Kasimir
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Everything posted by Kasimir
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Fair point, especially with what @_Stick_ mentioned, given the clashes I've had with E!Devo in the past. Do you think Araris can stop a kill? Do you think Stick's power-set counts as a Thug? Do you think two players count as a lot? If you inherited Stick's powers, does it mean you'll survive if Devo kills you right now? Do you think it's worth test-driving? How does that work out? Number of others on at EoD too. I'm beginning to understand how Orlok felt, talking to Stick... That's my current state of thought, given TJ's frustration and clarification that there are Corrupted Epics and we have to kill them all to win. Either a Vexcave role upholding a general alignment-obscuring mechanic or a local alignment-concealer seems to be the best bet right now. Edited to add: @Amanuensis - TJ clarified he considers non-standard games to be something like FFA so he does not intend to rule out conversion games on the basis of his clarification.
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Some of us check in from time to time, yeah What's a little murder between friends eh? I don't even recall ever playing with you since LG15b, so it's entertaining to run into you again in another space game :eyes:
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Holy drek, Bort! Haven't played with you in forever! Welcome back bro!
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TJ has been PAFOing all questions about whether this is a conversion game but he also insists this is a standard SE game. And yes, agreed on regular numbers, which is why I was considering asking either Tani or Devo to scan TUA. The known power-sets are just weird too. I can't put my finger on why but all the redirects and target/role scanning just seems odd. Devo's Arson hypothesis is possible as well and I should add it to the options list but that feels like it sways things even further away from Village because then you also lack NK info on top of the game ending suddenly and that's just kayana. Where's the balance? @Archer — Huh. What did Mat say, and who did you scan C1?
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Sign-up ruleset indicates they do get a NK though. h/t @Amanuensis earlier in this thread. But I agree we have to work out what the balance is, if it's not a lack of a NK. Because she has to kill X Epics, and with at least one Elim and one Village in that number? Thank you. It feels so good to know I'm not the only person who has had it with the lack of flips. Sorry, I understand how it feels now, thanks to AG8 C1-2, and also, just this current situation.
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I'll put it this way - I run a lot of AARs after each game I play and look at the mistakes I made, and where I can do better, and then develop strategies to deal with them. If there's one thing I'm very aware of, it's my weaknesses as a player. Knowing this, and knowing that one of the biggest correctives I have to those weaknesses is now apparently missing is not making me a happy player at all. Anyway, the bottom line is, as you're still in my strongest currently-existing Village reads tier, I'd prefer you not to die just so we can work out what the hell is wrong with this damned game. I've been lost since C2 as well, and getting a flip off Mat was my big hope, but apparently that's just not going to happen now. Can't deny that seems to be the case. Interested in whether you consider Devo's claim plausible, because I still think that with the current number of Epics, it's a weird wincon to have and sort of asymmetrical. And I'm definitely wondering at the number of alleged redirects (or re-direct adjacent) powers. I'm still currently going back to the lack of a NK because with so many redirects flying around C2, you'd expect the kill to bounce too as long as it hit someone in that nexus of connections. So why is there no NK? TJ's exasperation and insistence this is a standard SE game IMO makes me lean towards the fact there is an Elim team and it's not quite a conversion game. And even in LG73, which could be won through other means than outnumbering, the Elim team didn't forgo a NK. Refusing to NK is a major shift in standard kill doctrine and I can't see what's motivating it. Options: Roleblock - unlikely; Elims have no reason to roleblock themselves, and a Village roleblocker would've claimed by now because if you roleblocked someone and there's no NK, that's a guaranteed Elim lynch. Actions economy - What could they be doing that's more important than NKing given their wincon? I feel like burning actions to keep alignments concealed from us doesn't make sense because surely there's an entire team's worth of action slots, and it seems unacceptably passive for them to keep obscuring flips without actually taking us out. No NK/Conversion - The first isn't possible given the ruleset when we signed up. The latter IMO doesn't really gel with TJ insisting this is a standard SE game, just fancier. Unusual kill doctrine - I could maybe see a Thaid team having an unusual kill doctrine, but key word: team. Who else would be down for it? I can't see E!Araris refusing to kill. Simplest answer - Someone didn't put the order in (sort of a Cham incident from AG8 but worse), Mat was using the NK and the lynch came first on OoA, or Devo's kill is actually the NK and Devo is lying. Not sure how to assess this as I'm now genuinely confused on Mat. I'm not thinking of anything else right now, which I suppose is a major failure of imagination. Anyway, probably bumping up my Village read of Illwei for that redirect. I'm assuming she did the Bard trick, and that's not something a Elim redirect would do to me - they'd probably do a Rioting-related redirect rather than what I suspect she did. >:( How are you keeping your cool. Yeah, Aman's started with that list, but I'm already confused by the amount of bouncing that's apparently happening from redirects. It's - odd, I suppose. Along with our two regulars.
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Fancy Riot doesn't mean drek if you can't aim it right - solving the game via analysis is more valuable; doubly so since we're not getting flips. With the current lack of an NK (again, under the assumption that Devo's kill is separate from the NK), this feels especially true. As you said, the AG was won by the Village showing up to do analysis, not roles. I recognise I'm radiating a lot of negativity in the thread right now but I really can't stop being endlessly frustrated at the fact there's no flip because I'm prone to having weird reasoning chains if I don't get any checks at all (see: that long raw analysis essay I pushed out on D2 of the AG before going to sleep and giving up) and the knowledge that this game will refuse to give me any sort of way of correcting bad reasoning is deeply off-putting. So if Devo needs a wincon kill, and would prefer to kill someone who consents to it, I'm down for it. Especially if we think Karn is E.
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Yeah - it looks like we have a Soothe somewhere, or else we'd see multiple interactions that (theoretically) cancelled out. But I'm reluctant to postulate multiple interactions when we don't have to. I wonder if this connects to the Gifted Soothe though. We both know what you were really trying to do, so why try to be cute about it? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Would prefer if my stronger Village reads don't die, please. Thanks. @Devotary of Spontaneity If you really need to kill a Village Epic and aren't sure if you hit your quota later on, I volunteer because I'm kind of done with being useless this game lol. I did not know it was possible to find a format I hate more than conversion games, but I've found one! Got it, thanks. I think what's kind of bothering me is - how do you then test or confirm your chain of reasoning? Because obviously if you build your read and stipulate, e.g. you think Mat is Village and work from there, then there comes a point where you have to wonder if there is a premise or an alignment-assignment somewhere that is wrong. But if this is flipless, how do you know you're wrong? How do you test yourself to know if it's correct or you're just tunnelling or whatever? I'm willing to, but I'm a one trick boi, alas I did get a bit confused because my role name seems to be so different from the other Epics that I wondered if something was wrong, but TJ told me it was just filler [Edited to add: Meant flavour] and asked me if getting a similar name was that important to me. At least he didn't swear at me this time! Believe he said last cycle he gets three Y/N questions. Current assumption is he sends them via TJ so there's no doc. Edited to add 2: Can't experience ML guilt if you don't know whether you MLed!
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I prefer not to either, but I think the lack of a flip is really ticking me off. My thought behind the mass claim suggestion really boils down to the fact we've not been observing a NK (unless we think Devo did use the NK C2) - but the game can't be that broken, or it'd never have gotten El and Elan's approval. So there must be something we're not seeing, and I highly suspect that for that, it'd help to know how the roles interface with each other. There has to be an underlying logic. For instance, it'd be weird if Archer's is the only one that interacts with the lack of alignment flips. (Also, that seems to imply that if we did find a way to switch flips on, Archer's powers go away? How does that work?) Sort of like Tyrian - if you see a lot of Thugs/Lurchers, start worrying about E!Coinshot. Yeah. He also said it's a standard game and to stop getting exotic so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It's not a point against Devo. I'm making the same point as I did about Striker back when we thought the bounce and imperviousness was real. Basically, why would a GM put a role into the game if all the role had to do to win was probably put in three kills back to back, or vote on someone? Look at how target-rich in Epics the environment is. Granted, hitting an Elim Epic is harder (and if Devo is telling the truth, implies there are Elim Epics - which we already knew, but it's good to doublecheck since we're apparently all experiencing an SE-existential crisis right now.) On the other hand, Striker kept claiming he had a mysterious wincon but was also invulnerable to NKs. Which, if true, again seemed strange because if he could only die to the lynch, then his role becomes one that is extremely dependent on the Village for survival and victory - and that's just odd, because why are you a neutral then? To put it another way, the difficulty level for Devo's wincon seems so low right now I'm a little suspicious of whether it's correct. But then, it does make a bit more sense with obscured alignments. If it reveals more about them, I'm down for it. If it doesn't, what's the point? Archer called the lack of flips before it played out. That gives him fairly high Epic credence in my book. I'm actually surprised @Tani hasn't tried stealing Archer's powers as that might be useful in terms of giving us info.
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If it were a specific mechanic, what sort do you think it is? 1. We're not interested in what everyone's powers are. We're interested in finding Elims. Not all info is the same kind of info, or equally valuable with regard to our objective. 2. I'm not interested in further entertaining this line of discussion and revisiting a more exotic form of the D1 lynch arguments. If this were a QF6 sort of game, I might be persuaded since that's essentially a "who blinks first" showdown. There is no vote minimum, therefore someone will die one way or another and I'd prefer we direct the shot rather than let RNGesus take the wheel. The point is moot. I'll be honest that I just shot a PM to TJ asking if there's something I'm missing about my role. I'm noticing there's something that's a bit of a deviation from the others (especially since Karn's role PM dropped) and what has been said so far about Epics, but TJ seems to be confused so maybe it's just me being paranoid. I'm starting to swing powerfully towards mass claiming at this point because we just know nothing anyway, but either way, minimally, I'd hope get some kind of accountability going if Orlok can bounce target scans off Striker. @Devotary of Spontaneity - Interested in whether you'd consider scanning TUA, under my Padan Fain hypothesis. But I'm starting to think that if we hypothesise the kill gives alignment info, then maybe we should request Devo doubletaps the lynch. Archer seems unaware of whether Mat can lie, but that just builds more confusion: because if Mat can lie, then why would Mat give an honest answer to Archer's questions anyway if Mat is Evil? That just doesn't really make sense as a way of detecting alignment. And the same problem stands: having the only way of detecting alignment depend on one player is extremely volatile. Yes, but when you're designing the role as the GM, you don't think about balance or win con achievability by looking at the player. In such a target rich environment, if you hadn't attracted that D1 attention, it feels like you'd have had a substantially easy time fulfilling your wincon. Honestly you almost sound like an SK. Yeah, if the theory is correct, then it was the other way around in LG7. Kills obscured, but the lynch was the only method of death that revealed alignment. I'm curious - could you try asking TJ if your kill reveals alignment? I suspect you'd get PAFOed but my theory is that if you do get PAFOed, the Elim team probably would've too. Araris swooping in by being laconic again. @Ashbringer In this context, what do you mean by tricksy? Thaid. Edited to add: TJ clarified the oddity is flavour, rather than anything significant. I tried. @Illwei - You play quite a bit offsite. How do you guys handle flipless?
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I'll come back later to do justification but that's essentially the problem. Also, @|TJ| — is there a minimum vote threshold? Because if there isn't, we're committed to a lynch any way you slice it so this line of conversation is a non-starter. (I do think it should be a non-starter anyway depending, because of Sja problems if you think we are in [Convert World] and obvious reasons if we are in [Regular SE World]. TJ keeps complaining in response to my questions that this is a normal SE game so he doesn't see why we keep asking all the questions. Funny that, because I'm usually not locked out of a standard SE game and shut down in terms of effectiveness because of the lack of a flip is killing my ability to do vote analysis without having to build in each separate path—which gets dicey very fast as interactions increase—or just to even correct my assumptions. Maybe I should take this as a sign to engage dgaf mode because it's clear I'm not going to get what I need to do my own small part as a player ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Anyway, my frustration aside, I think he's not wrong it's probably a standard SE game. I think events do include player death and I'm starting to wonder if someone here is actually Vexcave and we need to ID and kill them for alignment flips, since the D1 write-up suggests that Vexcave does fog. Which is probably a conspiracy theory and a sign of how done I am. I'm starting to understand how Orlok feels about drowning in thread volume and so being unable to use his dominant playstyle effectively. The seeming lack of a NK is especially egregious given the number of redirects apparently flying around in this game. Even if we suspected Mat put in the kill, it's odd because who put it in then for C2, Karn? That requires willful bad play from the Elims. In [Convert World], the convert should be able to kill while Sja converts someone else. So why is there no kill? One option is that Devo's C2 kill was actually the NK. I do wonder if it's a true claim from a certain point of view—she only acquired the kill C2 because she was converted C1. Devo's wincon is odd to me because there are so many Epics that it feels like the role was always going to have an easy path to victory, which means there's a catch we likely know nothing about.
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k Edited to add: When you're done trying to be cute, did you by any chance redirect Mat to himself C1? Edited to add 2: Gonna step away from the cycle for a couple hours. I think the chaos gremlin EoC and the lack of a karking flip are irking me more than they should.
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There's still no alignment flip?! What the bloody hell TJ. How do you expect us to ID Elims if we don't even know how the hell a player flips. Ugh. I'm going back to sleep. This can be worked out later. Edited to add: P. S. TJ told me I was redirected to someone else. I had targeted Archer, trying to Riot him to Karn. But I was redirected to an ineligible target so my Riot failed.
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Ngl I was going to bed and y'all burned right through the damn painkiller fog.
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TUA, Aman, off the top of my head. Believe Aman said in thread he suspects STINK isn't as well. So three?
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Aww man, sorry to hear, Orlok. Get well soon :/ Long story short, Devo claimed neutral, needs to kill some Epics, wants to generally kill Elim Epics and co-exist with the Village. That's about as much as I internalised before the shab'buir began.
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@|TJ| This is all your fault, now get in the damn DM so I can swear without upsetting the children >:(
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Kas wants to bring down the wrath of two votes on Araris, Thaid, Exp, and basically everyone except Aman involved in this clusterfeth. Except Aman. Gods above guys, do you thrive on chaos??? What happened to Lawfulness? To Order? What happened to just Just I can't even. I don't even. Why are all of you like this. I need a drink. Don't yell for me if the thread is doing more kayana drek.
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Tfw it sounds like one of my lean Village/null+ reads is gearing up to vig kill another null+ read -.- Edited to add: This is the only based reaction in this clusterfeck and I wish the NK had hit me N1 rather than apparently being swallowed into the fabric of spacetime >:( Edited to add 2: What the bloody hell do you mean.
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It would explain why Devotary stayed on Stick and why the reasoning didn't check out. Once Mat claimed non-Epic scientist, he simply wasn't a viable target. What's interesting though is as Ash or someone pointed out, Stick softed power role but didn't say Epic. And Devo certainly didn't scan Stick either.
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Well, we know that the missing NK did not hit anyone involved in this clusterfeck because neither Araris nor myself are dead?
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You only scan role, correct? Not alignment? Think it's suggested.
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I believe my C2 reads had him as null+ the moment he made the meme about playing up newness (no more 'too lost to be Elim' credit, but at the same time, revealing it there and then is kayana for an Elim), but I minimally wonder if he could do with some pressure, given how chaotically he's been playing. More tactically and less out of annoyance with the chaos, probably better to drop that on Karn, seeing as we seem to have some level of confirmation between Devo, Striker, and Orlok.
