Savanorn

Well, maybe. But I disagree, I think Wyndle exists irrespective of her belief in him, and just as a flamespren or any other spren...and as such she's definitely doing something weird, crossing realms and interacting with something that should have negligible mass and ability to support her. To me, this is like claiming that Shallan can make people hear Pattern's voice by simply believing he's speaking.

Blood for the blo.... Wait. Wrong oath.

Glad to see pointlessly being exclusionary never goes out of style. I don't like Shallan, I don't dislike Shallan. She's a middle-tier for me. I get her tragic past, I get the mix of insecurity, immaturity and talent and compassion she has. I think some of it was compelling, some of it was...I don't know, not boring...I just didn't care. Sometimes she's funny, sometimes I think she tells a dad joke that flatlines. As a character, she definitely has her weak points, and she has her strong ones. The big thing is that she's a main character, and especially in WoR she's not just a main character she is the main one. I didn't mind with Kaladin, because...at least for me... the crushing despair of his situation and that he manages to dig hope out of (with help) is an engaging and inspiring arc. On top of that, I feel like Kaladin was dropped into a hopeless situation while Shallan has stuff happen, and a lot of it has higher stakes, but it seems more contrived, more artificial to me.

I haven't the time to reply to the replies, which I assume are good as usual, but I'll reply to the OP. It wasn't wrong to kill Sadeas, not at all. Arguably the methodology was wrong, but Sadeas is about as bad as they come in the books...not to mention he is actually getting worse in his disregard for life and his love of pointless fighting. Even putting all else aside, the essential character of Sadeas is one that warrants death. We know Sadeas' goal, Conquest, the best he can offer as justifications are that battle is the only time he feels alive, and that it is the role of an Alethi to die, to go to the afterlife and continue to fight. Both of these justifications fall short as even approaching reasonable. End of the day, we can see that Sadeas isn't going to let up, he's going to continue to undermine the Crown and waste time and resources the world needs.

Interesting, but it is the same...or at least described similarly...to the spike-like blade. Could it be that he had managed to unbond it? (or it wasn't really Taln, wielding but not bonding Taln's blade) As a side note, I believe honorblades are referred to as being more powerful than sprenblades, anyone have thoughts on this?

Hold on, I'll get my boots *grumble* Have you considered being something.... warmer?

Well, taken at the new information, it would seem it isn't a permanent alteration to the nature of the eye...but a byproduct of accessing the surges exclusive to each order, thus why each order has somewhat different colours. Considering the interesting role of eyes in Roshar, there's probably a good reason for this...at a theoryguess I'd say they are the manifestation of the soul in the most obvious form, thus why they shivel when someone is killed with a shardblade.

Good evening! I'd assume there was more at stake when Dalinar dueled, but it is referenced at least a few times. Hmmmm. What I mean is, Adolin is pretty much the best with a sword we know of. Dueling is also his specific calling, he's not terribly pious...but he does seem to train often in addition to the significant amount of battle experience he has. Considering all these things, and also that he has access to what we'd imagine to be top-of-the-line tutors. He has every reason to be the best, socio-economics, experience, etc. I assumed he was joking? Like, if it was 96.5% he's probably not going to say that. Admittedly a fair point. I actually laughed out loud at that, for several minutes. My roomates are confused. Thanks (not being snide) Szeth is also a pretty capable fighter all-around, my impression that he is good with blade, bare hands and Surgebinding, and back then he wasn't really insane. Biased perhaps...but I don't think his bias effects this sort of thing. All-in-all I'd think him a pretty solid first hand source. A better line of argument might be to point out that against Szeth Shardplate isn't super useful, or rather it's not something that someone can rely on in the same way given the high likelihood of damage thanks to Szeth's skillset...whereas a superior swordsman doesn't have to worry about their sword shattering. That is, for an experienced fighter, I could readily imagine knowing what sort of punishment your plate can take and learning to rely on that, even get used to it, wouldn't really be a bad thing. We see this a whole bunch, both in battles with Shardbearers blocking blades with sections of armour, and even simply jumping off very tall objects. Against Szeth though, mobility is really the key. And when the shardplate starts to leak and lock, it becomes a pretty severe hindrance. Well...maybe in visions...almost certainly in visions really...but I don't know if he's fought anyone using it? That's fair really, I suppose I expected more because of his intimate connection to Kaladin. Fair point, I did come to this realisation in the day between, but regardless. I guess we'll shelve it. I'm not entirely convinced, in general the lighteyes just don't seem fearsome enough for lifelong warriors trained since a young age, but I also realise there's not enough evidence. Yet. For me to adequately formulate a counter. Well, I think Szeth has definitely become more deadly. As he was end of WoR, he could probably have killed them both. STORM IT ALEK, I DELETED YOUR QUOTE AND IT WON'T COME BACK.

Jezrien's beard! I just realised something. Alethi shardbeaers are still famously good, assuming Szeth had fought/seen other Bearers, they may (or may not) have been Alethi. He knows them well enough he might have thought to mention it though....they are better. It's entirely possible that a lighteye might be better trained, but an Alethi is certainly going to be. That is, most nationalities < Alethi < Kholins. I'm not sure how strongly this carries over though. I'd imagine there's good, but there's also Dalinar show-them-what-shards-can-really-do good. But...I don't think anyone is really Blackthorn level. I'll reply soon!

I don't know, Dalinar's calling is leadership and yet he was a famed duelist in his time. Callings are not regularly changed. I'm not even sure if I'm really arguing or if I'm just mentioning things...but you'd figure you'd have a decent selection of older duelists, like Aladar, if it was really that common I might be forgetting something (or someones) though. Basically, a calling is what one should be, but I'm not sure it's always what one is. They were the practice weapons I was referencing, and they are as close to a real shardblade as a stick figure is to a man, but do you have a source for the 10% figure? My apologies, I wasn't doubting that would you said is said in the books, but whether that is, in fact, true. Say a lighteye is trained from ten, what is the nature of this training? We've seen Renarin train, but he has a number of things available that the vast majority of lighteyes are not readily going to have, a set of Plate among them. Ah, my mistake. End of the day, I can't imagine the lighteye training system is, in general, particularly efficient or as good as we've seen the Kholins do, given that the Kholin heavy infantry (which I take to be lighteyes) have a reputation for their skill....and given Szeth's comment of how a Shardbearer generally fights. Now, it's possible that a darkeye shardbearer might well be even worse that Szeth indicates, but I'm not sure it is a particularly important difference, past a point, having magical power armour and a six-foot long sword of doom makes you pretty dangerous regardless, and if you chose to sit on those laurels or grow complacent that's probably worse than merely being less experienced. Thank you.

I actually had similar views on Amaram, I imagined him as being something more of a player...but now I think it'll probably be Restares and Amaram is just his catspaw. The thing I don't get, is that Kaladin just up and took on a Shardbearer basically alone and with a spear and knife, and Amaram thinks he can force him to do anything. I mean, historically, apparently he can. But I don't think it really makes a lot of sense given the immense killing power of a Shardbearer. I'm not really arguing, or maybe I am...basically a few points. Adolin's specific calling is Duelling, just as Renarin is an outlier given his lack of combat orientation, so too is Adolin (but not as serious a one) given his specific focus. There isn't enough Shards for everyone to be well trained in its use, even using family plate or King's plate. We know there's a couple of dozen shards in Alethkar, whereas there must be (at the very least) a couple of thousand Lighteyed soldiers...and we do know that using a Shardblate is substantially different from using a regular sword. There are practice weapons but...again...they're not really the same. Basically, even in Alethkar, every lighteyed son is not a weapon- or swordmaster. Which makes sense, otherwise lighteyed infantry should run through parshendi light a proverbial hot knife as the latter are notably inexperienced and couldn't possibly be as skilled. There's also the lighteyed battalionlord Kaladin kills, who admittedly underestimates Kaladin. I think never is an overstatement, and it does depend a little on the historical context as well, if Alethi really train from such a young age, and how in depth such training really is. To expand, I'm thinking of two points. The first is that a children's lesson are rarely the equal of an adults (if you've ever done martial arts, this is readily apparent. The second is motivation, a man in the army fighting for life is, generally, going to be more motivated to master his weapon than a ten year old lighteye. He knows what it means if he can't swing right. This makes sense given what Szeth has said of shardbearers. I don't think it matters much, especially in Amaram's situation. He just won a pair of Shards, and any Shardbearer is going to be vastly better than none. Not a valid criticism. Firstly, Szeth recognises Gavilar is a skilled enemy. Second he notes the difference, that most men depend on the strength of Shard whereas Gavilar does not...which is not the sort of thing you'd expect if what you said was true. If he was like "this guy is a blowhard pushover" and we later find out that Gavilar is one of the best there was, then you'd have a case. As it was, Gavilar is one of the best there was, and Szeth notices it. Likewise if he had a fight with Adolin from his PoV, he'd probably note his skill but also that Szeth was not going to indulge him in a fair fight. I was going to mention this. Well done! On a sidenote with Dalinar, Maxal, he's had something like thirty or forty years of training, hunts, war and duels (I forget the Rosharian year compared to our own...) at his best, he pretty much was the best, I think he hardly needs to train.

Well, actually it is a pretty straightforward lie. Why would he lie? Why wouldn't he? It doesn't really matter, because he obviously has. Amaram wields Helaran's shardblade, as previous evidence has concluded. It's also a relatively simple and straightforward conclusion without much risk of inaccuracy. As for why he might want to wait...well...For instance, even if anyone were to believe Kaladin's story, it doesn't match up with Amaram's. Amaram no doubt has hundreds of people willing to vouch for the truth of his, Kaladin has no one. As Amaram and co. planned. On top of that, Amaram is already a high lord, being a shardbearer might be prestigious...but Amaram isn't really all about the prestige (he's not really a typical Alethi) nor does he even really need it. On top of THAT, well, maybe it's not even about Kaladin but about who sent Helaran. Amaram believes this to be the ghostbloods, and immediately revealing he killed their assassin would let them know they failed. It could provoke a second attempt, especially before he was ready. Even during the time between when he had the Blade and when he revealed it, he has a significant advantage over would-be assassins. We saw how well Shallan, hardly a hardened combatant, could use her blade to kill someone, and the numerous ruminations on how easy it is to kill people with secret shardblades, even how easily Dalinar got the jump on Amaram because he knew Amaram had a blade, but Amaram didn't know he did. Secret shardbearers are not exactly unheard of (King of Jah Keved) and, further, Amaram wouldn't really need Shards back in Alethkar. It's a small-time back-and-forth war and, apart from Helaran, no one was really even bothering to use Shards there. Besides, it's not like Amaram couldn't bond his blade and keep his blade secret, just in case he does need them, then announce it later. So he's not losing the Shards by not revealing them. There's also other more conjecture-based stuff, like maybe Amaram had some other reason he was staying in Alethkar and he subsequently revealed his Shards when he wanted to begin to make plans for the Shattered Plains, because being a Shardbearer he now had the perfect reason to be going there.

The best response, although I'm not sure how textually correct it would be, is that the Greatshells likely have a small, specific set of plateus they pupate on, and all are within the range of Alethi camps. Maybe the Alethi just got tremendously lucky.

Hold on. I'm thinking. I could imagine the propensity for binding might be passed on, and there's evidence for this (see most of the living Kholins) but maybe that doesn't include eye colour. That is, maybe pre-bonding eye colour follows standard genetics. Like. Say. If a Dustbringer and a Windrunner both have blue eyes before they bond, after they have blue and red, they have kids, but they'll all be blue-eyed. Also, as far as bonding Shardblades. Moash's eyes just lightened didn't they? They went from dark brown to light brown. Buuuuut. Do we know if the children of shareholders are also lighteyed? A dark eyes getting a shard is rare enough to be nearly a myth. I am spitballing, feel free to poke holes .

Aha, I get it. So Endowment just lets normal people give up their innate investiture, in the form of breath, easily due to her Intent.

Now I could be missing something Moogle, but isn't that what Vasher is doing? Like, breaths are related to Endowment's Investiture and Vasher uses storm light instead?

Brandon Sanderson has answered this, iirc, and you're basically right. Healing has to do with how you see yourself. And Kaladin sees himself as branded whereas Lopen doesn't see himself as maimed.

Kaellok, Aha, I see what you're saying. So ME is related to Odium but not part of him...Truth to tell, I don't have the books at the ready right now either, so we'll leave that hanging. That's actually an interesting parallel, what with Vasher and Nightblood hanging around. So...Midnight Essence, so far in my mind, it is some sort of evil awakening intent., Well, that was the impression I'd had...I'll have to review it. Darkness, I see why people do rereads. Seloun, 1. I see. Well I have no problem with that. I that's how I think we're supposed to interpret Gavilar, but I think there's more. I freely admit that's mainly baseless, or rather, circumstantial as it relies on things like Amaram and Taravangian being not particularly savory, and my own interpretations as to what Eshonai says about him. AS well as Navani's comment. So, basically, what's already been noted. More specifically, I think Gavilar was likely the focus of a sort of struggle for his soul....but I digress. I would not be surprised if he wasn't only receiving the visions from Tanavast. This has a flow on, Seloun, if you'll indulge me. What do you think about the effects of Honour's visions, in comparison to the influence of Odium? We've seen Dalinar noticeably shift from one sort of person to another, in many ways he became a totally different person, in a way that I'd say was similar to Lin Davar. Both, I think, are obviously under the influence of a Shard. That's about right, right? 2. So, under your explanation, the Herald's return from Braize when they break under torture, and that lets Odiumspren bond...and a Desolation is ended when one or more Herald either dies or returns? That is, once that happens the Odiumspren stop being reinforced and can be cleaned up? ...thus why the Heralds at the start of tWoK thought that their deserting the Oathpact might bind Odium permanently? Three questions then, Firstly. Isn't it Word of Brandon that the Oathpact is between the Heralds and the Almighty? No other parties? How would this tie in with the Stormfather being obliged to let Odiumspren bond...especially since I think his exact nature as the Stormfather we know is a post-Tanavast event, isn't it? Unless he is assuming Tanavast's role in an already-existing pact between him and Odium? Secondly, what rationale would Odium have under your theory for not using the Everstorm earlier? Thirdly, why would Nale think surgebinding could bring about a Desolation then? Finally, not to sound overly critical! I really like your idea, it is elegant.

Wow, guys. I step out for a few days and I get some responses, good to see, good to see! I don't have a whole bunch of time, so do forgive the brevity of these responses. Seloun, Hi, and thanks for the input. I disagree with you on a few points, but we can compare them later. I have two questions as a kick-off. 1. What is your take on Gavilar? 2. What is your take on the Everstorm. Night of Sorrows, True Desolation? Kaellok, 1. Good catch, I'd certainly taken it as the first measure. 2. Jezrien's Beard! You're right. In fact, that changes the meaning of it almost entirely. Oh well, scratch the Shinovar angle then. 3. Hmmm, so I'm curious, do you think Midnight Essence is the Essence of Odium, or something else? Moogle, Thanks for contributing! Hoser, Could the case be that some of the Unmade (or voidspren even) are Parshendi gods, but not all of them as a whole? Like if a culture worshiped five of the Heralds, and the other five came back, some of the Heralds would have returned, but not the gods?

Hello! And thanks. Hi, and thank you. I was a fair bit of work to put my thoughts down and make them flow. You know, I think that may have slipped my mind, thank you. It further then, seems unlikely that Brandon would have included the Black Sphere if it merely contained a 'regular' voidspren. That actually makes a lot of sense, only, how could an Unmade be bonded? Unless...that's what Taravangian was talking about not 'yet' having the power to take one of them on? He needs to find the right kind of sphere to bond them? Well, I'm assuming Gavilar's plan is much like Venli/Eshonai's plan. Invest/bind something as a gateway for Odium to pour corruption into the world, this begets a Desolation, as a Desolation is nigh the Heralds return. From what I gather, a Desolation is like a building storm. Under regular circumstances, at least, the Heralds return and have at least a little bit of time (time enough to have the natives of Roshar learn to lead, mine bronze, be in general trained) to prepare. This works under my theory, as it would take some time for Odium to corrupt enough to be a threat to the world at large. It's also why the rapid rate of the Everstorm is so frightening. Especially for a world without a Knight Radiant (let alone plural) Thanks again.

Odium, Desolations, Recreance and Gavilar. Why is being a surgebinder so dangerous? Why are they the force that ‘could’ return Desolations to this world? (To quote Nale) I've wondered this, I've turned it over, and one answer keeps coming back. I call, and it comes, again. I’ll elaborate on this in the body ahead, but I sincerely hope you’ll forgive my love of long speech, I hazard a guess that others have guessed as well. The Nature of Surgebinding, Stormlight is raw surges, raw energy, it is colourless but through its use the Radiants were able colour it, and make use of surges selective to their bonded spren, like shooting light through a filter, and taking only a selection of the spectrum. It’s an analogy I like, although I’m not sure if it’s of my own device. A Windrunner Invests Stormlight, and he can bond or lash. Furthermore, if trapped in a gem, a fabrial may harness this stormlight to an effect determined by the gem. In this case, the gem is the filter. So, you can change the vessel, that is, the filter (different surgebinder, different gem) but what if that isn’t the only thing you could change? What if a Surgebinder could Invest an entirely different kind of Light? Voidlight, Voidbinding, and Gavilar’s Design We’ve seen a different Light, perhaps even, a different form of Investiture. There are hints that this exists, termed Voidbinding, but I’m doubtful this is of the exact same vein. What I speak of is Odium’s sphere. The black sphere Gavilar held. Strongly implied to be of Odium. Gavilar believed he could return the Parsheni gods, which we now know to be Voidspren, and this black sphere seems by far the most likely means to that end. Only… there’s a problem with this; a Parsheni cannot Invest. They can bond a spren, sure, and surely it is possible that Gavilar’s sphere contained a voidspren for the Parsheni to bond, but this explanation seems…mundane, and at the very least it does not match the description of the Stormspren we see in Word’s of Radiance. I have another theory, but I’ll backtrack a moment. Why was Gavilar so interested in the Knights Radiant? I've asked myself this of a time, and the answer that returns is simple, “Gavilar wanted a Radiant, because Radiants can surgebind” We've seen Amaram, who was a confidant of Gavilar, greatly desires the return of the Heralds, and I believe Gavilar is referenced as a pious man, and my bet is that Gavilar sought to begin a Desolation so that the Heralds would return. Now, he may have been manipulated by Odium, as Shallan’s father was. Certainly Navani saying that he had a darker side is some points in that direction, although hardly conclusive. He could have just been a pious man who sought the return of the Heralds through some misguided Faith. But, I digress. As I said, long speech. Now, I think that Gavilar’s design required a Radiant. A Radiant to Invest with the essence of Odium, this then, is what begets a desolation. Further Speculation on Desolations So then, we’re on the same plateau. I’m sure those of you who read this, insightful gems you are, have already guessed the implications of this. A Desolation is caused when a surgebinder Invests Odium. A Desolation is caused when a Herald breaks under torture. But breaks to do what? Well…you’ve probably deduced my meaning. We’ve seen glimpses of what Damnation is like, hooks through flesh, fire melting skim, fat and bone. Searing agony, doubly so for a surgebinder, knowing it could all stop if only they drew a little Odium into them. We’ve seen how stormlight heals and fortifies the body, I can imagine for the Heralds, surgebinders, being trapped in Damnation without access to Stormlight, but with Odium’s essence all around them. I can’t think of a better way to break them. This also explains why the Heralds bring a Desolation, they can tap Voidlight and return to Roshar, but in doing so they bring Voidspren which can then infect and/or corrupt. Only, this time, the Heralds stayed. They stayed because they were too broken to go back, and because they knew if they stayed, the Pact would hold, as long as Taln remained. Taln, who is famous for impossible last stands, Taln who, I feel, would be the last to break. I his disregard for his own life implies a lack of fear of Damnation and suggests that he wasn’t broken. Not yet, and…perhaps…not now. If Taln in Words of Radiance is not Taln truly. Shin Stone Shamanism and Recreance This, then, would explain the reason why the Shin view the Stormlight as profane. A lot of Stone Shamanism, or at least in Szeth’s experience and being Truthless, seems to relate to the return of Desolations. Surely, then, anyone who could Invest Stormlight is putting the world in peril of a Desolation. It would make sense then, that this fear of surgebinders take root, assuming the superstition to be based in some fact. If, perchance, the Radiants knew this to be true, or found it out, it would explain Recreance as well. It takes one surgebinder to bring another Desolation, to sweep the slate clean. It might well make sense. As long as the Radiants remain, the possibility of massive failure awaits, a second Desolation. Without a surgebinder, the possibility is almost nothing. Moreover, the death of the spren makes them exceedingly unlikely to trust humans again, lowering the likelihood of future bonds even more so, and it also makes sense why the last Radiant Dalinar speaks to is so morose about the inevitability of the Last Desolation. Moreover, we know there is some war when the Radiants desert their oaths. Perhaps they feared the ramifications of a losing side will to go to extreme, Odium-investing, measures. As I said, it only takes one. As a final aside, I think it is Odium's cunning that is the reason we haven't seen an Everstorm before. He had to break or corrupt the Heralds, he had to let the rot set in with people (or selectively reveal information to catalyse this) and at the end he unleashes his most devastating device. Exactly when people have no Herald, no Knights Radiant, barely a sense of unity and Parshmen in every city. That said, I'm not sure if the Everstorm is the Final Desolation, or merely an aspect of it. I could certainly imagine that this could well be Opium trying to sweep the field and pull out all the stops. The Acknowledgements of Alternates: (A Few) It then should come as no surprise that there are alternate hypothesis that some may dare to say are more credible. Certainly, Nale could merely mean what we saw in Words of Radiance. The Parsheni were, in part, pushed to become Stormform based on the appearance of Kaladin at the Battle of the Tower. The return of Surgebinders begat the return of Voidbringers. It is also possible that the Black Sphere is not the cause of a Desolation, but rather the essence of Odium that allows him to choose a champion, or something else to this extent. Midnight essence, even. I should note that the nature of damnation is also highly speculative, as is the possibility of a surgebinder Investing voidlight. Or even voidlight behaving as stormlight does. Perhaps they have radically different types of Investiture, or mayhap voidlight cannot be Invested. I do not know if Recreance ties in well with my theory or not, this is just where it has taken me, yet it feels meaningful, it feels right. I also think that it could be due to Bondsmiths getting some special insight into the death of Honour, or Odium in general just influencing some important people at the right time. Odium clearly does not need to be physically present to influence people, I surmise an Investment by Odium would be a lot like a Parsheni bonding a Stormspren, but it might not even be necessary. Thank you.