Kasimir

It's interesting to me you don't seem to consider Elan such a candidate, given that Elan and Fifth also very clearly have non-trivial playhistory. Fair on the first part, as I misread the first quote; but nevertheless, if you believe conversions are statistically full and best run with on D4, then wanting to go after Szeth (as noted in the quote, a supposed converter profile) seems like a very strange choice since, again, if we're running on purely statistics, you believe we have a better shot going for potential converts since there's now a full roster. I'm also still not over the fact you posted a NAI read of Xino and a negative read of Szeth but voted Xino. That just seemed like a rather odd decision and potentially suggestive that the vote was motivated by reasons apart from the read. You could certainly argue this is a weakened argument since I actually believe V!Szeth, but the misalignment still doesn't seem right to me, and I have some suspicions of what was going down with Szeth which dovetail nicely with the projected conversion failures. Edited to add: Or, notably, STINK, who also has non-trivial playhistory with Fifth, including LG74

Hope you had fun! Edited to add: Don't disagree this is possible, but DeTess has been consistently banging on Archer each cycle, which is probably why Elan said we'd been arguing over Archer every cycle when it's mostly just DeTess and a bit of you (this one being the one where Archer asked you to just go for him.) I will say I'm a bit surprised DeTess 180-ed on you so quickly because that was a Village lean last cycle, and I'm not fully sure even last cycle would have persuaded me to reverse a V lean that way. But maybe it's a DeTess thing, IDK. IDK, I guess it's a blindspot for me because part of me wonders why DeTess has been apparently left unaffected by conversion, but also I vibed very hard with this post because: Pretty much Elan's post rang alarm bells for pretty much everyone in Roshar. Hard to say for TBB because of timing, but I slightly V!lean TBB so that's not the biggest deal. We might have been riding a huge Archer tunnel at that time, but I do think it's a relatable viewpoint that that post just read bad to us, and that seems to me then to be a fairly natural reaction. Edited to add 2: For TBB it's a weak read - vibe/tone mostly, and ran a comparison to LG81. I'm fine with being talked into it if there's an E!TBB case.

Honestly I am not sure I see you teamed with Archer, contra DeTess. I think Elan could be, but I think Araris is a better teammate in this world. I do think you might be from Khriss's faction though, and I kind of have a feeling that we ended up smack in the middle of an inter-faction tussle last Day. Edited to add: Actually, what about this: who then do you see teamed with Archer potentially?

What do you see as being the point of this statement if you are a Villager?

I admit I chuckled a bit. At least there's no insanity this time? I have a suspicion about this but I don't think I can articulate it publicly. Suffice to say I do think the roleblock claim is a lie. Worth keeping in mind Elan has been defending Archer from the start and did have a few strange votes that aren't consistent with her stated suspicions. (Thinking about her take on Szeth v. Xino here.) Yep. I think Village-side, we need to be careful with our charges, but may eventually need Nalthis if they are continuing to just exist in the game but refuse to vote. Otherwise, the voting gap will continue to increase. There's a temporary ceasefire with Aut but quite frankly I don't envy our chances against Elims and and a three-vote swing. We really need those people back in the fight* if they're Village. *There's a case for Endowment or denying the Elims Endowment but it's very likely we'd regret Endowment's Intent wincon, and I think it's very clear that the Village obtaining Endowment and staging a mass dead doc jailbreak would be a huge red line to all three Elim factions, which is not, in my view, a position we can defend convincingly at this point of the game. I'd put Araris on the table as well. I think an Araris-Archer team is fairly plausible, and when I asked Araris via PM for his view on Archer, he used more or less the same line as Elan and claimed a Village read of Archer. Edited to add: I keep coming back to this statement since IMO this was almost certainly a perspective slip. And - pardon me if this sounds just a tad too arrogant, but I feel like there's only one player a consideration like this would be seriously germane for. Well, two, but one of them is GMing this game. So yeah, among other things (Araris's defense of Archer, quiet sniping between the two of them that never amounted to anything serious), this is what makes me put extra weight on an E!Araris world. I also feel there's more inconsistencies in Elan's arguments that make me feel they're about convenience rather than necessarily a consistent worldview: (1) (2) Note to self: potential Mat-Elan team over Szeth? Unsure. (3) I'd note also that both Archer and Elan advocated a similar strategy of ignoring vocal players and looking in a category I'll abbreviate as LPLA (low profile, low activity.) In the first instance, it does feel like raw opportunism, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was also a way of shielding either majority of the team from scrutiny, or at least key members. I don't think doing so is prima facie mistaken but it should be revelatory in light of Archer's flip and (quite frankly) the fact Elims will obviously respond to where thread attention is going and we were quite obsessed with LPLA from N0-N3. ...I will also be quite annoyed if I'm the only vocal player left who is a Villager and the rest of y'all are just faction sniping at each other but no, this is not a request for conversion, shoo or I will Intent Convert with great and intense prejudice like the pyres of Borleias. Edited to add 2: Has anybody told you about the tragedy of Darth Araris the Flamingo? I thought not. Roshar, ignore this - I had to crack the joke, this is not intended to be my indicator.

Alright. Wiz train definitely feels like an attempted CW, and the Fifth-and-Archer teamed theorising definitely seems pretty off in this landscape. Will go through the Day again in a bit. Worth highlighting here: Araris Elan Mat Not necessarily all converted, but I'd put them back in PoE. The fact Fifth and Archer were converted IMO lends partial support to the hypothesis that the Elims went for higher profile conversions than people necessarily suspected. As I point out, Archer was not really in danger past C1, so this probably gives us a certain appreciation/threshold where Hoid is concerned. I'll do a subsequent connection diagram for Archer as well now we know he and Fifth weren't teammates. It's not clear to me the Archer train was necessarily pure either - could be opportunism from Team Khriss in this landscape. Edited to add: @DrakeMarshall What say you about taking the rave to Taldain next, in honour of Aut? :eyes: Maybe you can annoy your rival by carving your initials in the landscape, Mr Odium sir >:P

Stormlight pulsed to the rhythm. Ashertmarn—and wasn't it a capital C Choice to name yourselves after the Heart of the Revel?—was playing the last set, and the crowd was dancing, laughing in the light, as though the Shard of Hatred was no longer loose, as though oblivious to the fact Odium and Ruin had been once again unleashed upon the unsuspecting cosmere. What wicked games we play, Evgeny thought. piano was grooving. "You sure you aren't joining in?" the Avatar asked. Evgeny shook his head. "I—" the words caught in his throat. Wanted some air. Wanted some space to contemplate his choices. Capital C ones included. He picked up the sapphire wine, and knocked it back. Probably spiked. The Rosharans knew how to party, and it was just fine, drowning it all in the wine-dark sea. Wasn't it. His watch chimed and he glanced at it without quite meaning to. piano said, "I imagine you're going to take it?" "No," Evgeny said. The old reptile could go screw himself. His watch chimed. Should never have connected. Should never have connected it to his tablet either. Really, Nalthian technology was a curse at the best of times. He stabbed at it anyway and piano melted back into the shadows. Probably listening from a distance. Autonomy usually was, but Evgeny couldn't really find it in himself to condemn the Shard. Probably should be reporting Autonomy in to Silverlight, but conscience was a cruel neighbour. The icon resolved into one of a snowflake. "Hello, Evgeny," said Frost. "We're done," Evgeny said. "I don't want to hear it." "Then you shouldn't have responded." Evgeny didn't have answer to that. EE DA DE DA DA PEOPLE ON STREETS EE DA DE DA DE DA DE DA The crowd was going wild. "The 17th is failing," Frost said. "I know," Evgeny said. Hard to miss the reports of silence. Whispers that the network had been compromised, that even now, those subverted by Hoid and Khriss moved among them. Difficult to miss, even on Roshar. Even in the rave. TURNED AWAY FROM IT ALL LIKE A BLIND MAN "I know," he repeated. Undertone of so-what-do-you-want-me-to-do-about-it. Frost sighed. "I don't trust you." "That's rich," Evgeny said, "Coming from the reptile who authorised the release of Ruin and Odium from Containment. I trusted you. I believed—" Believed what? He let the words die off. "I believed," he said, yet again. He had believed in everything the 17th did. Had believed they were doing the right thing. What did you do when those sworn to the safeguarding of the Shards decided that the fragments of God were better released to plague men all over again? KEEP COMING UP WITH LOVE, BUT IT'S SO SLASHED AND TORN Frost said, "Hoid and Khriss don't." He knew that. And yet. Frost said, "It is not about trust now. It is about necessity." Hatred and Ruin... Evgeny stared at the icon for a long time. Frost said nothing, letting him think. CAN'T WE GIVE OURSELVES ONE MORE CHANCE? "What do you want me to do?"

Speak for yourself, my 'screw the Village let the Village do what it wants, I don't care' plan is entirely in tatters and the most annoying thing is Drake knew this which is why he made that stupid bet before the game even started -.- Anyway. Gonna finish up the Wiz analysis: QF66 (V!Wiz): C1: Decent activity, not especially hyperactive. Preoccupation with Chameleoning absent from LG93 self. Might indicate that this fixation shows up more naturally for V!Wiz than E!Wiz: zero Cham references from LG93 (will sample more games subsequently.) Wiz was NKed C1 so there's no real basis for further extrapolation here. Worth noting that Wiz declined to take part in too much discussion and just focused on the RPing; little emphasise or care about justifying votes (but was also not @ ) MR62: E!Wiz Frith do I hate looking at this game it brings too many memories of E!trauma. Elims FWIW I appreciate you holding off, and fair warning that if converted, I fully intend to pull and Orlok, Intent Convert out and go back to siding with the Village and my rightful wincon. Anyway. Wiz subbed in for me. Let's...keep wincing but take a look. Wow hot damn did I actually manage to last not even two cycles before cracking? Man it felt like an entire week whoops. C2: I think it's worth noting: starts strong, demonstrates a clear responsiveness to being @ and engaged with (consistent with LG93. Recall that this game happened chronologically prior to LG93.) Continues to try to post 'thick' analysis, as opposed to one-offs or not much thought. C3: Note that despite being sick, Wiz still shows up for his team, adjusting his votes and replying to @s and a light poke/sus from Mat. C4: Again, notably high engagement, with a shift towards openwolfing. Demonstrably high risk appetite and still responsiveness to being @. I think what's overall a consistent thread is that E!Wiz has more motivation to stay engaged than V!him. He cares more about appearing Village (duh), and pays more attention to replying flags and doing surface analysis or as Archer likes to call it, busywork. Frankly, I agreed to do AG9 Cham and I'm cool with doing it but I'm still dealing with being unwell atm and getting yelled at by my gf for how many painkillers I exist on, which, fair, so I'll bring it up subsequently if Wiz becomes an issue later on - I certainly don't expect this to be exculpatory because if the Elims still have conversions (private suspicion of mine but we plan for the worst, always), this could subsequently make Wiz a decent target for them. See, but that's one again IMO extra credit engagement - even knowing how the basic siphon works shouldn't take you reading the entire rules. But fine, I can accept you're more careful about it (fair), but that's still shifting the grounds of the argument from "I don't know what X is" to "You need to know how to use X." It's the distinction between knowing what a sword is and how/when to use it. Fair, that makes sense to me. I mean, I've not written you off as Evil even though I do think it's the most likely outcome. If you can give me a Mat case I can see, I'd be willing to switch over. My point of engaging you, @Matrim's Dice and @Elandera is precisely because I regard argumentation as the path to truth-seeking and it's important for me to vote an Elim and not a Villager, now that I've more or less given up pretending that I can stop caring about the Village and just switch off.

Rather: he's solidly not behaving like his E!self. The apathy is glaringly different given he's been parked on Sel, came alive for a while, voted without pushing too much reasoning or caring, and hasn't actually bothered keeping up with PMs. Hasn't gone back to SL either. In a normal Elim game, that's a problem because an inactive can still send in kills. But if he's not voting/killing, then what's the point? Again, if you believe Ruin has better things to be doing, and if you V!read Drake (which you did, the last time I checked), then where will the kills come from? Being parked on Sel won't give him extra charges and Elims burning actions to feed him Odium Charges is weirdly inefficient. In short, if you want to E!read him, I could see a few worlds in which that happens but I'm shocked neither of you are even telling an explanatory story about the difference. You could argue he's changed his E!behaviour, but: Here's the LG93 comparator, for one, which featured E!Wiz: C1: Here's my prognosis of C1: he's probably contributed more in a single cycle than he has in this entire game. He proactively votes and offers reads, retreating into claims that he's struggling to re-read the game when challenged. Then, he goes and tries to re-read it anyway, and offers reads (take note of the post where he does a couple pages and reads even after citing difficulties re-reading the game.) He's voted way more actively than he has in this game, and shown actual concern about how he's read for how he's voting - look at his responses to challenges on his votes, including when Stick flags his vote on V!Alpha near the end. I'll note one reason I think this CW feels pretty Elim-driven is precisely because of the egregiousness of the playstyle differences. C2: Worth noting significant drop in Wiz's activity as he no longer was suspected or prodded. Still showed up to vote. I'll note he later bluetexts that he had RL busyness, so I think the correct prognosis here is that C2 is a wash as far as reading it counts, and that E!Wiz still stays alive for his team by getting the needful in. C3: Note: activity level is lowered, but so is game activity. Wiz still shows up to vote and to antagonise Alpha more. Doesn't bother at Night. C4: Game over. Village lost. Made the TJ accusation to split Village and then swapped at the last second to hammer. Here's my overall takeaway: Wiz's disengagement issues may be real, but they show that E!him shows up for his team and makes some minimal pretence of engagement. He tries more when challenged or suspected, but otherwise, just doesn't really bother. Postulation of Elim hyperactivity at the start, followed by disengagement seeping in, but makes minimal attempts to do what team needs. LG95: N0: Joins in thread banter. Nothing much said apart from comments on Shards Hoid and Khriss find dangerous. D1: General constant downtick next to LG95. You could argue he was a starting Elim, but there isn't much of an interest in feigning activity or game interest or reads. He's not trying hard and that isn't a V read but does indicate he doesn't care to be V!read so isn't performing. N1: The issue here IMO is that he's not actually stating this defensively. No one in this cycle has @ him for his Archer vote, but he brings it up anyway. (Side-note at the poetry slam mention - there might be a Wiz-Fifth connection.) There's no impulse either to state or to try to hint at reads or just engage with anything, which his E!self did given pressure. D2: Zero post. Zero vote. Zero chulls given, zero engagement with thread. N2: D3: N3: I need to do something RL right now, so I'll drop the V!Wiz comparison after the break. The issue is Wiz has been extremely demotivated in many games recently, so that's a stable of his gameplay. What I'm arguing is that if you look at his recent E!games, he makes a bigger effort for his team, which scales up if he's a power role, and is more sensitive to how players see him, even pre-emptively so. Much of his actions match the tonal disengagement, which isn't the case in LG93. Worth noting also Elan's post that I flagged - voting a gut Evil but post NAI read over a read that you actually find Evil has got to be a Choice. Edited to add: I'd also note here - look at the language difference. E!Wiz doesn't say he can't get into the game/isn't interested. He keeps complaining about having difficulty focusing on re-reads and then does some anyway. He uses vague language to avoid being pinned down whenever he's being questioned, Flat out stating that he's just not interested is pretty much apathy, as is ignoring the ping and the vote for quite a while (I saw him see it in the thread.)

Thanks, just wanted to make sure that TBB was being honest.

I have a theory but I don't know if it's a good one. It's something Roshar's been trying to piece together. (N.B. Nothing significant about Roshar is being missed in the thread. You guys just get the highlights rather than the memes.) Suppose you're Team Khriss. You just lost Fifth. Further, suppose that the Village is on its way to lynching Khriss right now. (I don't know, I'm just speculating for the purposes of trying to make this make sense.) What if one team, for whatever reason, and this is something Archer said that stuck out to me, because it just felt weird: Archer said this about JNV. But I keep coming back to this because this keeps making me think about the fact it's a really odd perspective. IDK, the thought the Elims might lose a player to neutrality (or even the supposition this might drive Shard hesitance on their end) isn't natural to me. (Almost made me wonder if that sort of concern is actually guiding recruitment decisions, which is why it comes so naturally to Archer.) Certainly the Village also can't afford to lose players to neutrality, which is probably why the Frost comms chain started freaking out when they learned JNV was going to Intent Convert, but you know, players gonna player. It just felt very real about the sort of train of thought that might be going on. But alright. Let's back up a bit. What does this have to do with Team Khriss? Suppose Team Khriss is now at a serious numerical disadvantage. What does Team Hoid stand to gain? I submit, in World Two: 1. @DeTess - the Flatline Seven problem is still real. If you are Village, killing you and me kneecaps a significant amount of Village discussion driving and resistance. Since World Two is a V!Archer world (albeit one I've found unlikely), the kill-chain is Archer, one of us, then the other. By which point, Khriss's team is still at a disadvantage, but Team Hoid can also act more openly because functionally, no one in the Flatline Seven will deny them, so the votes are there. 2. It's possible Team Hoid is concerned that if they weaken Team Khriss too much, the members might Intent Convert out and side against them, perceiving them as Village or part of the problem. P.S. I think Mercy is overrated if you believe V!Drake. If you don't think H!Team!Drake, then in a nutshell, all KP is in Village hands. Even if you don't think Ruin is Village, Ruin has two worlds to destroy. Elims can certainly juryrig something by having the whole team shotgun Odium Charges but this comes at the cost of giving Autonomy a significant advantage and giving them a significant footprint for tracking. All Mercy does is mark the player for Night execution unless they stack Honour Charges, and even if they do, no significant tempo is lost if you believe the conversions are largely in - in a regular game, an exe survival is bad because the Elims get a free NK. Not so here. I think we should probably prioritise efforts elsewhere. It's interesting you are using the same line as Archer, which involves substantially strawmanning the case being made against Archer. It's hard to defend the line this isn't a CC vote when your argument for WIz is functionally also: "they're a good conversion option" (hence in your profile), and absentee. I would add the Wiz vote is especially egregious here because you GMed Chameleon, and Mat GMed E!Wiz in LG93. The fact that both of you are seemingly oblivious to something you should be very familiar with as the GMs in those scenarios feels like a warning sign. I'm actually shocked the meta difference isn't screaming out at you. Certainly, but it's fair to also ask how then you derive your focus on Wiz specifically, since the charge would be that you found a convenient CW since the profile category is so big. If your entire case against Wiz boils down to: profile, and also inactive, the same charge essentially can be levelled against Turtle and Araris. And yet, it's odd that neither of them in your eyes, are worthy of such attention. The contrastive question is worth asking because it seems revelatory of player preferences, and potentially, alignment driving choice. Why isn't it? You are a researcher, are you not? Functionally, all you need to know is you win with 17S, can siphon when you are on Silverlight, and that you can dump Shards back into containment. I challenge you to show me any other element that a researcher really needs to keep in mind in this game. Everything else is game strategy and really context dependent. I challenge you to show me any player who is actually taking the current, entire ruleset as compulsory reading, rather than just looking up points of interest, and clarifying as they go along. Szeth himself just learned today that Shardic wincons (apart from Autonomy's) are not actually game-ending. Why do you need to 'really grasp the full potential of a researcher' by understanding the rest of the rules? This is an odd defense of argument here, and I'd argue it's a red herring. The case wasn't that Archer didn't understand the 'full potential of a researcher' - it's that he demonstrated a basic lack of knowledge of what the core researcher abilities are. No one is accusing Archer of not realising researchers can set up a double-Nalthian sling to feed Autonomy - the charge is much more simple, that he doesn't know what researchers can do. Finally, as you yourself point out, this is a complicated game, and more than any researcher, Hoid, Bavadin, and Khriss are the most likely to desperately need to juggle every aspect of the ruleset and to be overwhelmed. This makes it more, rather than less likely for a solo Elim to be overloaded, especially when E!Archer has had a history of rule misunderstandings. None of these really seem like a convincing defense of the claim he can't be an OG Elim. Edited to add: Oh, sorry. Forgot to address one last point. So, interesting question for you. Why isn't that featuring in your calculus? You cite this, but haven't particularly shown this influencing your decision to create a CW. Hmm, but the thing is no one here is not looking beyond initial suspicions. DeTess was the only one beating the Archer wagon post D1. Mat toyed with the idea but never seriously. Archer has never been on the table as an actual, serious option since C1, which means that your description of people repeatedly coming after Archer is actually a serious misrepresentation of the state of the discussion. If anything, going back to Archer is picking up a strand everyone had ignored since D1 - as this marks a significant mode shift from the last three exes, more than anything, this is choosing to take a different look at the exe options and breaking out of the mould of the past few cycles. It's odd that you're claiming credit for being 'novel' given I pushed Wiz D2 and you are, functionally, repeating the exe more than Archer voters are doing. More significantly, it's also kind of weird to frame this as keeping options open, because on the face of it, that's clearly true, but you're also opening one option. Every player responding thus far has chosen to deepen the Wiz train rather than widening options, or discussing more, so I don't feel that particular team has much of a claim to actually expanding exe discussion. But just as obviously, when it looks like a blatant CW, players are going to question your motives in doing so.

So this is a CC vote? Does this affect your view of Turtle, then? Don't recall that wrt Turtle, but Turtle has been known to do that in the past, or legit inactive out. Walin AFAIR is the one who admitted to not sending in an action. Why doesn't Archer fit OG Elim? Furthermore, if you truly believe that the conversion criteria was purely players who haven't actually really been looked at, I feel you're committed to the claim that it's purely and utterly an inexplicable mystery that Alpha died a Villager, because there's no reasonable world by your own lights in which a player who was more or less widely soft-read Village and low contribution manages not to get converted N1. Second, if you concede, or are willing to concede that the past three days were about voting for low profile, low activity players who aren't complete inactives, isn't this logic also indicative that it's a major risk for an Elim team to decide to convert a player in the very profile the Village has been freely and consistently lynching for the past three cycles? That's the first-order problem. The second-order problem is that if you want to postulate that the Elims did that anyway, then they needed some way to actually not get that new convert lynched or killed. This more or less entails a conversion choice that affords them more thread control in light of the fact that they have vulnerable teammates who need protecting. If it isn't helping anyone, isn't one option simply to lynch Archer and solve the question for once and for all? It's clear that at least part of the ostensible Village doesn't V!read Archer. We have previously - and it is absolutely a respectable Village tactic to simply say, "We need this flip, because if not, we'll be bickering about this until kingdom come." I'm curious why you are rejecting even the pragmatic argument here. I'm so glad you asked! Here's a connections chart I did. Do enjoy I'd argue Araris stands out as a connection, but interestingly, it does include: yourself, Archer, and DeTess via voting (we're bracketing the question of when Fifth was converted), I'm ruling out Drake because E!Drake would need to be on Team Hoid - Team Khriss doesn't two-way self-cannibalise, and I'm ruling out JNV as I think JNV is a pretty solid Village read and also N0 Ruin. This includes, by way of affinity: myself, TJ, Elan, Araris, and STINK. Araris has a double connection due to Fifth's vote, which could be cast as distancing if you postulate an earlier connection. Elan is notable for the lack of connection: similar deal with TJ and STINK. Given my Braize shooter theory, I too have an explicit connection.

No, genuinely, go ahead! If you are truly Village, and believe this is the correct move, then you shouldn't have any inhibitions, correct? After all, we are still in a very grim position. This much is a fact, based off the mathematics. Certainly, pushing me will be a tad harder than pushing a player like Wiz. Which, admittedly, might be more work than an Elim team necessarily wants in the quest for vote dominance. But of course, this is of no concern to a Villager. Unless... Oh, but surely not... You believe the Elims are interested in converting players who don't send in actions? I do have Turtle in nulls after discovering I miscredited TBB's roleblock to Turtle. But this seems an interesting stretch, given how inactive Turtle can be, and once again, I'm forced to question if the focus on low profile and barely active voters is opportunistic or meant to develop a CW. Sart had a single post. Barely any attention. Xino was low profile but if you're considering Turtle active enough, Xino barely scrapes in. Same point for Turtle as Alpha, and even softread Village on D1. So I'd ask again: unless you are choosing a very specific and selective definition of 'low profile' and 'active enough' (which I'd argue is true enough given you've managed to add DeTess and myself into the category, a feat for which I congratulate you), do you think that the failures of the first three cycles are sufficient to motivate a shift in tactics? Or do you believe that there is some justification for doubling down, and if so, what is it?

I'm asking if you believe that those players do not fit in that category. Yup! You could try CWing us, that's for sure. Question out of curiosity. What's your definition of attention, given the double Turtle train for a decent part of D2?

Drake picked Odium N1, which kind of blocks anything not N0, or I suppose technically if it came in N1 first. Drake also hit Fifth, and it's odd for a player to kill their own teammate for Village cred when that doesn't go as far in this game due to the two Elim team structure. You're welcome to flip me, but it's the wrong answer, so you'd have to have another answer after that. I hope you have one

Like, alright, maybe let's flip the question around. Who converts Fifth? And who does a Fifth-converter also convert?

I have two questions for you. 1. We've tacitly proceeded under this profile assumption for the past three lynches, considering: Sart (technically a kill), Alpha, Xino. Do you believe they count as anything but 'low profile but active enough', given the number of posts Wiz made in this game prior to being summoned back to life by, apparently, thread ranting on activity? And do you believe that the past failures of the three Days are correctly addressed by doubling down or hard-committing, and if so, why? 2. What is the complete set of players inhabiting this profile, in your eyes? Welp I guess that was more than two. Edited to add: I don't extremely feel Mat is being FUD in this game, but at the time of posting, I didn't want to get targeted or killed potentially without getting that note out, especially if Mat didn't continue to be Village in the following Days. FUD = Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt - E!Mat is very good at eroding reads certainty, IMO. Fae was softlocked Village after her Thief claim following Aman's in LG94. Mat's statement about it being a typical Aman play eroded global Village reads certainty and paved the way for a future Fae lynch. That's classic E!Mat FUD in my view. It was less grounds for sus and more 'if you see him doing this going forwards, you should probably watch out.' I can get that, but it isn't the only argument. The thing is, isn't a N0 convert functionally just a single one? Realistically, we're expecting N1, N2 converts as well, maybe N3 if something screwy happened. The downside with no kill control and no thread control is that your team sort of has to hard-defend and doesn't have much room to deflect Village pushes. It's not impossible - cf. QF64 - but I'd argue there's a good reason why low thread control teams tend to be dicey. I think what I'm struggling with on the level of that argument is, why would the Elims deliberately, if lacking Odium and Ruin, also choose all low activity/radar converts? Both teams? All three slots?

I said they didn't fit the H/K/B profile. Now we're talking about converts. With Szeth specifically, it's a statement that it doesn't make sense to convert a player under fire because you then have to expend a lot of thread energy defending your investment. You'll forgive me for being sceptical that you're arguing in good faith as you don't particularly seem interested in engaging with arguments but are preferring to strawman them. I've also made it clear since my first post of the Day that I continue to V!read Szeth, so you'll forgive me for wondering if you're actually engaging at all, in the first place. Szeth's inclusion is insofar as we're looking at what isn't in the Flatline Seven. Given I've just said your voting patterns are pretty opportunistic, this seems a tendentious read. I'm open to changing my vote until EoD. I just don't see reason to for the moment.

I'm not, actually. I just find you more suspicious than all of them. Elan's on my watchlist, I'm no longer willing to V!read Araris, and I've explicated suspicion of Mat in this thread directly before your post, so this is a weird take. I've also made it clear at no point do I V!read Drake, so he's in my null box. Perhaps, but this is also a very good excuse to make pretty opportunistic votes on side-trains without having to deal with much resistance or discussions. I think the way I'd put it, as I did on Roshar, is as follows: 1. I don't buy that there are that many Elims hiding in the Flatline 7. That set formally excludes TBB, Elan, TJ, Mat, Szeth, and Araris, so you are already strawmanning my argument. 2. I absolutely refuse to buy that in a landscape with <Archer, Araris, DeTess, Fifth, TJ, me, Mat, TBB, Elan, Drake>, that the Elims absolutely refused to convert anyone at all within this set. I absolutely do not buy that and it beggars belief. Buying this in fact commits us to the claim that they're largely in the Flatline Seven, and I don't think that's remotely reasonable. You're suspicious because you keep insisting on picking on the players who are the most quiet of this set, and therefore the least likely to put up a serious fight. That feels like fairly opportunistic voting to me, in combination with your preference for formalistic reasoning when Evil. Let me point to the set of players you have voted on or seriously pushed using this line of reasoning: <Walin, Elan, Turtle, Szeth, TBB>, and that's just off the top of my head. You don't get to claim this is because no one is immune to conversion. This is strictly speaking true but let's be real - Fae is so inactive it's a real gamble to convert her. For that reason, she's not been on the top of my list. You're casing them as prospective conversion candidates without caring about the context, and I find that pretty sus. It reads more like busywork and finding soft targets to me. I don't feel your stance really emerges from a Village mindset. Drake is provably Odium. Unlikely he'd execute a teammate just for Village cred (any other likely killer can counterclaim), so if he's Evil, he had to be converted pre-N1 or be Autonomy, I guess. Enough for me to sort of earmark him but drop him for now. Fifth was converted. Define reductive. I don't think it's reductive because he has decent thread activity but isn't saying much as a result of them or in terms of reads. I absolutely think that it beggars belief that no Elim team has at all a single thread controller. Perhaps this reflects my inherent bias towards thread-strong Elim teams, but in a landscape where the teams lack kills (on paper, anyway?) That's a really weird game landscape to postulate. Hmm, interesting. Edited to add: I guess I'd put it this way: TBB has decent activity but he's primarily defensive. If anything, he's not going to be able to stop flak when it's shooting at the team or set thread agenda. And that's fine, we all have our favoured play niches as a player. It certainly doesn't prevent him from being Evil, and while I give him V!credit for the D2 RB of VOCALS, I'm not going to overdo it either. But I do think that the fact you fit the profile of a thread controller (just look at the Fifth conversion) and your choice of targets over the course of this game (I leave blank when you might have been converted as I don't have a solid theory on this) doesn't seem quite right to me.

I suppose what this really means one way or another is that what we're requesting is: Do Scadrial last? Braize counts anyway, so JNV just needs to get one more world done, then Scadrial. @JNV - Need some anti-roleblock Charges?

I agree with that, the strongest part is what I found a bit surprising.

Tfw you want to make a comment but cannot.

It felt like you were hopping on already-established trains, rather than opening or defending your own choices for trains: your rationale for Alpha was more or less: I did feel the Xino observation was good in that it felt natural: It did, however, also come from a player infamous for self-preservation regardless of alignment. I'll agree you did open/follow-up on Xino though, so possibly I'm being too wary here: In retrospect, feel ? about the Elan +1 - but also still feel more suspicion in the Araris-Archer vicinity. Question for you, why's Szeth your strongest V read? Apologies if you've answered this at some point, I'm partway through backreading. Edited to add: Can confirm this.

Felt it's a bigger tendency for V!him (there's an LG91 exception I think, but he died fairly early), and E!him generally prefers to let the Village drivers call the shots for the lynch discussion and then stack on. Edited to add: I suppose if you're bored and would like a comparison that isn't LG94 - compare QF62 with MR62. Won't tell you which is which. I think you didn't want to know his alignment already, and I've sort of given it away where LG91 is concerned.