Chaos

I reread a substantial part of Way of Kings yesterday, and I've decided that the Parshendi are not Voidbringers. It's mentioned too much that the Parshendi showed much honor. This seems very much opposed to the Voidbringers' intent. In fact, there is one mention that the Voidbringers were of hate. At least, that's what Kabsal says. (Emphasis mine) Considering that that pretty clearly refers to Odium, and the Parshendi are very much Honor, this seems clear that the two are diametrically opposed. The parshmen probably can form into Voidbringers, through some sort of manipulation of Odium, but that is separate from the Parshendi. I think the fear of Parshendi stems from the fact that they don't understand them yet. I could be wrong, but it seems right to me.

I have yet to delve into the Wheel of Time either, so you're in good company here. I'm Eric, the forum admin and the guy who spends too much time theorizing. If you ever have any questions about the cosmere, I'd be happy to answer them, as I'm sure almost everyone else here would love to!

Hey Adrienne! Glad you could make it to this neck of Brandon fandom

I might be going to the release party.

Yeah, Brandon has stated pretty unequivocally that he wouldn't be doing a prequel story with Alendi and Rashek.

Huh. Yeah, that's probably the simplest explanation for that mechanism. Good job. I'd expand upon that, Realmatically, information (or power) stored in a metalmind isn't located in the Physical Realm, but the Cognitive or Spiritual. Sure, Ruin is blind to metal, but that's Physical. Once you are moving Physical properties magically, it's now becoming the Spiritual aspect of the metal, which Ruin could then manipulate. Compared with just writing words on metal, it blinds Ruin. That's Physical. I guess he wouldn't be blind to the Spiritual part of the metal once you put Feruchemical charges on it.

That would be an excellent quote to see.

Sazed might not be mind reading. It is a possibility, but it feels more like mind reading to me. Like, "oh you now have the spike, now I can hear your prayer and give you some vague help." I don't think Sazed is taking "heavy interest in Wax." It seemed like a pretty typical, run-of-the-mill prayer. He has higher Cognitive faculties now. Just because Sazed answered doesn't mean he is taking a heavy interest. He can surely give general encouragement to a great many people at any time. Remember atium? Your mind expanded to comprehend the data. Well, Sazed is now like that, only he's in that state all the time, to a far greater extent than atium could provide. I would say that after three hundred years of practice, he could listen to many people's thoughts and answer them generally.

Since ShardCast is... mysteriously absent (it'll be up "soon"), I was thinking we could use Google+'s Hangout feature to field some cosmere questions. I'm sure that there are some people lurking on the forums who perhaps don't post simply because a lot of the cosmere info is scattered around. Maybe you don't feel "in the know" enough to post cool theories. Well! Now you have a chance to field any question you may have. Don't know what Shards are, or what the deal with Hoid is? We'll tell you all about it. In my case, I'll tell you about it in excruciating detail, because I like talking. Join me, and other people, tomorrow afternoon at 3:30pm to 5pm Mountain Time for this exciting episode of me talking a lot. Kerry said she will be joining along, and Steve from Stormblessed will be interested as well. Note that we will probably go way long, if you so desire. But, if you're still busy, I'm sure we will want to do this again. What are Hangouts? They are group video chats, limited for up to ten people. If you're on Google+ you'll just see "eric Lake is hanging out" and you can then join in. If you aren't on Google+, post here your Gmail account and I (or any of the other numerous 17th Sharders on Google+) can give you an invite. Google+ is a new social network by Google, and I think it has real promise. At the very least, these Hangouts should be really useful for more interaction. I've heard reports that anyone with a Gmail account can now join G+. Add me (Eric Lake) on G+. There isn't a corresponding 17th Shard G+ page (there is not a business version yet, but it is coming) but this should work just as well. We'll see how this goes. I don't know how popular this will be but hopefully everyone who wants in will get a chance to!

Well, Zas, you and I have sort of discussed this on and off on various theory threads, but now it is time for me to make a comprehensive reply. It should be noted that I, of course, sponsor the Principle of Intent, so this reply will probably end up being a "You're wrong, my theory is right" sort of thing... Oops. I’ll try and soften it, but hopefully you don’t take it personally For readers, I'll sum up the differences between Zas's and I's theory, though I have not written a comprehensive article on mine. (Oops) Zas separates things into Human Power, Shard Power, and Power of Creation. Shards are gateways to the Power of Creation. Shards "flavor" the Power of Creation to a distinct intent. I'm oversimplifying the theory, of course, but you can all scroll up I, however, support the idea that Shards are literal fragments of Adonalsium. They are the highest level of power. Adonalsium is the power of creation, and Shards are a portion of that power. The Shattering separated Adonalsium's power into sixteen distinct intents/powers, sort of like the sixteen distinct abilities of Allomancy. In this conception, Zas's Shard Power and Power of Creation are identical. Additionally, there is not a special classification for Human Power. Okay. Now let's discuss these. Firstly, nowhere is there any explicit distinction between Human, Shard, or Power of Creation. That's my biggest problem with this basic idea. Let's discuss the largest piece of evidence for this theory: I’m going to parse this line by line. I’m sick of using quote blocks, so I’ll just bold stuff. The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. This explicitly states that the Shards of Adonalsium are of the same power as the power of creation, so the distinction with Shard Power and Power of Creation is a false one. The only way there is such a distinction is if the Shards of Adonalsium are not all of Adonalsium. Meaning, you can have sixteen pieces of the power of creation, but that may not be every piece of Adonalsium. However, you’d be hard pressed to show there is, in fact, another piece of Adonalsium, much less a power more infinite than the Shards, like Zas suggests. The two things that are apparently of the Power of Creation: Allomancy and AonDor. I would argue that, given that Aona and Skai are dead, there is plenty of energy to make up the Dor. What the makeup of AonDor is exactly is another story. There’s a bunch of energy to go around without inventing a higher level of power. In fact, I would argue that Sazed’s words about Adonalsium implies the opposite, that there is no higher power of creation. Even now, I can barely grasp the scope of all this. The events surrounding the end of the world seem even larger than the Final Empire and the people within it. I sense shards of something from long ago, a fractured presence, something spanning the void. I have delved and searched, and have only been able to come up with a single name: Adonasium. Who, or what, it was, I do not yet know. Okay, so Sazed hasn’t searched for that long, but he’s used two Shards to figure it out. You’d think if there was an ultimately infinite power higher than his own Shards, he’d find it, like a massive bronzepulse. Instead, Adonalsium is a mysterious thing. Sazed has two pieces of the story, but he’s missing fourteen. Plus, it’s a fractured presence, as you’d expect when you chop Adonalsium into sixteen Shards. Considering that, in Zas’s conception, the Power of Creation is directly related to Allomancy, you’d think Sazed would figure it out, as if it was a huge, blasting neon light. “Look, infinite power!” The fact that he didn’t is very telling. Already, I feel this theory is mortally wounded. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. Look at the first two sentences. It’s hard to deny that Brandon is equating Shard with the power of creation. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms. There we have it. The real distinctions are in Realmatic interactions. What is specific to Scadrial are Ruin and Preservation. These two things combined are what create the Metallic Arts. I feel that Human Power, Shard Power, and Power of Creation are fictious categories. I do not feel that we should use fictious categories on a theoretical basis. If they were real categories, they would have vast influences. Instead, things are categorized by Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual Realms. These absolutely have far reaching consequences. Whatever Brandon meant by “Realmatic interaction,” we can only guess, but it’s much more fundamental than Zas’s triad of categories. Indeed, the Three Parts of Magic theory states that every magic system has three elements. I would go further (as the commentors in that theory already have) and say that everything has a Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual aspect. Humans certainly do. Rocks, or goblets, have weaker Cognitive aspects, but they are still there. Another Realmatic theory involves the idea that Shard power creates sentience. Why is that fact problematic for the Power of Creation theory? Well, because sentience is neither in Human Power, nor Shard Power. They are a weird hybrid. In Zas’s theory, this is an ambiguity, but in Realmatics, we call it the Cognitive Realm and call it a day. Does there need to be a distinction between Human and Shard? I don’t think so. Ruin built humans in the shape they had seen before. As such, creating humans is doable from Shards. Sure, there are Realmatic considerations as well as a Shard’s intent which causes diversity between planets, but humans have a Physical aspect (duh), a Cognitive aspect, and a Spiritual aspect with the fragments of Preservation and Ruin in someone. Humanity, then, is neither “Human” nor “Shard” power. The distinction between the two are not useful. “But wait!” I hear you say, “what about Feruchemy? Surely that is a Human power.” Yes, but that can just as easily be described from a Principle of Intent background. Feruchemy works within Physical attributes because the Shard’s intents have a “balance,” and thus, the Realmatic interaction should then be a balance with Spiritual aspects. What’s left to use? Physical attributes. You could say that I’m inserting a Shard’s intent into the words Brandon said here, and you would be right. But he said “the Realmatic interactions Scadrial allows for.” It’s hard to make a bigger distinction between planets than the Shards on a given world, and their intent. Moving on. Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. Not much to say here. Zas calls this Shard Power, but I’m not sure the category is useful. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.) Here we have a reference to the mists and power of creation as separate. But, of course, the mists are a part of the power of creation. So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak--though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that--using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself--to fuel Allomancy. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that--using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself--to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive. Tons to talk about here. Zas says: Okay. Now we’re getting into deep stuff here, and core of the conflict. Earlier from the paragraphs I’m dissecting, Brandon said: Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the metallic arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do. To which Zas realized: Back up to the dissection: So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak Okay, they aren’t using Preservation’s body as a fuel. But look at the context of what is said. Brandon gives an example of “not using Preservation’s body as a fuel” to “directly using Preservation’s body as a fuel”. In context, of course Allomancers aren’t using Preservation’s body as a fuel: they are using the metals as a gateway to access the power of creation. And in my conception (and Sazed’s, it should be noted), that is Preservation. This is quite different from mist-burning. The “burning” is actually “holy crap Preservation power ow ow.” Before, metals had to do with the Realmatics of Scadrial, in that they were a focus for Ruin and Preservation. They provided discrete powers. However, Preservation-burning is like this: When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that--using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself--to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive. So, whereas burning metals is a perfectly easy way of shoving energy through a “very small, fragile hose,” mist burning has much more pressure. It’s inefficient by comparison. If this were a heat engine and we were in physics, there would be excess “heat”. Mist burning is “expensive” in that it is harming the Physical aspect of the host. It’s expensive because normally, when Shards do this, it is picking up a new host. Mist burning is cheating. We never get Vin’s viewpoint of when she was fueling Elend’s metals. Using Realmatic considerations, we’re breaking the need for that Physical focus. That’s ludicrously expensive, in terms of the cosmere, just as creating a Cognitive element to humanity was expensive to Preservation. Compared to doing it the normal way, of course a god wouldn’t want to, unless they could avoid it. Ultimately, Spiritual power goes a long way. That Cognitive power that Preservation made? It was a small effect, compared to the vastness of a Shard. I’d imagine things go like Spiritual -> Cognitive -> Physical, in order of “energy.” Creating Cognitive power is harder than Physical power. When people do Allomancy the proper way, it’s a speck in a vast pile of Preservation’s power. A little bit, manipulating the Physical Realm? Who cares? (And, if what I suspect is true, that power that is burned as Allomancy regenerates, as the Well of Ascension and atium does) And besides, there are far too many instances of saying “Allomancy is fueled by Preservation” to say that Allomancy is using a power external to Preservation. To wit, MB3 annotations chapter 38: In fact, that annotation fully describes how it works: So there you have it. It does not seem that Allomancy is fueled by a separate power of creation. Moving on. Zas’s quotes. Yes, I do believe there is a net limit to the power Shards have access to. Zas says this is Shard Power. Sure. However, at the same time, Ruin was never omniscient or all-powerful. I believe Ruin’s inability to do so was limited by the lack of atium and Preservation was, by default, pushing back at Ruin’s force. In addition, there must surely be a Cognitive limit to what Shards can do. Even Sazed, as evidenced by Alloy of Law, cannot speak to Wax in a large scale. He needs the mists to be able to influence things easier. Why? Well, obviously only so much can be done with the mind controlling a Shard. So really, you can have an effectively limitless Spiritual aspect to a Shard but still not get a infinite power, because as much as one’s mind is expanded by a Shard, there are still Cognitive limits. [[it’s like flaring a metal. Eventually, you hit a limit. You know, that Shard/Allomancy analogy is pretty good. Just like Allomancy, you can only exert so much of your Cognitive “will.” This could be why flaring has a limit as well. But I’m digressing.]] Indeed, Mistborn 3 Annotation 55 says: So, in review, I think it is clear that the distinction between human and Shard power is not a useful one. It’s ambiguous. Consider Hemalurgy’s ability to create koloss and kandra. In the Ars Arcanum, those four Hemalurgic powers are “human” powers. But, as MB3 annotation 39 says, these are parts of Preservation’s power. Granted, that Ars Arcanum is in world, and therefore not entirely accurate, but at the same time I’m hard pressed to find an instance where a human/Shard power distinction is actually important. I’ve discussed Feruchemy, and how that can be explained in a more illuminating way using the Principle of Intent. The one you like to make is Breath. Zas, you’ve mentioned a couple of times about how Breath are human power, rather than the Divine Breath of the Returned. I’ve said that Breath are simply like the pieces of Ruin and Preservation inside people on Scadrial, or, specifically, make up the pieces of their souls. You’ve said that it’s an effect of Endowment on humanity, rather than Ruin and Preservation giving people that power. (The example used is if, say, Endowment went to Scadrial, they would start to get Breath) Well, I’m just not sure there is a big enough distinction. Practically speaking, people on Scadrial have souls that are pieces of their Shards. Breaths are very much like this for people on Nalthis. At the end of the day, people on Nalthis could get their Breath the same way people on Scadrial get their souls: through some mysterious interaction via breeding. The mechanism feels very much the same, so using Breath as a big distiction isn’t too convincing to me for this theory. So there isn’t really a Human/Shard power separation. The evidence doesn’t support it. And a power of creation separate from the entirety of the sixteen Shards is unverified by even our most powerful of viewpoint characters (Sazed). I would argue that such a thing does not exist. Instead, consider the idea that Shards are... Shards of Adonalsium. Pieces of the power of creation. That’s kind of what you’d expect them to be, with names like that. Of course they are pieces of the power of creation. Is there a possibility there is a piece of Adonalsium that are not Shards (and not Shard derivatives, like Splinters and Slivers)? I suppose there is. But as I am writing this, I do not find that to be a likely possibility. As always, I could be wrong, but hopefully, my logic works for you.

Brandon said Hemalurgy does exist, but naturally, it's very hard to figure out. Unrelated to that, I think I may have answered my own inconsistency with, at least, the reason why Sazed can speak to Wax. In MB3 annotations, 64: So there you have it, Wax is faithful and that makes it easier for Sazed to influence him. Still doesn't explain the mind reading, though. Perhaps, due to Realmatic considerations, Sazed can't forcibly read your mind, but if you do it willingly, as one in prayer may do, he could.

Done.

Yes, that was the quote in there. I should've made that clearer. The kandra could, I suppose, exist as True Bodies, but I doubt Sazed would approve of a kandra wearing another person's body, and certainly not the idea that kandras can take a human life. That aspect of the First Contract would appeal to Sazed very much, I'd imagine.

That's an interesting thought. I do believe the quote however says that it is easier for Ruin to fuel Allomancy when given through a spike, not that he can actually charge a spike: Of course, if they can fuel Feruchemy, I wonder if that means they could charge a metalmind. Let me check the Brandonothology. Indeed, you are right. I had forgotten that.

I don't have a quote on me, but I believe the kandra get some of their memories back, but some things are hazy. EDIT: I find the quote. Man, the Brandonothology is great.

Okay, I got a good laugh out of the name "Augustin Tekiel." This is only funny if you are a part of the Mistborn RP, though. It's set a century before MB1, and there's a Great House named Deveaux. It's current lord is Augustin Deveaux, but in the events of the RP a Deveaux married a Tekiel. Actually, Adrienne, Tekiel was a prominent Great House in the events of Mistborn. It fell, but that doesn't mean there weren't plenty of relatives. I always think of Houses as corporations, so Tevidian Tekiel wouldn't have needed to sire illegitimate children. Plus, aside from Tevidian, there would be the actual Lord Tekiel who deals with house operations. It's interesting that there is still no mention of chromium or nicrosil. They must be undiscovered metals so far. We get a mention of Faceless Immortals, which must be kandra. Makes sense, considering they have the spikes to hear Sazed. Pathism is the most Sazed religion ever. But speaking of spikes, we have some things to discuss immediately. It's clear that Sazed is speaking to Wax directly. Wax doesn't totally believe that he's hearing God (which is an entertaining look at human thought, that's for sure) but we know what Sazed is doing. However, I have some questions. These spikes are almost assuredly not Hemalurgically charged. We have few pieces of evidence of non-Hemalurgic spikes enabling the Shards to hear thoughts. At least, not solely Ruin. There are a very select few instances where Preservation may be talking to people in Well of Ascension, and Kelsier (with Preservation's power) can speak to Spook without a spike. But it's still interesting, because spikes primarily enhanced Ruin's power over someone because they were Hemalurgically charged. I don't think there is any evidence right now of an uncharged spike granting Shards greater ability to influence someone's mind. Perhaps the simple act of metal piercing the skin grants some weak effect? Secondly, and much more importantly to the cosmere, is the fact that Sazed is reading Wax's thoughts. Spike or not, this did not happen in the original trilogy. Indeed, Ruin had Vin spiked much of the time and could not discern if Vin knew where the atium was or not. Ruin, by himself, cannot read minds, and I at least assumed that this held true for all Shards. But here, Sazed is reading minds. This must be a result of some interaction with Ruin and Preservation, but still. Could Preservation read minds?

There are clearly more symbols than there are Allomantic metals. But representing powers of sixteen, that is very interesting.

I may be able to find a hook/plugin to do this, but right now it isn't a default feature, which is stupid.

Hangouts, maybe! Okay guys. If any of you are on G+, you should post your real name here. I think I've figured out most of you, but there are some I can't. Let's make a big list of people on G+ so we're all on the same page. I'll edit the main page with it! I'm Eric Lake.

If you find a copy of Liar of Partinel, I would kill/bribe my way to get it. As far as I know, it's kept extremely under wraps. Ahem. Not that I kill or bribe people. Especially not at the same time. That would just be silly. Anyways, horrible first impressions aside, hi! I'm Chaos/Eric. I'm a math major, aspiring writer, Dr Pepper lover, and the self proclaimed Theorymaster, as well as the forum administrator. I'm pretty much on here way too much to be physically healthy. Good thing I have all those Breaths preventing me from getting sick! In case you couldn't tell, we're a little nerdy here. Glad you could join us!

Yeah, they had a misstep with Buzz, but they are doing a really good job here. When you try it out, you will realize how clunky Facebook truly is.

I like this line of reasoning better. EDIT: Let me add something to that. Brandon did say Nightblood sort of corrupted the Breath (or something), and I think Mad Scientist has something there. Right idea, wrong reason why. They are corrupted, not because of Nightblood's intent going against Endowment's, but because the absorption of Breath goes against Endowment's intent. You can't forcibly steal someone's Breath. It simply can't be done. Unless, of course, you have an object which needs Breath to function, and will draw Breath from anything. That's the corruption.

Okay, I was imprecise. Objects are never Splinters, the power is a Splinter. So Nightblood is not really a Splinter, but what I meant to say is that he could, in fact, hold a Splinter. The Sliver of Splinters idea is something that occurred to me when I read your initial post (they may even have a cosmere-specific name), but Nightblood still has those initial thousand Breaths in store. Brandon's said he is an Invested object, so he must still have those Breaths. To him, it acts similarly to a Shardholder, with that intent coloring everything about him. I suppose the real question is if Nightblood's BioChromatic Investiture is permanent. One would think that if Nightblood could be destroyed, Vasher would have done it. Hmmm. Idea. There's nothing to say that you can't Awaken with your divine Breath. It just would be an extremely bad idea. I suppose, assuming this theory is true, that this is because those Splinters are still of Endowment, so you can use their normal magic with them. But, since you can Awaken with Splinters (the Command "my Breath become yours" is, as far as I'm concerned, the most basic Awakening, for it is the basest way to Endow. Thus, you can Awaken with Splinters), there would be a secondary intent influencing whatever you Awakened. As you say, that Splinter's intent is never changing, and I agree with that logic. You can't change a Shard's intent, so likewise, it should be extremely hard to change a Splinter's intent.