Savanorn

That sounds good, but the way Honour says it implies to me otherwise. Odium has come and killed him, and these are his dying words. I say this because he says he "cannot fight him any longer" and that he is "gone" and that he "should have realised he {Odium} would come for me" and finally that he is dead because Odium killed him, as per In The Top Room (WoK). If Honour had made the conscious decision to sacrifice himself I'd think he'd mention it more directly. I do think Honour bound him, but I don't think it was an intentional sacrifice it was just the only thing he could do, or maybe the best of a bad few.

Hey all, so I'm thinking the Oathpact might be more simple than we've, or at least I've, given it credit for. The way I see it, Honour and Odium have a chat. Maybe after Odium hits Braize and forces H/C to Roshar. Honour proposes a contest. He will pick ten of his best to face any trial Odium can throw at them, if they fail Odium gets a shot at Honour, or Roshar. Odium, being tricksy, rightly points out that Honour could just never said champions to face Odium's challenges. No challenge is no failure, and thus Odium never gets a chance. Honour is like "fine, if they don't return after a while you get another shot" Odium decides fair is fair and thinks torture is the best way to challenge Honour's champions, perhaps not necessarily in keeping with Honour's understanding of the oathpact or intent but the deal has been made. The reason why the Desolations were getting fiercer over time is because with each desolation Odium gets a better idea of how to attack and make use of his resources. Just as the Spren and Heralds seem to get a better idea of the proper game plan. However, with Aharietiam the Heralds throw a wrench into this plan as Taln is too stubborn to break. Odium eventually gets frustrated and just decides to throw the deal to the wind and go at Honour. Because he's no longer acting within the bounds of the deal honour can bind him, in this case to Greater Roshar/Braize. Of course, Honour is dead, so that sucks. The way I see it, the Oathpact is the specific name for the deal Honour made with the Heralds. Thus why it doesn't include Odium as a binding participant, as per WoB...probably. In this model the Oathpact is like a contract of employment between one company Honour and ten people. I've some thoughts on Parsheni and Odium Influence that I may share later. So, that's it. If anything here is mindnumbingly simple just feel free to cruise on by.

Not dealt with because it was expressly dealt with in the OP. All options come with a self-infusing supply of gemstones.

<p>What are the relative pricing for say, units of archers/divisions of lighteyes swordsmen?</p> <p> </p> <p>Also are we supposed to defeat the Others, or win the Iron Throne, what are the victory conditions?</p> <p> </p> <p> </p>

Well, you'd need to have a Shardgun to fire them and I think WoB is that complex mechanical parts (or perhaps even multiple different pieces) are not possible. That said, I think Spren can manifest in a human size but without bonding to a person and subjecting themself to their will, they can't take a form that can effect the physical world strongly (my understanding is that it is Kaladin who allows Syl to become a sword/spear/hammer)

I summon Preservation, IN DEFENCE MODE.

I prefer lunatic.

I always thought Willshapers...shaped their own will?

Maybe this depends on the cognitive aspect? For instance, the ocean is just one big thing even though it has many different little harbours/inlets/bits. Likewise a group of leaves being blown in the wind may be linked by the fact they are a limited range of small objects being blown by a single imaginary gust, or something to this effect? A bow-and-arrow is very clearly two different but heavily related objects, as would be two swords, or a sword-and-shield, as would be a field of caltrops. You might be able to get away with Shardnunchaku, though.

I am aware of that, but thank you for the link. Intent for intent. I'm mainly throwing thoughts here. To expand and clarify. I meant it in the sense of whether Odium is merely 'active' on Roshar or something more. I believe he is partially invested, so my thoughts would be that he has a current and relatively limited presence on, at present, just Roshar and Braize. That said, assuming no contradiction in WoB and that Odium has been 'active' on all the worlds, what exact level of activity might that be? For instance, when we see Sadeas and Lin is that Odium merely being 'active' or is it something more? Something he can only do in Roshar.Or could he extend his reach? The Letter lends me to believe he could not. Further I'd expect there must be some limit on that particular influence. Like, we know he's been on Sel because that is quite evident. I'd say that was some level of past activity accounted for. But, say, Nalthis or Scadrial? They still have the shards so he obviously wasn't so overt, and indeed if he's not been there personally. . . shardically? Then it must be influence or intermediary but what might that be? Yeah.

I'd actually be curious how far Odium can send his influence. Assuming of course that he is 'active' on Roshar while being on Braize. Maybe he is limited in influence to the system as per the Letter.

Just to let you guys know, Oudeis PMed me to say he will no longer be arguing in the thread. To return to the topic at hand... My thoughts are like this. Every Radiant has a universal skill they all have, the ability to draw Stormlight. Every Radiant also has a semi-unique skill; Surgebinding. Surges are shared with one other Order and are thus a little more selective. Finally, every order has a fully-unque skill. We know this to be Strength of Squires for Windrunners, for Lightweavers I suppose we can guess it'll be Memories or something like them. I think Bondsmith's might have the ability to alter the Nahel bond. As others have also noted, Skybreakers might also be able to tell truth/guilt. What I am suggesting is that between these unique/semi-unique and universal characteristics there is another level of semi-unique characteristics. For instance, suppose that Bondsmith's and Windrunners both get enhanced combat abilities. We know that the two Radiants we've seen from those orders are both good, Dalinar is a legend with Shardplate and Kaladin is gifted with the spear. This is the only way I could take the WoB to be true, the comment by Syl to be somewhat literal, and no conflict to exist here at all. Of course, I could be muddling cause and effect. Thoughts?

Sounds excellent. Okay, so if we're going to talk at length let me object to your tone. My argument is solid, to say it doesn't make any sense is hyperbole that cheapens the entirely rational argument we're going to have. If you want to sling mud and spin half-truths let me know, and I'll be glad to leave or spit venom as whim takes me. But let me get this clear, you do, in fact, believe Kaladin is skilled at arms sheerly due to his virtue of being a radiant? As it stands, Kaladin does train hard, do we disagree on this and are we in argument? If we agree, then it's a possible explanation for his skill. If we do not, then...well...that's a secondary debate to have. Kaladin could be good, simply by talent. Note that by 'talent' I refer to a mix of genetic, psychological and environmental factors. Now, to the piece-by-piece. It isn't. He barely blocks a strike, he has his foot hit and he is then hit in the side. After a moment of pain and fury he laucnhes a counter attack and hits a boy in the hand and the side. No, he doesn't. Sure there is, hell, when I was a boy we used to fight with sticks and knuckle and body hits are about as common as they come. Anecdotes aside, what happens there is not beyond a moment of inspiration. I'll go on to address this., No, it's not. This example is flawed, if further discussion is pertinent I'll return to it. We seem to have a different understanding of talent or natural skill. Suffice it to say I disagree with your notion. Someone with natural talent starts at a higher level of aptitude and/or better 'moment' skill and/or a higher rate of acquisition of skill. Any one of these three things could qualify at being a naturally skilled person. This is as I see it. Now, I'm going to split the thread here. Firstly, I'll share a little of own experiences. You can feel free to skip this, or not, as you desire. I'll italics it for your convenience. It may or may not be instructive, but it's not argumentative. The important part is that I believe you misunderstand the reality of combat. I'm not sure if you've had experience at any martial arts or other form of loose combat analogue. I've done many things from grappling and striking to archery. I''m also a student of HEMA. Some guys start and they are hopeless, you swing a punch and they couldn't parry it, they swing a punch and it has no direction or force. Give them a bokken or a kinai and they're equally ham-fisted. In a moment you disarm them or knock them off balance. Other people just get it. From the moment they pick a weapon up they just know how to stand, how to hold it. You swing and they block, they swing and the weapon goes where they want it. They are clearly superior to their 'average' peers. You attack and they correct. They might not be perfect, or even 'good' in an absolute competitive sense, but they have a strong grasp of the basics as if by sheer intuition. It's the same thing with archery, some people are long in playing with grip and draw and struggle to hit a target from ten metres on flat ground. Others just get it. They might know anything about wind physics or momentum, but when they lift the bow and pull the string it hits the target, they make a mistake and they correct it. Oh, they'll still struggle, but they just simply breeze past the 'novice' mistakes and it becomes a matter of going from 'good' to 'better'. Basically, I'd say 'skill' is a normal distribution with outliers both to the upper and lower bounds. Secondly. What is so hard about what Kaladin does? I disagree with your interpretation of the example. Kata are not competitive skill, they're not even measured on anything. . Kaladin wasn't fighting anyone else, he had literally no stakes. Hell, the big thing about procedural skill is that it takes so long to degrade. There's a reason the phrase 'like riding a bike' is a thing. Kaladin being able to execute a kata is just this. This is not a cyclist taking a year off and winning a tour de France, this is more like a cyclist taking a break and then cycling a long-familar road. Indeed, one could take this as proof of the intensity and drive which Kaladin must have trained at to be able to remember a high-level kata after months. Especially, if one chooses to accept the Nahel bond is not responsible. He's also depressed and nearly crippled.As good as one is, or as good as one can be, it's very hard to be any good when standing is troublesome. He does a decent job with the chasmfied though. I took the wind warping to be Kaladin tapping Stormlight, which doesn't grant skill, but does grant strength and speed. Or unconsciously using Pressure, Sounds double excellent. Shlee, on 26 Jan 2015 - 06:41 AM, said: That's kinda what I meant in my earlier post. You phrased it better. Have an upvote. Arondell, on 26 Jan 2015 - 09:07 AM, said: Pretty much as I took it. Oudeis, on 26 Jan 2015 - 10:14 AM, said: They are a different sort of 'sad', different sort of emotional trauma and even if they weren't...people have varying response to the same emotional trauma. It's the same reason why one day you might shrug off a bad day of training, or a break-up, or like...getting fired. Another time it might crush you. We know that post Tien he was driven, and in risk of burning out, by his own testimony. In contrast, post-Chasmfall he seems bitter and drained, without focus. Arondell, on 26 Jan 2015 - 11:16 AM, said: I agree.

I was going to address the Teft thing more directly, but that's been done and in better detail, so suffice to say I disagree and more or less for the same reasons already stated. As for the next part, if you are claiming that Kaladin only has superior skills because of Syl that's certainly debatable. I for one think the evidence is ambiguous, indeed, there are those who claim that Kaladin is nothing special at all (I'm not one of them, and I disagree with it but it's a stance I've seen.) Putting aside the existence of his superior skills, which I believe we both agree on, there's only really a question. Why is Kaladin so good at fighting? Thinking about it I see three real options. Kaladin is good because he's naturally talented. Kaladin is good because he's a Radiant and Kaladin is good because he trains hard. Obviously the reality could be a mix, so take it that we're discussing the dominant but not exclusive cause. So is Kaladin a natural? Yes. As you say, he picks up a quarterstaff and impresses all the locals at Hearthstone. Years later in Amaram's army he impresses his trainers with little prior learning, and later still (a matter of short years) he impresses both Teft, the Bridgemen and the guys in his original squad. I'm of the opinion that Kaladin is just naturally talented at everything, though. Like, even when he is a boy the townsfolk know he's a damnation fine surgeon and Lirin straight-up says that he'll be a better surgeon than he ever was. Plus, I don't think we've yet to see Kaladin actually make a mistake or screw up an operation in a major way. The only real counter I could think here would be the Shardblades. Second. Does Kaladin train hard? Yes, he does. We also know this from both what we've seen and what we've heard. I presume that Kal is a lot like his persona in WoR/WoK, and in both he is driven and pushes himself hard. We also having him say that he trained himself to the bone, figuratively, after Tien died. It's worth noting that even apparently being a natural, he still required a lot of training to actually become 'good' by his own estimation (he went from being best in the squad, to the company, to the army...or something to that effect.) Basically, I'd argue that rather than being a justification, Kaladin simply did work extremely hard at the spear to augment his natural talents. Third, and finally. Radianthood. It's a good point, and I think the biggest issue is that we may never know truly when a Radiant begins to get gifts, the most visible being Stormlight use and Surges. We know Dalinar has been doing it unconsciously, perhaps for years. Kaladin could well do the same. The closest to outright confirmation comes from Syl, in which she rather closely confirms that his strength is something they made together...but so does the biggest counter. That is, I believe Syl says that it was Kaladin's desire to protect his squad in Amaram's army that attracted her. So, thus his earliest quarterstaff feats cannot be the result of a Nahel bond and would bring the argument back to points one and two. This WoB would also count on the counter side. As a last note, it is possible that all Radiants had more general skills that just the Surges and Stormlight. It might be that superior fighting skills are something Kaladin has because he is a Radiant, but not something unique to him. It's worth noting Dalinar is also particularly talented at arms. Perhaps the division is by order, or perhaps it is based on individual character. So, in summary, I'd be inclined to acknowledge the possibility of Radianthood being important in developing potent fighting skills but it is very unlikely it is the only factor, and it I'd be inclined to say that practice and natural skill are still more important. I believe we do also have a WoB saying that Windrunners, in general, had a greater number of squires. Just some spitballing, but maybe in general Windrunners have superior squires and that means they can either have better, or more squires. Like, I think Lightweavers often had strong mnemonics but they might not all have been the same as Shallan and her Memories.

"We are Iriali, and part of the Long Trail, of which this is the fourth land." For accuracy.

Returned in kind, I accept your disagreement, or expression of feeling, in the spirit of polite discourse it was meant and stand by my own disagreement in a similar fashion.

Allow me to disagree. This is really more of a comment on the militaristic elite of any people in history. I, for one, never really got an American vibe at all from the Alethi. Maybe the French, but that's really just because of the uniforms and I think BS actually mentioned this at one point. The language puts me more in mind of like...Arabs or Indians, plus the curry. I don't see any commentary on either capitalism or consumerism either.

Ah, so the concern is more in a Stormfather-Dalinar vein then? As for that, I'd be inclined to go ambiguity-recency as we find out more and more, a current question should trump a prior one. That said a clear or specific answer should rank above a general. I'd still be inclined to take WoB as canon as the books, unless we have some reason to doubt.

I believe Dalinar tried not doing anything, and resolved that it was pretty much easier to just go along and do his best to learn. So no, I don't think it was a test. I think that maybe only lords/rulers could become Bondsmiths though, which would explain why it was hard to get in to. My main evidence for this is that the only Bondsmiths we know or suspect were all or have been kings/highprinces and the oath to 'unite and not divide' seems to only really be important if you have the power to unite or divide. Writing that, I think it'd be pretty hilarious if the Releaser oath was 'I will Divide and not unite"

Depends on the ambiguity of the question and answer. The problem is that as far as we know, BS has a very structured and well-planned universe. Sure there's probably things he didn't think of, but using his far greater knowledge he can probably provide a lot of answers at-the-moment. If people ask questions that confuse him, well, that's to be expected in some case as well. But I'd consider WoB canon as published books and annotations. Perhaps more so. More so because we've a limited insight into the cosmere in each book, and we don't always know what is happening even when it is actually happening.

Of course, the other breath magic system does in high enough quantities.

Well, the Heralds are bound to the Roshar system, so the halls probably couldn't be offsystem. Also, I think the third planet in the Roshar system is ashyn which has very little to do with Vorin mythology.

It might not even be honourblades, just modern shardplate.

Two things, We know Stormlight enhances strength from when Szeth fights Dalinar, Adolin and Kaladin the first time because a single backhand from him knocks Dalinar to his knees and bloodies him. As it is, it's mention many times that Dalinar is big, strong, built like a wall and Szeth is not. In fact, he's kinda small and fragile. There's other examples. Secondly as to Dalinar's particular skill with Plate, I'd say it's due to his proto-radiant status.

Forums are pretty fast and loose, don't sweat it. I'd point out though, that the Skybreakers are more about justice/the law than truth.