Blightsong

It does here, I thought you're comments were based off that, my apologies: This theory was inspired by Calderis' and I discussed these ideas with him before posting so its not by accident that they are similar theories. I agree, "deactivation" of the gemheart could be a possibility within the theory if you mean deactivation as a loss of the gemstone's realmatic functionality entirely, including holding stormlight (which itself is a kind of physical change). They basically wouldn't even be gemhearts at that point in a sense, just hunks of crystal. If you mean deactivation of the gemstones as a loss of the Singer's ability to use their gemstones then I dont agree. In that case they would still hold the value that past Rosharan humans went out of their way to obtain and it just doesn't make sense that all of Rosharan society would suddenly ignore that value to the point of all knowledge of the gemstones being lost. I just dont see another (in Brandons words) "good reason people just don't think that [singers] have a gemheart".

I think I made clear in the first part that I dont believe it was the trapping of Ba-Ado-Mishram that caused the damage to the Singers, just that it was involved (obviously). I think that the line in that relevant gem archive epigraph was a red herring due to the below quote and that Melishi somehow used Ba-Ado-Mishram's Connection to the Singers to destroy them either during or after the imprisonment. Edit: I also want to add that the trapping of an Unmade doesnt seem to be a Bondsmith only power despite what the gem archive says. Its important to remember that they didnt fully understand this process at the time. I agree that it is definitely possible that a Bondsmith is needed but I personally think that quote is a red herring due to what Shallan learns and the wording during that scene: And later during the end of Oathbringer: Im curious as to what about my logic for the disappearance of the Listener gemhearts you disagree with. On top of the evidence I provided in the OC there is a precedent for physical changes being a natural consequence of spiritual ones so it seems pretty within reason.

I did discuss this with @Calderis yesterday and I havent been totally convinced but that might just be me being stubborn. Is there evidence other than the timeline on the gem archives or the below quotes possible implications on the nature of the Sibling's bondsmith that I should be aware of? If not I do have arguments against those pieces of evidence. Even if Melishi wasnt bonded to the Sibling the parts of the theory that involved what exactly was done to the Singers still hold and I do still think that Melishi's actions would have been against his oaths.

Introduction It's just about time for another extra-long Blightsong theory after the latest few waves of new WoB; the nature of the Parshmen and what was done to them has always been one of my favorite mysteries in the series and Oathbringer brought us to the very edge of it. After reviewing some related WoB I'm pretty sure I can fill in at least some of that mystery with some pretty plausible ideas. Let me know what you guys think! Abstract Melishi First lets start off with what we already know. The event that transformed the Singers into what we saw at the beggining of the series took place at the end of a conflict between the last generation of Knights Radiant and a group of Singers lead by the Unmade Ba-Ado-Mishram. Innovation on the side of the Unmade, an ability to Connect to the Parshmen and facilitate forms of power, pushed certain scholar's within the orders of Knights Radiant to devise a before unheard of strategy to defeat the forces of Odium. They planned to trap Ba-Ado-Mishram in a gemstone like the one that Dalinar used to trap Nergaoul in an attempt to break the Connection she had to the Singers and ensure an easy defeat of the enemy forces once their leader and powers were incapacitated. This almost as far as our knowledge goes, but an epigraph in Oathbringer implies that maybe some unintended consequences of this imprisonment is what destroyed the Singer, read it below: While this may be the case, I have become certain that this is a red herring due to the little bit of history from this time frame we do have past the above point, read the below epigraph from both the in-world and real world Words of Radiance: This is interesting not only because there seemed to be a change of plans from simply imprisoning Ba-Ado-Mishram and defeating the Singers in battle, but also because we can say for certain that trapping an Unmade is not a Bondsmith specific power as evidenced by Shallan's view of Re-Shephir's past. If this was not what Melishi did to defeat the Singers then what could he have done to destroy them? Lets take a look at how the Stormfather describes Bondsmith powers to get an understanding of what could have taken place here: The wording here is interesting to me. What Melishi did seems to be the opposite of what the Stormfather is describing, he cut the Connection the Singers have to each other and destroyed an entire people with them. Syl had something very relevant to say about the restoration of the Singers in the below quote: It seems as if whatever Melishi did to destroy the Singers was seriously destructive in nature and I have some ideas on what exactly he did to them realmatically. Nature of the Singers A recent WoB tipped me off as to what exact function of the Singer's was destroyed by Melishi, read it below: It seems as if a Singer's Identity is malleable and that their system of trapping a spren with their gemheart is how they change it. Also interesting to note is that Hemalurgy is also able to do something similar. After thinking about it a bit, I realized we have seen something extremely similar to the Parshmen before using that very system. Read the below WoB: This is pretty much a matching description of what we see with the Singers, only missing the whole magic physical object component... or is it? If you think about it, gemhearts and the Hemalurgic spikes responsible for the Kandra blessings seem to be very similar in nature with one very slight difference, gemhearts are a natural phenomenon resulting from a leak of Investiture from the Spiritual Realm to the Physical one. Read the below WoB and passages to get a quick understanding of Singer gemhearts and their nature: This whole WoB is very interesting to me, particularly the connection to Dragonsteel and that last sentence. First let me touch on the Dragonsteel bit here is a passage from the released sample chapters that details the main character encountering the bones of the Dragonsteel equivalent to the Parshendi while in the caverns of the Shattered Plains: This makes me more certain that gemhearts are more than just gems that allow a singer to transform, I think that they are tied to their other Cognitive abilities as well as the race in this world are also able to communicate telepathically similar to the rhythms. I also find the color similarity between these bones and a gemheart very interesting. For my second point about the above WoB, why would there be an assumption that Singers dont have gemhearts among humans. Wouldnt some physician be able to find it in a Parshmen at some point? This is even more confusing when you consider that this seems to be a lost knowledge, read the below quote from Venli: All of this together leads me to believe that the pieces of a Singer's soul that Melishi ripped away (ones that seems similar to what gives a Kandra's sapience and blessing) are the ones directly tied to the Singer's gemheart and that on top of the physical change wrought to their bodies that made them more like dullform they also had their very gemhearts taken from them like a Kandra losing its second spike. While I cant tell you exactly how Melishi did this all, I can say it did still likely involved Ba-Ado-Mishram seeing as how the Last Legion, Singers that had abandoned their Connection to their gods, were left unaffected. Consequences of Division My emphasis on how similar this all is to Hemalurgy should tell you just how evil what Melishi did to the Parshmen is. The very nature of this act seems to spit in the face of the Bondsmith oaths, leading one to question how his spren managed through this. I'm sure you all know I'm about to suggest the Sibling was involved because of how obvious it is but let me back up this point with a few more WoB pointing towards its involvement: A strain between Melishi and the Sibling's bond also makes sense within the context of the degradation of Urithiru and the Sibling's apparent "withdrawal from men" described in the gem archive. Conclusion So what do you guys think, is there a relationship between what happened to the Singers and their gemhearts? Did Melishi end up harming the sibling in the process? Feel free to poke holes anywhere you see them. Have a good day folks!

Something important to note is that while "surges" were said to be the cause of Ashyn's destruction that is a very broad term used to describe pretty much any magic on Roshar. The power that destroyed Ashyn was likely not the same as what Ishar warned Nale of and wasn't even of a power related to Honor, read the below WoB: Good point, I've thought about it and you're probably right, I skimmed over that part of your last post and had forgot that quote. Perhaps Surgebinding has the same risks as the system previously used to destroy Ashyn. I find it too large a coincidence that both these systems seem to have extreme and disastrous power.

I might've agreed with some of the ideas in this thread pre-Oathbringer but now that we have a better idea of Ishar's state of mind I'm pretty certain that while the later Oaths may contain some greater powers, Ishar simply lied to Nale about either what those powers were or the ramifications those powers could have. Nale has a blind trust in Ishar and believes him to be sane, meaning that Ishar is already deceiving him about at least one (pretty damnation important) thing. Seems much more likely to me that the Radiants posed no such danger and Ishar was simply manipulating Nale to prevent any kind of Radiant power structure from forming.

I have one thing to add here. This effect Shallan has on people around her is something you are right to notice but not because it is an aspect of Shallan's personality that attracted Pattern. We know that this effect is magical in nature, meaning it likely started with her and Pattern's bond, not before. I do think it is interesting to look at this power through the lens of the uncertainty principle as it could pretty neatly tie in the "Law of Attraction" new age thought ideas that seem to exist in this particular order of Knights. I do think you are focusing on the wrong set of ideas though. This seems more to do with Resonances, the nature of both Illumination and Transformation, and how they as powers interact than Shallan's human psyche. What are your thoughts about the above WoB?

Im curious what you mean by connection here because we know that at least some of these definitely require Connection while a case can certainly be made for all the others. For example we know that Nahel Bonds are, if not a type of Connection itself, at least completely dependent on the Connection between the spren (which are pieces of a Shard's power) and the Radiant. Notice how the Stormfather completely conflates Connection with the Nahel Bond here. The other main ones I see you miss is Allomancy and Feruchemy. You're right that they require a bloodline but this is because the Connection needed to use the magic is hereditary on Scadrial. The below WoB, as well as contextual clues in the books, makes it it quite clear that Connection is definitely at play here. As for Awakening, I am of the opinion that Connection is needed here too. Breaths are literally pieces of Endowment's soul/power. By having one meld with your soul wouldn't you be Connecting yourself to Endowment? Consider that in the context of the below WoB and it makes it pretty clear that by holding even one breath you are being Connected to Endowment.

Good points. I'll agree to disagree with the caveat that the grey skin from the tendrils seems more like the grey skin from Shardblades than the greyish skin of a drab in both severity and blotchiness, so I'm not totally convinced I'm wrong in making that connection. Not to mention the black smoke still present in the effects of both Shardblades and Nightblood.

The reason I disagree with that second statement is rooted firmly in a mistake I see in the first. Nightblood certainly doesn't consume its wielders in the same manner as a Divine Breath consumes its Returned. As seen at the end of Oathbringer, the tendrils Nightblood emits while drawn seem to consume the physical form of Szeth in addition to the stromlight he possessed. The interesting bit about this effect is the grey skin that the consumption left behind, a phenomenon we've only ever seen from Shardblades. If the main aspects of Nightblood's consumption effects that differ from what we've seen on Nalthis can be reasonably traced back to the effects of Shardblades and how they destroy things it makes sense that his consumption of outside investiture and his destructive nature is rooted in the realmatic nature of Shardblades. This is without mentioning the black smoke shown in both the destructive power of Nightblood and that of Shardblades. I've thought about it and I just don't see the same evidence of Ruin's nature being present in Nightblood's consumption effects. The only real connection I see is the point you brought up, that Nightblood is destructive, but that is far from evidence that Ruin is involved in Nightblood's effects. Consider someone as ignorant of the nature of Shardblades as we are of Nightblood, they could just as easily think "There is good evidence that Shardblades hold Ruin's investiture as well as Honor and Cultivation's; they are the most destructive weapons on Roshar, can penetrate souls with metal in a way similar to Hemalurgy, and even leave behind a smoke that is the color associated with Ruin!" Just because we're seeing destructive potential from Nightblood that exceeds our preconceived notion of what would come from Endowment's powers doesn't necessarily mean its Ruin's effect in the same way that Shardblades aren't of Ruin despite their destructive potential that exceeds what we'd expect of Honor and Cultivation. The two phenomenon of Nightblood's consumption effect and a Shardblade's destructive power just seem too tied together for it to be a coincidence. Thoughts?

We recently got a WoB that touches on this subject so I thought I'd post. @Extesian recently got the below WoB on reddit: This definitely leads me to believe that the magic system on Nalthis is what is responsible for the destructive force of Nightblood (not some kind of effect from Ruin's investiture at his inception) while the manner of acquisition is merely an effect him being a Shardblade. We have seen Shardblades penetrate people's spiritual aspects so it makes sense that one made using a magic system that we now know powers itself through any available source would take advantage and consume this pool of investiture it is clearly able to manipulate. This explanation obviously makes some leaps in logic, but much less so than one that involves Ruin's investiture being present at his creation. As for what Brandon meant in that WoB, I'm of the opinion that Nightblood possessing Ruin's investiture is simply from him consuming Scadrian investitute post-creation. What are your guy's thoughts on this topic now that we've gotten this WoB?

This is my answer to that question.

Interesting interpretation, good theory. I'm still convinced that this conversation was alluding to a theory of mine: that the scream's Dalinar hears are connected to Szeth and the Herald's madness. Read the below WoB and let me know what you think:

Wrote this and thought a few people here could relate to a couple aspects of this poem, let me know what you guys think! CALLIGRAPHY My father’s letters blot a supple canvas. Calligraphy soaked the pulp with beauty innate, intricately symbolic patterns intertwined. In the designs I see myself. Not scribbles in a thrown away note, but a note of discord’s complex clef, a cutting pitch within a careful lattice of music. Father’s cordial warmth is seen, not heard. Illustrated in the way his loving arms caress my mother. His brown limbs, a taboo, are tattooed with symbols of culture. He exists as one in discord as his dark skin contrasts my mother’s pale frame. Those he touches are his canvas of affection. I was born as one, my skin colored fawn. My father inscribed it, conferring love, culture, and a burning crimson passion for words. The pen’s strokes bleed through paper and into the next medium. My blood, his.

How many people are there with Royal Locks throughout history? Its not like they're born every day, Endowment's will being directly involved would be feasible even if she wasnt nearly omnipotent and omnipresent. I agree. I just dont think Nalthian shardblades are all Type IV, sorry I didnt make that clear. The type IV distinction requires sapience while these shardblades seemingly dont have them. Me neither apparently, went looking but I think I misremembered him being able to change size while drawn. I would disagree (partially). Read the WoB below: I think those black tendrils when he's consuming, leaving behind grey marks, is related, although the grey skin is a consequence of seemingly every shardblade. Any type of Ruinous investiture has not shown this effect. Regardless... I probably agree with you here, which is why I said "I've come up with my own explanation for at least some of his oddities." There just isnt much info here to do some proper speculation so I held off in this post at least, as I felt what I had was well supported. Thanks for the feedback! Edit: @Jace21 @TheFoxQR Just wanted to add that Cognitive Shadows and spren have been described as pretty much the same thing, and while Nightblood has been described as a "robot spren" I think he still fits in that family of entities.

Introduction Many moons have passed since Sanderson turned his back on these forums and left us hollow, in darkness. A drought of Nalthis material like a shadow across this community. Gone are dreams of a colorful world, dreams of light. Left to the grey of Mistborn books after Stromlight books, many have given up hope of even an essay. I had all but forgotten the vibrant view of Vivenna's likeness on that most sacred of covers or the sharp bite of Lightsong's colorful wit. That is until I had (and shared) the ideas that became this theory and just had to do a reread! I've shared these ideas before, but after the Skyward tour I thought it deserved a bit more fleshing out. Thematic, frivolous intro aside, I hope you guys enjoy the theory! Sapient Objects and the Royal Locks Since the first days of Warbreaker's release there has been rampant speculation about Nightblood and the mystery surrounding his creation. From Hemalurgy to Shardic interference, I've seen many theorized causes for Nightbloods nature but none I'd readily subscribe to. After thinking about it long enough I've come up with my own explanation for at least some of his oddities; I believe that the act of creating a sapient awakening allowed for Nightblood to inherit a Divine Breath via the same realmatic mechanics surrounding the Royal Locks. While this seemed a little far fetched when I first proposed the idea, I believe recent WoB as well as themes within the book point to this theory being well within the realm of possibility. There are more than a few things in Warbreaker that lead me to this conclusion, but lets start off with what solidified this theory in my mind. Read the below WoBs: How could the endowment of a Divine Breath from Shashara to Nightblood work in my mind? Let's start off with what we know about the Royal Locks. Vo is the very first example we have of someone who successfully created offspring as a Returned. The mysterious method that he used to accomplish this lead to the descendants of Vo having a piece of a divine breath within them, allowing for passive powers similar to (but weaker than) a Returned's. The second example we see in the books of something similar is the method the ruling priests of Hallendren used to create new God Kings, which may or may not be the same method used by Vo. Not only is this example important because of who must have been the one to teach the priests this method (Vasher), it also reveals that a Divine Breath can be passed down in a manner similar to the Royal Locks. The Creation of Type IV Entities Now that I've laid down the background information let's go over what we actually know about Type IV Biochromatic entities. First off, it is relevant to remember that it seems as if Nalthian Shardblades can be created without the object gaining sapience and becoming a Type IV. Secondly, here is Vasher's description of the process used to create Nightblood as well as some important context: Reading that first in-book quote makes red lights go off in my head; we know that intention is very important to awakening, so how could Vasher and Vivenna have created Nightblood while not understanding how their own process worked? Based on Vasher's description, Nightblood should have been something like the awakened sword we see Vivenna using throughout Oathbringer. In fact, I believe that is exactly should have happened (if indeed the method used to create this sword is the same) and that there was another entity guiding this process. One with significant control over Divine Breath and who gets endowed with them. Read the below WoB: For me to explain this, lets go back to the topic of Godkings and their Divine Breaths. As it's described by Brandon in the annotations, the process used to achieve this does not always work; Godkings must sometimes be found in the form of an infant Returned. This, combined with the below Arcanum passage, leads me to believe that Endowment has the power to control when a Divine Breath is passed down after someone uses this process. This would neatly explain why Nightblood's creation was a mystery to the two scholars that created him and why, unlike almost every other magical process in the Cosmere if you know what you're doing, creating an offspring with a Divine Breath is unreliable. Nightblood's Powers - Aside As an aside, the other main thing that convinces me of this theory is Nightblood's effects themselves. He seems to very obviously possess properties of a Returned, from Vasher's direct mention that Nightblood's consumption of breath is like that of a returned, to him having mind controling abilities like what we see from Vasher with animals and children, to being able to manipulate his physical form, it just seems like this would fit the narrative in a smooth way. Conclusion I've come to like this theory more and more, the idea that Shashara could have passed on a key to Initiation to Nightblood simply by designing and creating him is something so wholly Nalthis. Im curious to see what you all have to say. Are there any holes in this theory? Points of disagreement? Let me know down below and thanks for the read!

I've been theorizing in my head a bit about these Echoes we see in the sample chapter. My idea is that they are akin to the voices Szeth and Dalinar hear. My reasoning is predicated in part on a couple complicated theories of mine involving Unmade influence, but long story short cause I'm in a rush, the unmade seem to be involved in magical hallucinations (like people seeing things when deeply under the Thrill) and madness and I think this might be a related phenomenon, not caused by Unmade but maybe coming from the same magical ballpark. Reference WoB below:

I got a WoB at the Chicago signing for Skyward that is very relevant to this theory so I thought I'd bump it. I definitely think this gives my ideas more weight. While it doesnt touch on my conjectures about the Heralds, I believe this shores up the foundation of evidence that those were built on. I'll admit that there is an argument to be made that my wording was too loose and that one could still believe the counter arguments proposed in this thread, but I think this is as close to an outright answer on the topic as I could have gotten without baiting a RAFO. What do you guys think? Does this WoB sway you to think I'm right when coupled with the evidence I presented in the OP, or do you guys hold other beliefs on these voices? Feel free to voice your opinion, poke holes, or add ideas since the last round of discussion on this thread!

Planning on flying in friday morning, should have plenty of time to spare to make the signing. See y'all there!

@Pagerunner we just got a new WoB that hints at Unmade having existed on other planets in the Rosharan system:

I love this thread, might as well contribute after lurking all this time. Torturous leaves sprout, seeds of doubt springs doubt of seeds, sprout leaves torture.

Vivenna seems to possess that knowledge herself; there is a big chance it was made by Yesteel but there is also a big chance it wasn't. This could also be explained within the theory as the new blade only possessing a portion of a divine breath while Nightblood inherited a full one, although we dont know much about the mechanics of what decides this. Edit: I do believe Nightblood involved more than this though, as Brandon has hinted that a mixing of other Shard's investiture took place with Nightblood although that is still not more than a theory extrapolated from a purposely vague and up in the air WoB.

I'm doing a reread of Warbreaker right now so I've been shooting a lot of quick ideas for theories off on the Discord and this was the one that i think was the best so i thought I'd do a small write up on it here. As we all know, the Royal Locks are a phenomenon when a Returned has a child and that child is endowed with a piece of a Divine Breath through a process we don't fully know the parameters of. We also know that this process likely could result in a full Divine Breath being endowed from the fact that many Godkings were created through natural birth yet no distinction between them and the ones who were made Godkings after Returning during infancy is ever brought up. With this in mind, read the below WoB: Notice how Brandon specifically ties the manifestation of consciousness to this idea that the creators of a machine would be realmatically similar to its parent. What if this holds true for type 4 Biochromatic Entities, and a factor in why Nightblood is so different (especially from the one we see Vivenna use in OB) is because he was made by a Returned? It would explain this quote and the phenomenon Vivenna refrencest: What do you guys think, is this plausible?

In the released Dragonsteel there is a scene where it is revealed that the Sho Del use silver sheathes. This stuck out to me as an odd material for a sheathe so I asked about it in the reddit AMA and here is the response: Seeing as how Ambitions Vessel was a Sho Del, my latest crackpot is that perhaps silver being an important metal on Threnody is a result of Uli Da's culture being expressed in the magic. Really glad (and a bit surprised i was right there) to have gotten this confirmation, what do you guys think?