Savanorn

Well, there's actually some reasons for this. Firstly, and this is the strongest point, it is possible that both organisations are..say..."descendents" of the original order of Skybreakers. They may not be in contact or alligned anymore. I mean, it isn't like Nalan just chilled in Shinovar and dictated plans to both groups. Secondly, for all we know, Szeth presented the evidence and the Shamans named him truthlesss out of fear and or denial. Basically, what I mean, is that we don't know what the Shamans know and what they did for the sake of appearance. We also don't know that they could come to grips with the actual possibility of the immediate end of the world. Thirdly, Szeth seemed confident the Shamans could retrieve the Blade from whoever killed him. This implies to me that they do not lack for skilled warriors. Indeed, we know their culture doesn't value fighters so his "sacrifice" is essentially the loss of something worthless. I guess fundamentally what I am trying to get across is that both Nale and the Shamans seems to be trying to deny that a desolation in nigh. I could be entirely off mark on this one. Don't get me wrong.

With all do respect, while your argument is a good one, I'm inclined to disagree. Firstly, as to the issue of law, remember that Nale himself is rather liberal about this. When he sneaks in and kills Ym he has some justification under the law, but I rather doubt he's squarely in the bounds of it. Provided one could have thos semblance of an excuse, any such activities are easily excusable. Also remember when it becomes apparent Shallan is a radiant the question becomes "who trained her" and it is suggested to be either Jasnah or Helaran by...Vargo I believe. Finally, we don't know that Nale kills every and all Radiant, given the name of his order it is rather possible he'd leave Skybreakers alive. Not to imply that all who serve him are Skybreaker Radiants of course. It seems to be that at the very least Helaran went Ghostblood to Skybreaker, but as I said, it would seem possible to me he was also a surgebinder.

I like this. But I am not inclined to agree. Other people have made excellent points but to this I'd add that Skybreakers are most likely the order that endured. They may even be the Stone Shamans. For two reasons. Firstly, as seen in the Rysn interlude there is the ability of the Shin to detect lies. An ability we have considered to be of the Skybreakers. Secondly, there exists an organisation in Roshar right now called the Skybreakers which happens to be lead be a man who hunts other potential Radiants. This leads me to believe that the Order that betrayed the others is likely the one that is still betraying the others. It also seems to me that the Order most well placed to deceive would be the one that could tell the truth from lies.

He was both, as I recall. I suspect he was actually a proto Radiant as well. Putting this aside, though, when I get home this evening I shall find the appropriate references.

Oh no need to apologise, it was a good reply, even if I didn't ask the question. Good replies always deserve recognition. Have a tasty upvote.

I beg your pardon. I more meant so far as I was aware that Nin didn't refound the Skybreakers as a result of the Everstorm, because they already existed, regardless of whether they have Radiants on board or not.

Wait, didn't the Skybreakers already exist before the True Desolation? As I recall Helaran joined them and he did so significantly before the Everstorm began. Unless that was a lie. I mean I assumed Nale's henchmen from Lift's interlude were Skybreakers as well.

I agree with the aforementioned guys, copper doesn't really defend against attacks and so there is little reason for it to start with shardblades. On the note of Allomancy v other magic system. . . Mistborn are easily the most versatile magic wielders we have seen and only would become more so as new metals are discovered. If only because they're gifted with such a spread of powers. It would be like if a single Radiant had all ten surges. I will note though that provided with a decent supply of stormlight I don't think coinshots would be very helpful at all, not offensively at least, Szeth could happily tank stabs with spears and Kal and Shall survived ridiculous falls. Hell, Jasnah is impaled right through the heart. The surgebinder V allomancer debate is largely one of available investiture and knowledge. But it is also limited by what we know of the Surges (which is still extremely limited). I mean, lack of mutual knowledge greatly bias the match in favour of the surgebinder. Realistically they may simply appear unkillable to a mistborn with no knowledge or special weapons (daggers and coins alone would seem to lack the potency) and even with some atium it is entirely possible a mistborn might land a good "killshot" only to see the surgebinder recover with shocking speed. It also seems to me that the order of strength and speed granted by even a very limited intake of stormlight is considerably greater than that granted by allomantic pewter. The final thought I have is in regard to multiple lashings via stormlight in the case of a Windrunner or Skybreaker, but, presuming Serg the Surgebinder can lay hands on Allen the Allomancer (or Mandy the Mistborn) couldnt they just throw a ridiculous amount of stormlight into a lashing, say, ten times normal gravity toward the ground or something. This would easily overpower the steelpush and generate an impact the mistborn cannot heal from. I would be nore interested in Feruborn matchups v Surgebinders though. Like full Ferrochemist with a stack of metalminds against Szeth. (Or maybe Second Ideal Kaladin).

I suspect he really is Nin. Pretty good evidence, albeit a little opaque, that the Heralds are corrupted now. I suspect the touch of Odium.

You have to wake up pretty early to beat Old Savvy But you add some good stuff, which I've helpfully bolded.

We do know the answer to this, at least. The Alethi were surprised at the existence of the Parshendi, and initially didn't believe they existed at all, and for the vast majority of the Vengeance Pact War Parshendi were known to not surrender. Thus, we do know that they are not captured and broken.

Hzmm. I feel like a lot of this might be one of two things. Like, it is either deeply reliant on the subconscious. Or it would require very advanced mental control. So in this model a theoretical manipulation of the body, analogous to that performed by Vasher, would be like those ridiculously skilled monks who can halve their metabolism and try clothing in the snow.

Beg your pardon, I appear to have misremembered. I must have confused the two a little in my mind. This was the one I was remembered. Apologies for all confused parties.

Poor argument to take. The whole point of newbies is that they are new, this may be the first forum they have visited. A polite "did you know there's a search function? It's in the top right corner" does the same. Indeed it does more as it offers an method for raising conduct rather than needlessly slapping wrists. So you have positive, positive, best possible results for all parties under my scenario and...what? Pointless rudeness for yours? Any further argument is pointless as you are, essentially, saying "we should get to be rude because what they are doing is rude too." We want new kids, they should be made to feel welcome and educated to be more productive.

For me, it's almost the opposite. Usually a synthetic mix up in my head. I think Dalinar would look more middle-eastern, and likely big, imposing, but not regal.

Welcome! There's a page for you to introduce yourself as you wish, but we're glad to have you. I don't know when, exactly, they received their Ryshadium, but we know Adolin bonded his after he won his blade and we know Dalinar has had Gallant for a while. There is a searching function as well, so if you are unsure about if something has been said before you can take a look. That said, people have brought up the idea before that Ryshadium somehow have a sense for people who may become Radiants. I don't believe a consensus was reached, largely due to us lacking evidence so far. It makes sense, but Rhyshadium could also be independent of Radiants now, and it could even be a more complex issue...like maybe only certain orders can bond Ryshadium, or maybe all people with a Ryshadium could become Radiants, but not all do. I think IYDIGS means this, yeah. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I more or less agree with Beskar, I presumed the "one is a traitor to the others" to refer to orders of Radiants or Heralds, as this sentence appears twelve paragraphs later and Vargo has chastised himself for becoming distracted at the end of paragraph 15. To expand, while it is possible they are grouped by theme, it would seem to me more likely the Diagram would group them by object they found them on. I mean, in the absence of this forum or WoB, a diligent reader might only have the material in the books to go off, and generally Brandon is good at giving enough for future guesses and this is what P27 is likely to be for me. The sort of thing where a reader might go "one what? A Highprince, an order...a Herald?"

Praise be the Single Horn That Banishes the Dark. I'm not sure, to be honest, it'd be interesting to see for sure. Like...do new types of spren become born as ideals change and develop?

Don't take that tone with the newlings, skeda, it is unbecoming. Yessah.

Seconded. Tower of the Swallow came out in translation recently. I was suitably impressed. Definitely worth the read. I just finished Joe Abercrombie's First Law + Great Leveller works. Probably the best fantasy books I've read for a long while, espeically in regards to complex characters and morals, but some of the books are so bleak they make Martin and Mark Lawrence looks cheery by comparison.

Yeah. That makes lots of sense. I think there was a WoB about this. The reason for the Elendel basic being so fertile was because it was over a shardpool. I think it also talked about the shardpool on Nalthis.

Yeah, no doubt, but I kind of mean... Like a full powered Herald was probably more than a match for anyone, let alone the undoubtedly untrained and inexperienced Radiants of the time. I think Ishar was powerful not because he was a bondsmith, and thus not because of perks or surges, but because he was a Herald. I could be wrong, of course, but it is more that as you noted the Surges of the Bondsmiths alone don't seem particularly combat orientated. Especially when compared to the downright beefy mixes of things like the Releasers and Skybreakers. Do remind me, do we know if Heralds shared the perk of their Order? My gut suggests they don't, but it has been wrong. Sounds good to me. A more fleshed out version of what I was thinking more or less. I think the Releasers likely have a perk that enhances their aspect of Division.

This I like. I sort of imagined the bondsmith as the visionary, the king, the prophet sort of role whereas Windrunners are better as squadleaders, lords and generals. Like the two sorts of leadership. I mean, Dalinar can and does lead men, but I actually think he may be shown to be better at leading many highprinces than a single army. Like among the Heralds I could see Jez leading the group, but Ishi as the one with vision and goals.

Just to weigh in. Presuming Taln in WoR is at least somewhat like the original, he has better feats than Naln. Naln struggled to catch a exhausted Lift. Taln could catch darts midair. Admittedly the Heralds may not be good examples of the order they founded. I mean Taln was noted to be physically outstanding in more or less every mention. It could be a him thing and not a Stoneward thing. But, I imagine the Stonewards are the real CQC fighters whilst the Windrunners and Skybreakers are more specialist troops. So to speak. I mean their ideal sort of echos this. As to Bondsmiths, it depends how much they can alter Nahel bonds especially individually versus collectively. I don't think they're anything special in combat, however. I believe the Ishar quote is more referencing the fact that Ishar is a Herald and that unlike other Heralds who didn't know or care, Ishar realised the limits that could and should be placed on the budding KR. It also lets us see that, taking Ishar as an example, despite being an order that seeks peace and balance, they aren't Windrunners and are willing to drop their wrath.

Smashing, top work spool. Have a delicious upvote.