Pathfinder

I have to check the WoB that support this, but I believe the White Sand Spoilers

The Mythica said up until that point, Sja-anat could only corrupt lesser spren, not high spren. Sja-anat comments how she has never corrupted something like the oathgate spren before which do appear to be elsecaller and willshaper spren. But then again, she did corrupt Glys seemingly before her corrupting the oathgate spren. or maybe she had corrupted the oathgate spren awhile back, before she corrupted Glys, and we only saw the corrupted oathgate spren when Shallan was about to use it. My theory is that Sja-anat during the desolations could (assuming the lesser spren = shardplate theory is correct), corrupt the lesser spren that make up shardplate. After you summon your armor from the lesser spren hanging out in the area, having your armor betray you, or not form at all I could see as pretty terrifying for radiants

So I am posting this WoB, not to say it means I am right, or wrong, or anyone is right or wrong. Only that i think it is an interesting WoB, is relevant to our discussion about radiant orders and their surge uses, and thought it would be good to post it. Questioner Is Jasnah being able to Soulcast at a distance the resonance of her two Surges or is that just a Radiant thing that's not with the fabrials. Brandon Sanderson Jasnah's Order is better at that than others. It is not impossible that you could imagine a Lightweaver being able to do it. Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

The comment is still verified to be factually true. the implication I get is there is something Sja-anat can do, that is especially fearsome to Radiants. For instance, salt hurts dogs paws in winter because it lowers the freezing point of water, so it can be painful for dogs to walk on wet sidewalks that have recently be salted. That hurts dogs. A snail that moves across salt will writhe and die. Salt is terrifying to snails because it dries them out. Salt is harmful to dogs because it lowers the freezing temperature of water. Same source, two different processes, with two different levels of severity. I am saying the radiants are the snails in this case, and we just do not know why yet. kaladin protected Dalinar and frequently he was no where near Dalinar, because Dalinar had to be off by himself to accomplish the goal of sealing away the unmade. the corrupted spren was spying on the humans. The spying would be ineffective if the fused was right next to it. The spy was discovered. It fled and was able to meet up with its escort in time before the radiant and mundane humans caught it. Regardless, yet again Hessi mentioned Sja-anat. If it was a trap, then a trap that any spren, human, or otherwise could spring does still not sound to me like it is so unique that Sja-anat in particular would be feared, and be so feared by the radiants. I never said it was for an ego boost. I said you are presenting an argument you yourself do not prescribe to, so you are misrepresenting it. So I came here to represent it fully. I already did multiple times. Before Honor's death, the heralds could draw directly on Honor's investiture via the honorblades to fuel their surges. During this time, Odium fielded forces that challenged that level of power, which is why the Heralds have died in the past. Odium, feeling the heralds at the time were a non-issue, and that he already won at the battle of Thaylenah, has not summoned these greater forces yet. Now that the heralds are starting to be a threat again, as well as Dalinar is something seemingly new, Odium will begin bringing more of his more powerful forces into the fight. This will raise the stakes. Which is why I believe brandon responded to a reader's concern about the "power creep" being not an issue. That is my perspective and have summed it up as such. To each their own. Questioner If I had any questions at all, I would say: ramp? Stormlight Archive, as it's going forward, like super power creep issues. The characters get so powerful so quickly, and it's gonna be a 10 (hopefully) book series. Brandon Sanderson Remember, it's two sets of five. And we will be... how about this. We're just gonna RAFO you now, because I'm being recorded. I'm not gonna give you any hints about the future. Just... I've got it in hand. I was able to write three books about Rand al'Thor at the height of his power, so I'm pretty convinced I'll be okay. DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019)

I am not treating what she said as gospel. I am taking the information provided, and trying to reason out certain statements. As you said, she is pretty accurate in what she wrote. Lets go over what we know she got right: 1. The unmade are specific types of spren, endowed with vast powers. They are not simply spirits of the void, or nine shadows who moved in the night 2. The Unmade are still among them and some common effects in the world can be attributed to them 3. Yelig-nar had the power of all the surges. He could change any voidbringer into an extremely dangerous enemy, and swallowing a gemstone starts this process 4. Yelig-nar consumes souls. As we see, Yelig-nar does in fact consume the individual who uses his power 5. A city is corrupted by Sja-anat when spren start acting strangely. Sja-anat is an individual while Moeloch and Ashertmarn is a "force" 6. Nergaoul causes battle rage and ferocity. This affects both sides of the conflict. It is a less self aware spren 7. Nergaoul is still on Roshar, is still active, and the Alethi Thrill is Nergaoul 8. Moelach grants visions of the future 9. Moelach grants visions of the future most commonly at the transition point between realms. Usually death 10. Moelach is the cause of the death rattles 11. Ashertmarn causes lust for indulgence 12. Re-sephir creates monsters that are dark imitations of what she saw or consumed. 13. There are nine Unmade So 13 things Hessi has stated that we know for sure are true. The only other things are comments that have not been confirmed yet. So I do not see why I cannot take what she says as reasonable information to base my thoughts on. The spren was not leading them into a trap. The corrupted spren was on a spy mission. It was spotted by Coeb. Coeb called it in. A single radiant and mundane humans went to hunt it down. The corrupted spren had an escort. As in a personal guard. That guard was a voidbringer that can make thunderclasts. Nothing regarding that escort is concerning Sja-anat. It wasn't the corrupted spren that created the thunderclast. The corrupted spren did not stick around for the fight. The thunderclast escort ran interference so the spy could get away. Nothing in that scene inspires terror in me towards the corrupted spren. A giant rock monster that can suddenly pop out of the ground? Totally. But that is not what Hessi referred to. Hessi referred to Sja-anat. The reason I called attention to this, is it is like when you posted in another thread about a herald being able to fight the lord ruler. Since you did not believe it yourself, when someone challenges you on it, you do not have the information or resources to defend it, so the argument is mis-represented. You can totally disagree with the argument, but it is counter intuitive for me for someone against an argument to argue for it. Which is why I would have expected a topic more like "I was shown this and this and this for that heralds draw investiture directly from honor. I disagree with this. Does anyone feel the same? Anyone agree with this? Can you tell me why?" You are stating reasons why you feel Sja-anat is just a spy. I am stating reasons why I think there is more to her, and the rest of Odium's forces. If you feel it is a digression, then on Sja-anat we can agree to disagree and drop that subject.

Personally I think the answer is simple. Soulcasters, shardblades, and shardplate is what retarded the technological advancement of fabrials. Everyone was trying to find a way to recreate them. To figure out how the radiants of old made them. The problem is they were missing one very very big component. Radiant spren. There is no way they would be able to develop shardblades and plate like the radiants left, because they were working with an "unfinished" product. So everything and anything they tried would be unable to replicate it. Same thing with soulcasters. Everyone wants to make a soulcaster, but there was something only done on Aimia that allowed it to happen. They are treating the soulcasters, shardblades and shardplate as something they are not. It was only when they started to give up and pursue other paths, that spanreeds, alerting fabrials, and so on became a thing. They stopped trying to emulate, and they began to create. When Dalinar hears about the half shards being developed in Kharbranth, at first he is skeptical that it could do anything, and viewed it as a waste of time. Navani comments on how they had been looking at shardblades and plate the wrong way all this time. At least that is my thinking.

So we can cherry pick when Hessi is accurate versus limited? Yet she was accurate that the Unmade were still around on Roshar even after the heralds "won", and even stated certain phenomena that is treated as normal in modern day would be attributed to them. So please let me know which of her statements are accurate, and which are inaccurate so I know what I can base my reasoning on. It wasn't her minion that screwed over the Radiant. I said it twice now, so I guess I have to quote the scene: "There!" Dalinar said, spotting a small red dot in the water. It flowed away from him, swimming like a fish. He charged after, running as he'd learned earlier. What good would it do to chase a spren, though? You couldn't catch them. Not with any method he knew. The others charged behind. Fish scattered away, frightened by Dalinar's splashing. "I'm chasing a spren" Dalinar said under his breath. "It's what we've been hunting. It looks a little like a face - a shadowy one, with red eyes. It swims through the water like a fish. Wait! There's another one. Joining it. Larger, like a full figure, easily six feet. A swimming person, but like a shadow. It-" "Storms!" The knight shouted suddenly "It brought an escort!" The larger spren twisted, then dove downward in the water, vanishing into the rocky ground. Dalinar stopped, uncertain if he should keep chasing the smaller one or remain here. The others turned and started to run the other way. "Uh-oh....." Dalinar scrambled back as the rocky lake bottom began to shake. He stumbled, splashing down into the water. It was so clear he could see the floor cracking under him, as if something large were pounding against it from beneath. The scene continues with describing the thunderclast rising from the ground, and how the radiant and the men have to square off against it. The corrupted spren spy was not what they fled from to form up behind their radiant. The corrupted spren spy was not what Dalinar went "uh-oh". It was the escort. It was the fused that we saw at the battle of Thaylenah that can inhabit the rock creating a thunderclast. That is what freaked out the radiant and the men. Not the corrupted spren. The corrupted spren they pursued and chased. The corrupted spren they knew what to look for to spot it. The corrupted spren that when they got to it, Dalinar assumed they would have a way to deal with it (either capture or destruction). If I am to believe that the reason Sja-anat was so singly terrifying to the radiants in particular due to her corrupted spren spying, then why send only one radiant to stop it? Why can mundane humans stop it? I still think there is something more to it. You started a thread with this statement: "We know that the Herald's "died" during the desolations but they have unlimited access to Honor's investiture. How did the fused kill them?" In our prior discussions you have argued that you do not personally believe this is true. So essentially you posted a thread to find others who can provide reasons why this is not true, thus validating your own belief. In other words, show how direct access to investiture means they could not be killed, or are too powerful, thereby they could not have had direct access to honor's investiture. Given that I believe the heralds did in fact have access to honors investiture directly (as per WoB), I am going to respond to those that put forward reasons why they believe the heralds did not. Since it is the thread's main dispute on the original post is that the heralds did not have direct access to honor's investiture, then me responding to that as to why I think they did is in line with the thread. If the continued rationale as to why the heralds would not have direct access to honor's investiture is it would mean they are too powerful, then it is in line with the thread for me to respond that I believe Odium's forces have greater means to draw upon, to balance the heralds drawing directly on honor, so then the heralds would not be too powerful. To me that is all well in line with the thread.

mistborn spoilers The quote was from Hessi. The scene I referenced was a vision. If spying was so fearful, I still do not understand why it was so singularly focused on the radiants. Not humans in general, not the heralds, not "the forces of honor". Radiants. But to each their own. What does the Unmade's presence have to do with it? Please read the scene, I provided the page number for reference. A soldier saw something unusual. They figured it might be a corrupted spren of Sja-anat, and put together a small group to hunt it. A small group being 1 radiant, and a few mundane individuals (possibly squires, though they slosh through water and don't exhibit surges like the radiant does). They seem pretty confident they can handle it. it is only when the escort shows up, that is revealed to be a voidbringer that can create a thunderclast, that the situation escalates. So I still do not see spying alone as so singularly dangerous to radiants that it is specifically mentioned.

And for myself, the forces we have not seen yet from Odium is what balances that equation. So to me it is less that we should lower the power of the heralds because what we see now does would not equal that. It is more that the power level of Odium will be revealed to be equal to the level of the heralds based on the level I posit. So myself the equation balances. We just haven't seen all the variables yet that account for the balance. Again tidbits. I think those are bits of a whole. But to each their own. I respect your opinion, but personally disagree. WoB show when discussing heralds, and mistborn spoiler: regarding leaving the planet, Brandon references Vasher/Zahel. They are all cognitive shadows. Mistborn spoilers: The quote specifies the radiants fearing her above all else. if it was just for spying, I would imagine the heralds and all of honors forces would be just as terrified, but apparently it is especially radiants. That says to me it is more. But I guess we will RAFO And any rational military commander from the days of the desolations with access to radiants full abilities would be able to keep an eye out for a corrupted spren, and know what to look for like in Dalinar's vision, thereby preventing it. That still does not come off as terrifying to radiants in particular. But to each their own. edit: Words of Radiance page 72 To save typing out the entire scene, Dalinar's group is tracking a spren corrupted by Sja-anat. Coeb saw something, so they made a group of squires with one knight to hunt for it. Just as they nearly got it, its escort shows up. The escort dives into the ground and a thunderclast breaks from the earth, while the corrupted spren escapes. So the spren can be spotted and stopped with one radiant, and a few men. I think it would take more for that to be so especially fearful. But to each their own.

No problem. For completeness here is the quote with the pertinent portions highlighted: Way of Kings page 364 "How would he feel, marrying someone like Laral? He'd never be her equal. Their children would have a chance of being lighteyed or darkeyed, so even his children might outrank him....." "If he went to war, however, he would have a place. Maybe he could even do the nearly unthinkable, win a Shardblade and become a true lighteyes. Then he could marry Laral and not have to be her inferior."

She would retain her rank, Kaladin would be raised up to the highest level of darkeyes he could be, and if their child was a lighteyes, the child would outrank Kaladin. It is discussed in the book.

Not the wording I would use based on how I envision it, but sure if that is how you want to say it. I wouldn't personally call the morphing fused that cracked Kaladin with his club hand while Kaladin fought Amaram a lucky shot, but that is one form of a scenario I would envision.

The cat came back the very next day....... Does you plenty of good if you don't die permanently lol.

Ever read the gothic novel The Monk? The people the devil aims for most are the most "good". Personally I do not think of values as a shield that makes you immune to turning bad. Values can be distorted and twisted. Honestly I do not think anyone is safe from Odium's influence. Dalinar included. Its a continuing resistance.

The amount of damage you do before you are taken out? Kamikaze pilots at Pearl Harbor and Suicide bombers are terrifying, and cause countless damage. And they don't get to come back to do it all over again. I agree. Yes it does if you killed 5 thunderclasts before the one that got you. The vision with Dalinar seeing Kholinar devastated shows multiple thunderclasts shattered and destroyed. I do not believe it is luck when we have not see any of Odium's forces at full power yet. Corrupting spren for spying purposes is dangerous yes, but the epigraph states: "Of the Unmade, Sja-anat was most feared by the Radiants." That says to me there is something especially threatening about Sja-anat to the radiants, and I do not think we have seen it yet. Being a spy does not scream "most feared" to me. I disagree. I think it is indicative that she is not all that she once was and the imprisonment either damaged or deprived her of it. That if she was whole, she would be a far greater threat. I never said his massive cognitive self was his means of fighting. I mean all he was used for in that instance was a trap. He hung around an area getting certain people to indulge basically broadcasting to the radiants "come here!". To set them up. I do not think that is the full extent of his abilities. We know it is possible for cognitive shadows to get off world (Vasher), but you have to learn how to. The fused make the transition without bodies, and the heralds and the fused were originally meant to function the same way. I think that if the heralds have to grow a new body everytime they come to Roshar, and we know they are cognitive shadows, then on Braize they lack bodies. But that is not conclusive. There are still rules that are obeyed across the cosmere. Any exception to the rule has a reason. We know all Shard's power is in the spiritual realm. There is only one exception, and we know that was changed on purpose. I see no reason why the heralds would function differently. But to each their own. When I think of someone especially terrifying to me, spying does not hit the top of my list. Exactly. All I have been saying is we have not seen the full forces Odium can bring to bear. I think Odium had greater powers that challenged and could kill herald level threats. Just we have not seen them yet. To me the reason is because there are other forces going on. The thunderclast could just have been the stick that broke the camels back as it were. Szeth could still use the surges while the honorblade was dismissed. Now whether the blade can get knocked out of the hand of the herald and prevent them from using it then, I do not know. Honorblades are different than shardblades in that when the blade it dropped, it does not mist away. Szeth had to break the connection or be killed. I personally do not think either side had an instant win button. I think if you only look at one side or the other, it will look like an instant win button, but I think both sides check mate each other. I think the heralds had direct access to honor's investiture, and that odium had something just as powerful to balance that. as to your responses: 1. general parsh: my point is the parsh is not at what they once were, which was beings bonding with forms of power numbering in the hundreds, while also some housing fused, and who knows what else. so the parsh are not at full power right now in my mind 5. and my point is we have not see all the surges the fused have access to yet. Not because they do not exist, but because they have not popped up yet. So again, Odium's forces not at full power 6. the epigraphs speak of such a vessel. Personally I think it requires the vessel to be able to use investiture, and if you cannot provide, then yelig-nar consumes you, but regardless I do not think we have seen the full extent of what Yelig-nar can do. so again, Odium's forces not at full power. 7. Odium had Nergaoul just sit around an area to get the Alethi in the right state of mind for later. Turash was surprised by this. So if this is all Nergaeul ever did in the past, then Turash would not have been surprised in my mind. So to me, there is more Nergaoul can and has done in the past than what we have seen so far. 9. I am beginning to think you misunderstood my post. My point is to show we have no see these entities operating at peak efficiency in their prime heyday. 10. Ashertmarn did not destroy the city to me. Ashertmarn was a trap for the radiants. I think it can do so much more 11. Again, that is my point. We have not seen what Moelach can truly do. Now have all the unmade at their full power, and then to me, heralds drawing directly on honor being necessary makes sense. So TLDR, to me the heralds drawing on honor directly makes sense in light of the full extent of Odium's forces and powers being brought to fore. If I have a tank, and you have a rifle, it looks like your side will lose. Then your side flies in a bomber, and the tank is turned to slag. Then it looks like my side cannot possibly win. But then I bring forward anti-aircraft guns, and then suddenly it looks like you cannot win. So all I am saying is we have only seen a pistol and told that my side has tanks. And people are telling me my side cannot have tanks, because pistols cannot do anything against tanks. And I am saying, your side might have bombers, artillery, or even nukes. So now tanks don't seem so overwhelmingly powerful anymore. Hopefully that clarified things. I think the WoB I have posted shows the heralds were of the level I posit. To each their own

Sorry won't change your mind, because I agree with you. The book definitely took a nose dive to me, and got way too preachy. He ended it with a literal deus ex machina.

So just two things: 1. Yes Adolin is a great guy, but theoretically anyone can be corrupted. Theoretically everyone has a breaking point. Theoretically anything could happen to switch anyone. Cultivation said Dalinar could have just as easily sided with Odium. The heralds were supposed to be paragons to fight back the voidbringers, but they too fell. So I think it is reductionist to state there is no way Adolin could ever switch sides to Odium or become Odium's champion. 2. Adolin has always been enraged by Sadeas. Renarin comments how he does not like how Adolin gets around Sadeas. So just because he got enraged in the past, and was only held back by Renarin and co, does not mean he didn't kill Sadeas in a rage. Just means there is a past pattern.

The readings still match up to me with Kaladin and Shallan working together. In the reading where Kaladin reveals himself to Lirin, he would have to look like himself, otherwise how would Lirin recognize him? So going without the illusion briefly, or lowering it to make contact makes sense to me. Second, in the most recent reading, Lirin is surprised that they are looking for Kaladin. Earlier he mentions they have a way of disguising the Mink and co. I think that means of disguise is Shallan, and that Lirin is surprised that they are tracking Kaladin. Something might have happened elsewhere that gave him away. Like for instance when Kaladin traveled with the parsh, and then fled when they reached the town/city. Someone might have gotten in danger, and he charged in to save them, blowing his cover. Whole host of possibilities. So I am still going to cling to my theory that Kaladin and Shallan are out in the field together. But to each their own.

Really hoping for some Navani Urithiru research, further fabrial research, some possible bondsmithing or dustbringing. Cannot wait for Magitech!

Then as I will say again below, I guess to each their own. Then I guess here we will have to agree to disagree, because The honorblades acts the same way. It says what abilities the herald gets. The heralds get direct access to a shard's power. You can lash an object however many times you want so long as you have the stormlight to do so. If there is no limit on the stormlight, there is no limit to how much you lash. What you can soulcast is limited by how much stormlight you have (as a radiant). As per WoB, a radiant in a highstorm can soulcast whatever they want. If you had the honorblade that gave you transformation, there would be no limit on what you could soulcast. This naturally extends from one to the other for me. It does not for you. I guess we will have to wait till we learn more from the heralds, or see Taln's and Shallash's flashbacks before we bury this hatchet. Conjecture is basing assertions without any information that could support it. I provided information that I believe supports it. You disagree which is your right, but that does not make it conjecture. The WoB provided earlier stated that before honor died, the honorblades drew directly from the shard. Honor is currently dead, so current honorblades cannot draw directly on the shard. That is why they are inefficient in using stormlight. The honorblades never needed to be conservative before. If you have an unending power source, you do not focus your design of a machine for efficiency. You design it for power. So Nale, with an honorblade as they currently are, after the death of honor, would not be an auto win button. However they are still a threat because if a certain someone :::cough:::: Dalinar :::cough cough:::: can restore the shard of honor, then the honorblades would work as they once did again, and then the heralds become a clear and present danger. So Odium is preemptively taking them off the board. Let us take a look at what we have seen from Odium so far: 1. general parsh 2. gravitation fused 3. abrasion fused 4. illumination fused 5. potentially progression or cohesion fused (the fused that alters its carapace) 6. Yelig-nar in faulty vessels 7. unguided Nergaoul 8. scared, fragmented, missing something Re-shephir 9. a taste of Sja-anat 10. a taste of Ashertmarn 11. a taste of Moelach 12. two thunderclasts with specific missions (the gemstone reserve, the oathgate) ignoring everything else Now lets see what we have not seen: 1. the other forms the fused have 2. Ba-Ado-Mishram 3. Dai-Gonarthis 4. Chemoarish 5. Yelig-nar in a true vessel 6. Re-Shephir with whatever Shallan felt she was missing 7. Sja-anat doing whatever terrified the radiants most about her (which we do not know) 8. Ashertmarn not just setting a trap but fully fighting 9. Moelach doing his full deal and not just causing the death rattles from his presence 10. the fused that bonded Venli's lover and friends If Odium was worrying about a "win button", then why did he tell his army of parsh to sit back and do nothing? He already thought he won. He didn't need any of the res. Now he does. Just because an enemy soldier may come to battle with a pistol, and you win with a ak-47, does not mean that army does not have access to tanks, fighter jets, or even nukes. It just means at that point, the enemy only thought it needed a pistol. Now it knows it needs more, you are going to see more. But at the end of the day it is clear how you feel, and it is clear how I feel, so I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

As I said earlier, Odium has not brought his full forces because he did not think he needed to. To his knowledge the heralds gave up, he had Sadeas's troops, Dalinar as his champion, Kaladin, Shallan, and Adolin dead, Jasnah killing Renarin, and Urithiru attacked from within. He literally told his parsh force to sit back and chill because he had everything so handled. Now that two heralds have sided with the humans, Dalinar is not his champion, Kaladin Shallan and Adolin are most definitely not dead, Jasnah did not kill Renarin, and Urithiru is still standing, Odium will bring his full forces to bear. He has already begun, hence sending Moash to kill a herald preemptively. So still all lines up to me. Now as to: Which would stand the same for a herald as per WoB. But you are entitled to disagree. Guess we will RAFO. edit: was able to pull up the WoB from the other thread. I have added them to the spoiler since it discusses mistborn

My favorite characters are Jasnah, and Renarin with Szeth starting to grow on me. Jasnah: Wrote a whole long thread on the depth of the character. She is an atheist who stands for her beliefs in a religious world. She is a feminist in a world that wants to codify people by sex and eye color. She is an intellectual with a vunerable side. And finally she has my favorite power system, transformation and transportation. Renarin: That poor kid has been through so much, yet he still loves his family dearly. He is genuine and tries his hardest to overcome a society and culture that is tailor built to despise him. He is lowkey smart, and resourceful, helping his family succeed on multiple occasions (Dalinar's visions, the countdown, the thunderclast), and once he figures things out, I think his combination of future sight and regeneration will be epic Szeth: At first I wasn't big on the character for constantly pushing off responsibility to the owner of the oathstone. Yes he claimed the deaths were his fault, but I still think by saying he is forced to do it by the oathstone, was pushing off responsibility. But as of the end of Words of Radiance and Oathbringer, he has begun to take responsibility and work on growing. Also cannot wait to see the interaction between gravitation and division.

So since we have only two instances to draw on with cognitive shadows gaining physical bodies (heralds and ) it is difficult to say. Considering the bodies are created for them, who knows, maybe theoretically they can will themselves to release their hold/contact with the body. I think that question at least is a very much RAFO because I do not recall any information that can hint one way or the other.

This was the part that confused me: "It does make sense though, if they have to make their way back to Braize voluntarily in case they survive, then they definitely have to be caught in order to get them to break." I read it as: 1. If they have to make their way back to Braize voluntarily in case they survive 2. Then they definitely have to be caught on Roshar (you didn't say Roshar, I am only explaining how it sounded in my head)) to be made to break so they return Sorry I misunderstood, and I apologize for the confusion!

Sorry to clarify, I was mainly responding to what Config said, but included you because you agreed with him or her, so didn't want to seem like I was ignoring you. I reread your post again, and maybe I misunderstand but, I thought what you and Config are saying is this: 1. Heralds on Roshar 2. Some heralds die and immediately go back to Braize 3. Some heralds live, and hide on Roshar 4. They are tracked down and killed so they can be sent to Braize for torture Which I was saying: 1. Heralds on Roshar 2. Some heralds die and immediately go back to Braize 3. Some heralds live. They must voluntarily travel back to Braize or the desolation begins anew 4. On Braize they can flee and try to hide to avoid their torturers. If caught, they are then tortured At least that is what I thought I understood of what Config and you were saying. Sorry if I misunderstood Now as to another point Config made: Personally I think that the heralds then being cognitive shadows on Braize limits what they can do. They do not have a body, so potentially they cannot access the powers of their honorblade on braize. Mistborn spoilers below: So potentially the heralds cannot surgebind or heal like they can on roshar while being a cognitive shadow on Braize. But they are still subject to torture as another mistborn spoiler