Blightsong

I'm not so sure. If this was the case than other people's perception of you would change how you would heal. I think this has to do with identity, Which seems to a a spiritual aspect.

But we know that the cognitive realm is how people world hop. We also know that the Dor resides in the Cognitive realm.

Thinking this through a bit more, we don't even know if he was at Elantris for 10 years. He could have been there for a bit, left, came back, ect. We don't actually know if he was there for a consecutive 10 years. If he did manage to trap himself, we know he can bascily travel forward in time, he didn't have to wait out the issue.

I doubt this will ever happen. All countries have individual cultures within them. Even cities have individual cultures within them.

While there would only be one country or government, different cultures and ways of life would still exist through the planet. It would probably still be the same.

Agreed. I think this is further proved by the fact that shardworlds still have a small level of magic, even when not invested by a shard. I don't think that the spiritual realm is exactly timeless. This being true would just make so many different things strange. Shards would probably be able to change the past and future, as well as perfectly predict the future. Humans would be born instantly with all the effects that would ever come to pass on their spirit webs. Snapping wouldn't really make sense. Anyways, I'm pretty sure Brandon has said that time DOES matter in the spiritual, but not space. It's late and I can't find the WoB but I'm sure I've seen it.Back to what you said about Spren and how they have changed, Confused, I don't think human definition of these true ideals can be shifted. I disagree that in this case things do not exist until defined, I think that the ideals of the spiritual realm harbor the true and absolute existence of all things, separate from what humans think or label them as. I think one of these spiritual templates changing based on how they are perceived as likely as the same happening to a Shards mandate. The spiritual realm in general is very strange and philosophical, I don't think we really know enough to guess at these types of things, I'm just trying to explain my thoughts based on what we have seen throughout the text. Your thoughts?

I actually have the same problem, don't worry about it. I don't think that the words used to describe the Spren are particularly relevant. Yes, word's meanings often change but they aren't based off of words, they are based off of unchanging ideals (this is WoB supported). It isn't this ideal that changes but how people view it. This can be drastic but only to a certain degree. This is why Brandon said that you will always find Honor or Cultivation at the root of their motives.

But how do we know it was too dangerous for Hoid? How do we know it wasn't too dangerous in the first place? Why wouldn't he just go to Dominion's shardpool? Even if that Shardpool was hard to get too he had ten years based on this theory.

I'm still not seeing any connection between the shardpool and the Reod. The perpendicularity itself was obviously undamaged, I guess I could see AonDor becoming more violent because of a lack of an outlet, but Brandon has never alluded to the Reod being connected to this violence, he has always said that it was because Aona and Skai were shattered. I'm not even sure that Elantris being invested would even give that power an outlet, much less enough of one. I just feel like this theory is grasping at loose straws with the little information we have.

I agree with most of what Confused said. I also do want to point out that the WoB about lying specifically relates to Windrunner Spren. The question I asked was about Windrunner Spren and most of that answer was as well. I don't think the tone converted well to text, but the conversation was specifically about Windrunner Spren. As for different shards creating different magic systems with different affects on the same planet, I think you are mistaken. These different magics, like Elantrians and Soulforgery, are the same magic system in the way that Gravitation and Ilumination are the same magic. They are part of the same magic set but have different effect, giving the illusion of different magic. I assume this also goes for the magic on Scadrial. As for Spren and how they have changed, this is how I have interpreted it; there is a platonic ideal that all these Spren are based off of. The change that we see occur in the Spren are dependent on how humans perceive that platonic ideal and how they personify it. So the template is the same but how the template is seen changes and evolves. This is why I don't think that the nature of these Spren could have changed too much.

Ok, so I got a response from Brandon and its... Non conclusive. We're both kind of right, you moreso, and he didn't really answer the question that was most relevant. WoB below, give me your thoughts. from mistborn sent 28 minutes ago Yes, the way humans perceive and personify spren has affected them. Beyond that, the sapient spren have all evolved as species, and have their own autonomy. But at the root of their motives, you'll find some aspect of Honor, Cultivation, or combination of the two. permalinkdeletereportblock userreply

We know that travel through Perpendicularities was not damaged, we have many examples of Zombie Elantrians being dropped into the pool and being transported through it.

I highly doubt that Adonalsium was unable to act. I think that rather, he was had his own personality and was just a being until he was shattered, the which the power gained intent. If he was useless, I highly doubt he would have been able to create planets, galaxies, beings, ect. Sazed sheds some light onto this in the Epigraphs of The Hero of Ages. "By sacrificing most of his consciousness, Preservation created Ruin's prison, breaking their deal and trying to keep Ruin from destroying what they had created. This event left their powers again nearly balanced—Ruin imprisoned, only a trace of himself capable of leaking out. Preservation reduced to a mere wisp of what he once was, barely capable of thought and action. These two minds were, of course, independent of the raw force of their powers. Actually, I am uncertain of how thoughts and personalities came to be attached to the powers in the first place—but I believe they were not there originally. For both powers could be detached from the minds that ruled them."

I'm not so sure that Hoid's attempt at becoming an Elantrian is related. I recently asked Brandon if Hoid had tried to become and Elantrian Relevant WoB. Secret History spoilers.

I think for a lot of your post you ment to say Pattern instead of Wyndle. Magestar said pretty much what I was going to about the platonic spiritual ideal. I do however think that Cryptics appear when one lies, or at least when someone is untruthful to themselves. I think that their attraction to their Proto-Radiant is similar in nature to how normal emotion and nature Spren are attracted,mthere are just less of them to do so and they can chose not to. Similar to how a human can chose not to eat or to sleep, but a animal follows their nature almost always. I'm tired of arguing in circles, both of us don't have solid enough proof to convince eachother apperently. I've asked Brandon definitive answers on reddit and I will be back if he answers. Anyways, Nedyah, it seems you are at least fairly new to the forums, welcome. You argue your points well, it's always nice to see new theorists on the forums. I'll get back to this thread soon, hopefully.

You are right, they are not confirmed, I simply think that I have strong evidence for these definitions and I am trying to convince you of them. If we had confirmation I wouldn't have to argue this point. You are only half correct when talking about Spren here. Spren are not just living human ideas. They are a lying embodiment of how humans personify a spiritual ideal. While how humans personify them can change, the actual spiritual ideal that they are based off of them does not change. So yes they are changed by perception, but their very nature, their spiritual make up, does not change in the same way. I think that if those Spren were any different Dalinar would have remarked on it during his visions. He never actually talks about a Spren during his flashbacks, but if he didn't see them or if anything was different Brandon would have put that in there. There is actually a very good example of such a person in the books themselves; Nalan. He is very convinced of what he is doing, he uses honest means to accomplish them and most likely believes what he is doing is moral. Nonetheless what he does is very cruel.mIm certain that we will see much more of this from actual Skybreakers in the future. I find it rediculous if your argument is that you think her choice to not fly when in human form (or even her inability to) is as important to this discussion as her inability to lie. As you said above, you think my definitions make sense (although they are not confirmed). If that is the case then you see my point as to her inability to lie. Brandon often refers to the ten surges as how the laws of physics are perceived and expressed on Roshar. WoB: INTERVIEW: Mar 21st, 2014 WOR Signing Report - Kurkistan (Verbatim) KURKISTAN Are flamespren, are they all doing their own thing, or is there some Ideal of "Fire" sitting in the Spiritual Realm that they're all based on? BRANDON SANDERSON Each spren is based on the Ideal of Fire. KURKISTAN And is that sitting in the Spiritual Realm? BRANDON SANDERSON Yes, we're using sort of a Platonic Ideal, and that concept is in force, so < sounds hesitant > "yes", but [spren] are manifestations of it. KURKISTAN So these Ideals in the Spiritual Realm: Divine Breath, does that heal by accessing some Ideal of Human Health: so a guy who had never had a tongue and doesn't know how to speak all the sudden has a tongue and can speak? [Note: Talking of Susebron here] BRANDON SANDERSON You are... < LONG pause > You are, um, on the right track. KURKISTAN Okay... BRANDON SANDERSON Because the Breath is... eh. How can I explain this? You are, yeah... So... So each Breath is a shade of deity, right? KURKISTAN Yeah. BRANDON SANDERSON And each Breath incorporates into it this sort of idea of being endowed by the deity Endowment, correct? KURKISTAN Yes. BRANDON SANDERSON And so each Breath you hold brings you one step closer to becoming like that, and so what you're saying is... is "yes", kind of true, yes. KURKISTAN But it's like within the Breath, not sitting off by itself— BRANDON SANDERSON Yes, yes yes exactly. TAGS spren, breath, spiritual realm, warbreaker, stormlight archive, cosmere, INTERVIEW: Feb 25th, 2016 Calamity-Austin QUESTION The ten Surges on Roshar, I think you said are basically a different set of laws of physics. BRANDON SANDERSON Yeah. QUESTION Are those laws of physics consistent throughout the Cosmere? BRANDON SANDERSON Um, yes, to an extent. You would consider, like - it's kind of weird because I based them on the idea of the fundamental forces, but this is kind of like a human construction. Like you could say that physics is pure and natural, but we're still putting things in boxes. And the scientists on Roshar would for instance consider being able to travel between the Cognitive and Physical Realms as a force, the thing that pulls people back and forth between that, as a fundamental force. I don't know if it would fit our definition of a fundamental force. TAGS Brandon on terminology,

I have been picking the definitions of Honor that I think are supported by the text and different WoB. I've already argued as to why I think those definitions are the correct onesize. When I think of integrity I think of someone who does not waver or hesitate to act and who has a lot of self respect. It means to have a moral compass that doesn't waver. You can do these things and still be evil. I would day that Taravangian has a lot of integrity, but the things he does are not the most moral. I still think that lying is against Honor's nature. There would be no reason for Honorspren to find it difficult if not impossible to lie. That is just the one explanation, there would be no other reason for that to be in the book.

I've already argued this point, honor isnt about altruism. Even so, Pattern, in that example, didn't lie for an altruistic reason. He just did it because he didn't want to tell Shallan what he ended up telling her. As I've said, the fact that Honorspren can be evil proves that Honor isn't about being moral or altruistic.

I don't think lying is there nature. That doesn't really matter. The thing that matters is the fact that they can lie. The tone he did lie want even a life or death situation, he did it as a human would, when he doesn't want to give a specific bit of information. A spren completely of Honor almost definitly could not do this. The WoB I am using very much supports my responses where I use them in my arguement. They aren't direct answers, if i had those this discussion would be over. I actually found a definition of honor is think fits better, I will put it at the end of the post. If truth and honesty aren't a part of the definition of honor than why would Honor spren have a very hard time lying? In your arguement, why would Cryptics be of Honor because of their honesty? honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions: I think that that definition, complements my previous one well and rings true in the context of what we have seen so far in WoB and the story.

A deus ex machina is when something happens and there is no explanation, correct? No explanation. We already knew that how he was revived was possible within the magic system, and that there are fabrials that can mimic the surges, so I wouldn't quite call it a deus ex. It was a little bit of a cop out, though, I understand why people don't like that death. Especially after the end of Mistborn, I would definitely not put it past Brandon to kill off every main character.

This is why I'm so suspicious of Odium's involvement with the diagram. It's just so oppositional to what we have seen from Honor.

All relevant WoB will be down below.In the paragraph you quote I don't think I typed liespren once. In that last post I shied away from using that term because it is misleading. As previously mentioned, however, the name is most likely irrelevant to the sprens nature anyways. Yes, spren are personification of human thought, but that doesn't mean they change at all. Emotion spren are not different in different places based on how the culture there perceives that emotion. There had been nothing in the books or in a interview that points towards this idea being correct. I understand if this is your theory on how spren work, but it is purely head cannon, while I'm trying to argue in plain terms with facts, or at least things alluded to in the text. Either way, I highly doubt that a manifestation built from a power greatly opposed to lying could be warped in such away to be able to do an action completely against its nature effortlessly. Not unless Cultivation was inveloved. All magic systems are not based off of the Shards themselves, they are based off of fundamental laws of the Cosmere and it's planets. How those magic systems are obtained, however, is based off of the Shards. This means that yes, all spren most likely cultivate ideals into their Knights and are attracted to the potential for these ideals. Like I said, does Shallan seem particularly truthful to you? The end goal of truth seems pretty honorable, though, but just the fact that they can act contrary to Honor's intent convinces me that he is part of both cultivation and Honor. It is possible that all end goals include something honarable, however. It would be honorable to keep your oath in that situation. That is probably a situation where Honorspren would lie. But this has nothing to do with morals, it's about honor. Honorspren CAN do evil things they CAN be evil. I have WoB on this, you can't really argue that point, it basicly proves my definition to be correct in this case. There are probably evil Cryptics who would sell the refugees out. The surge of transformation is a fundamental law of that planet, with or without Honor and Cultivation. They just choose how these powers are harnessed. WoB: INTERVIEW: Apr 8th, 2016 OdysseyCon 2016 BLIGHTSONG Can Honor spren, or any other type of Knight Radiant spren, be evil? BRANDON SANDERSON Yes, because I don't call the shards good and evil. There are no good and evil shards in my opinion, like and so, what evil and what's not evil can totally have spren of honor that you would consider evil. They have free will, but they are much more limited. It is very hard, or impossible, for them to lie but they can be cruel. TAGS Spren, honor, knights radiant, INTERVIEW: Aug 31st, 2011 Reddit AMA 2011 (Verbatim) ERIC LAKE () Allomancy provides many very dramatic effects, which some have noted is not very much like Preservation. Could you walk me through how Allomancy is of Preservation, though it does dramatic, dynamic things? BRANDON SANDERSON One of the 'basics' of the magic in all of the worlds is that the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role. I did this because otherwise, the Magics would all be extremely limited. The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do. So, in Preservation's case, the magic is a gift—allowing a person to preserve their own strength, and rely upon the strength granted by the magic. While Hemalurgy has a huge cost, ending in net entropy. TAGS mistborn, cosmere,

This is a completely wild guess, but maybe the things growing out of the lake were representations of how people either view the lake or view life within the lake? So different bodies of water would have different representation like this?

The question I asked was about Honor spren, most of what he said was in relation to Honor spren. As the person who asked the question I can assure as to the context.Edit: I agree that not all spren have difficulty lying, this is most likely because not all spren are of Honor.

Have you read the WoB that was in my post? I'm not the one making the statement, Brandon himself is. How does lying act against a Cryptics nature? In my WoB he was referring to Honor spren specifically in regards to lying, but said that spren as a whole have problems with going against their nature. I've never said that all Cryptics are made up of are lies. I said that they are attracted to people who lie to themselves because it provides an opportunity to cultivate self honesty within them.