are not in the Cosmere (and if we were, our chances of being a worldhopper are slim). On the bright side, we know Brandon has a conversion, so he must have thought about the experiment that the characters would need to perform to achieve that ratio.

This "power" of Endowment, if you will, then manifests in the magic system itself. I like this theory. Kudos to you Moogle!

That clears it up. Thanks. It's a nice theory, but the retaining of Breath could also be a result of the Breath being an innate investiture, unlike all the other investitures we have thus far seen. I like the concept of Endowment, well, endowing Nalthians with the investiture, but I wonder if that is not just a result of the Breath being innate.

So are you suggesting that there is a constant flow of Breath through every individual born on Nalthis, and that when giving up your Breath you are instead just rewriting your personal stream to flow into someone else? Perhaps I am misunderstanding your use of the term "leaks." In all the examples given, the leaked investiture never returns to the holder (not directly, anyways). Stormlight, once leaked, is gone until you intake more. The Dor, as I've come to understand it, is a vast amount of investiture that is waiting to be released, and so it leaks from the Elantrians (and like all investiture ends up returning to the "pool" it originated from). I understood the mists to act similarly (both being gaseous investiture). Unlike these, though, Breath persists. An individual who has attained the third heightening will maintain that heightening all their life so long as they don't give up or lose their Breath (unless I've missed something?). Does my post even make sense?

You must also remember that there is no known conversion between magic systems as of yet. 1 gram of metal has no conversion into stormlight. Does 1 gram of bronze = 1 diamond broam of stormlight? What about the fact that the gems leak Stormlight naturally? How do we account for different metals burning at different rates? Those questions are merely a small fraction of the total amount of questions regarding the power levels of Allomancy and Surging, and does not include Awakening, AonDor, Forging, or Feruchemy. The only real comparison that can be made is between Breath and Stormlight, currently. A WoB has stated that Vasher is residing on Roshar because "something" is more abundant. Considering Vasher requires Breath to live, moving to Roshar gives him access to a different, albeit similar, investiture that does not require him to steal the "souls" of people. I feel this "something," then, is the investiture of Stormlight. It is clear, to me anyways, that Vasher is using Stormlight to keep himself alive. So how much stormlight does Vasher need to hold to equate the one Breath consumed every 8 days? I personally believe that it is going to be greater than 1 "unit" of stormlight, which would imply that Stormlight is "weaker" than Breath, but then Stormlight is more abundant, as Brandon said, which causes the systems to be more similar. In addition, Breath can be re-absorbed after use in most cases, but Stormlight cannot. So really there are no clean conversions right now. I would, therefore, say that it cannot be said that one magic system "consumes" more investiture than another.

WoB that the all humans have investiture. Also Nightblood (character) spoilers. I'm not sure what this means, though. If the Spark of Life is investiture, can you store that?

Well we know they can do something, because the Ars Arcanum does not specify Nicrosil Ferrings as Nicrosil Gnats like it does for Aluminum and Duralumin. This would imply that something can be done. Edit: After having hit the Post button it occured to me that the "Gnat" term might have only been used for Aluminum and Duralumin Mistings. I do not have my book with me, nor is there a picture on the internet to confirm.

Ah, okay, I get it. So in reality, all the magic systems are rather rigid. I was furthering my confusion by not fully understanding the Cosmere definition of Foci. Thanks! Given what we know, then, it would definitely seem, as you say, that bonds are the focus for Surgebinding. In addition, we've seen that intent plays a major role in just about all of the systems other than Surgebinding so far (at least, I cannot think of an example where it mattered), and potentially Allomancy, though emotional Allomancy certainly seems linked to intent, as you've said.

In addition, wouldn't Shards looking into the future, and then performing actions to change that future, cause a new future to be had? Wouldn't they see this the first time they looked? Its like and atium v atium fight. By seeing the future, you can change the future, and in doing so the future you saw should be different, an endless cycle. Now, perhaps the Shards grant their holders the capacity to make sense of it all, but I definitely do not think all Shards have future sight, as pointed out by Moogle, and I do not believe there is evidence supporting that Endowment specifically has it.

Okay, so I seem to have been mistaken in my understanding of the Ars Arcanum. I would agree, then, that for fabrials that specifically perform Surgebinding functions gem type probably does not matter, with the exception of Soulcasting. It really does make one wonder why Allomancy would require such specific foci, when the other end-positive systems do not, nor do the end-neutral systems except for Feruchemy. Thanks for taking the time to clarify that for me Moogle!

The problem with your theory is that you include doubling as valid. But I don't recall anywhere where doubling/halving a number is a valid means of achieving the number of importance. Otherwise your theory is valid, just with very little evidence.

Atium. Atium is key. If the Mistborn has Atium to burn, especially lots of it, the Avatar has no chance.

It does. The number of Shards post-Shattering is 16, for example. I was just merely pointing out that 10 is also important, and there are 10 Heightenings. You had also said, in the OP: Bold and underline emphasis added by me. That was all I was trying to point out.

Also, as Mailliw73 has stated without explicitly pointing it out, 10 is an important Cosmere number on Roshar. Extremely important on Roshar. So 10 Heightenings would fit, though I agree with the others that there is not necessarily a bound, but 10 is as high as anyone has achieved.

Once you read Elantris, his novella The Emperor's Soul, is a great read. His other novella's are good too if you can get them. Let's be honest, all his work is good.

That art is great! You should totes upload to the Gallery! Welcome, B-T-dubs. Which of the Sanderson works is your favorite?

Thanks, and editted!

I don't see why the northern Scadrians would view the southerners oddly for not having genetic Allomancy. The northerners themselves have a very large population that cannot use Allomancy or Feruchemy. The southerners, in the situation you've detailed, might view the northerners as strange though. However the situation you've detailed implies they have access to Feruchemy, just not Allomancy. I am excited to see them meet each other for the first time. I'm most interested in what southern Scadrial is like. As a side note, it would be greatly beneficial for the forum if you would run a quick grammar check before posting. Just give your own post a once over before hitting the post button (alternatively just edit your post after posting). I hope you don't read that with a rude tone, I was not intending to be rude. I simply had to read your post a good four or five times to - hopefully - understand what you were saying. Thanks!