Pathfinder

So Kaladin failed to protect his father, so he will remove Skar and Drehy, who successfully in a war zone protected the son, in order to protect the son? I am sorry, I just do not buy it. As I said to config, I feel it is artificially trying to shove in a connection where none exist. That in order for Kaladin and Jasnah to get together, they have to spend time together. Since they would not spend time together to that extent normally, we have to find a way to get to them. Enter Gavinor. Since Kaladin never thought of Gavinor before, lets make him super depressed and seek validation regarding the father through the son. Then he and Jasnah can elope. It feels forced, and I do not think it would work. But that is my own reading of it.

Yeah I hear that a lot and I always disagree. There is a whole lot more to Jasnah than what Shallan thinks of her. Also Jasnah will in my opinion be in the background via ruling Alethkar till we get to the back five books where she will come to the forefront. If you are curious why I say that, there is a thread for that! lol. I wrote a huge one, I linked below. If you are so inclined, please give it a read.

I guess I don't see the need. Why does Kaladin have to be the one to protect Gavinor? He has no familial connection. He did not bond with the child over time (like Skar and Drehy). He did not think of Gavinor when depressed over Kholinar. Skar and Drehy did a perfectly good job while Kaladin was off handling other issues. They handled things very well in a war zone. Why would Kaladin or anyone else think it has to be him to step up and guard Gavinor when Skar and Drehy can just as easily do so and have more of a reason to? Why wouldn't Jasnah give Skar and Drehy a commendation for going above and beyond in preserving the royal line. if anyone should be watching Gavinor, it should be his heroes Skar and Drehy. So I feel it artificially injects emotions in Kaladin towards Gavinor just to put him in a position to force two characters together. For myself you couldn't get more artificial. Who says Gavinor is going to be a major character in the first five? He is heir apparent but Jasnah is Queen. She is the one calling the shots for the Alethi back at Urithiru. Her remaining in the background makes sense. Gavinor remaining in the background makes sense. Skar and Drehy remaining in the background makes sense. I could see Gavinor coming more to fore in the back five, but the front five? The kid is like three. Personally I couldn't see Kaladin being written as playing nursemaid to a 3 year old, versus going out to Roshar fighting the voidbringers. Storms in the early reading for rhythym of war we see I disagree. Using the child to force two characters together is not to me equitable with Adolin and Shallan, as well as Warbreaker, Elantris, and Alloy of Law having arranged marriages. I do not feel kaladin in particular is necessary to watch over Gavinor. I haven't seen anything that makes me feel he would feel compelled to over anyone else. I haven't seen anything that makes me feel he would be ordered to over anyone else. And I haven't seen anything that makes me feel like he is connected to Gavinor over anyone else. Yep. Bridgemen who were radiants/squires. That includes Skar and Drehy. That still doesn't mean it has to be Kaladin over anyone else. As to Jasnah through confidence doing so or not doing so, I disagree and feel my huge post about the character that is Jasnah would explain why she would not. She would think in terms of what would work best (to me), and i see no reason why Skar and Drehy would not be at the top of the list before anyone else. That is pure conjecture, so not much point in me responding. (not meant to be dismissive, but realistically how can I reply to that other than I think Sanderson didn't give him an out?) How was being at Kholinar, worried about losing his men, and being unable to protect the new guards he considered his own means he was feeling great? He was terrified everything was going to go pear shaped. His whole reason for accompanying Elhokar was to make sure Elhokar doesn't screw up. Kaladin was tenser than a violin wire. Regardless that still does not explain to me why Kaladin of all people would zero in especially on Gavinor of all people. Kaladin feeling crummy about Dalinar in danger? Sure! Feeling crummy over Adolin, Elhokar, Shallan, any of the bridge 4 members, the guards he got to know? Sure! But a kid he met for a few minutes while Elhokar saved him, and then was promptly grabbed away I do not see. There was no attachment made. No development. No connection that I can see that screams Kaladin has to be the one when Skar and Drehy have all that already in spades. So once again, why not them?

Won't kill you lol, but personally I do not see the reason. She already had her fake out death that drove the narrative forward for Shallan. I could see it happening in the back five maybe, but I think it is too soon to kill her off in the front five. Although Brandon confirmed being a flashback character does not guarantee safety, there is a ton of mystery regarding Jasnah that I do not think can be told purely via flashback.

Thank you. I don't want you to think I am jumping on your thoughts or anything. Just explaining why I personally do not think it likely The final appearance of Gavinor is kind of why I see Drehy and Skar as more likely tied to Gavinor than Kaladin. They pursued the kid after he was grabbed by the Queens Guard. They hid the kid from the fused and protected the child when they lost their powers with Kaladin leaving. Them protecting Gavinor potentially had them reach their second oath (with it ending on them protecting those who cannot protect themselves, the second oath of the windrunenrs, and it shows Gavinor's face). So the potential oath progression of Skar and Drehy, not Kaladin looks to me that it was attached to Gavinor. I personally wouldn't really call the scene with Kaladin showing up at the end, him saving Gavinor. To me that credit goes to Skar and Drehy. They got the kid away from Kholinar and kept him safe all that time. Kaladin just showed up to get them out of enemy territory. In the quotes I provided, Kaladin was extremely worried about Skar and Drehy. He didn't realize Gavinor was saved till the child was revealed by the bridgemen. So again, I do not feel Kaladin's goal was Gavinor. For Skar and Drehy totally in my opinion. Do I see Kaladin trying to protect Gavinor if the child gets into danger? Sure! I am not saying Kaladin is unfeeling towards the child. I just do not see a greater sense or need to protect that child over anyone else. In fact it looks like the opposite to me. That others took more precedent to him. If Sanderson decides to go that route, I trust he will do a great job with it, but at this point I just do not see it happening. Personally I do not believe his actions make it believable that Kaladin would focus on protecting and being with Gavinor. Jasnah suggested the windrunners scout. Shallan remarks how Jasnah seems to have a good head for military tactics that one would not expect of a highlady. I do not think Jasnah would consider the windrunners power set being better suited to guarding a single child, versus scouting the enemy positions, doing guerrilla warfare, rabid response, or rapid retreat. Anyway it would be Dalinar's call on how the radiants should be deployed. Jasnah handles the governance of the Alethi in exile. A lightweaver, or edgedancer, or truthwatcher I think would be far better equipped to guard their charge. A lightweaver could have an illusory double of the target so the child remains safe. Also a lightweaver that learns soulcasting could potentially soulcast away any weapon about to stab into the child. An edgedancer could retreat, and slide the child out of harms way, and heal the child if injured. Same for the truthwatcher. Again I respect your opinion but personally I do not see it. Using the child to shove two people together, when the child has far greater connection ( in my opinion) to Skar and Drehy does not fit to me. edit: actually pulling up the scene and re-reading it shows Kaladin definitely did not know Gavinor was alive and there with Skar and Drehy. So he flew all that way for Skar and Drehy, not Gavinor Oathbringer page 1212 "Kal" Skar said as Kaladin slapped him on the back "There's something we didn't mention by spanreed" Kaladin frowned as Drehy returned to the fire and picked up one of the figures there. A child? In rags. Yes, a frightened little boy, maybe three or four years old, lips chapped, eyes haunted. Elhokar's son. "We protect those" Drehy said "Who cannot protect themselves"

? And neither are you? Except we were in Kaladin's head, and Kaladin did not think that.

I respect your opinion, but it still doesn't fit for me. Like I said to Karger, Kaladin didn't agonize over Gavinor the entire time since Elhokar's death, so I don't understand why he would suddenly now. He didn't agonize over the kid when the kid's life was in danger, why would he now that the kid is safe with its family? Elhokar was the one obsessed with saving his wife and child. And he nearly succeeded, till Moash rammed a spear in his head. It was a bridgeman that then grabbed the kid. Oathbringer page 819 A member of the Queen's Guard scooped up the young prince and carried him away. Azure's men limped back before the growing parshman armies. (Kaladin did not try to grab the child, and makes no thought of him till the later quote below) Oathbringer page 863 "Little Gav had been taken, and Dalinar was planning to abdicate. (only Adolin seems to think of Gavinor, and that is in relation to him having to become king) Oathbringer page 893 ""But when he instead let himself think, he started rememebering what had happened in Kholinar. Men he loved, killing each other. Awful, terrifying perspective. He could see too many sides. Parshmen angry at being enslaved for years, attempting to overthrow a corrupt government. Alethi protecting their homes from invading monsters. Elhokar trying to save his son. The palace guards trying to keep their oaths" (only mention of the son, is in relation to seeing Elhokr's perspective. not direct connection to Gavinor) Oathbringer page 925 "He had slept fitfully, slumber interrupted by thoughts of his men dying, of Elhokar and Moash, of worries for Drehy and Skar.." (no mention of Gavinor) So it was the Queen's Guard that thought to grab Gavinor. it was Drehy and Skar that thought to go back for Gavinor and protect him. Gavinor was not on Kaladin's mind except when he mused on seeing through everyone's perspectives as to why they fought each other. But no lamenting on failing the child. No recriminations for not grabbing Gavinor from the Queen's Guard. No personal admonishments for not protecting Gavinor. So personally I do not see why Kaladin would pay special attention and protection to Gavinor now that the child is safe. I could believe Jasnah, I could believe Skar and Drehy, but not Kaladin.

He feels he failed to protect Elhokar true, but the entire time at Kholinar, through Shadesmar, to Thaylenah, he didn't muse to himself even once "I have failed Gavinor. If only I had!". All that time it was failing to stop everyone from killing each other, and pushing himself to save Dalinar. Ultimately it was two bridgemen that saved Gavinor. So that is why I am not sure why Kaladin would take an especial interest in Gavinor when this whole time he did not.

I am curious, why would Kaladin take a personal interest in Gavinor? He has no connection to the child. Oroden I could see, but personally not so much Gavinor. Maybe if Elhokar with his dying breath called to Kaladin to protect his child, but he didn't. Jasnah I could see taking an interest as Gavinor is her brother's son. I could see her training him so he can be a better king than his father was. Gavinor is heir apparent, so it would make sense to me that responsibility would fall to the current ruler. I feel Kaladin has more on his plate commanding the windrunners in the fight against the voidbringers than guarding a child personally.

Agree to disagree.

I am sorry but I still just do not see how it would benefit the kingdom in any way that is not already present 1. Bringing Vorinism to support the Athiest Queen Jasnah. A. Kaladin is not Vorin, he is agnostic B. Kaladin is a radiant. If Vorinism has a problem with Jasnah for being radiant, so too would they have a problem with Kaladin 2. Kaladin is the man of the people and will bring the peasantry under Jasnah A. there was never an issue with the peasantry to begin with B. Kaladin is focused on bridge 4, and the soldiers under his command. He has shown no interest in helping the peasantry. That is Lift's schtick. He protects those in danger, but that does not equate social. 3. Kaladin as a radiant will bring legitimacy to Jasnah's rule. A. Jasnah is already a radiant, and royalty in line to the throne. She does not legitimacy from another radiant as she already is one, and there already exists precedent for her to take the crown. 4. Dalinar and Jasnah will want to strengthen ties with a radiant, like Shallan with Adolin A. Jasnah came up with the idea to help Shallan. She was hesitant to even float the idea pass, and was worried it would upset Shallan. She was ready to drop the whole thing. Navani is the one that took to the idea with a gusto and pushed everything forward. B. Dalinar already gave Kaladin lands under the Kholin crown. Kaladin is already tied to the Kholins. C. The structure Elhokar put into place already puts Kaladin under Dalinar and under Jasnah. Dalinar is High King of Urithiru and commands the radiants in relation to the war. The Alethi King (or in this case Queen) commands the Alethi. Kaladin obeys and is under Dalinar as a Radiant. Kaladin is under Jasnah in regards to the lands he now owns. 5. Jasnah cannot rule alone as there needs to be an heir. A. Gavinor already exists. He is heir apparent to the throne. There need not be a king to help produce an heir as one already exists. So I still do not see any benefit to the kingdom, to Jasnah, to Kaladin, or anyone else from the two of them marrying. I just can't see what purpose it would serve that hasn't already been handled.

Seems to be the story of my life lol

It is not a hard and fast rule, but it is one that though exists originally for meta reasons, does in fact exist in world. Basically to clarify: 1. A trend is noticed in the book. Author comments it was intentional for meta reasons, but the mechanics in the world itself are unaffected. 2. A trend is noticed in the book. Author comments it was intentional for meta reasons, but the mechanics in the world are affected. Per the WoB, I believe it is number 2. It started for writing reasons, but it is an actual mechanic in the world. See this is why I lean towards the WoB than the names. With the primary secondary surge, we can predict what surge the order will most likely use first. Going by names I feel is a roll of the dice. You can attempt to validate your interpretations with the names for the orders we have already seen their surges manifest, but not with the ones that have not yet. The names do not adequately describe the surge users if you have to jump through hoops to get them all to work. Yet dustbringers are widely known for them burning things, being able to even set fire to rock. If the names are meant to speak to the surges used, then I do not believe it reliably fits. So when they use the surge of division, the sky gets broken? I know I am using hyperbole, but in this case I kind of have to to illustrate the point. You are using information you have, to self confirm your viewpoint, and then says it applies across the board, when it does not. But if the abilities are sourced from the spren, and the only fundamental difference between bondsmith spren and other order spren (not counting cognitive shadow stormfather) is the "size" or "strength", then the only effect should be how powerful the surges are. Just like a lerasium mistborn is "stronger" than a natural born mistborn, so too with the spren. Yet you are saying because of the magnitude of the spren, it would make sense that the surges would work different only for bondsmiths, and no other radiant. I disagree with that logic. But Dalinar has not used adhesion to shape the wind, and Kaladin has not used adhesion to speak other languages. He did stop, because he did not run every single bridge run at the front. When he was training with the log to get bridge 4 out, that was stormlight giving him greater endurance and healing. His first conscious use of the surge was when he stuck the rocks to the walls and climbed up the side of the chasm. It was after that, that he ran into Szeth and decided to emulate him. Dalinar's armor glowed when a chasmfiend in Way of Kings brought its claw down to kill Elhokar. I theorize that was tension keeping the armor from breaking. Dalinar then used adhesion to stick the chair to the wall, while commenting on how he saw Kaladin doing it. Then there was touching for language (adhesion), and restoring the temple (tension). Language was by accident, temple was intentional. I will continue the explanation in response to your other replies I am saying that there are three things 1. slight differences in the surge from order to order 2. differences arising from the combination of surges 3. resonances that produce an entirely new third power At the base Kaladin and Dalinar adhesion works the same. They both can stick things to other things. Further proficiency, use, and oath level leads Kaladin to be able to "shape" the wind, while Dalinar understands any language of the person he touches. Kaladin as a windrunner can use adhesion to potentially deal with wind resistance while using gravitation, or even manipulate pressure later on to get better turns and maneuverability from gravitation (this portion is conjecture) when compared to a skybreaker. Kaladin as a windrunner has the resonance of strength of squires which is an entirely unique third power. That is how I see things, and personally I think it fits. Also based on that WoB, it makes sense because Jasnah would more than likely practice transformation first. Shallan would more than likely practice illumination first. We see a regressed Shallan try transformation first because of the circumstances in her life, but remove all information on the individuals, and we can likely guess Shallan probably used illumination first. In fact is it not mentioned when she has brief moments of remembering her childhood, she recalls light, and making illusions? So to clarify this further 1. Orders tend to learn one surge first, and then the second surge second 2. Because they tend to learn one surge first, they gain greater practice and ability with said surge 3. Some radiants, due to outside circumstances, occasionally learn surges out of order 4. Some radiants, learning surges out of order due to outside circumstances does not negate the reality that by order, 9 times out of 10, the radiant is going to learn a certain surge first over the other. Ym still was using regrowth first, and we do not know what level of oath he was, as well as we already acknowledged that use of both surges are possible, just that the preference of learning would lend towards one first over the other. But three is not the sample size. The sample size is: Dalinar (1 against, though I explained why I think this still applies) Kaladin (1 against, though I explained why I think this still applies) Shallan (1 for) Ym (1 for) Stump (1 for) Lift (1 for) Szeth (1 for) Malata (1 for) Lopen (1 for) Jasnah (1 for) So from a sample size of 10, 2 were against versus the 8 for. That is an 80 percent accuracy rating backed up by a WoB. We already established (in my opinion) that the radiants have access to both surges. Just they tend to learn one over the other first. Lift learned abrasion first, which keeps in line with this entire thing stated in the WoB. Then she learned progression. Division is not literally gated by the skybreakers. Szeth could have used it if he so chose right then and there. All Nale said was it was dangerous, so he would oversee Szeth's training in it personally. This does nothing to dispute what I said oathbringer page 1198 "I will visit you again to oversee your training in your second art, the Surge of Dvision. You may access that now, but take care. It is dangerous. I disagree. it is a meta thing that is a mechanic in world that is for the most part reliable. There are exceptions, but that does not change the trend.

Good point. three houses also opens up being able to use weapons that do not match the class. So you could get a holy knight for edgedancers giving them the large movement, healing magic, and sword or lance. Ah I gotcha. I was going off of purely mechanics, but appearance and story wise makes sense too. Good point. Thanks!

So have a brief moment to post, and then when I can later today I will reply to everyone. This is the WoB stating that Radiants do tend to learn one surge first, and then a second. Overlord Jebus So I've noticed a pattern in the way that the Radiants learn their surges. They seem to learn their anti-clockwise surge before their clockwise surge? Brandon Sanderson They do. Overlord Jebus Excellent, everyone thought I was a crazy person! Brandon Sanderson They do tend to-- Now, I'm gonna give you some behind the sausage stuff on that. That is partially for writing expediency reasons. Overlord Jebus How do you mean? Brandon Sanderson I designed that partially because I didn't want to overwhelm people with too many magic systems at once so I came up with a little bit of a pattern so that I could have a little bit of an in-world reason why we were slowing that down. It's not a hard fast rule, it's something that I've kept to in order to not overwhelm readers so it's more of form following function than the other way around. Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) Now to respond fully Personally I still think they both can do teleportation, but interesting thoughts! No problem! I agree. I agree No problem! I agree Yeah I think the spren help shoulder that load. So I covered this in the WoB I posted above. Honestly I do not know, but I also do not think we can go purely by the names to judge. What about truthwatchers as a name speaks of healing or even illumination? Dustbringers do not bring dust, they burn everything, and even then they prefer being called Releasers. How do skybreakers break the sky? Potentially in their use of division? But then why are dustbringers bringers of dust while skybreakers break the sky when they both have division? Shouldn't it be skybreakers and land breakers respectively? In my prior post I explained how I think that worked out that way. I agree and disagree. I think some people are just going to lend better to one surge over another, but I think order on whole are going to lean more on a surge than the other, because they learn it first, and theoretically would gave better proficiency with the first one before gaining such proficiency with the second. Again, I do not personally feel we can use the names alone to judge fully what they can and cannot do. I think there are subtle differences in the way surges manifest between orders due to the interactions between the primary and secondary surges that particular order gets. So gravitation between windrunners and skybreakers are the same, but skybreakers tend to learn gravitation first and get a better handle on it with a currently unknown combination with division, while windrunners can alter the air pressure as they fly making their gravitation use seem different. For all we know skybreakers use division like a rocket somehow propelling them in straight lines far faster than windrunners, and the resultant explosive sound from doing so is what earned them the name. So I agree that the interaction between the surges are what is going to make individual orders "manifest" their powers differently. Not necessarily even the resonance, but just using the two powers in concert. But as you have said elsewhere, the magic system should still obey a set of rules that should apply across all manifestations. So it should apply to all orders, not just one. We have seen Dalinar use adhesion in an additional way we have not see Kaladin use yet. Once Kaladin learned to use gravitation, he has largely ignored adhesion till the Fused claimed city. So I do not think we are at a point where we can conclude there is not further things Kaladin can do with adhesion that Dalinar could not, just like there may be further things Dalinar can do with Tension that a Stoneward could not. So although it may not be super exclusive, the WoB I just posted shows the primary surge learned first, and then the secondary surge is a very real thing. It is, as Brandon said, not a hard and fast rule, but it definitely is there, and definitely occurs often enough to be a phenomena. I agree. Interesting way of putting it. I agree. Thank you for putting it perfectly! I agree. Both Elsecallers and Lightweavers soulcast the same way. They peer into the cognitive. They take a stone, and they convince it to change. Yet Shallan struggles convincing a stick, while Jasnah commands. When Shallan and Jasnah speak about the process of soulcasting while running through Thaylenah, Jasnah explains all the intricacies she learned from training with soulcasting. I would reference on how Shallan has to explain lightweaving to Renarin, but as we already said he is corrupted, so he doesn't count. However every single truthwatcher we have met knows regrowth first. Ym showed no lightweaving use. Stump showed no lightweaving use. Both were doing regrowth. Lift however did not start using regrowth. She was using abrasion when we met her, and just then she started to learn to use growth and then regrowth. Malata we see use division out of the box as it were, while Szeth is told division is dangerous and he needs more time before he trains with it. Personally I think there is plenty of information and evidence, including the WoB to support there being a primary surge learned first, lending towards greater proficiency, and then the second surge. There are some exceptions, but for the most part it seems to follow that pattern. So although not every elsecaller will be better at soulcasting than a lightweaver, to me it is certainly likely, and would be the way to bet. For the reasons I said above, I disagree. For the reasons above, I disagree. For the reasons above, I disagree. @Calderis @Honorless @The traveller @Lunu’anaki Just tagging to show I updated and added a whole lot to my post

Not to nitpick, but that is not the whole quote: "Shallan breathed out again, and the king was transfigured into a tall, stately Alethi woman with features reminiscent of Jasnah's. Kaladin nodded appreciatively. Shallan was right; there was something about the way Elhokar held himself that bespoke nobility. This was an excellent way to deflect people who might wonder who he was" I took that to mean Kaladin appreciated Shallan's thinking. That by changing Elhokar into a woman, Elhokar could still do his regal kingly bearing (thereby not forcing him to act differently) but still be different enough that people would not try to figure out who Elhokar really is. So I take that more appreciation towards Shallan's skills and capabilities, rather than the figure Elhokar mimics. But that is just my own take.

Brandon is hedging, though some believe this hints that the reason the body got thrown was from shardplate Questioner It's very subtle, but at the end of Oathbringer, when Jasnah goes to find Shallan on the battlefield, she goes to grab Shallan, Shallan's over here as Radiant. She has Shards *inaudible*? Brandon Sanderson That's a Read and Find Out. I'm being very coy on Shardplate, even though you have seen characters with it in the books before. Because I want to wait until I can do some reveals in viewpoint character. I will tell you this: You have indeed seen people with Shardplate multiple times in the books. Or at least, the soon aftermath of someone. FanX 2018 (Sept. 6, 2018) So the "soon after" portion I do not believe is Dalinar, as we the "matrix" develop on him. So we did not just catch "the after effect" of it. We more seemed to catch the "pre-" effect of it. Then there is Shallan and Jasnah. Shallan had multiple illusions and people disagree on whether or not the plate was real when the "Radiant" persona was touched by Jasnah. Jasnah is the only one that seems like "something" was fading away which seems to coincide with this WoB. Add to this we know via another WoB that Brandon believes Jasnah is as far, or further in oaths than Shallan, would imply Jasnah should have her plate already. That is the reasoning at least.

Right, which is why I said it is a theory of mine. In that situation I do not have much to back it up, otherwise I would be posting WoB for that. But Shallan, as well as Kaza, and I believe three other instances, we get testimony of in world characters saying some soulcasters for instance can only soulcast bronze, and that is all. Other soulcasters can soulcast grain only. Other soulcasters can soulcast only smoke. Finally there are rare soulcasters that can soulcast multiple items such as fire, crystal, and smoke. Even rarer still are soulcasters that could soulcast any of the ten essences. So what I mean is, there are soulcasters that if you put an emerald in it, nothing will happen because that particular soulcaster only soulcasts bronze, so will need a topaz. Another soulcaster if you put a ruby in it, will not function because it only soulcasts grain, so an emerald is required. Other soulcasters can do both grain, and bronze, but put a sapphire in there and nothing will happen because it cannot soulcast air. I was theorizing on why that is.

Part of another theory I have, goes hand in hand with primary/secondary surges. For instance we know there are fabrial soulcasters that are either limited to soulcasting one specific thing (such as bronze), or capable of multiple transformations. I theorize that surge fabrials are made when they take a radiant spren of a certain oath level, after their radiant dies without breaking the oaths, and it voluntarily bonds the fabrial. So the further along in oaths the spren was when bonded to the fabrial, the more powerful the fabrial. The type of spren also effects the power of the fabrial. So taking a cryptic to make a soulcaster fabrial would be more limited than taking an ink spren to make a soulcaster fabrial. It certainly seems that a radiant spren can be used to power either surge they provide depending on the fabria (ink spren with the soulcaster fabrial with kaza, and the ink spren with the oathgate seen by Shallan) Theoretically yes, but fabrials are a computer programmed to draw a circle over and over again. The fabrial was already programmed to go to a certain location and only those programmable locations. Calculations would not (to me) need to be made brand new every single time. All the calculations are already programmed into it. Personally I disagree, but as I acknowledged, it is open to interpretation. So to prevent further confusion (just in case), to clarify there are two instances people think of when regarding this WoB. There is: 1. Jasnah shoves a soldier. As he flies back, he transforms into crystal. He hits another soldier, than soldier flies back as if with the full momentum of the initial shove from Jasnah while he turns into crystal as well. To which he hits a third and does the same. and or 2. Adolin is in the city looking for everyone. A body comes flying out of an alley. He assumes it is a flying fused and gets ready to fight, only for the body to smash into a wall, and he sees Jasnah standing, with geometric shapes fading away. In number 1, people theorize that Jasnah used transportation to transfer the full inertia from her initial push, through the subsequent targets. That led people to theorize that when the body went flying by Adolin (number 2), it was Jasnah doing that trick again, potentially creating inertia, like a force push effect. Others theorize number 2 was Jasnah manifesting her plate and just bodily throwing the person, and then dismissing the plate which Adolin sees the after effect. The WoB seems to say (to me) that you can use the surge of transportation on someone (like with lashings), but it will not manifest as the person is positing (the force push). Which is why I think he meant that you could touch someone and teleport them elsewhere. Personally I disagree. I read that WoB as saying, it does not function like a "force push". Added to that is the WoBs that @RShara and @Calderis reference in the past that lend them to believe it is her manifesting her plate. I will need a moment to pull those WoB up, as well as the fabrial being a computer that draws a circle well.

True, true. I think that is a large part of (like you said), why the Elsecallers seemed to be the primary liaisons. They have multiple ways of accessing/manipulating the realms. So the biggest wrench in it, is as you said Kaladin, but also Dalinar. So we know via WoB (which may take me some time to find due to the wording), but Brandon's intention of doing things that way (primary surge, then secondary surge), is to introduce the magic gradually instead of overwhelming the reader with new powers. Now whether or not Kaladin and Dalinar break this. When Kaladin was first running bridges, he unknowingly used a reverse lashing to attract the arrows towards his hands, away from his body so he would not be killed from the arrows. That is gravitation. However, when we first see him consciously use his surge and learn, he uses adhesion to stick the stones to the wall to climb. It is later after seeing Szeth that he learns how to manipulate gravitation, and it takes him some time to get used to it. Theoretically Dalinar used tension unconsciously when the the chasmfiend attacked, and he held his glowing armor together. Next we see Dalinar stick a chair to the wall, and be able to speak different languages through spiritual adhesion. But I feel the first time we really see Dalinar use his abilities with purpose is when he puts the temple back together, which theoretically is tension, which would be his primary surge. I think Dalinar learned and used adhesion seemingly first, because he had Kaladin to emulate. Same thing with Shallan. She had Jasnah to watch, which is why she tried transformation first even though the surge was over her head. Kaladin leaned towards gravitation because he saw Szeth using it a lot. But the use capability, I believe still keeps with primary surges. I think a skybreaker can use basic and reverse lashings more skillfully than a windrunner. We just think windrunners can because they are coupling it with adhesion (atmospheric pressure) to get greater reactions.

Right, basically that was the point of this thread. Is I am asserting that the surge of transportation can allow a radiant to instantaneously teleport between two locations. Potentially the way they do so if via the spiritual realm. The transfer between physical to cognitive, and cognitive to physical is just something along the process that they can do. Basically what I am saying is you can build and program a robot to swim. If the system glitches, it could potentially just float. We are shown a person can float. To me that does not mean they can only float, especially if the programmed robot was meant to emulate a person. I am saying a person can choose to swim, or choose to float. That we have just seen humans float so far, does not preclude them from being able to swim.

So, my personal reasoning is that we know: 1. elsecallers create mini perpendicularities (WoB below) 2. a perpendicularity is using investiture to punch a hole through all three realms 3. the spiritual is all places and all times at once So, my understanding of it, is there wouldn't be a "destruction" of self to instantaneously transport between locations. The elsecaller is using the surge of transportation to punch a hole through all three realms to access the spiritual realm. Since the spiritual realm is all places and all times at once, you don't even have to "fold" space. Technically where you enter the spiritual realm is also where you exit the spiritual realm, since its all the same place and time, just where you come out (cognitive or physical) is different. I think what we have seen so far, is only partial use of transportation. Like what happened with Sja-anat and the oathgates. Instead of fully transporting kaladin and co, they were shunted to the cognitive realm. Thank you!

Interesting thoughts on the manifestation of transportation!

Thanks. All done. Posted it in the Cosmere forum because I mention two other magic systems.

Depending on which video game, I would see Dalinar as either an oni chieftain with the crit ability that the lower his health is, the higher his crit chance is. Or could potentially be a general (lol literally and class wise) with pavise to reduce incoming damage. I think windrunners would be better represented by pegasus knights. They can fly, get lances, and staves (the staff used would reduce enemy movement to zero). There you got gravitation and adhesion. Lightweaving could be accomplished like the mechanist class with replicate. Give them limited uses of the abilities, and maybe have the illusions get 1 hp. Soulcasting can function like dragon veins, just it is a per use power. Have her function like dragon veins and teleport squares, just like I mentioned above, have them be a per use. Lift would be a troubador. Large movement via horse (abrasion), and staves (regrowth). Only problem would be the weapon being magic. Dustbringer could be a malig knight. Again large movement via horse (abrasion), and tome magic attack would be division. Skybreakers would be wyvern lord (if I remember correctly) with ax and tomes. Again flying, and blasting would cover gravitation and division. Maybe the mechanist again, but have to change one of the weapons to staves for the healing Lol Navani I don't know. Neither do i know with him lol