Kasimir
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Everything posted by Kasimir
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hi =) “An idea is like a virus, resilient, highly contagious. The smallest seed of an idea can grow. It can grow to define or destroy you.”
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Got it, thanks Elan As you can infer from my extremely unhappy reaction, there is no mention of me having overcome my weakness and achieved inner peace/Nirvana. I am now exceedingly concerned. My role actually has - a name. As in, a proper name. It's not something like Knighthawk Scientist which is a job description. It's an actual name. And I've not been very subtle about hinting at it as I dropped a bunch of memes about it C1 even if I didn't say anything and tried to pass myself off as a Regular at first (helped by the fact I legit forgot at some point I was an Epic and just thought of myself as a Rioter.) [Yes, I'm being a bit more circumspect here, but I think if you check the first page of C1, you'll figure the name out, as well as the theme of my ability. I don't really want to explicitly say it as I'm not sure how to paraphrase in this case without messing with the rules, but I figure pointing at the hint can't hurt.] Also have not been told I have a weakness, much less what it is. So duplication...I don't know. Thematically it'd be weird to have say, two Amans running around in a game, if you get what I mean. Since it's a proper name. Could there be two reskins of the same power-set? I suspect so, really. TJ's rule clarification was very specific as I asked him what happened if multiple vote manips hit the same target, and he framed his reply to me in terms of multiple Riots and Riot-Soothe interactions. (For the record - no effect, and in the latter case, Rioter still loses own vote.)
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>:( @|TJ| >:(
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.... ..................... ................................................ ................................................................... If this happens, I'd request to be put out of my misery. I absolutely detest conversion games and getting converted and this is not making me a happy Kas right now. (Though I suppose you can infer something from the intensity of my reaction anyway.)
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I can answer this, but I want to @Elandera first as I am concerned this brushes against the ruling with regard to using text of GM PMs. I grant it's a grey area since we're likely not going about explicit text, so would like to confirm with the IM first if that's alright with you. Specifically, concerned about this one: If she gives the green light, I'll respond with a simple binary answer or paraphrase. That good? FYI, this is possible but I asked TJ a rule clarification about vote manipulation interactions and his response was framed in terms of Rioter-Soother interactions so I'm not too sure about that.
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Exhausted derp - this should read 'if Mat flips E, I'd feel better about Stick', at least prima facie, given stability.Tell [Edited to add as I skipped too fast: Telling me this might be a D1 Elim nonreactivity problem again is gonna make me :| but I recognise it's something to KIV.] Sorry I remember your Wilsoneese responses though, and Araris fixing those up! Tell me about it Instead, random thought scratch table mode is a go! If you're too far behind/too burdened and don't want to reinvent the wheel when it comes to Mat analysis, suggest waiting for C3 and/or working around it. TJ has PAFOed my question on alignment obscurement and revelation. There is a chance (or at least my personal suspicion is) that alignment flips are given about a cycle later - as mentioned briefly earlier, I feel that permanently withholding alignment knowledge is too punishing to the Village, thus suspect a delayed reveal mechanic (my thoughts would favour this), if not a decent amount of deceased-targeting alignment scanners (with some resilience/redundancy built in.) I don't see how else you can have no alignment flips and not make it actively punishing to the Village. tldr; recognise it's a personal risk management call since Mat was such an integral part of the last cycle that yeah - but at the same time, given constraints, feel like the risk of redoing once a full flip is obtained is worth highlighting. Returning to this because viscerally feeling this so just wanted to express sympathy/empathy/solidarity :/ We both belong in overcommitment jail I suppose. I really need to realign it in my head as chilling/playing with my bros, because I did laugh when I read your tables, and it did remind me of why I signed up for both games, and hopefully by reorienting, feel less of that overwhelming sense of guilt/overcommitment pressure. P.S. TJ, you made PMs default closed so you can just deal with me doing this in the thread P.P.S. Asked TJ if role-blocked kills appear in the write-up, and he said no, but seeking clarification to make sure my understanding is correct. And just for you conversion game junkies, he's also PAFOed whether this is a conversion game and I've expressed my immense displeasure in the form of a screaming seagull meme. Y'all welcome Edited to add 2: Okay, he straightforwardly clarified that roleblocked kills do not appear in the write-up as blocked and survived.
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A. General Engagement With Thread B. End of Cycle Thoughts: C. Current state of reads: @Karnatheon Interested in how you were induced to swap trains. Tani as I don't expect @Szeth_Pancakes to do much answering, as per his blue text. And once again, I've been ninjaed so often while writing this up... Hi, Overcommitment Bro. Nice to meet you here Ah, that rare sighting of Orlok's sense of humour showing up But you do recall PMs are default closed, right? P.S. @Orlok Tsubodai - I don't think Mat is known non-village, unless you're claiming a scan. It looks from what Archer said and the write-up suggests that alignments are default obscured, though I grant this could be an assumption.
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Theoretically it should be easier to chill in a game with PMs and where your bros are playing, right? Right? Edited to add: Going to see if I can do better at chilling in this game if I remind myself that I'm here to chill and have a great time with my bros, with some game-solving on the side Chill Kas mode engaged. I want to be the guy doing the analysis and stuff and RPing because it sparks joy, not because I feel I have to, and I want people to be able to get that I'm in the zone and having fun. IDK, Orlok's post about not knowing how to enjoy SE anymore really hit me hard because it's become so much about duty and pressure and guilt less about what I want or what makes me happy.
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... If you're telling me bloody TJ scammed me into signing up for a conversion game, we are going to have words. Conversion games can go to Braize! Also, you asked me an or question. The answer is yes. Sigh. Yes, yes, am Epic who forgot I was Epic because I filed my role mentally as Rioter. Have the feeling TJ won't let me live it down. Low key tempted to Riot Striker and check which bloc a redirected vote ends up on, but due to the amount of vote manip flying around, have a feeling it'll get complicated. Might be worth a shot though. Edited to add: Let me drop some of the clarifications I received when I asked TJ about my Rioting C1 as some of it diverges from Tyrian EA rulings: -I don't need to have voted to Riot -I can't Riot a no vote to a vote -I can't Riot a vote to a no vote -I can't Riot anyone who didn't vote -If someone unvotes and my action fails, then I don't lose my vote -I was told that my Riot succeeded So if we're postulating an extra vote lost, it has to be a Soothe. Only exception I can think of is the case you pull a vote to the wagon you are already on. No Riot, no vote lost. Plus, can't Riot to no vote.
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Under normal circumstances, anywhere between 20% — 25% depending on distro.
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Right. So there was no Elim kill. That's... Decidedly odd. I'm just going to 'fess up because I think this makes the situation even more bewildering. I'm a Rioter. I had my order as set to Riot Mat to himself and swapped to Rioting Karn to himself with the last minute vote switcheroo. This makes the situation with two votes missing from Karn even odder to me because it suggests hidden interactions or a cancellation somewhere.
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Actually this is a good question. What happened to the Elim kill? Edited to add: @Amanuensis — Had her as light Village off that early interaction with Archer.
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Archer has some talking to do. Also holy chull what, that's a lot of vote manip. I'm seeing — I'm not even sure how to make sense of the interactions. Let's model this off Emotional Allomancy first — it may not be right but it's an understood ruleset. 2 votes missing from Mat, 2 from Karn, and 1 added to Stick. So minimally we have one Rioter, and a bunch of Soothers, depending on how you model the interactions. Or may a second Rioter who Rioted to a no vote? God, I'm getting Tyrian flashbacks... Could be a double vote too for the Stick people, I guess. But damn, that's so many...
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who knows anymore lion-dragonfly-vulture dance anyone?
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He's complaining we're switching things around too much for him to keep up, which is understandable, so he'll need more time. End-cycle volatility is an important part of the Sacred Burden of GMing and I'm glad we're making TJ work hard
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I'll be honest. My first preference is always an Elim, or someone we think more likely to be an Elim. Plus, Axl on D1 votes - as I said, sort of my view anyway, with asterisks. Part of this is me realising that - I just can't on Mat anymore. If it's not obvious, I've been having a hard time disentangling the 'feel' I get from our interactions from the reasons I see in play. I don't know how much of that is me being so hung up on ML guilt from AG8 (sorry STINK) that it's tainting my approach to any contested lynch because I'm dead terrified of MLing even though I know rationally it's highly unavoidable and also necessary. As I said, I really need to take the time off. I'm aware of that. Until I do, I'm a liability. Because I'm prone to just chasing myself in anxiety and questioning everything :/ Ah soddit. Mat Karn
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@Matrim's Dice This may disturb you, but the Sacred Coin prefers you to Stick, and Karn to you :|
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What will you do next Turn if we don't get an alignment flip, by the way? Me, returning to the thread rn to find...idek
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I'm taking a deep breath, and trying to put aside all emotion. It's clear that I've not fully - recovered from the AG and a part of me is screaming in absolute refusal at the idea of potentially MLing someone again and bringing back Iguana feelings. I am going to make one last push and to step back because I don't think I can afford to continue this slip into that spiral again. If necessary, I will step back for all of Cycle Two and meditate until I can get a hold of myself and my feelings. If I still can't get over this, I will request a pinch-hitter and to be struck from active player lists until I can get a grip on myself and my guilt because this helps no one. I apologise to everyone for being unable to uphold my commitment and acknowledge I should not have signed up in my current state. It looks like the two live options for me are going to be Mat or Stick. I guess I could just side-train vote, but it feels like determinedly trying to avoid the issue I don't want to deal with so I don't get to take the easy way out. I think it's clear that if I allow myself to fixate too much on how this feels, I'm just going to chase my own self into doubt. So that's a nope. Just gotta let it all go. The main issues against Mat in my view are: Handling of Szeth suspicion Comparison to Swan Thaid (Added thanks to Aman's post) - Role issue I don't know where I stand on the Szeth issue. The symmetry with my attitudes towards Araris is strong. I can't speak for Mat's doxastic states, but I at least was prepared to push or look into Araris a little more as I considered the gut reaction a "Hey, Listen!" moment. I also listed a willingness to go onto Araris end-C1; Szeth was a one-liner. So there's that. I accept the point that there's a disanalogy with Swan, but rationally I feel it's a collective problem, which means it's partly self-caused. I agree it might be a lot to ask to both defend yourself and to expand the discussion at the same time given the onslaught, but I still think that there were other candidates on the table, even if they weren't being attacked as prominently, e.g. Stick. I still do think you tend to shade more defensive when Evil, and I still do think you've had Village games where you got attacked and were more chill about it. If I set aside how our current exchange and the emotional white noise in my head makes me feel, then I come back to that. Thaid. Still feel I was overly-hasty in giving you credit for the Thaid exchange at the very start - bracketing any knowledge of Thaid's alignment, if Thaid is aware you don't want to kill them, then the stab vote loses all pressure and becomes really performative. But I also feel :| about the exchange with Thaid, later on in the cycle. I'm - confused about you feeling triggered by Thaid going onto you because everyone else did. It's an understandable frustration, but it shades close - in contrast with your views on my takes and Aman's - to an Elim going, "I shouldn't be caught out this way." Maybe that's where the whole ML reasons talk brings me back to. I find Aman's role issue mention persuasive as something that's - odd, I suppose - because I'd forgotten you stated having that singular question, and the moment I saw your role, I too had multiple questions on how this is supposed to work. The main issues against Stick in my view are: Transitivity problem Unremarkable first half of C1 I'm generally - with some asterisks for where I depart but this is a bit too long for an exegesis - of Araris's D1 lynch views. This is specifically relevant because Stick's unremarkable first half of C1 does put her in a particular Elim profile in my head (not quite lurker - prowler?) zone, but that's not quite an argument for lynching her, only an argument for not being particularly invested in saving her. Specifically, it doesn't compare favourably to if I have active reason to go for a player. My issue with transitivity in light of the mindmeld problem is that I feel like it boils down to a real issue of priority: because the direction of implication here is from Mat to Stick. E!Stick would absolutely be okay with defending V!Mat on the basis of mindmeld and it wouldn't come across as being particularly strange (in fact, the refusal to do so is strange), so the logical direction has to be from Mat to Stick rather than the other way around. Rationally, I think we need a Stick or Mat lynch today. One way or another, the two trains have outcompeted the others, and I'm by and large currently committed to light V reads (or null+) on competitors, so refusal here is a non-starter. If we don't, we'll likely have to come back to this because we need a flip, one way or another. Bracket the potentially obscured write-ups issue for now. We work with what we've got. In summation: Striker, hello darkness Mat my old friend. Final parting shot: On Stick's views on Thaid, I submit Thaid is either the most committed Elim method actor ever (even Mark and myself didn't commit that hard - you stick out too strongly!), or he's just really genuinely that lost. I challenge anyone to go back over Thaid's posts and go "Yeah, uh, actually Thaid is Elim and his team told him to act that lost" or "Yeah, Thaid's team just left Thaid in the dark like this." My read is very strongly on "very lost new Village player" right now. Kas out, hopefully to return to you in better condition, with less overcommitment and a completed exam.
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I know, but my point is that why expect a Scientist-type role? That seems to work only so long - actually, even if role is revealed, it might not be an issue. It's just like a AG7 Forger.
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But why alignment? Wouldn't role make more sense? Unless I'm making some mistake, there's no reason to think that a dead Elim Epic is more or less usable than a dead Village Epic? ?
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rip sorry i think i had already been expressing concern about the mat situation to elan - i know he said he was chill but /shrug so when i was this tired and low on SAN, i just sorta thought u were telling me to not clamp down on him so and went 'oh crap my bad' yeah i wanted to chill but i feel this is thoroughly going out the window now :| thanks though for the reminder and apologies that i didn't get it :| at least...elan gets something to laugh about? maybe? I get that, but I have to say i feel a bit :| about it in that you usually want to put down even a sliver of reasoning. You've mentioned you do this, sometimes to your own detriment. This is a bit eh. In any case, if you get some time, be interested to hear some of your whys but I fully get the super busy deal. You went from voting on Illwei (finding her sus) to voting with her, i.e. following her reasoning onto someone she IDed as sus and Illwei (and some Aman) have been the main people behind the Stick push. There's a reasonable question to 'show your working' - why did your thoughts change? Why that shift in view on Illwei/Stick? Did you come by it honestly? Remember that in context I was talking about who I'd be willing to swap to if Mat convinces me. IMO Exp and Illwei and Archer (the other live trains) were non-starters for me because I am committed to varying degrees to thinking them Village, so it'd be kayana of the highest degree for me to be down for a switch to them. I sort of like Drake's train negotiations tactic even though I find it a bit chaotic - when he used it on me in the AG, I found myself compelled to ask direct contrastive questions. Did I want you dead that badly? Was I really this neutral about the existing trains? Since I'm currently still very conflicted, I might as well throw it out there and see what Mat and others say if I indicate I am willing to take a third option if persuaded and outline some starters and non-starters for me. See above. Possible. Lots of questions surrounding how that works, though. Wonder if it functions more like a Lifeless Commander role but unclear. Why a logical inference? I'd be interested in hearing more about it, but at the same time, he's citing Illwei's reasoning on you. A lot of people are citing Illwei's reasoning on you, and my main issues with you have really been the fact you don't stick out (lmao) to me for the first part of the cycle, and that I'm still trying to work out your transitivity problem with Mat due to your mindmeld issues. Is there a third train you would like to persuade me to go on to?
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-.- Ok getting sleep. For context at this bizarre exchange, I panicked, thought I was overaggressive on Mat or just spamming the thread with irrelevant stuff, and so was being asked to chill and turned myself in. No comment on my tunnel vision. I. Need. More. Sleep. And exam. Good. Night :|
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??? Is there some rule I missed? Edit: Anyway doesn't matter, sorry about that, have turned myself in to Elan for summary judgement.
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Not you - I'm tired though as exam week has been brutal and I have been paying sleep debt all the way from early Jan Work, studies, SE, sleep: pick any three. So I guess any argument I make is literally an argument from exhaustion But no, I was making a more disconnected point that I should have signalled better but did not as I was tired - and that's that I feel the multi-quote barrage is in some way an argument from exhaustion sort of tactic, and on some level, I'm not convinced it's the best way to play SE (see: disconnected point, not really sure it belongs here, not really sure it belongs in meta either, but when I'm tired, I'll say anything that comes to my mind unfiltered) - that is to say, I feel like it could potentially lock people out of the thread, and I also feel that it perhaps does not promote accuracy/truth-seeking, and that's something I've been simmering in my head as this game goes on. (I have much stronger views on how many of our methods really do work, but that's neither here nor there but I have been known to talk epistemology with SE people when I get drunk / grouchy old man on porch enough. Or dead enough I suppose.) I was also commenting part of this comes from intra-disciplinary awareness since argumentation and rationality is the bread-and-butter of philosophy as a discipline: that there are many ways to bleed an argument, especially at the joints. If you want to 'win', you bleed the argument out, along with some other cheap tricks you learn if you want to get published. It's common in some point-scoring fights among the younger grad student crowd (in my very disparaging opinion) and sometimes I do have mixed feelings when I see the same tactics at play in SE, even if not applied consciously. There's a reason that a lot of fresh undergrads who get introduced to Plato intuitively feel that Sokrates isn't 'fighting fair.' (Feel free to join in, @STINK and @Orlok Tsubodai, though maybe we shouldn't turn the thread into philosopher central. TOO LATE NOW MUAHAHAHAHA.) There's a whole meta-philosophical debate about how to engage productively, in a way that makes the discipline more constructive, and better able to seek truth, and one of the insights I liked involved taking care not to engage for the purposes of engagement or deconstruction but to advance the debate as a whole, to make some sort of advancement beyond the argument grinding. In this context, I take it as an admonishment not to just focus on drilling down to seek clarity on each point of the arguments for and against you - that's fine, clarity is always good, but that's not really all that good in the broader context of the gamestate. We want suspicions to be broad and for more candidates to be discussed. And that's where I don't necessarily share your read on Araris - I agree it's consistent with either alignment Araris because that's very much his philosophy, but I still appreciate him trying to bring another train forward, even if I don't agree with it. IDK, I do think it's a collective ball dropped. I'm not going to just hold it against myself. Anyway. Moving on because I ramble as a grouchy old dude apparently. So just to be clear - that comment wasn't about you. It was me expressing my distaste for part of what the cycle had become. It's not a moral distaste, but it is a pragmatic and probably on some level, professional distaste. (I'm waiting for someone to comment this is vintage LG12 era Kas since I don't really unleash this part of me in thread anymore ) I know - the Ash thing was me pointing out that pragmatically, catching every ball wasn't going to make much of a difference to Ash, so you went to great lengths, only to cement yourself as a major chunk of the cycle, and part of this is absolutely on everyone, including how Aman and myself went about asking, but also, I do feel it was a - shall we say - interesting defensive choice on your part and so partly a self-caused problem. In that regard, I guess I can buy that some of the fundamental dynamics were different from those Swan confronted. Not you. Aman said he had some, someone else commented on how it was weird Aman also suspected Danex when you'd voted Danex at some point, and I should probably have @ Aman and am doing so now because I'd really like to know what his thoughts on Danex are too @Amanuensis :/ Well, at least I'm going to get sleep and finish my exam before I come back :/ I think I really have to. Cutting it a bit too close. You realise this is going to increase Szeth's credence in Evil!Mat, right? Some Dragonflies want to watch the world burn At the risk of causing Matrim's Dice [Edit: @|TJ|, @Elandera, made this bigger because the green was hiding despite bolding] to scream once again - Striker. @StrikerEZ - How's the playstyle switch working for you, care to share with the class? Current pool of people I am not willing to vote on this cycle, not in any particular order: <Aman, Devo, Illwei, TUA, Thaid, JNV, Mint, Archer, Experience> Italicised JNV and Mint as they are nonstarters for pragmatic reasons. Current pool of people I can be talked into voting for this cycle, not in any particular order: <Karn, Orlok, Tani, Ash, Striker, Araris, STINK, Stick, Szeth, Danex> Italicised Striker - not a fan of the shift towards being erratic as I feel it makes him harder to read, which is part of why I want Striker to get some more pressure, but also do not want to turn this into a playstyle lynch. My current problem really is that I have more light Vs than anything. For Mat, I'm currently in a :| ???? sort of state. @STINK, based off your ISO, why aren't you voting Mat? To be honest, while guessing the GM is always an exercise in futility and potentially madness, TJ does love his role madness games. There's powerful reason to categorically deny this is role madness, but I would not be surprised if there are more players with roles than regulars. Or to put it another way: throw a stick and it would be unsurprising if you hit a player with a role.
