Pathfinder

I am still trying to parse/make sense of just about everything on that planet not making sense with autonomy (except how sand masters work). The main religion of Dayside worships a sand lord that controls all aspects of your life. The sand masters, our first real look at the magic system, is seen as blasphemy and hated by the sand lord who is theoretically making such magic possible. The most powerful being we have heard of on darkside, Scythe, is a dictator bent on world domination through use of his skycolors that enable him to control others (as per Baon). So just about nothing on Taldain remotely gives off the sense of autonomy and living free lol edit: to clarify the main religion I am speaking of is Kershtian

Well if a dead sprenblade is similar to a shaod elantrian, then are there some insights we can glean from the restoration of an elantrian to figure out how to restore a dead sprenblade?

Lol, thats whats driving me nuts. I rememeber somewhere him mentioning eating soup while sick due to storing which is the scene you are referencing. Yet searching soup, broth, and sleep turns up nothing in all three books regarding that scene. I may actually have to re-read the trilogy just to try and catch it lol. There is something I noticed while digging into all of this, though bear in mind that this does not affect your original point at all, just a tidbit of info I thought funny/interesting. Marasi states on the escape pod that mostly everyone else is sleeping while she talks to Allik, but in actuality less than half are, if any at all. So there are a total of 7 people on the ship plus supplies. Marasi, Allik, Wayne, MeLann, Steris, Wax, and Telsin. Marasi and Allik we clearly know are awake as the scene focuses on them talking. Wax shoots up when Marasi switches bands shaking the ship, revealing he was never really asleep and was eavesdropping. Steris later states she was awake on the ship listing the order of importance/effectiveness she was to the party. MeLann stated earlier she does not need to sleep. Telsin is not mentioned so she, like schrodingers cat could both either be awake or asleep during this scene. Finally the only person clearly stated that is asleep is Wayne as he wakes up suddenly from a dream worrying he was going to fall plummeting out of the ship. So out of 7 people, only one clearly was actually asleep during the escape pod scene. This however doesn't change anything as when they first escaped, all of them were wearing the bands, and Allik states how they are barely able to keep afloat with 7 plus supplies despite that being over the ship's capacity. So it couldn't even be said that they could deal with a slight increase of weight from one or two people sleeping/deactivating the bands, as they barely seemed to be able to with everyone actively wearing the bands. Finally, Marasi assumed most of them were sleeping. Had the ship been able to handle one or two sleeping and thus not storing, then Allik would have freaked/stopped the rest from "going to bed". So something is definitely at least going on with the medallions themselves or it was a mistake on Sanderson's part. Just wish I could find that scene with Wayne to definitively show something is going on.

So basically everything Argel and C. James-Mayer but to add a bit regarding Adolin. When it comes to his family, Adolin challenges societal norms left and right. His whole problem with his father in the first book is over the fact that society wants you to drink, fight, and dress fashionably, yet because he knows it is important to his father and is loyal to him, Adolin counters society by abstaining heavy drink, not dueling, and dressing in uniform. Being useful in a fight is important to Renarin. He feels like a failure because he can't. Adolin clearly loves his brother, and hurts when he sees Renarin hurt. As you pointed out in countless other posts extolling the qualities of Adolin, he countered societal norms by locking himself in jail with Kaladin because it was the right thing to do. Also as pointed out, left hands aren't seen negatively in the books regarding men. It was purely for women. We do not see any men with covered safe hands. I hope this doesn't come off as an attack towards you. It was a clever and insightful thought/possibility. Just I responded based on the evidence I feel is in the books that makes it in my opinion unlikely. I would not want my responses to be received as me beating you over the head with it, so I hope it is not be received as such. My intention is just to present my own opinion, and cite references to back it up.

From what I recall there is a WoB that states you can only store wakefulness while sleeping. Unfortunately my search-fu for WoB is non-existant, and my search-fu in ebooks apparently is lacking. I will do my best to locate the scene we are discussing, but I have yet to find it. edit: just to clarify, I am not pushing to find the quote to disprove anyone. I just feel if we can quote the exact wording of the scene it might give us further insight into what may be the cause, whether it was a typo, meant to be that way, or we just recalled incorrectly.

This is all I was able to find that came close: AoL page 98 "Spent a good two weeks sick in bed after you left" AoL page 109 "Took me a good two weeks in bed to store up that much. Hope that girl of yours is worth it." AoL page 186 "I'll have to spend a few weeks in bed after this, feeling wretched. Otherwise, I'll be unable to heal myself. hell, I'm already storing as much as I can and still move about normally. By the end of the day, I'll barely have enough to heal a scratch." AoL page 192 He preferred to fill it in large chunks. That made him very sick, but he could sleep it off and drink a lot to pass the time. (I took this to mean he would store a lot of health, end up catching a cold, stop storing, sleep and drink it off, and then rinse and repeat) Have you had any luck locating it? (although all the quotes are from Alloy of Law, I did do the same searches on Shadows of Self and Bands of Mourning) Guess I am going to have to search by Wayne, which is going to take awhile. Ah well, will follow up if I hopefully find it.

I have the kindle ebook. I searched soup, broth, store, wayne soup, wayne store, and bed and that scene still doesn't come up. What is maddening is I know what you are talking about. I vaguely remember it too. All I found however is Wayne saying how usually when storing a lot of health to pass the time he stays in bed a lot, groggy and drinking liquor. Doesn't mention sleeping in said bed. Maybe that is the case with that scene too? He could be mentioning staying in bed and eating soup, but doesn't mean actually sleeping which is where the confusion could come in? Because if that is the case, then perhaps the medallions are the exception to the feruchemist rule?

Can you provide the quote where Wayne says he can store while sleeping? In the back of my mind I feel I remember reading that too, but I tried searching by sleep, gold, and health, with none of the searches turning anything up.

This is a quote from Words of Radiance, between Dalinar and the Stormfather: WoR page 1070 "What do you know of this storm that the Parshendi unleashed?" "THE EVERSTORM. IT IS A NEW THING, BUT OLD OF DESIGN. IT ROUNDS THE WORLD NOW, AND CARRIES WITH IT HIS SPREN. ANY OF THE OLD PEOPLE IT TOUCHES WILL TAKE ON THEIR NEW FORMS"

Renarin was willing to run into multiple situations not trained or in some situations not even properly armed just to help or feel useful. Although ultimately misguided, I do not think based on the evidence we have from the book that Renarin would avoid using his left hand in combat if it could improve his skill even marginally. Adolin is a professional dueler and is incredibly close to Renarin. He grew up with him. If anyone would know that Renarin was born left handed, it would be Adolin. If there was anyone who would see and encourage Renarin to fight with his left hand to be more skilled in combat which is something Renarin has wanted his entire life it would be Adolin. And if anyone could tell Renarin is using a sword in his off hand instead of his main, it would be the man who trained Adolin. The man Adolin convinced to train Renarin. The man who comes from a world where left or right handed doesn't mean crem. Zahel would notice, and he would say something about it. Finally Dalinar, Kaladin, and Teft are men very skilled in combat, and or training troops. They have years of experience noticing a person's strengths and weaknesses. How to focus on the strengths, and minimize those weaknesses. All three have been around Renarin while he trains during different times in his life. So I find it very hard to believe that Zahel, Dalinar, Adolin, Kaladin and Teft who are all very knowledgable in that field, would none of them notice Renarin is left handed and wielding a sword handicapped in his right.

Ah my misunderstanding. I thought you were using the quote as evidence that Bavadin is dead. My mistake

That still doesn't preclude that training would exist for a highprince's son for alternative hand forms. It is not contrary to the religion for a man to use his left hand, only for women. Do you think Dalinar or Adolin for that matter would hesitate for a second from training with an opposing hand or even training Renarin in left handed if it meant the difference between being effective in combat or not? Especially considering how prized combat is in the masculine arts, and how badly Renarin wants to be useful in combat.

Although valid, that is still very loose and far from conclusive. The past tense could be referring to accusing Hoid in the past, while he still carries the grudge for both. Secondly, that portion does not indicate at all whether Bavadin or Rayse are alive or dead. Just that Hoid held a grudge. Finally, the structure of the sentence implies to me that there is one action or occurance that both Bavadin and Rayse took that resulted in a grudge for the both of them. If they did multiple transgressions, then I could see using the term grudges, but the plural of the word grudge is not to denote the number of individuals it is pointed at. In fact, I could say I have a grudge against James for stealing and Mike for lying. Still used the singular grudge for two separate individuals, for two separate transgressions. I do not mean to come off attacking, just that that phrasing does not necessarily indicate what you think it may indicate.

See my thing is this. In order for a Hoid cameo, the reader needs to be able to recognize him somehow. In every instance of a Hoid cameo where he is disguised, he is called Hoid. In every instance where he goes by a different name, or is not identified by name, he has the standard appearance we all know (albeit dirty or gruff from dressing as a beggar, but still holding the narrow face, and white hair). If Hoid is completely disguised, and goes by a different name, then the reader cannot recognize him at all, thus no cameo unless Sanderson specifically says "hey that guy that doesn't look, sound, or act like Hoid at all? He's Hoid!"

But if I recall correctly, the issue of right or left hand is feminine, not masculine. It does not dictate how you must hold the sword. Also if that was hypothetically the case, I could easily see Zahel noticing the discrepancy with Renarin and saying how it is stupid to hamstring yourself in a battle simply because of which hand you happen to favor.

There is a theory, or an idea that since abandoning the oath pact, the Heralds have become the 10 fools, which are the corrupted versions of the ideals they were meant to uphold. So instead of being wise and poised, he is drunk and gibbering.

True, except that the kershtian religion teaches that only the sand lord is the final adjudicator, and to surrender oneself to his control. Now that religion may have it wrong, or there could be a kernal of truth muddied up over the years. Or in a way that is the essence of self governance you speak of. Allowing people to either chose to have a rigid religion (kershtian), a loose one (the pagan one we aren't told much of), or none at all (the sand masters) and letting the strong (the resulting dominant religion) survive. The problem with this, is that the Kershtian religion at least teaches that the Sand Lord dictates everything. Anything bad happens? Sand Lord sent it because he is pissed at you. Anything good happens? Sand Lord sent it because he is happy with you. If you aren't Kershtian, you aren't allowed in the afterlife in the Sand Lord's graces. It is only the recent Akar that is allowing Lossanders and others not born Kershtian, to join and thus have an afterlife. This sounds very much to me like a shard mandating, influencing and controlling lives. Then again, like I said in the previous paragraph, maybe the Kershtian religion "got it all wrong", and the point of White Sand the trilogy is for Kenton to take over the Sand Masters and set the record straight. Or since it was hinted briefly there existed a religion with a pantheon, perhaps that is the Trell we know of, where the Sand Lord is Nalt who is full of hubris and demanding of worship, while Trell is worshiped secretly. But then there is the fact that we get the POV of Ais who is a devout worshiper and we never hear in his head him mention any other deity over the Sand Lord. Gah! Need more info! lol.

Good point, so upvote. However, I don't know. All the 10 sub-intents can be argued as different forms of honor. Meanwhile Autonomy seems contradictory, as is even stated in the religious belief of possibly his main worshipers. Like day and night, light and dark, good and evil. Opposites existing together despite their contradictory natures.

So something popped in my head as I am re-reading White Sand. Ais is musing about Kenton and is there any chance of salvation for the Sand Master who uses an "evil" art, yet seems good. He says to himself: "it was a basis of Ker'reen philosophy that the world was made up of opposites, and God was He in whom opposites could coexist without destroying one another. he was darkness and light, for He had created both. he was good and evil, cold and heat, love and hatred. He could condemn the sandmasters, yet have mercy for them at the same time. The doctrine of Coexistent Contradiction was a major part of Kershtian belief system." Ais is a trackt constantly in control in his emotions, and extremely effective. Except when his rage overwhelms him and turns him into a foaming, incoherent, brute. Eric at the start of the story is lackadaisical, and fears responsibility as it leads to combat, conflict and death of those he commands, yet he ends up being exactly that. Kenton spent his whole life rebelling, only to realize it is quite adept at commanding. Baon, the frank, and up front companion, is a duplicitous spy, and so on. A lot of places on this forum people go back and forth on how Autonomy couldn't be driving Bleeder because attacking another planet, or working with another shard, or using an organization is contrary to the idea of autonomy. That Autonomy would hate the sandmasters. The best reasoning I could come up with is maybe the vessel of Autonomy to begin with had multiple personality disorder. Even if this doesn't make sense, something about Autonomy, despite its intent, allows it to hold numerous.....best word I can come up with is views? So basically this is not so much a theory as something I realized in the book, and wonder what are peoples thoughts in view of this new piece of information. edit: another possibility is this religion could have been a prophesy of harmony?

Admittedly we do not know if there is other darkside magic, but Khriss did state how she could not use her skycolors on dayside. So at least we can rule out any ability from skycolors on Eric's part.

Problem with that is even Kenton comments that it is odd, and the native wildlife learned that enough to stay way from shallow sand, and some of the creatures evolved to only exist on the surface (tonks). Finally it was also commented on how you couldn't put tonks on boats because no matter how you stored them, or blinded them, they instinctfully somehow knew they were surrounded by water and would freak out. In our own natural world animals learn to stay away from certain poisonous plants and such, and the deep sand is actually densly populated with small, medium and large sandlings to the point that just being on the edge of deep sand still allowed the Reegent to hunt a large one with its humongous parent nearby. So there would be enough sandlings near by to experience one of their own dying from eating a human to learn from the experience. interesting tidbit to theorize over: "They believe the Sand Lord manifests himself in sandstorms, that the sand is his body, and the sun is his eye."

Ah I gotcha now. I will post more as I find anything I think of note. So far only additional thing I found regarding the sandlings are that deep sandlings still attack and attempt to eat humans even though it is lethal for them to do so, and some information I posted in another thread shown below: Dorim vines rise to the surface for sun, and then retreat under ground so they do not dry out. They are the reason there are no deep sandlings as the vines criss cross every 10 feet or so. The vines do not exist in the deep sand however, because they need to stretch down to the rocks below to reach the water. The deep sand is too deep for them to do this as they cannot survive in areas where this distance is too great.

Well subsequent kandra (excluding the first generation) aren't technically really of the human species anymore even before getting spikes so it would make sense for them to be weaker, or work slightly different. Could the 4 spike rule be like the capstone? Like after 4 spikes, it doesn't matter how many more you get? Like it doesn't matter if you have five vs 10, once you break the 4 spike threshold, you are vulnerable the same amount. Just throwing out some possibilities.

edit: little tidbit I picked up in the book. Khriss asks why Kherstians hate sand masters and Kenton's response is "The believe the Sand Lord manifests himself in sandstorms, that the sand is his body, and the sun is his eye."

I posted a recent follow up to that thread with a quote stating that sand masters can master at range, just that ability is currently beyond Kenton. I have included that quote at the end of my post. Also of note, though I cannot recall what he was wearing at the time, Kenton attempted to touch the sand with his elbow while struggling with an assassin, to master it. I believe he was wearing a robe, so the sleeve could have fallen back so he could touch it with bare skin, or it turns out touch does not require bare flesh to master (for Kenton in particular). Then again, if that was the case, then why couldn't he master anytime he was standing on sand? Page 289 "never mind, I'm coming back up!" Kenton called, reaching for his sand pouch. He paused, however. Powerful sand masters didn't need to be touching sand to call it to life. It was one of the abilities Kenton had always wished he possessed.