Stark

I love that you phrased it as mechanical access, especially seeing as Nightblood has been described as an artificial spren. It makes me feel that Nightblood is something between Spren and Honorblade. Simultaneously more and less than either.

No - Dalinar already named Aladar as Highprince of Information. Adolin will either get Highprince of War, or Highprince of Fashion. It could really go either way...

Well, I think he did just become the Kholin Highprince, right? He is Dalinar's heir, right?

I absolutely love that Renarin echoed some of my thoughts from the 7-9 topic. How he initially thought his difficulty with the blade was linked to his being strange, increasing his sense of inadequacy. How he is terrified at trying to learn something no one can teach him, so experiments only. How Glys was not even sure he could take swordform... It makes me feel so much better that he is finally talking to his brother. As for Syl's bias against Adolin, well, that is really simple. She outright says that he is swinging around one of her dead sisters by her feet. I know I would be quite violently biased against anyone who did the same with my family. Syl is being downright generous and kind about her bias and distrust of him when you think about that. Be fun to see what shakes loose from Adolin's knowledge that his sword used to be a person. Or, if he can get one of the Radiants to touch it for him, so he can hear the spren, like what happened to the guy in the duel with Kaladin...

Other new thoughts: Is Rlain a squire too? Will he be able to use the surges?Syl has to go under or around doors, not through them, requiring space. Even intangible she must respect the physical constraints of matter? Or is it the cognitive concept of a door/wall keeping things out that she must respect? Also, on my first reading, that storeroom that was raided? I really felt that between the few injured townspeople, and the really bad drawings from the Ardent, mixed with the really shaky descriptions of the voidbringers (barely more than standard parshmen with some myth gloss applied) that the town was trying to con him. They disappeared their own stores to get aid from the king or something, after hearing about the generous radiant going around giving away free money. I still don't trust that small town, though finding that they also stole boats diminishes my suspicion a bit. I agree with everyone, what is with the contracts? Are they going out of their way to make Dalinar look sketchy to the other leaders? And the number of times spren spy curiously on private moments - from Syl watching sex, to pattern trying to figure out pooping and being in the baths, this is just weird. Maybe the radiants died out in part due to unreleased sexual frustration from never wanting to have to answer curious spren questions in the moment?

He also may have started with "I have your niece who happens to be a Radiant too." He literally would have no reason to obfuscate that, as they would see her immediately on arrival. So I don't think Jasnah is with Mr. T.

Oh jeez. Syl the sex ed coach. The Sylblade. Kaladin already being jaded at being the radiant. Renarin using progression. Adolin musing with Gallant and feeling guilt over Sureblood. All the negotiations being exactly as rocky as one would expect when the world's greatest warlord asks if he can teleport troops directly inot your capital. Mr. T appearing. With a Radiant in tow, what the hell? Renarin's Glysblade. Too much to comment on coherently without reading it all again. But I have to say, my theory that Elhokar will be Odium's champion due to a budding resentment to Dalinar took a severe hit today. That said, saying you don't resent someone, and actually not resenting them are not the same thing. But, I am pretty sure we can put to rest the idea that a Kholin will be the champion of Odium. So maybe the champion will be a Son of Honor? They wanted all of this to come back anyway? And the voidbringers are getting different forms than the Stormform and sailing off for some reason? Why, where to?

@lastofus I will point out that I have discounted both Szeth and Eshonai for a few reasons. The Sons of Honor, developing a writing system that cuts out women, could be viewed as heretical by some of the more conservative Ardents. And their fascination with the return of the Radiants would be definitely heretical, given the church's view on them post Recreance. So I think they are still valid. As for the Heralds, well, we have seen that they have numerous names, and have taken different guises. Dalinar did see Nohadon in a vision. But that does not mean he would instinctively know he was talking to a Herald. But you are right, the Nohadon we saw in the vision was not behaving the way we would expect a Herald with more knowledge of the situation to respond. That said, these visions are constructs of Honor's devising, acting a bit like pre-programmed holodeck tapes. Dalinar has agency within them, and the people inside respond to him. That does not strike me as memories being replayed, but constructs. We have no guarantee that Tanavst made interactive recordings of memories, or designed his own narrative from scratch. We don't know if these scenes happened as displayed for real, or even at all. We know the first is a pure construct thanks to the Stormfather. Others could be too. We can't tell for sure. Yet.

I am going left field and saying Elhokar. The nephew who tries, and tries, and tries, and keeps failing. Dalinar's Tien. The king who is so bad at Kinging that he gave up his throne, however temporarily, to a one-armed Herdazien. The one who is so paranoid about the voices he hears and faces he sees in the mirrors that those close to him stop taking him seriously. He is Gavilar's rightful heir, but he does not hold a candle to his sister. His wife is a disaster. His kingship is in such shambles that people would rather go to his crazy uncle than him. Even his useless cousin is now more relevant than him, as the first Truthwatcher in centuries, that we know of. And then his uncle marries his mother. So many different seeds of resentment planted by necessity, I can see him easily growing to hate Dalinar and his sons, as well as those that protect him. The head of his bodyguard almost allowed a plot to assassinate him to succeed. No one values him, and many see him as a joke, despite his ability with the plate and blade. A lot of people are looking at Renarin because he is creepy. I am looking at Elhokar because he has a lot to resent, some justifiably. And it is really easy for resentment to blossom into hatred. Especially if that which you resent makes perfect sense, and is justifiable. Elhokar is losing his grip on everything that is his by right of birth by degrees, and there is nothing that he can do about it. And those responsible have nothing to say but "Oops. I know we shouldn't have, it was an accident, we did not mean to. But done is done, and it just is more efficient this way. So we are going to keep doing it. No hard feelings?" And no spren has bonded him. My bet is on Elhokar of the nine shadows becoming the champion of Odium that could destroy Dalinar better than any other, not through strength of arm, but by attacking Dalinar's guilt, and relationship to his new wife.

Yes Jasnah is heretic, according to Vorinism, but then so is Dalinar now. Jasnah seems like far too obvious a choice. I don't think a Kholin wrote this book. Szeth is also a heretic, one who kills rather than grow. One who walks on stones without hesitation. One who was labelled Truthless. He was bound by his Oathstone, which he brought to each new master, literally bringing the symbol of his oath. And he did appear to die, and in the process may have glimpsed the CR. I discount him as well however, as his mind is likely still too far shattered to write this book, yet. Eshonai is a good choice. There is the apparent death of falling into the chasms. There is the metaphoric death of having her personality subsumed by the void. But she was more explorer than scholar. And I don't see how the title, Oathbringer, would factor into any of her writings, unless she is the first listener to bond a radiant spren, bringing the oaths to her people. I feel that we need to look at the Sons of Honor as well. They desire to bring back the Heralds and the Radiants, a heretical point of view at best. That would have a focus on Oaths, and bringing them back. It is possible that one of them, Restares maybe, glimpsed the CR after a deal with the Nightwatcher, that changed his life view enough that his previous being 'died'. Or, least likely, but still possible, someone we have not yet met, or heard of directly wrote it. I mean, WoK and WoR were in worlds books written by none of the main characters. So that is possible here too. Though I have heard it mentioned that they think Nohadon was Jezrien. If we tug that thread a bit more, what if every one of the ten books we will hear about was written by a Herald. What if the Herald writes the book that shares the title with the book for their order? Jezrien writes Way of Kings, Shalash writes Words of Radiance, and Ishar, the one who brought Oaths to the orders in the first place, writes Oathbringer?

Syl's little one line reveal has left me with tons of questions about spren gender. We knew at least some spren had gender, purely from our interactions with Syl and Pattern, so that is not big surprise. Finding out that the listeners had four genders made Syl's reveal less of a shock and more of a facepalm-duh-I-should-have-seen-that-coming moment. What has my mental wheels spinning is some of the implications of what she said, mixed with some of what the Stormfather said at the wedding. Personification of an object can affect the gender of its spren? Based on the idea that some of Kaladin's spears were female, but not all of them. Really cool. But how gender fluid are the spren? If a relative of mine has a personified object, lets go with a boat. He refers to it as a female, by its name - does the spren of the boat take the name and gender he has assigned? Now, lets assume that same relative falls behind on payments, or encounters some financial difficulty, and is forced to sell the boat, or its repossessed, or stolen, whatever. The new owner starts to refer to it as male, and maybe changes the name. Does the identity of the spren change? Does the spren transition to male gender with a name change, or does the boat get a whole new spren? Or, if the original identity had been in place for many years, does it remain for a period after the change in ownership because the identity has been that of the previous name and gender for so long? How quickly does that transition happen? This is fascinating to me. Never mind the Theseus paradox (applying to the spren of the various changed pieces, if I remove the engine to service it, is it still part of the boat's spren, or does it get a temporary engine spren? What if I replace it entirely, what then happens with the spren? Or does it only matter how I perceive it, as just an engine, or the boat's engine determine the spren count and gender?) Now to tie in with the wedding. Oath's belong to true spren over subspren. Does gender apply the same way. Can a spren be genderless? If an observer assigns no gender to an object, and no gender has ever been assigned, to say a specific rock, does the rock's spren remain genderless? What if the observers differ in opinion, and the perception of the object's gender is divided, what happens to the spren? Does gender only apply to true spren? If not, can it be more fluid in subspren, who seem to be more easily influenced? So much fascinating discussion to be had, but I would not be surprised to learn that there is actually five genders for the spren, the fifth being the neutral gender, and that the genders are fluid based on perception in subspren, but less so in true spren. Final thought for the shard number theorists out there. The listeners were not originally of Honor or Odium (theorized numbers 10 and 9 respectively). While they did fave a council of five (I think five has been theorized to be Endowment), the longest running number I can think of being linked to them is 4, for their genders. Any theories on which shard is linked to the number 4 yet? Might give us a hint as to what shard was the listeners original patron.

I don't think so. Pattern doesn't want to appear in public, and he physically can't go invisible. Syl almost never shows herself as a spren, Kaladin has to ask her. Wyndle hides. Neither Lift or Wyndle saw Stump's spren. The spren in general seem to be shy about being visible to anyone other than their bondmates, Stormfather excepted. But he is big enough that everyone who has dared look at a Highstorm has likely seen him. Even at the big final reveal in WoR, neither Pattern, Syl or Glys made visible appearances (excluding bladeform) when they met at the top of the tower to discuss how Radiant they were and be one-upped by Dalinar who bonded the storm. Spren being shy and invisible is nothing suspicious to me.

I know I'm coming a little late to this part of the discussion, but I don't think Renarin is Odium's champion. Before I say anything else on the topic, I am going to preface by outright stating: I know next to nothing about the Autism spectrum. I have never had anything more than second hand contact with people on the spectrum, and that was in elementary school. Any thoughts I have are based on second hand information from people who are not experts, but have had regular interactions with people on the more complicated ends of the spectrum, or the caricatures we often see in media. This is a subject on which I am ignorant. I feel the best way to cure my own ignorance is to acknowledge it and confront it head on, as it is not a position I enjoy speaking from. That said, even if Renarin was not Autistic to any degree, look at the experiences he's lived. His entire life he has felt inadequate due to his epilepsy, not being able to be a soldier like his father, brother, uncle and cousin. And then he starts hearing a voice, and seeing things that cannot possibly be there as he attracts Glys' attention. The same attention that almost unhinged Shallan when she started seeing spren in her drawings, and Elhokar when he started seeing them in his mirrors. He lsitens to his father talk about his cousin's mounting paranoia, jumping at things that are not real. He must have felt like he was going insane. And then things got worse. He was given the tools to overcome his physical limitations, shardplate and blade. And every single time he touches his blade, it screams in endless pain from its not-life-not-death, making him unable to properly learn. And no one else around him hears the same thing. He must be going crazy, the weak useless son of the great Blackthorn. And then it gets worse still. He starts seeing the future, something his entire religion says is the work of evil, but he can't stop. That has to be terrifying and throw his entire world view into disorder. All of this together must have brought his sanity to the breaking point. And then suddenly, actually its okay, your a proto-radiant, the first of your kind in centuries. Go figure out how to be you on your own, because no one can guide you or help you. You are the pathfinder. If it was me having my view of the world constantly under assault, feeling like I was going mad over months and months, constantly feeling useless? I'm not sure I would believe it when suddenly I find out I'm one of the most important people in the world. I'd be concerned that I'd finally snapped and was insane. But then the world re-asserts itself. Captain McBroody learned this all on his own in the chasms when people where actively trying to get him killed daily. My brother's fiance, and her teacher, my cousin, were self teaching on the other side of the world, and if not fully competent, are self confident in their abilities. My Dad twists the metaphorical arm of the father of storms into a bond almost against its will and starts dominating by force of will, confirming (maybe, regarding nine shadows) things that have been giving me nightmares. And I'm still the useless one that broke down and scribbled on walls. The one thing I have heard consistently about autism, is that it makes adaptation to change difficult. Everything is changing, yet he still feels the same - inadequate. So yeah, I can forgive Renarin for not knowing how to fit in, for staring almost creepily at what others cannot see, but he must finally accept as real, and for acting really odd as he tries to adapt to find that his last few months were not normal, but that doesn't make him crazy. He has a lot of growing to do now, and not a lot of time to do it, which is probably why he is slotted for being a key character in the second arc of five. But none of that screams Champion of Odium to me. I do feel that the champion will be someone we have already met, not a new character introduced for the sake of being the villain, but it won't be Renarin. I think Moash, or Mr. T have a better chance of being the champion than Renarin, who is just trying to find his way. And I don't think they are good fits either.

Not while learning. Kaladin did a lot of things by accident, like lashing the arrows to the bridge on his runs. When first learning, they seem to do things unconciously until they learn to harness and direct their power....

Just re-read them for a second time. I need to know if Shallan could not draw the city because she could not get the right perspective, or if it was because there is something other about the tower. Also, Kaladin's anime moment, where he powers up, glows, levitates and summons a spear, before flying off leaving a glowing trail. All we are missing is some windspren swirling around his feet, while small pebbles levitate and his hair turns blond.

I almost feel like Dalinar acted like a Blue Lantern. Not too much power on his own, and no real offensive capabilities. But he can super charge the others. Which would make sense, that a Bondsmith would require a bunch of willing supporters to back them up.

I'm going to jump into the train of being happy Rlain is still with Bridge Four!

I know, I know. It makes sense. Dalinar even runs the logic that all other options died in the avalanche last book. But it feels a little obvious. But I see Adolin and Shallan working on this together. Yeah, I love that some Spren have four genders. Like the Listeners have four genders. Which makes me wonder about Listener specific spren. Also, assigning a gender to your belongings can affect the gender of its spren, love this.

I must admit I'm a little disappointed that Adolin got assigned to investigate his own murder. I do like that someone is copycatting him. And I really want want to know what exactly our Truthwatcher is seeing... I'm glad Kaladin grew up, a bit, belatedly. And I love that the scribe was trying to ask Shallan to be her Wonder Woman! And the Bondsmith can draw on others to use their powers in new ways? Interesting.

If you are going hunting for triangles, Elantris sort of has one too. Both Hrathren and Raoden do develop feelings for Sarene. Though one does not admit his feelings until the end, and the other complicates things unnecessarily with a mistaken identity bit. I think the reason most people object to Rosharan triangle is that it most closely resembles the more infamous Twilight/Hunger games format, where two characters are pursuing the third openly (though Kaladin is not openly pursuing Shallan, yet) with the third having an internal Will I/Won't I? dialogue regarding which choice to make. Thankfully, It has not gone there yet, Shallan has not expressed any desire to break off from Adolin too pursue Kaladin, and hopefully it never will, but I think that is what most people object to. The mistborn triangle is described quite well by @LunarFire Vin never seems to see Zane as a potential romance interest, but someone who can understand her while she workks through her self-worth issues related to Elend, someone she genuinely cares for, whose entire view of her for a long time was built on a lie. Elantris - Raoden and Sarene flirt through a mistaken/hidden identity and rivalry, while Hrathren is trying to save the country, and eventually the woman he has come to admire as a worthy opponent that he truly cares for in spite of all else.

Power Thirst! It's like Investiture in a can! It's Investiture in a Can! It's INVESTITURE! Drink our Liquid Awesomness and Darkness will never hold you down again!

You are absolutely right. It is the same reason why Lift can't derive benefit from eating plants she makes grow - Energy must be conserved. The amount of energy required to transmute base materials to god materials is so massive, as to be virtually impossible. And if you had enough raw power available to fuel such a transmutation, you are likely far and away beyond actually needing the raw material. My belief, however flawed it may be, hinges on the idea that Aluminum was invested pre-shattering, but lost it during the shattering as the 16 pulled power into themselves. The act of 1ad of Investiture (Using Adonalsiums as the base unit of investiture) being split into 16 semi-unique distinct parts forced the 'new' Investitures to create their own godmetals, following the template left by the previous holder of the power, seeing as they could not all conceivably use the same metal, but leaving an aftereffect on that metal. SO yeah, I have a lot of thoughts, zero proof, and tons of conjecture, that if we are lucky we will learn enough about to disprove or prove sometime in the next 15 years... We need more info. Until then, please keep poking holes in my ideas, it forces me to abandon the untenable ones, or better defend the others. I don't have the proof yet, but I'm still convinced that Aluminum is linked to Adonalsium somehow.

Very good point to counter my thoughts. Hopefully tomorrow, when our number of available examples increases by 50% we will be able to further narrow down the list of suspects. I am still heavily wary of looking in the expected directions, but a lot of people are bringing up really good points. I can't wait to see how it all shakes loose!

Except that the sixteen divided up Adonalsium's Investiture among themselves. They split him apart like a giant pizza and devoured the investiture, leaving only the Aluminum pizza box behind, empty of all the goodness, but inert. I just re-read that analogy. Its terrible, but I'm blaming it on cold medication, and everyone in my office who got me sick in the first place. But I'm leaving it. Anyway, the Investiture is split among the sixteen, which is why you can't find it, to my mind. But the vessel remains, as Aluminum. And if I want to be whiny, I could point out that Zahel is not Rosharan. But chances are that he knows what Aluminum is. So you have a point there. But I am pretty sure you cannot Soulcast Aluminum into something else.

I have felt for a while now that Aluminum was Adonalsium's God metal. My reason for this is that Adonalsium was involved in everything, so the remains of his Investiture should be threaded throughout the Cosmere. Aluminum is everywhere, even on planets created post shattering. And it always has a dampening, or nullifying effect on the investiture of the local shard. Almost as if it is the complementary wavelength that brings all other investitures back to normal. If it was just a Scadrian phenomenon, I would discard this, but we see it as the unforgeable metal, and involved in the blunting of Shardblades. It is everywhere. In Feruchemy, it allows you to store Identity and it's alloy lets you store Connection, two things you would expect to be involved in the body of the God who was everywhere, shared identity and connection to everything. As for the Aluminum being on the Scadrian metal table, well, we've had a fake-out there before. At the very beginning, when they thought there were only 10 metals, they paired Gold and Atium together. Seeing someone else's future, and seeing your own past. When that got expanded to include Electrum and Malatium, we had two pairs that complemented each other. Gold and Electrum that let you see you own past/future, and Atium/Malatium that let you see someone else's future/past.The fakeout was that Atium was a God metal and in a table of its own. And no other quadrant is that perfectly complementary in era 1. However, in Era 2, we have Aluminum and duralumin that alternatively drain or explode your reserves paired with Chromium and Nicrosil which drain or burst someone else's reserves. Exactly the same complementary pairings we saw with era 1's gold and Atium. The simple beauty of it is, already have been duped by this fakeout in Era 1, we would never suspect it again in Era 2. Fool us once shame on Brandon, fool us twice, we should have seen it coming. And once the scholars of Scadrial had 16 metals that apparently fit, why keep looking? Experimenting with bad metals is dangerous for Allomancers. I would not look at this, except, Aluminum affects investiture on other planets too, by "blocking" it. It even affects Scadrian investiture weirdly, by blocking soothing and not reacting to pushes or pulls. So I really feel that Aluminum is Adonalsium's God metal, put into play in the second Cosmere novel and hidden behind an identical fakeout with a local God metal, just waiting for Sanderson to pull the rug out from under us. Or maybe I'm a crazy Cosmere conspiracy theorist... Edit: Information from much later, post Oathbringer: