Shardcast: Cosmere Beefs

14 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

@FeatherWriter Renarin is my biggest beef. 

This isn't a Cosmere beef, but a Reckoners beef. I despise the end of Calamity. Like, David was able to go up to Calamity and just go like “yo, humans ain't all evil” and Calamity just had an existential crisis and fled? No. That doesn't make any sense. And David getting powers. Ughhhh. It could've been done so much better, but it was just kinda there at the end. It undermines how well he was able to take down Epics as just a normal dude. Don't even get me started on all the alternate reality crap. Calamity is Brandon’s worst book, in my opinion. It's so storming terrible. Like, it started off pretty okay and then just went downhill from there.

@Chaos pretty much summed up my feelings on Zane perfectly. Zane and the middle of the book just made WoA so storming boring and slow to read. The end saved it, but that's only because Brandon is amazing at ending books. 

I actually don't have very many beefs that weren't mentioned in the podcast. Also, I definitely agree with @WeiryWriter when it comes to Aonic pronunciations. Actually, this has reminded me of a beef, but it's less with the books themselves and more with the fandom in general. There are CORRECT and INCORRECT ways to pronounce things. Personally, I think it's not okay to mispronounce a name because you think the pronunciation is stupid. It'd be like if I refuse to pronounce Eric (is that how you spell it, Chaos?) as “air-ick” and pronounced it as “eh-rick.” I know I'm exaggerating, but this just really annoys me. Don't get me wrong, I think Aonic pronunciation is stupid too, but I think lots of things people do are stupid, but I can still respect their decisions and pronounce things the way they're supposed to be. 

 

You're coming close to being killed.

I sat and pronounced Eric the two ways for a solid minute.

@StrikerEZ

complete agreement with Aonic pronunciation and pronunciation in general. It’s partially because I think that pronunciation is important to worldbuilding, so for me, saying that kelsier is pronounced KEL-seer instead of Kel-see-AY (confirmed by WOB) is like saying that Nightblood is actually not sentient. It’s a fine head cannon, but it’s just not true. You can say that, and think that, your head is your own, but I wish people would understand that there is a canon. 

@Ixthos yep exactly that. You put it much better than I did. 

That was the scene that stuck out to me but I couldn’t find it so was hesitant to include it in case I was misremembering. But yeah, that’s not healthy and I sets off alarm bells in my head. 

19 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

I actually don't have very many beefs that weren't mentioned in the podcast. Also, I definitely agree with @WeiryWriter when it comes to Aonic pronunciations. Actually, this has reminded me of a beef, but it's less with the books themselves and more with the fandom in general. There are CORRECT and INCORRECT ways to pronounce things. Personally, I think it's not okay to mispronounce a name because you think the pronunciation is stupid. It'd be like if I refuse to pronounce Eric (is that how you spell it, Chaos?) as “air-ick” and pronounced it as “eh-rick.” I know I'm exaggerating, but this just really annoys me. Don't get me wrong, I think Aonic pronunciation is stupid too, but I think lots of things people do are stupid, but I can still respect their decisions and pronounce things the way they're supposed to be. 

 

This would have a lot more weight if Brandon pronounced things correctly. He doesn't, so I don't see why I should have to. He doesn't pronounce Elantris as E-layn-tris, and I'm going to say it the way he does.

Brandon has said the books don't have strict pronunciation, that you can pronounce them however you want. So in some sense you're not valid for saying "there is one correct way to pronounce things." If you have a beef there, you can go take it up with Brandon, and I am going to handily pass the buck there. E-lahn-tris forever, man, and I'm going to cite Brandon there directly. If he can say it that way, then so can I.

Your comparison with a fictional thing vs. a real thing has an important distinction: real people actually get annoyed and will stop talking to you if you pull that, whereas fictional things have no feelings. It's fine for you to have strong feelings about that, but I don't think this is a fandom where that is important, because Brandon does not think "correct" pronunciations are important. If he did, he'd get them right.

Do you say Kelsier as Kel-see-ay? 

48 minutes ago, Chaos said:

This would have a lot more weight if Brandon pronounced things correctly. He doesn't, so I don't see why I should have to. He doesn't pronounce Elantris as E-layn-tris, and I'm going to say it the way he does.

Brandon has said the books don't have strict pronunciation, that you can pronounce them however you want. So in some sense you're not valid for saying "there is one correct way to pronounce things." If you have a beef there, you can go take it up with Brandon, and I am going to handily pass the buck there. E-lahn-tris forever, man, and I'm going to cite Brandon there directly. If he can say it that way, then so can I.

Your comparison with a fictional thing vs. a real thing has an important distinction: real people actually get annoyed and will stop talking to you if you pull that, whereas fictional things have no feelings. It's fine for you to have strong feelings about that, but I don't think this is a fandom where that is important, because Brandon does not think "correct" pronunciations are important. If he did, he'd get them right.

Do you say Kelsier as Kel-see-ay? 

Yeah, I can definitely see that perspective. And I know that Brandon doesn't even pronounce things the "right way," which really makes me mad. I just want there to be one right way to pronounce a hy does there need to be all of this confusion?

Kelsier is the hardest one to remember for me because I thought the French way to pronounce it was Kel-see-air since I didn't know that French left off the last consonant like that. I have been getting better at pronouncing it the right way though.

11 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

Yeah, I can definitely see that perspective. And I know that Brandon doesn't even pronounce things the "right way," which really makes me mad. I just want there to be one right way to pronounce a hy does there need to be all of this confusion?

Kelsier is the hardest one to remember for me because I thought the French way to pronounce it was Kel-see-air since I didn't know that French left off the last consonant like that. I have been getting better at pronouncing it the right way though.

Well in that case I at least appreciate your zeal for correctness in this regard.

Still, I don't think this is really important. The whole shtick is that these books are received in translation from their native language to English (or whatever other language you are reading the book in). Different languages will pronounce names differently. So I mean, I don't really think this correctness is important.

This is the first shardcast I have listened to. It was fun. Thanks for sharing.

My beefs: I strongly dislike Spook. I dislike Hero of Ages. It ruined the trilogy for me.

I really don't like that Szeth was accepted so easily by the Kholins. It did not make any sense to me. Jasnah's POV of the prologue showed how scarred she was by Szeth killing her father and yet . . . nothing. No reaction to Szeth being on their side. The way OB wrapped up, I thought no one was going to object to  Szeth's many murders. I have a big problem with that.

The "humor" of the "witty" characters. Not funny to me. I don't want to read any more.

Wayne. I think I dislike him more than any other character.

Dalinar. I wish he had become Odium's champion.

18 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said:

I dislike Hero of Ages. It ruined the trilogy for me.

What did you not like about Hero of Ages? Rant away!

On 7/21/2018 at 0:52 AM, Krios said:

I always got the impression, that Kelsier couldn't pass to the beyond, because he took a dive in Preservations powers. Isn't there even a line, how he had given up Mare by doing this?

No it wasn't that. Leras, Ati, Vin and Rashek held a shard but all passed the beyond. The catch is that they could stay but anybody could leave if they let the beyond take them.

1. I really do not like Spook. He took up a lot of HoA. I was reading for Vin. Spook was always a side character and always uninteresting.

2. Vin committed suicide because Elend was dead. Vin giving her life for a cause I could maybe accept. Vin saying she had nothing to live for I will never believe. Vin was very young. She had a lot to live for. (I also hate Romeo and Juliet. Stupid suicidal young people.)

3. Vin was not the Hero of Ages. I will never get over that. I am a very big Vin fan. Final Empire remains one of my favorite Sanderson books.

My name is Zane. 

This was an interesting podcast to listen to.

On 7/22/2018 at 7:10 AM, Chaos said:

Well in that case I at least appreciate your zeal for correctness in this regard.

Still, I don't think this is really important. The whole shtick is that these books are received in translation from their native language to English (or whatever other language you are reading the book in). Different languages will pronounce names differently. So I mean, I don't really think this correctness is important.

Yeah, I usually go with how Kramer and Reading pronounce things in the audio books and I know that's not how everyone says it on the podcast and is not always how Brandon says it. One time it wasn't consistent in the same book. In the Way of Kings audio book the two narrators pronounce Sadeas differently, because isn't in any female POV chapters until Navani's near the end, so Reading didn't have to say it much and they weren't on the same page.

When in doubt I just go with what sounds best to me. 

It really bothers me how brass stores heat and electrum stores determination, where it should be switched. The feruchemical table would line up so nicely otherwise and this error makes it feel sloppy.

I'm shocked that nobody on the podcast or in the comments has mentioned Amaram yet. The way his character was handled in Oathbringer was awful. On a scale from off-putting to rage-inducing, his arc was a solid "Why even have motivations if they are going to totally reverse off-screen?" with an added dose of "Sure, let's melt the brain of this personally meaningful antagonist, then remove him from the series with an unfulfilling fight scene." 

Graaah! 

For the record, I was not on the Amaram hate train prior to OB. I liked his character and wanted too see where he went. Apparently he went to become the level 1 mini-boss and retconned his own life story in the process.

1 hour ago, ccstat said:

I'm shocked that nobody on the podcast or in the comments has mentioned Amaram yet. The way his character was handled in Oathbringer was awful. On a scale from off-putting to rage-inducing, his arc was a solid "Why even have motivations if they are going to totally reverse off-screen?" with an added dose of "Sure, let's melt the brain of this personally meaningful antagonist, then remove him from the series with an unfulfilling fight scene." 

Graaah! 

For the record, I was not on the Amaram hate train prior to OB. I liked his character and wanted too see where he went. Apparently he went to become the level 1 mini-boss and retconned his own life story in the process.

Didn't hate Amaram either but didn't like his turn-to-Odium development. I was liking where he was going even if he wasn't gonna be an ally really just this really hypocritical or tragic persona. 

Idk about others but this was kinda mild-issue for me since i didn't really care about Amaram for the most part and it showed us a fight sequence so i was "whatever" by it. I had more issues about other parts of Cosmere(mostly mistborn)

Those of y'all who said Renarin was your beef? My assassins will be with you shortly.

Defense of my baby aside, I have been known to toss a y'all or two around and even some all y'alls. I don't have much of the accent but you don't live in Texas your whole life without picking up the lingo. 

20 hours ago, ccstat said:

I'm shocked that nobody on the podcast or in the comments has mentioned Amaram yet. The way his character was handled in Oathbringer was awful. On a scale from off-putting to rage-inducing, his arc was a solid "Why even have motivations if they are going to totally reverse off-screen?" with an added dose of "Sure, let's melt the brain of this personally meaningful antagonist, then remove him from the series with an unfulfilling fight scene." 

Graaah! 

For the record, I was not on the Amaram hate train prior to OB. I liked his character and wanted too see where he went. Apparently he went to become the level 1 mini-boss and retconned his own life story in the process.

Yeah, I was disappointed with how he went out in Oathbringer. I was expecting more for him to do. Brandon said that Amaram was originally going to die in WoR, but then Brandon decided to kill Sadeas off in WoR instead.  

Brandon was done with Amaram in WoR. He kept him around to swap him in for Torol Sadeas'  as leader of House Sadeas for a book. Amaram didn't have much to do that was unique to him. Moash is being set up as Kaladin's personal antagonist, possibly in the contest of champions. I found Amaram more interesting as a character. 

I don't think he was working for Odium until after WoR. Ialai Sadeas mentions to Adolin and Shallan early in OB that Amaram was caught out in the Everstorm on his way to Urithiru and he needed time to rest up from it. It seems like Amaram may have had a face to face with Odium for the first time there and Odium turned him at that point. Aside from that he was influenced by Odium via the Thrill like Dalinar and so many others. Prior to getting caught in the Everstorm he was trying to return the Heralds and prepare to fight Voidbringers as a member of the Sons of Honor.

I did like his last exchange with Dalinar before he turned into a monster where he admits he can't forgive himself. He couldn't face the guilt and probably gave his pain to Odium. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/132-faqfriday-2017/#1876 From WOB #9:

Brandon Sanderson

ETA: Szeth originally died permanently in the end of Words of Radiance. I also changed my mind to let Amaram live in the scene with the poison dart. Adolin killed off Sadeas instead.

Great podcast guys as always!! My 3 biggest beefs... Kelsier, I loved him as a character in Mistborn then he died, but it felt unfinished. Then as @FeatherWriter said he comes back to life and creates another religion about himself! Like how full of yourself do you have to be to create 2 religions about you!! This is why I think Kelsier will never change and he is involved with the Ghostbloods. In the correct circumstances, he is a bad guy! A somewhat likeable one though. His treatment of Vin is proof of that. He really did care for her I feel. Shallan/Kaladin thing that is my second beef.

But don't get me wrong, I love Brandon's works. Also, no surprise, White Sand. The graphic novels were confusing as you know what. I'm so glad I read the prose novel first. Khriss comes off as spoiled in the graphic and Kenton and Khriss's interactions came off weird, because we never saw their discussions as you did in the prose.  Also minor gripe, Khriss's dresses. She's always talking about her pretty garments as some point throughout the novel and she wears 2 dresses in the graphic. But all in all, Brandon you my jam, fam. Great job guys!!

In defense of Wayne, I actually like him.  I like his humor, I like the scenes from inside his head, and I think that the going-to-the-university scene was unfairly maligned in this podcast.  It's a very important look at what makes him the person he is, and there's a ton of depth in that scene if you look below the surface of zany Wayne-y-ness.

Also, he was quite right to hate on Steris, at least at first.  Autistic or no, she was awful in the first book and only slightly better in the second.  Yes, she really hit her stride in Bands of Mourning and started becoming somebody interesting and likable, but I can't blame Wayne for not wanting her around before that point.

BTW someone (I don't remember who, and a lot of the male voices sound very similar on this one) said they were afraid Wayne's going to end up becoming a Worldhopper.  I don't think so; what I'm foreseeing as the end of his character arc, based on the way his character is developing, is him becoming the first Kandra created by Harmony.

As for my biggest Cosmere beef, I'm a bit surprised no one mentioned it or even came close: Dalinar's blind spot WRT Sadeas is just cringe-inducingly painful.  The first thing he should have done when he got back from the tower, with the possible exception of greeting Navani, is arresting Sadeas for treason and having him executed, and storm the political consequences!  Just think about how much better the next two books would have been if he'd had the good sense to do so and Adolin hadn't had to clean up the mess for him.

@Mason Wheeler I agree, I like Wayne. And Steris is ok. She's certainly not my favorite Cosmere character. Autistic or no, her character was awful for a couple of books. She was just wooden in general; I am surprised that her and Wax have worked out . I dunno if Renarin is autistic, but he is just naturally more likeable in general. Steris didn't give me that impression at first. Once we saw more of her, I started to like her. I could totally see why Wayne hated her. I'm not condoning his treatment of her though. But I could see where he was coming from. 

On 7/22/2018 at 8:53 PM, wotbibliophile said:

1. I really do not like Spook. He took up a lot of HoA. I was reading for Vin. Spook was always a side character and always uninteresting.

2. Vin committed suicide because Elend was dead. Vin giving her life for a cause I could maybe accept. Vin saying she had nothing to live for I will never believe. Vin was very young. She had a lot to live for. (I also hate Romeo and Juliet. Stupid suicidal young people.)

3. Vin was not the Hero of Ages. I will never get over that. I am a very big Vin fan. Final Empire remains one of my favorite Sanderson books.

I don't have much to say about point 1, but...

2. Vin didn't commit suicide because Elend died. It was more that with Elend's death, she was freed to be able to sacrifice herself to destroy Ruin without any regrets. 

As further evidence, look at what happened in WoA when Elend was dying; she didn't think "oh, the love of my life is gone, what's the point of even trying to save the world" - it was quite the opposite, even if she was misled by Ruin.

3. Even if she wasn't the Hero in the prophecy, let's be real - she was clearly the hero of the original Mistborn trilogy, and even Sazed acknowledged that of all the people to hold Preservation's power, she was by far the most worthy. Brandon constantly subverts expectations, and it would have fallen into extremely overused and boring tropes of prophecy in fantasy stories for her to be the Hero. Finally, everyone on Scadrial in Era 2 acknowledges her as literally one of the greatest, most selfless, and important people to ever live. Does it really matter that she doesn't have the specific title of "Hero of Ages"? 

18 hours ago, dantlee said:

2. Vin didn't commit suicide because Elend died. It was more that with Elend's death, she was freed to be able to sacrifice herself to destroy Ruin without any regrets. 

As further evidence, look at what happened in WoA when Elend was dying; she didn't think "oh, the love of my life is gone, what's the point of even trying to save the world" - it was quite the opposite, even if she was misled by Ruin.

3. Even if she wasn't the Hero in the prophecy, let's be real - she was clearly the hero of the original Mistborn trilogy, and even Sazed acknowledged that of all the people to hold Preservation's power, she was by far the most worthy. Brandon constantly subverts expectations, and it would have fallen into extremely overused and boring tropes of prophecy in fantasy stories for her to be the Hero. Finally, everyone on Scadrial in Era 2 acknowledges her as literally one of the greatest, most selfless, and important people to ever live. Does it really matter that she doesn't have the specific title of "Hero of Ages"? 

2. It came across to me that she did not see the value of her own life because Elend was dead. I wish I had the exact quote, but she says Ruin made a mistake by killing Elend. Now she has no reason to live. That is offensive to me.

3. Yes, it matters to me. I think a subversion works best when the new thing is cooler than the expected thing. Sazed is not cooler than Vin. You say overused and boring tropes, but I thought the trilogy was quite different than other fantasy stories. The storytelling was interesting enough that I would not have minded at all if Vin was the Hero of Ages. For one thing it would mean Vin lived. And Vin was a woman. Whenever there is a prophecy in fantasy it is about a man saving the day, including this time. That was disappointing to me.

To some comments above. I love Steris. I loved her from her first introduction. I was disappointed at how small her role was in the first book. She made me think of Monk (Tony Shalhoub). Very OCD and very lovable.

Quote

 

The Well of Ascension Annotations (Sept. 1, 2007)
#19Jan. 5, 2008

Brandon Sanderson

...

I wanted to provide a range of villains for this series. The Lord Ruler was one type of villain–the untouchable god, distant and mysterious. Straff is another: the downright, simple bully with too much power and not enough wisdom. Zane is our third villain–sympathetic, edgy, and possibly more dangerous than either of the two.

 

This WoB made me laugh given the complaints on the podcast. Zane was designed to be "edgy". He is the Poochie of the Cosmere.  

Zane died on the way back to his home planet. 

Zane didn't bother me as much, I saw him as necessary for Vin's growth as a person. Now, I will never take Zane seriously again. I will always think of him as Poochie. Lololololol

I enjoyed hearing all the different points of view, some I agreed with, some I didn't. 

I always found Wayne's point of views as interesting. Kind of from the view point of how he doesn't really go looking for trouble, it finds him and he just makes the best if the circumstance. But I did find the trip to say goodbye to Ranette was a little long in the tooth.

Now that you guys covered beefs, are we going to get a 'bests' podcast on your favorite moments from the Cosmere?