Kasimir

Smh are you the only one who failed to grab a TARDIS

Fifth Around and Find Out :eyes: @|TJ| Worth noting as well that both of Autonomy's Avatars were announced as being created during N1 and N2 specifically. In my view, this likely implies Autonomy used a Day Action to create them, meaning that Autonomy sure as hell could be siphoning at Night - nothing in the rules prevents this, given Bavadin is also a Researcher.

Bro. Autonomy has three actions unlike us plebs due to Vessel Action. They can have the best of both worlds by making an Avatar and siphoning Investiture at the same time / in the same cycle. Who says I didn't? I was on Roshar N1, after all. You may want to look at the world's action. Autonomy also can't just give Investiture to anyone—they have to be on the same world as Autonomy's Avatars and I have been the only player I know of to have encountered them. And I was on Scadrial N2, allowing me to dump two Autonomy Charges at once if I needed to. (Note: Autonomy did not give me any.) There's also a RP/method acting reason which is the rave/world trip goal I've set for myself but really I've tried to pick worlds both based on the puns and the utility. High FAFO energy V!Fifth credences rising

Honestly, I kill the one who is more dangerous to me, sorry to say. As Autonomy, I can't afford to play to Village sympathies. I'd probably backstab the Elims and gun them down just on sheer principle, but I'd make an evaluation of who is more dangerous and then go for it. Leaving the other factions alive kind of matters because as long as they are a pressing threat, the Village won't go after me. If I kill too many of them, I become Public Enemy #1.You have Like...in this hypothetical world (real enough in that I flat out told VOCALS I wasn't interested in Intent Conversion) : I'm an SK without a kill. I know you see Autonomy as a neutral but my view is that tactically, I cannot have a strong Village. The other factions do win with outnumbering, this is true, but they cannot win together. Fundamentally, I'd have to play everyone against each other and try to stack up as many Autonomy charges as possible on other players (and pray they don't get rid of them!) - which is a really rough balancing win con. That's my honest answer. If you want, you can check out LG6, Padan Fain doc. I recognise it's very long ago, so maybe not everything is transferrable, but it more or less carries my thoughts about how to win third party. I actively consider how to play the Village and the Elims against each other and evaluate which Village targets to go for in that doc, despite lacking a NK of my own. It's dramatic but once you take up that Shard, you have to accept you are not a Villager and cannot afford to be emotional about sympathies. So yes, Autonomy does have to play somewhat anti-Village. You have to plan for it. Elims can also use Braize, and Odium charges, if you lose/burn too many of your original. I can agree with you they tactically shouldn't, at least early on, but it doesn't change the fact that Braize was very likely used last Night, unless someone admits to using an Honor charge to protect Drake, which more or less implies that at least one player thought Braize was a good shot. Prolonging the game is sheer arrogance, unfortunately. After LG5, I never like forgoing a guaranteed or certain win to take the harder route, especially if you're playing glorified SK. I'll concede this point. Good luck Fair. At least the thought patterns seem pretty consistent with V!TJ, so that's my current read for now. The rest is a you problem, not a me problem One more question. Why does A!me leave Silverlight instead of trying to get a second Shard that could help me, like Odium, or Survival? Because I clearly advertised being on Roshar N1, and on Scadrial N2. I could certainly be lying about that, but given I declared I was going there prior to EoD, it's certainly a risk, if I'd not showed up, and then lied about being there and hoped no one like TBB actually showed up. Given poor Village coordination, and how many Shards are free up to now, I must surely have anticipated that my odds of collecting Shard #2 aren't actually awful.

Autonomy can't win with the Village. You're better off playing the long game, and you have to backstab and kill the Village eventually. It's not compatible with aggressive solving because doing so guarantees you will be killed, and that's not a good place to be in, because then you have to explain exactly how you survived. That's exactly the disadvantage of playing a pro-Village game. You don't survive by being loudly pro-Village - I'm sorry to say but that's just stupid play and the number of times I've died in early game clearly point this out. Autonomy doesn't win by dying. I have zero incentive to warn about the possibility of SD Avatar overwhelming if I'm Autonomy, or to clarify how Avatar actions work. The whole point of that is that it's the one SD wincon that takes the other factions by surprise. My correct play is to let the Village and Elims eat each other, and then overwhelm via the SD wincon. Autonomy's SD wincon is probably the most lethal weapon in their arsenal. Why would I give it up? I'd argue it's not even neutral - it's functionally an SK without a kill. Yeah, because the exact same thing is going down: I commit to chilling and then see kayana crap from the Village like whatever the f that D1 was and then start getting pulled in because I can't help commenting on the kayana. So basically you're arguing I'm Neutral-Evil because I Actually Did Not Give A Damn for a game I actively said I Didn't Want To Give A Damn About, and then ended up giving a damn. Ok. And you can't at all reasonably see why I think this is either V!TJ in paranoia mode again or E!TJ actively trying to off me and to ape that Village indicator. Ok. Not my problem. I have a hypothesis which I believe I'm quite likely right about I'm not going to share with the class because either the people involved will or won't. If I share it, I possibly allow certain lies I'd rather not get shared. Edited to add: Let me sharpen the point: So basically you're arguing I'm Neutral-Evil because I Actually Did Not Give A Damn for a game I actively said right at the point of signing up, before the game, that I Didn't Want To Give A Damn About, and then ended up giving a damn. Ok. At the risk of antagonising STINK again, I'm going to once again affirm that I don't really care about "ok what am I supposed to do about that." I really don't care if the Village shoots it's damn face off and if you think that's exeable. I don't give a damn if you think you want to exe on principle because you shouldn't ever say before a game that you want to stop giving craps about the Village because you put in 150% and your team throws the game. What I do want to point out is that this line of thinking doesn't have connections to my alignment, and every single time you bring it up, it's always because you get caught in a narrative where you want me to be Evil. Well, tough luck. Edited to add 2: Like sure, I can echo STINK, right: "Well, what am I supposed to do with that?" We've had this exact same argument tactic as Falcon, as Ostrich, just off the top of my head, where you created a long elaborate narrative meant to explain what the hell Evil me was supposed to gain from lying in a Tineye message about being scanned. Like ok, it's a narrative. What exactly am I supposed to do about that? Sure it's a maybe mildly coherent narrative. But a narrative isn't an argument, and I can't really do much more if you're wedded to it. Edited to add 3: Sorry - context for anyone who didn't play that game: it was about Evil me lying in a Tineye message about having been scanned Evil. Edited to add 4: To Actual Autonomy:

Uh, yeah, it's addressed to Autonomy because piano confirmed in doc they were following me from world to world, and I thought it was funny. You still seem to think that E!me, when given the chance to coast through on low activity in a chill game with players like Szeth willing to let me have my chill game for real would decide to softVillage for crems and giggles? No one was even seriously putting Autonomy on the radar and you can see from the last two cycles this Village doesn't have its crem together. Pretty easy to just chill and do nothing. IDK bro, you've played E me before (MR62) and despite E me being unwilling to get involved and hating the situation, you seem to want to think I'd willingly run into that when given an easy out by the Village. But why would an Elim go to Braize when this drastically tanks their team's chances of getting a Shard? Braize is useless to Hoid, and Khriss probably favours the conversion or the siphon. Why not? Edited to add: Ah, cheers. Edited to add 2: @|TJ| - Like it or not, I think the issue you have to explain if you think it isn't Braize, knowing that Honor isn't released, is: If it's Odium or Ruin hit, it'd crunch through Vessel Shield. It requires an Honor protect, but Honor protects aren't self-protects. So do we have an Honor claimant? If it's Vessel Shield (temp or perm) then it has to be a Braize hit. It could be an Odium charge but Odium charge attacks aren't written up unless they're like a normal kill, in which case this entails that for some reason, Drake has zero charges, not even his starting charge, and I think Alpha scanned him N0, yeah? So like...how do you square that?

Oy vey LG94 flashbacks for real. Puzzle solving time then. Well, let's spell out some inferences then. 1. Avatar could've been hit by Odium charge (doesn't carry charges, therefore can be killed by one), or by Odium or by Ruin. 2. Drake is a more interesting hit. Not really sure how he survived. Feels like it can't be a Vessel Shield (perm/temp) deal - if he got hit by Ruin or Odium, then it'd crunch right through that. But it's hard thinking of protections that aren't Vessel Shield. Guess there's a chance it was a Braize attack? Asked about Odium because I kind of feel it'd be weird if the Odium holder is doing nothing. My read is the Avatar was probably hit by Odium.

Interesting. Presuming: Braize Odium charges? V!Fifth credences growing. Ruin? Odium @Ashbringer Are we told if a Shard in containment is splintered?

Sorry for double-post if double. Wanted to make sure this was there. Will now be good and try to actually keep to minimal solving -.- And full out rave partying. Just In Case: Fifth -> V lean. Defeasible, but inclined to read D2 post unvoting Turtle and offering self for flip as Village. Another factor factors into Fifth V read. If I'm dead, probably two other players are aware of this and it's up to them to decide if they want to share with the class or not. I'm not full Kasing this game so whatever. Szeth -> V lean. Hard to describe but patterns of reasoning + increased engagement reads sincere and typical of V!Szeth. Disagree with Archer and Araris here - they're applying a standard pattern without context. N2 disagreement corroborated by argument in QF66 doc - I don't think there's agenda there. Turtle -> very weak V lean. Have a theory. Have described it to maybe one to two players. Again up to them if they want to share with the class. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong /shrug. Has to do with Turtle's D2 Day action. If it wasn't Turtle, you might know who you are, and there's some benefit in claiming it in extremis. IDK. Haven't thought too hard on this. It's Complicated. JNV -> V lean. Clearly in Village disengagement meta + QF66 demonstrates they aren't particularly interested about exploiting this to benefit from it when Evil (even though it would be lethal.) Intuitive V on Walin but cannot really support it. No need for Walin to declare that forgot action. Shouldn't feel V but does for that sort of player. Kind of feels dgaf in a Steel sort of way. Lack of artifice/attention to thread narrative -> less alert. Whoever sussed Walin - maybe squint at them. Mat -> very weak E lean. Feel there's zero paranoia/significant shift from Mat (?) and IDK how that makes me feel. Also makes me feel a disgruntled proto-V on TJ which IDK about. WiM where???? Autonomy maybe??? Aman -> very weak V lean. Like Smosh Pit. Best PM bro. Ash -> very weak E lean. Angry noises. Much rude. Feels like he wants to shut down the rave entirely smhhhhh Xino -> null+, gut wants to V read but IDK I swear I'm V reading everyone right now. V!Xino pretty much did the same thing in LG90 in terms of couching a vote explicitly as self-pres with under four hours to go to rollover. I don't really feel Xino is that in his E meta but he hasn't said enough, so I just want him to spell out his thoughts more for a better read. TJ -> V-ish, but weak. TJ knows that one of the meta things I look at in his case for Village is paranoia directed at me and we've spent more V games paranoid of each other than not. Weak because once TJ knows this, meta-screwing is possible. Kind of tired of banging head into Archer wall and <Mat, DeTess, Archer> feels like a hot mess to me right now. In that I actually don't wanna touch it smh. *Angry Kas noises* Oy vey LG94 flashbacks are real. Think worth poking at Araris, Wiz (especially since the sudden pop-in to mention Mat = Autonomy theory which might have some water), Fadran, STINK, probably anyone else who keeps reading the thread or has signs of life but says little. Expecting disproportionate Elim doc activity compared to actual activity. Probably complicated by factions and Autonomy being somewhere but that's more work than I want to put in, go figure./ Note: Want to gut V Araris but don't feel alright with that so in nulls. Style of argument re: Szeth feels like how he tried to pass E!Alpha off as Village, but I think Szeth is V, so I think it's more worrisome that it's argument style that seems characteristic of E!Araris. Unsure and haven't bothered to go over Araris's recent playhistory because on vacation. Don't really know if am alright with V!TBB - TBB is typically more helpful by C3, so should be held to it especially since clearly lurking in thread and responding to everything else. Endowment, Ambition - stand by what I said, prefer not to be rezzed unless you have nothing better to do and even then, I'll probably just do my rave thing unless guilted into helping out the Village, which is always possible. You've been warned.

This... This feels... ....I want to... BURN THE SICK AND TWISTED IN HEAVEN'S PURIFYING FIRE!

V!TJ confirmed.

I mean, you're disagreeing with it fundamentally as a method for approaching reads with a certain amount of game data. I'll note you haven't had a single Elim game since AG8 which is quite a while back, so arguably that isn't applicable to you either. I think the larger point remains which is that this is the same disagreement we've had in the dead doc: you don't think it should be done, I think it's fine to do it. I don't see the point of rehashing the same arguments we've had about it in the QF66 dead doc, which is in any case a matter of public record. If we don't even disagree about whether the method can be used in this case, then certainly we're not going to agree about whether that vote had an acceptable basis or not. Edited to add: Should be 'if we don't even agree about...'

That's my point though. If you disagree this is an acceptable game method or basis for a read, then of course this is going to be a vacuous vote to you. Edited to add: My view is that it's applicable - your playhistory isn't extensive, but I'd like to think I'm right about my current read of you. If I'm wrong though, then I'm wrong. It was pretty useful as well to ID V!Bookwyrm in LG91 - I just regret I wasn't on the ball enough to stop that ML from going through. I don't expect it to be correct 100% of the time but that's never a bar we apply to players anyway.

I invite you to read through and engage with a detailed study (linked above) I did in LG94 comparing Alpha's playstyle in the preceding MR63 and in his first proper SE LG, LG93. This isolates posts in which Alpha demonstrates a general interest in engaging with the game. I then invite you to read his posts in QF66 again, and my comments in the dead doc. I distinctly recalled you disagreed because you felt Alpha had played too few games for that to be considered a tell, so if you're approaching from that mindset, then you're fundamentally going to be unsatisfied with any approach that draws on Alpha's playhistory to extrapolate his current alignment. In fact, I'd argue New Player Weirdness is a distinctly poor way of categorising Alpha's playstyle, because he isn't weird in the same way as, for instance, Fae or Fadran are. I invite you, as well, to read the Elim doc (C1 of LG94), in which Alpha is explicitly advised to cite playstyle change difficulties in response to observations that he was fundamentally more reactive and less interested in solving. Finally, I invite you to look again at my comments in the most recent cycle, in which I explicitly comment that I'm not comfortable with the level of reactivity/interest from Alpha but would also like to hear him out, hence tagging him, and I was certainly prepared to shift my vote if Alpha said anything else. I'm used to certain players doing weird things. This is the entire reason I am arguing contra Archer and Araris that they're being lazy and they're not noticing or sufficiently accounting for the fact you have certain play tendencies as a Villager. This results in them not approaching their reads of you correctly; I am more reassured that you want to be proactive and that you are in fact holding to the lines of reasoning that you are. The problem has never been New Player Weirdness - it's been Alpha's tendency to become more reactive, less interested in proactively engaging with other players and the game when he's Evil. I didn't fully buy being overwhelmed as a reason for that because there's the base layer you can always engage with which is: thread, reads, suspicions, even answering questions another player has asked (I explicitly linked a post in early QF66 where Alpha proactively responds to a distro speculative question Archer has asked - I'm not looking for full-fledged suspicions and reads, but little things like that. The volunteering of his scan D1 was good, but since then, there's been no proactiveness and a lot of apparent thread lurking.) Failing which, I'm fine being exed or lynched and I explicitly do not want Endowment or Ambition (if Village) to bring me back because that's too much work I didn't sign up for. (P.S. Endowment/Ambition grabbers - consider rezzing Sart and Alpha since we know they're Village.) I'm still ok with V leaning Szeth for now. I have a couple more reads I feel ok about but will probably sit on them - if I'm dead, they don't matter, and if I'm not dead, I'd rather be able to drop them without tempting a conversion.

Scadrial was a different world from Roshar. The highstorm raves were one thing, though discovering that an avatar of Autonomy was present on the craggy world was mildly disturbing. Still, Evgeny reasoned, he'd come to Roshar for the highstorm raves, and to get away from the evil of Shards before the 17th unleashed something they'd long sworn to keep. The sort of power that corrupted, no matter what you told yourself. No matter your justifications, your promises to make a better world. The Shards made you think you were doing that. Fragments of a god long dead, a god long better dead, a god that had better not exist, because you couldn't be God, and look upon the world in all its brokenness and suffering, and deem it perfect as it was. And because you couldn't fix the ills of the world, of humankind, and still keep your soul in the bargain. So Evgeny left. Frost would do as he willed, and the 17th would follow. Tapping and draining Shards, seeking the power for themselves, as though they were any better than Bavadin. He didn't want any of it. And then there was Autonomy, on Roshar. He regarded the Avatar warily. One way or another, you forgot, at your peril, that the avatars were all of Autonomy. Autonomy, of course, had decided it was safer to come to Roshar with a catspaw. Easily disregarded, easily denied. Easily cut off, should the worst happen. "You're pretty short, for a Shard," Evgeny said. The blue burned his throat, with a faint taste of nuts and a memory thereafter, of honey. VOCALS said, "Autonomy has not come in the flesh." "I would hardly expect anything different," Evgeny said. "Our goals are not compatible." "No," VOCALS agreed. "They are not." "Find someone else to coax to your side," Evgeny said, dismissively. "I know better than to have truck with the evil of Shards." "Well," VOCALS said. "I came for a rave..." On Scadrian, the music was louder; the steady bassline, the screaming of the electric guitars. The press of the crowd on the smosh pit. Easy to lose yourself, Evgeny figured. If only Autonomy hadn't sent yet another dratted avatar here.

I'd argue the opposite: Elims know what the target/back-up target is and are ok with it. Villagers have fog-of-war, so can be more easily made to doubt or to re-evaluate because they ideally want to get things right. Edited to add: I'll note the C3 issue should still be looked at for TBB.

Ngl if it turns out you are Autonomy: Please stop stalking me >:(

I s2g my read keeps yo-yoing with this back and forth. I'm not going to let myself think about anything Archer-related or anything not-rave related tonight to detox. I'll come back tomorrow if only because it's seriously annoying me that I can't get any lock on this.

I was going "I guess maybe that's V-ish? IDK calling for a no-exe is kind of weird and just plain wrong." But I guess life never is that easy. Yeah okay, but I struggle to see that, sort of. From a Village perspective, this is Day #2 of no exe. I don't think it's irrational to decide based off several factors: If you aren't flipped, people will keep arguing about you (admittedly contentious; you might become more readable, which implies potentially a further corollary, e.g. limited time to commit) - if you feel you are going to keep sucking Village bandwidth, it's better to cut that short so discussion can progress It's better to give the Village certainty of the flip and let them form reads around the exe, with one known result. Otherwise yes, no numerical harm, but it's like playing flipless. (Side-question: have we considered the fact there are resurrection mechanics if Endowment gets out of the bottle?) I kind of want to recheck chronology here, e.g. whether Fifth saw this happening with Turtle and decided to go there. On my part, I'll say I do associate this sort of play a bit more with V!Fifth than E- feel E!Fifth is more willing to fight to the end. I guess he could be tired, but still. @|TJ| @DeTess @DrakeMarshall, @Elandera - just flagging a few people off the top of my head with E!Fifth playhistory, since I can't @ Devo. One more question for you, Archer. How do you compare this to Turtle's refusal to self-pres, and what's your current read of both? y e p wrote a rant about it, dumped into GM PM because Not My Problem THis Game, Village will do whatever it wants, I will do whatever I want. tldr; people seem to imagine the game will be solved entirely by Shards. I look forward to them deciding what to actually do with the Shards with an anaemic thread. Hmmmm. I will say I dislike the Szeth push as I feel Archer should know better, having had an alright read on Szeth in QF66 (which I just ran), or at least a provisional one, though I think Archer might have thought Szeth was Evil there too until he flipped V. That push does make me feel ???. In general, my sense is that he's engaging more broadly on the whole than in LG94, which I find skews a bit closer to QF66, but that's a broad impression that I need a re-read to pin down more precisely. I guess to precisify, Archer's hovering right in that sweet spot between V!Archer engagement and E!Archer busywork for me and I'm not sure which it is. I pushed him a bit harder than I needed to on the Shardworlds notion (N1) because V!Archer sometimes gets an idea I find kayana and then sticks to it in a way I find E!Archer is less willing to. I'm not firm on how good a tell this is because I probably have a <50% success rate in IDing E!Archer, but at the same time, it does make me want to lean V on him. But my disclaimer is that when I say my read on Archer cycles, it pretty much changes everytime I relook him so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ That's what I was going back and forth on at EoD - I do want to know why Xino had an Alpha preference to Turtle, but that being said, LG90 does show he will self-pres in advance. But I think Mat's point is that there's something off about being so hypersensitive about being voted in a thread where you weren't mentioned as a candidate, Elan was apparently a pike vote, and ties don't kill.

Trying :| I need to file a restraining order against Autonomy at this juncture. I think I'm being stalked :| Edited to add: I guess I would just say this. I do believe that if you're voting to exe someone who might be a Villager, i.e. you aren't dead sure, then you at least owe it to them to have given it your best shot. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Edited to add 2: Things I still would like resolved: @xinoehp512's three hour self-pres vote - why, and why Alpha of all the trains, given that your count demonstrated Turtle was also up for the exe? @Archer's sudden decision to suggest a no exe, without bringing this up on N0 or D1. @Elandera - you were on Xino prior to Xino's self-pres vote. What motivated this? @Fifth Scholar - I'm interested in why you feel you're alright with principle-lynching a player for saying that the game setting is different, without remotely suggesting that people play it like a faction game. @DeTess - Can I re-check what your Archer case is again? Probably more things but I need sleep and I don't want to take up that play niche, so to hell with it.

I woke up to that -.- Should've gone back to Xino, huh. Or should've probably spent a lot more time going over the options.

No no no I am not going there, not with three minutes to make a call. Ok, Archer is not gonna be workable like this @DeTess. I think we don't need DeTess if going for Xino - Elan is on Xino, Mat is ok with swapping. So the question is, who do I think is more Evil? ....Sorry Mat, probably staying put. IDK about wagon size, but I also dunno anymore >>

@Matrim's Dice Presume your preferences are between Alpha and Fifth yeah? Think you mentioned? Edited to add: And Xino?

In theory I should backread his recent games but wehhhh I'm on vacation smdh Edited to add: Low key have a crack theory where they're just Elims from different factions feuding but lmao let's be real who the heck ever gets this lucky in having all Elims as trains.

Uggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Low-key not sure I want to move off Alpha. Rewent through QF66 out of a vague sense of duty and noticed proactive engagement from Alpha from the get-go. C1, volunteered rule clarifications previously, this is response to Archer. Side-comment here that Szeth has a bit in this cycle where he asks who players would most want to kill. He's Village. Archer seizes on it and I believe this is when the spec doc forms a rock-solid E!Szeth tunnel, thank you Stick and Mat. IDK broskis. This just feels like some level of game engagement which didn't have to be prompted. Unfortunately, most of the PM interactions are gone as I purge fairly frequently, so I guess that's a wash. At the same time, LG90, which Elan IMed, did have a Xino self-pres at 0140hrs which was about 3hrs, 20 minutes prior to rollover, and Xino was actually endangered there (though there was, I think, a three way tie.) I don't really disagree with this point tbh. Will this have numbers, or just cause another tie? My problem with Archer is I just can't make my mind up about him and have cycled through every possible read at this point. But I don't feel that causing another tie is worth anything here. Xino and Alpha are also both ??? for me.