Kurkistan

On the shield: Apparently it's just a monogram from Whelan, not anything series-related.

Very well done. Old Catquisitor and me have been through some tough times together, though, so I think I'll stick with what I know.

I'm not thinking "recognized as a Feruchemical attribute", more "recognized as a valid target for burning for Allomantic power". So far as Compounding being a hack, recall that apparently a Compounder doesn't have a choice in the matter: once they start the burn, it immediately becomes Feruchemical. But oooh, I do like the "constant tapping" idea... Maybe unlocked metalminds are auto-tapped by everyone, then, under your model? Why not? The leakage idea is valid too, I think. If you want to stick with leakage, the reason why a random person burning a normal metalmind isn't Compounding could hark back to your idea of "sticking" form earlier: The Investiture is simply of the wrong type to stick to them, so it doesn't affect them. --- I think I'll stick with "Feruchemical breaker" as my head-cannon for now, if only because of a whim, but as of this moment I would not be surprised if your model was close to the truth. Have some Rep.

Hmm... Recall that Vin didn't sense Sazed's reserve until after she started burning. Recall also that allomancy happens because of the actual physical "molecular" structure of the metals. There have been those who've argued that Feruchemical storage actually alters the physical metal, but I think it more likely that it's just hiding out in the Spiritual aspect. In the second case, then, what if Preservation's power needs you to burn the physical metal before it can register the nature of that metal's Spiritual component and use it as a "filter"? So the power can't "see" the Feruchemical nature of the metal until you've already started burning it.

I may well be wrong on the "Feruchemical breaker". That literally occurred to me as I was writing it, though I can't think of any alternatives at the moment. Do you have any ideas on what we might be able to use to replace it? Sorry? Insulting you was not my intent, and I must say I find your reaction somewhat out of proportion even if you read it as such.

Finally! The ballista is vindicated, by SCIENCE!

I think it takes a fairly liberal interpretation of the text for Vin to have not been getting the benefits of Allomantic pewter during that scene. Characters burn metals all the time without mentioning their effects directly: Vin is burning pewter and bronze most all the time in WoA, for instance. And it's rather obvious to the allomancer when they're burning, from the POV's we've seen. I'd be very very surprised if Brandon wrote that scene with Vin's Allomantic pewter suddenly not working properly, all without word one of comment on it. It really doesn't seem the natural reading unless we're trying to force compliance with a theory such as yours, if I may be somewhat blunt. Towards the end of that quote, even, she says there's "another reserve" that is "far beyond [her] grasp", not "my pewter reserve was replaced by another reserve which I am currently burning which isn't doing anything." This when she's conscious of burning his pewtermind specifically, all without any comment of not getting the benefits of Allomantic pewter. So we don't have WoB, but I think this one, at least, is fairly firmly settled just by the books. We actually do have WoB that essentially confirms at least an instant of allomantic burning for everyone. Source: This rather firmly suggests that aluminum can't be compounded without stumbling into its allomantic effect. LATER: Oops, I had actually forgotten that first quote (adds it in). Soooo... I guess that's that. I win? Sorry to end on such an anticlimactic note. I do enjoy debates. I'd probably settle on some kind of "resonance" once the metalmind starts up. Looking at the pair of quotes in the WoB above, Brandon says "super-burst of Feruchemical power with no Allomantic effect" about 10 seconds before allowing for Aluminum to have an Allomantic effect, which suggests an instantaneous aMetal burn that trips the "Feruchemy breaker" if the proper code is met. I don't think that Feruchemical health is inherently more potent, but I agree that it's a discussion for another thread. No problem, I tend to do that too (both the poor communication and the necro-editing ). I just wanted to clear up any confusion if I was looking obtuse and/or like I hadn't read your post. Bad alloys, hmm... Well it's a moot point so far as the parallel with compounding goes because I found the WoB to end all WoB's. Sorry again for not remembering it earlier.

Kukri again, I think (it's a family name). Praise the Ja.

@Moogle Your model of how this would work for Augor's seems off. Consider: Vin burned Sazed's Pewtermind and sensed his inaccessible power. But, while she was doing this experiment, she gained the power of Allomantic pewter from the metal, not some "wrong-keyed" Investiture that she couldn't utilize. Stored Strength of any kind, then, seems to only kick in when she is allowed to access it, at least on some level. It's not just a case of the Investiture not being "forced into" Strength, but instead of it seeming to never actually interact with the Strength at all. That means that the metalmind "looks at" an Allomancer before Compounding kicks in. It doesn't simply overwrite the original metal. If you're right, then it seems that Vin either shouldn't have been able to burn the pewtermind at all or shouldn't have gotten any Allomantic pewter power from it. You seem to say that she should have gotten "Sazed-Strength", but that it just wouldn't "stick." However, what actually happened was that she got Allomantic pewter from the metal. Recall how Brandon describes Compounding as working: Source: We have a more telling quote, though: Source: I was originally a bit leery of this WoB because we know almost for certain that there's at least some allomantic burning that goes on first: there are no aluminum compounders because it would go "poof" for them if they tried. However, I suppose the most reasonable interpretation is that compounders get "hijacked" into compounding an instant after they try to start an allomantic burn, the "beat changes", as it were. Following from this WoB, then, it seems to follow from your model that no Allomancer should ever be able to get more that an instant of Allomantic power from a normal metalmind. Vin shouldn't have been able to burn that earring: it seems that you think she should have been flooded with worthless Investiture instead. That didn't happen, obviously, so it seems instead that compounding only ever kicks in when the allomancer already has "permissions" to use the attribute. ---- Please correct me if I'm wrong in how I interpret you. EDIT: Ah, I see that you altered your post while I was typing to make it a bit more clear what you were getting at. To clarify, then: Should Vin be able to yeild Allomantic pewter from Sazed's pewtermind, or should she instead get a flood of Investitures that just happens to not "stick" to her? On "generic" attributes: I thought this one was put to bed long ago. I see no reason to believe that a Bloodmaker stores anything but "genericized" Health at all times. I seriously doubt that Sazed's goldminds are storing "his" ideal health, but rather that it simply stores health that is applied at-the-moment when he taps it. This is far simpler and aligns Feruchemical gold with how other healing magics work in the Cosmere: Working with Cognitive aspects in the moment rather than from the past. Perhaps it could theoretically work another way, but I don't find the possibility very likely. So I predict that your prediction about "generic" metalminds working worse is wrong. It's far too strong to say that it's not "in any way suggested or supported" by the WoB, what with all the reasons I've given for why I think the WoB supports/suggests that the Augor could tap, and both Pech and I, at the very least, coming to that conclusion as a result of this WoB.

This is the better place for the discussion, I think. As I've said, I think the fairly intuitive implication of Brandon's reply is that the Augor could also just tap the metalmind, meaning that just about anyone could tap it. Normally only people who can tap an attribute can compound it, so the implication... I admit that it's possible that that's not how it is, but I find it unlikely. Compounding is a hack, pure and simple. The magic systems aren't really "supposed" to interact. I find it doubtful, then, that one needs to be an Augor in order to access this stored Health. Allomancy is not then "taken into account" when deciding whether someone can access a Feruchemical attribute: Any degree of access for someone who isn't the Feruchemist s unusual. At that point, then, I think, there is no call to isolate Allomantic gold as the reason why the Augor can access any amount of Health in any way from the goldmind. I also think previous/related speculation on how "Feruchemical permissions" likely work supports the "muggles can tap too!" interpretation.

Care to offer your own thoughts?

It's possible to interpret that WoB as needing to be born somewhere as a requirement only for actually using that region's magic, not its connection to the Dor. So Shai couldn't suddenly start using AonDor if she moved to Arelon, but she still might be able to use Aon Aon as her "sealing mark" on her stamps and access the Dor that way.

I believe Crysanja meant "thread", and "clean" was referring somewhat obliquely to refraining from posting on this thread, since it makes it look like a new reading may have been released, and so gets people's hopes up.

USS* Vindication, surely. *: United Scadrial Ship Ahem. It's actually the S.S. Vindicator. *Scadrial Ship

*Sidesteps gender-role debate. I am not getting into this.* Hark! For I am Kurkistan, Deliverer of WoB. This may partially answer your question. Source:

Fair enough. I may well have overstated my case a bit. @Darnam Thanks for the quote.

@Leonardus The point of my talking about a twinborn was to highlight the potential "atium-cancelling" ability of Feruchemical zinc. The Sparker isn't freezing time and thinking in a vacuum: he is able to observe the actions, facial expressions, and musculature of the Seer. This gives him insight into the future. Now how much insight or how many shadows that will create are in question. But we know that people can use the cues given off by atium-burners to change their own future actions, resulting in multiple future-shadows for the Seer to deal with. The twinborn example, then, was positing that the Sparker will be able to create a multitude of future shadows from observing the Seer, then observing the Seer's reaction to the shadow created by the Sparker's planned reaction, then... This would effectively make the Seer's power worthless. In this case, the Sparker still has some degree of benefit from his power while the Seer gets none. This is effectively the same scenario as the Sparker being a fZing/Allomantic atium twinborn: neither gets any of atium's benefits and the Sparker still gets Feruchemical zinc's.

@Sats Yeah, I think that interpretation would need Brandon to just flat-out be mean to us. @Pech Sorry, that conclusion really does seem to come out of left field, doesn't it? I was relying implicitly on all of the discussion in the thread I linked to in the OP. So to draw the reasoning for my conclusion out a bit: To expand on a somewhat opaque name, the so-called "key–lock" theory holds that metalminds are like keyholes which allow the use of skeleton keys: It's the complexity of improper keys that stops them from working, not their lack of complexity. Each metalmind, then, has some minimum key that will grant access (thus allowing Soulbearers to tap anyone else's metalminds), but allows more complex keys so long as they fit certain criteria. So a key for a specific lock can unlock only that one door, but a skeleton key that's far more simple can get to the whole floor. -Note that we do have WoB that Feruchemical aluminum allows Feruchemist A to tap another Feruchemist's metalminds: the second Feruchemist needn't be cooperative. This from one of his comments in the MAG. It's not quite as simple as that, though, I think. We also know that Hemalurgists can access the metalminds of their spikes' victims: So an Inquisitor with an hPewter spike giving him Feruchemical gold can access the goldminds of the "donor" Feruchemist. So overlaying some aspect of the Feruchemist onto a different spiritweb can get the job done. This is where I get my "the metalmind looks first for wrong signature" point: the Hemalurgist's spiritweb is obviously quite different from that of the Feruchemist, but the "shape" of his one piece of soul is all that the door cares about. Feruchemical aluminum allows Feruchemists to store/tap their "Identity". It could, potentially, allow them to store/tap different kinds of their Identity (like with Feruchemical tin or Feruchemical copper), but at the end of the day what they're doing is decreasing or increasing the magnitude of some aspect of themselves. Somehow, this allows them to "unlock" their metalminds. It seems highly unlikely that their tapping Identity is going to result in this unlocking, as it would only increase the base complexity of the lock. Therefore, we look to storing Identity as something that allows the metalmind to accept more and more complex/irregular "keys" before it says no: The skeleton keys can get more weird than usual before the metalmind rejects them. This to the point where anyone's Spiritual aspect fails to run afoul of the metalmind. I talk about the metalminds instead of the Feruchemists because the Feruchemist is out of the picture at the point we're talking about. The metalmind of a dead Feruchemist can still be tapped, so it would seem that they metalmind is where all of this decision-making is taking place. --- Okay, so that was me brain-dumping from a conversation that took place years ago, so please feel free to call me out if I was unclear/insane at any point during my so-called "explanation". ----- I agree on that this proves that others (and likely muggles, even) can access metalminds.

Just to clarify the tech levels: This. The technology level is meant to be about 1910 New York, but their electrical wires are mostly underground, and technology lags 1910 in certain areas and is ahead in certain areas (especially metallurgy). Let's say that internal combustion engines are at 1910 level, metallurgy is decades ahead, and anything involving electricity is decades behind. Also, I have no idea at all about the current state of medicine.

The blood question is a tough one. It may come down to Blood being an essence, or it could be a "nesting doll" of Cognitive aspects, like how the palace in the WoR Prologue both had its own aspect and contained the aspects of other objects within it (doors, etc.). So Shallan's blood was a distinct object that Jasnah could target, even though Shallan's own Cognitive aspect also included it. Just like an individual door in the palace is its own thing, despite also being contained within the palace's aspect.

Here's the WoB: Source:

Thanks. I suspected this as well (hence the theory that I espouse ), but it's nice to get direct confirmation. This also leads us down a few other paths, as I noted in my gloating update post on the thread in question. So far as why I asked this question in particular (if anyone cares ): You're limited to 120 characters on the personalization (so no crazy Realmatics for me), and I was leery of getting a RAFO. Also, I find this question interesting and implication-laden, and it was on my mind at the time when I was ordering the books.

UPDATE: So that's a "yes" on the theory. This also, as I said in the OP, essentially locks in ye-olde "key–lock" theory for how Feruchemical access works: It seems that having the "wrong" Identity-signature is fundamentally what stops random people from accessing metalminds, rather than simply not having the right one. It seems that metalminds first look for the wrong signature, then give up the goods if they don't find it (either because the metalmind has a weird copy of its Feruchemist's signature or because it's masked by Hemalurgy).

I bowed to temptation and ordered the TES/Defending Elysium (I quite like that story)/Firstborn 2-pack over the holidays, and I asked a question for the personalization. I feared a RAFO, but got an answer, so my thanks again to Brandon for putting up with me. Kurkistan: Could an Augor Compound Health out of a goldmind if its proper owner messed with Identity in the right way? Brandon: This is possible. So that's one more theory to put to bed.

Yeah, Space Brothers is pretty nice. I watch it on and off, but I always stop with the clear intention of going back to it.