Steel Inquisitors better bad guys than Fused?

[Trusk'our]

Alright, let put this out here first; I know the steel inquisitors are NOT as powerful as the Fused, but I felt more suspense when reading about them in Mistborn than I felt reading about the Fused in Stormlight.

I believe that the Steel Inquisitors are a better bunch of lackies than the Fused because there are fewer of them, which makes each and every one of them feel much more important. In addition, from a meta point of view, killing off a steel inquisitor is a bigger blow to the bad guys than killing a Fused, because killing a Fused in basically meaningless, which means that the author is okay with killing Fused whilly nilly (Kaladin does it ALL THE TIME), while inquisitor deaths feel hard to achieve comparatively speaking. It makes the Fused feel like a bunch of immortal punching bags that have no fulfilling purpose than to annoy the readers, seeing as how the characters can't beat them in combat. INQUISITORS though, those guys were tough for Vin and Elend to battle, but they ultimately were able to defeat them, which made a sort of "progress", so to speak.

I suppose that this argument may just be my point of view however. What do you guys think?

[Honorless]

Agreed. Whenever the Steel Inquisitors appeared I ended up holding the book a bit away from me to read it, lol. They had such menace! I could hear boss music playing. The Fused in OB did have the effect when they first appeared though. Also, at this point there seems to be a lot of villain-of-the-week thing going on. We haven't had any Fused appear again from OB, apart from Leshwi. Both Raboniel and Lezian were one book villains, and it feels like El might be too. On the other hand, the Steel Inquisitors weren't characters we were exploring, they remained villains even after Marsh became one. The Fused are just people. They're not filling the exact same narrative role.

[Proletariat]

It's the balance of forces - the Fused are honestly so much weaker than the Knights Radiant, meanwhile most Allomancers on Scadrial are Mistings who are hunted and are small number of Mistborns in the nobility who struggle to go toe to toe with an Inquisitor. Kelsier's victory over one is seen as exceptional.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

There are such massive power swings in the cosmere it makes it really hard to put in perspective.  Then the plot armor adds a much thicker cloud to our perception after that even.  

I will say Marsh in HoA was terrifying.  If not for listening to his train of thought and him being a good guy in an ultra OP bad guy costume I definitely think he could make for one of the scariest if not the scariest bad guy out there.  But the story stopped it from happening.  

As others have said though when your good guys aren't in true danger of dying off (my opinion is that this is what made GOT so great until even it took a turn towards the immortal main characters on screen at least when they rush ordered a shortened final season).  

A massive earthquake in South America being talked about on the news behind your main characters conversation at the pub in Ireland doesn't do much to make you scared of the earthquake that could have killed hundreds of thousands.  Likewise, stories of ultra powerful villains doesn't do much when all of your characters with screen time get to escape unscathed.  

Thanos without the snap would have been just another pin for the avengers to bowl down.  When he snapped and won the war he became a legendary villain.  

That said, no hate on any cool looking villain.  I still would have liked to see even more of the final empire crew taken out by inquisitors.  We got some really awesome fights between our mistborn and our inquisitors but between the mist being ready to get breathed in at the last second every time and the most juiced up inquisitor in that world secretly fighting for the good guys it is hard even then to see them as the threat that their powerlevel should have made them.  

[HSuperLee]

I agree with most of y'all. The Fused are definitely a let down after all the hype they've been given. One of the biggest issues I have with Cosmere healing is that its really just temporary immortality until you run out of investiture. I remember initially being extremely excited in RoW when Lezian first appears and fights Kaladin by repeatedly severing his spine as Kal tries to heal, making him unable to take  breath. I had a sudden thought of, "Oh, of course, the Fused have been fighting Radiants for thousands of years, they'll have specialized strategies to get around Radiant healing, which makes them actually a threat!" Obviously that feeling didn't last long. Frankly, I think that it would be better if most of the Fused had something like Herald level fighting skills, especially considering they're of comparable age, and have most of the "canon fodder" be the insane Fused, who can be directed just enough to be a swarm of destruction, but still killed by sane and competent Radiants.  It could have been where the moment a sane Fused stepped on the battlefield, every Radiant knew it, because they fought like an army unto themself and had to be swarmed by multiple Radiants to be put down, and even then both the Radiants and readers would know it would only be a temporary solution. That would have made them truly terrifying, especially if we got to see more anti-Radiant strategies, like targeting the head and lungs, and using barbed weaponry that's harder for Stormlight healing to push out on its own and wastes the Radiant's reserves.

[Frustration]

I think rather it's a difference between Mistborn and Radiants.

Radiants can heal from anything short of death, and since Brandon is unwilling to kill them the Fused aren't able to do anything.

While Mistbron cannot heal so easily, so when Vin gets stabbed in tFE it takes her weeks to recover.

Which is why Inquisitors feel more dangerous, because, they are.

[Infinity Sliver]

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

I think rather it's a difference between Mistborn and Radiants.

Radiants can heal from anything short of death, and since Brandon is unwilling to kill them the Fused aren't able to do anything.

While Mistbron cannot heal so easily, so when Vin gets stabbed in tFE it takes her weeks to recover.

Which is why Inquisitors feel more dangerous, because, they are.

how is Brandon unwilling to kill them? We've literally seen a 3rd Ideal radiant and one up and coming radiant die. We even have the threat of just because it's their book doesnt mean they're alive. He's willing to kill them if there's a point to it.

 

9 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Alright, let put this out here first; I know the steel inquisitors are NOT as powerful as the Fused, but I felt more suspense when reading about them in Mistborn than I felt reading about the Fused in Stormlight.

I believe that the Steel Inquisitors are a better bunch of lackies than the Fused because there are fewer of them, which makes each and every one of them feel much more important. In addition, from a meta point of view, killing off a steel inquisitor is a bigger blow to the bad guys than killing a Fused, because killing a Fused in basically meaningless, which means that the author is okay with killing Fused whilly nilly (Kaladin does it ALL THE TIME), while inquisitor deaths feel hard to achieve comparatively speaking. It makes the Fused feel like a bunch of immortal punching bags that have no fulfilling purpose than to annoy the readers, seeing as how the characters can't beat them in combat. INQUISITORS though, those guys were tough for Vin and Elend to battle, but they ultimately were able to defeat them, which made a sort of "progress", so to speak.

I suppose that this argument may just be my point of view however. What do you guys think?

I see your point. I just think it's because there's much more balance in the SA world. plus we never delve into them as actual characters like we do with Leshwi and Raboniel. Its like how i felt about Hoid before ROW epilogue...ROW entirely actually.

[Frustration]

33 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

how is Brandon unwilling to kill them? We've literally seen a 3rd Ideal radiant and one up and coming radiant die. We even have the threat of just because it's their book doesnt mean they're alive. He's willing to kill them if there's a point to it.

When has Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, or Adolin actually been in danger, real danger?

Now Vin never really was either, but she could be wounded, and it had consequences.

[Infinity Sliver]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

When has Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, or Adolin actually been in danger, real danger?

Now Vin never really was either, but she could be wounded, and it had consequences.

first off,why is Adolin included in this?

Why is this a debate? This is part of their power set,as long as they have stormlight,they can heal,plus there's the edgedancers and Truthwatchers for extra healing,this is the powerset the spren chose to emulate because it was an ongoing war,which makes sense. Mistborn are different.

And again,we've seen radiants die,they dont have to be main characters. And we've seen Brandon kill radiants for the story,thats my point

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

first off,why is Adolin included in this?

Because it's part of an ongoing trend of unbreakable plot armor.

4 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

Why is this a debate? This is part of their power set,as long as they have stormlight,they can heal,plus there's the edgedancers and Truthwatchers for extra healing,this is the powerset the spren chose to emulate because it was an ongoing war,which makes sense. Mistborn are different.

And that makes for some really low stakes.

5 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

And again,we've seen radiants die,they dont have to be main characters. And we've seen Brandon kill radiants for the story,thats my point

1. None of them are main characters
2. Who killed them? The Fused, or Moash?

[Infinity Sliver]

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Because it's part of an ongoing trend of unbreakable plot armor.

how?

 

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And that makes for some really low stakes

how? 

 

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

 

1. None of them are main characters
2. Who killed them? The Fused, or Moash?

1. Cause they're main characters? this literally happens in every fantasy book

2. So the windrunner spren that was looking for a replacement in ROW,you think Moash killed him?

 

Anyway,this is veering from the topic of this post so im backing off

[Frustration]

Just now, Infinitysliver said:

how?

1 minute ago, Infinitysliver said:

how? 

If there is no danger there are no stakes. A risk isn't a risk if you can't lose.

2 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

1. Cause they're main characters? this literally happens in every fantasy book

And that's why almost no fantasy books actually have good villains.

2 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

2. So the windrunner spren that was looking for a replacement in ROW,you think Moash killed him?

Show don't tell.

If we are told someone killed them, that does nothing if all we see is that same person being treated like a child.

3 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

Anyway,this is veering from the topic of this post so im backing off

It's the reason why Inquisitors are better than the Fused, not a lot better, but better.

And it's entirely the fact that Mistborn can be wounded for more than three seconds, If Radiants could them they would likely be a lot closer.

[StanLemon]

I agree with Frustration on this. Radiants, especially the main characters rarely feel like they are in any kind of real danger. Honestly, I can't even understand how the Desolations were as bad as they were. Despite the Fuzed claims that they are sooooo much more skilled in their Surges, they aren't very impressive or even shown to be effective for the most part. So far they've just been one trick ponies. Radiants are just straight up more powerful and versatile than the Fuzed. Which is one of the reasons that they fail at being intimidating villains. 

[Trusk'our]

On 11/11/2021 at 2:35 PM, HSuperLee said:

I agree with most of y'all. The Fused are definitely a let down after all the hype they've been given. One of the biggest issues I have with Cosmere healing is that its really just temporary immortality until you run out of investiture. I remember initially being extremely excited in RoW when Lezian first appears and fights Kaladin by repeatedly severing his spine as Kal tries to heal, making him unable to take  breath. I had a sudden thought of, "Oh, of course, the Fused have been fighting Radiants for thousands of years, they'll have specialized strategies to get around Radiant healing, which makes them actually a threat!" Obviously that feeling didn't last long. Frankly, I think that it would be better if most of the Fused had something like Herald level fighting skills, especially considering they're of comparable age, and have most of the "canon fodder" be the insane Fused, who can be directed just enough to be a swarm of destruction, but still killed by sane and competent Radiants.  It could have been where the moment a sane Fused stepped on the battlefield, every Radiant knew it, because they fought like an army unto themself and had to be swarmed by multiple Radiants to be put down, and even then both the Radiants and readers would know it would only be a temporary solution. That would have made them truly terrifying, especially if we got to see more anti-Radiant strategies, like targeting the head and lungs, and using barbed weaponry that's harder for Stormlight healing to push out on its own and wastes the Radiant's reserves.

This guy. He's got the best idea yet of how the Fused should be handled in the Stormlight Archive series. 

[FictionSpren]

I feel like with the addition of Anti-light into Stormlight Archive the steaks will get higher. I still think inquisitors are 100% the better villain and even Hemalurgy to an extent (With bad guys still using it) but with Anti-investiture spren and fused are immediately more vulnerable. I think that El might be a little higher steaks, having metal embedded into him is also super cool and possibly aluminium (Which raises the question is it invariability to anit-light or investiture?).

There's also the aspect that Fused don't run out of Voidlight apart from to heal, making them harder to kill than radiants, but generally weaker. They might be a bit more fun with Fused (Specifically Heavenly ones) using more active lashings, or if we get higher level powers from them. I'd be excited to see a Bondsmith level Fused fight Kaladin or whoever Mr Nine Shadows is. But I'm really dreading Odium Champion being someone who is one book, or underwhelming.

Plot twist, What If Marsh is Odium's champion? That would be sick. Inquisitor Vs Knight radiant Four books sooner than anticipated.

At the moment Hemalurgy in general is cooler than The fused and their Voildlight surgebinding but I think back half might have some more potential with higher power levels and anti investiture.

[+robardin]

The Fused are "immortal punching bags?" LOL. I give you rep for that line alone!

Firstly, they DO kill Radiants - though you are right, we have not seen that happen to a POV or "central" Radiant yet. But as others have noted already, that has something to do with the nature of epic fantasy storytelling...

Still, at the beginning of WoR Kaladin reflects on how he falls apart at reports of Windrunner losses (deaths), and of course Yunfah the honorspren "free agent" became so because the Radiant he'd been bonded to before got killed. And it's clear that Sigzil was about to get killed, but was spared in respect in reciprocation for Kaladin's gesture of respect/mercy to a Heavenly One earlier in the same fight. So it's happening. (Though the "mutual respect" thing going on with them and the Windrunners unnerved Dalinar, because war isn't a game.)

In terms of being a visible, on-screen threat, we haven't seen the Fused "in action" as much because like Shardbearers, they "can't hold ground", which was their primary goal upon first being awakened by the Everstorm - taking ground.

They are really meant to be Radiant Killers, or Special Ops types of forces (like the one sent to get the King's Drop at Thaylen Fields). Or more precisely, the "gods" to lead the singers against humans in the way that the Heralds were supposed to rally the humans in a Desolation.

When we do see them in action, they are impressive: we saw Leshwi and two or three other Heavenly Ones easily take out not one but TWO full Shardbearers in Graves and Moash. After catching them by surprise, true, but that was part of the plan.

And the same group of flying Fused later casually terrorized the Wall Guard at Kholinar in Oathbringer, where Kaladin was the only one ever to have taken one of them down (because he was familiar with Lashings and could summon a Shardknife). Despite being so much more powerful than the city's defenders, though, they couldn't conquer the city by themselves, nor were they meant to - only to soften up the human resistance so the ground invasion force of singers (and Moash) could take the city more easily.

Finally, the Fused are only now approaching full strength in RoW - many "brands" had not even had any (sane) ones awaken even by the battle at Thaylen Fields.

(And that's another thing: however many immortal Fused there are, an ever-shrinking proportion of them are actually functional. They've "come back" too many times.)

In terms of comparing a Fused to an Inquisitor of the Final Empire (a "stock" version, not a later, Ruin-enhanced Super-Marsh type model) as a standalone threat, consider this: a Radiant is much harder to kill than an Allomancer, even a Mistborn, and we've seen a Mistborn (Kelsier) take down an Inquisitor (Bendel). But the Fused do kill Radiants. Therefore, a Fused (at least the more combat-oriented kind) could likely take down an Inquisitor in a cage match. (Especially if those Stormight-draining daggers they have in RoW would leech away metal reserves!)

That said, you're 100% right in terms of the relative menace of the two. Fused may be more powerful, per se, but in the context of their world/storylines, Inquisitors are... Creepier. I mean, they have SPIKES DRIVEN THROUGH THEIR EYES THAT COME OUT THE BACK OF THEIR HEADS.

 

[Circumlocutions]

4 hours ago, robardin said:

 Fused may be more powerful, per se, but in the context of their world/storylines, Inquisitors are... Creepier. I mean, they have SPIKES DRIVEN THROUGH THEIR EYES THAT COME OUT THE BACK OF THEIR HEADS.

I agree with everything said.  Fused are definitely more powerful.  They would totally be an overpowered bad guy... if there wasn't overpowered good guys.  

However, to me at least, it seems Brandon is trying to portray the Fused as more humane.  His whole point seems to be that Fused aren't all bad.  Brandon seems to be raising these questions in stormlight, like who is really the bad guys.  The radiants or fused?  And so while the Fused are bad guys, they aren't made to be terrifying creatures that haunt your dreams like the inquisitors, they made to make the line between good and evil less distinct than we pretend it is.  

Edited December 6, 2021 by Brightness Windrunner

[Trusk'our]

3 hours ago, Brightness Windrunner said:

I agree with everything said.  Fused are definitely more powerful.  They would totally be an overpowered bad guy... if there wasn't overpowered good guys.  

However, to me at least, it seems Brandon is trying to portray the Fused as more humane.  His whole point seems to be that Fused aren't all bad.  Brandon seems to be raising these questions in stormlight, like who is really the bad guys.  The radiants or fused?  And so while the Fused are bad guys, they aren't made to be terrifying creatures that haunt your dreams like the inquisitors, they made to make the line between good and evil less distinct than we pretend it is.  

I suppose that's true, and the Fused do seem to fit a more humane roll than the Inquisitors, but I still think that the Inquisitors make more compelling villains, at least in their own story.

By the way, Welcome to the 17th Shard!

[Chinkoln]

I also think they lived in a much more twisted world, which helped them seem worse. Plus, I feel that Ruin has a greater changing influence on the Inquisitors than Odium does on the Fused. The Fused are open to peace, kind of ish, not really but they seem reasonable. The Inquisitors have a much harder time resisting the evil destruction of Ruin, I only know of one resisting.

Spoiler

Marsh