Did Harmony lie about Lessies death again?

[+Oltux72]

According to Harmony Lessie wished Waxillium all the best in her last moments when he met her before she went to the Beyond.

Unfortunately this cannot be true. We saw Koloss die in Secret History. They revert back to human. Hence Paalm would be turned into a mistwraith. They seem to be fairly intelligent animals, but still animals. So did Harmony tell a white lie?

[Frustration]

13 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

According to Harmony Lessie wished Waxillium all the best in her last moments when he met her before she went to the Beyond.

Unfortunately this cannot be true. We saw Koloss die in Secret History. They revert back to human. Hence Paalm would be turned into a mistwraith. They seem to be fairly intelligent animals, but still animals. So did Harmony tell a white lie?

They are only Mistwraiths when they are in the Physical because they don't connect to the Cognitive, in the CR it shouldn't matter.

[+Harrycrapper]

Yea, Mistwraiths are technically humans with some weird Cognitive blockage and altered physical forms. Era 1 Koloss are humans that are altered by the placement of spikes in specific bind points. I believe it takes 5 humans to make one Koloss, but that's mostly just to make 4 spikes and to combine the skin for the resulting Koloss when you place the spikes in the 5th human. When a Koloss dies, you will see one human Cognitive Shadow in the Cogntive realm, not 5, because the other four died whenever that Koloss was made. 

[Oversleep]

A kandra is born when a mistwraith receives spikes.

So when they die - does the kandra die or mistwraith?

Koloss were already existing sapient, sentient beings before spiked and transformed into koloss. Kandra only start existing when a mistwraith, a non-sentient being, is spiked. Does the sentient being count or the body?

In Cosmere consciousness is directly tied to Investiture (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/124-drogakrolowpl-interview/#e1817). How long people linger in Cognitive Realm after death is also linked to being Invested. Put those together and I believe it means that when a kandra dies, what goes Beyond is the kandra.

And so, Harmony would have told Wax the truth.

[+Oltux72]

9 hours ago, Oversleep said:

A kandra is born when a mistwraith receives spikes.

I am afraid that answers a factual question with an ethical or philosophical interpretation. A Kandra is a modified Mistwraith. The memories and personality reside in the body. The spirit and mind of the Mistwraith are altered, not replaced or a new one created.

9 hours ago, Oversleep said:

Koloss were already existing sapient, sentient beings before spiked and transformed into koloss. Kandra only start existing when a mistwraith, a non-sentient being, is spiked. Does the sentient being count or the body?

Even plants have a spiritual and cognitive aspect. There is just a living being.

[Raphaborn]

I'm sure Paalm both Kandra and mistwraith are dead. She didn't remove her spikes, she made herself biologically die using the kandra body control.

[Oversleep]

On 29.09.2021 at 8:40 AM, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid that answers a factual question with an ethical or philosophical interpretation

I don't see a problem here. That's the correct angle here. For example, see this: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/183-stormlight-three-update-6/#e3913

On 29.09.2021 at 8:40 AM, Oltux72 said:

The memories and personality reside in the body. The spirit and mind of the Mistwraith are altered, not replaced or a new one created.

No, in Cosmere the core of the person is not just the physical brain. Mistwraiths are uplifted when they are turned into a kandra. In essence, that's where their existence starts. A machine that would achieve sentience would also be a new being.

[+Oltux72]

13 hours ago, Oversleep said:

No, in Cosmere the core of the person is not just the physical brain. Mistwraiths are uplifted when they are turned into a kandra.

While in Cosmere a mind with sufficient Investiture can exist without a brain, there is no evidence coupling this to sentience or sapience.

• plants need two cuts from a Shardblade, as do animals
• animals and plants can do telepathy
• animals also have spren bonds
• animals can be made lifeless
• fish show soul flames

The essential point in all cases is life.

 

[Kingsdaughter613]

16 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

While in Cosmere a mind with sufficient Investiture can exist without a brain, there is no evidence coupling this to sentience or sapience.

• plants need two cuts from a Shardblade, as do animals
• animals and plants can do telepathy
• animals also have spren bonds
• animals can be made lifeless
• fish show soul flames

The essential point in all cases is life.

 

Plants have a rudimentary sentience actually… at least by the definition of “sentience is the ability to experience sensation.” Animals are definitely sentient.

So I’m not sure what your point is. Living things are sentient because they can experience sensation. Sentient does not imply sapience.

[+Oltux72]

17 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Plants have a rudimentary sentience actually… at least by the definition of “sentience is the ability to experience sensation.” Animals are definitely sentient.

Yes. Had I just written sapience this would have been clearer. My apologies.

17 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

So I’m not sure what your point is. Living things are sentient because they can experience sensation. Sentient does not imply sapience.

True. My point was that sapience is not a special category in the Cosmere. Either life or sentience is, with the difference small or just semantic. Hence a soul is associated with the living being. Hence realmatically a Kandra is a Mistwraith and vice versa. They differ in mental faculties, but the difference is not qualitative.

[mathiau]

22 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

While in Cosmere a mind with sufficient Investiture can exist without a brain, there is no evidence coupling this to sentience or sapience.

What about Sprens?

On 28/09/2021 at 4:12 PM, Oltux72 said:

According to Harmony Lessie wished Waxillium all the best in her last moments when he met her before she went to the Beyond.

Unfortunately this cannot be true. We saw Koloss die in Secret History. They revert back to human. Hence Paalm would be turned into a mistwraith. They seem to be fairly intelligent animals, but still animals. So did Harmony tell a white lie?

[RoW]

Spoiler

If this was true wouldn't Eshonai have died in Slaveform?

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

What about Sprens?

Most of them are animals and that works perfectly fine.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

[RoW]

  Hide contents

If this was true wouldn't Eshonai have died in Slaveform?

Very good question.

[+Harrycrapper]

On 9/28/2021 at 2:17 PM, Oversleep said:

A kandra is born when a mistwraith receives spikes.

So when they die - does the kandra die or mistwraith?

The Kandra is the mistwraith, they are not separate beings. Mistwraiths are physically altered humans that TLR designed with something specific missing that prevents them from being sapient without spikes. The spikes contains whatever allows them to become people, it doesn't create a new one. So when they die and show up in the Cognitive realm, they'll show up however they see themselves just like any other person. The Koloss didn't see themselves as Koloss, they saw themselves as people. Similarly, Kandra spend so much time imitating people that most in Era 2 would show up as whatever form they identify with the most. I'd say if Tensoon died, he'd show up looking like a dog. The Era 1 Kandra that never left the homeland would likely appear as the translucent forms with whatever material they preferred for a skeleton. 

[Karger]

Think of Kandra as the software that runs on the mistwraith hardware.  Koloss are human software but the hardware has been heavily modified(to the point where most of the original programing does not work).  Mistrwaiths don't normally support Kandra software and must be modified with hemalurgy to run propperly.  If you destroy the hardware of a physical being the software goes to the beyond.  It is possible to tamper with or remove the software in either case and leave the hardware behind but in the cases you are talking about the hardware is destroyed both times.  Once freed from incompatible hardware the koloss revert to their original specs. 

[Oversleep]

On 2.10.2021 at 3:56 PM, Oltux72 said:

While in Cosmere a mind with sufficient Investiture can exist without a brain, there is no evidence coupling this to sentience or sapience

"consciousness in the cosmere is directly tied to  Investiture" - Brandon Sanderson https://wob.coppermind.net/events/124-drogakrolowpl-interview/#e1817

Leave Investiture alone long enough and it starts thinking. We see this everywhere.

[+Harrycrapper]

2 hours ago, Oversleep said:

"consciousness in the cosmere is directly tied to  Investiture" - Brandon Sanderson https://wob.coppermind.net/events/124-drogakrolowpl-interview/#e1817

Leave Investiture alone long enough and it starts thinking. We see this everywhere.

Yes, Investiture can become sapient on it's own. It can also provide sapience to something that otherwise wouldn't be. But, that doesn't mean the consciousness literally is the Investiture or vice versa. There's a definite relationship between the two, but consciousness isn't Investiture and Investiture isn't consciousness. Investiture is the means by which something can become sapient. A Kandra/Mistwraith's spikes are not their mind, it's the means by which they can use their mind.

[Oversleep]

If you read the WoB I linked, you'll see that even machine that gained consciousness will have a Spiritweb.

I don't have anything else to add here, as pretty much everything was already said.

[+Oltux72]

16 hours ago, Oversleep said:

If you read the WoB I linked, you'll see that even machine that gained consciousness will have a Spiritweb.

Animals, even plants, have a spiritweb. So, yes, a mistwraith for sure has one. While that is true, how does that tell us that a Kandra has a spiritweb distinct from the Mistwraith that it is?

[Oversleep]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Animals, even plants, have a spiritweb. So, yes, a mistwraith for sure has one. While that is true, how does that tell us that a Kandra has a spiritweb distinct from the Mistwraith that it is?

It doesn't. It is changed upon receiving the spikes, as it's the case with all Hemalurgy.

[+Oltux72]

8 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

It doesn't. It is changed upon receiving the spikes, as it's the case with all Hemalurgy.

Yes. So it reverts to the old state when the spike are pulled out. And that is indeed what physical death should trigger. The body which by being spiked permits the spikes to alter the spiritweb no longer exists in a functional state.

[Oversleep]

46 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes. So it reverts to the old state when the spike are pulled out. And that is indeed what physical death should trigger. The body which by being spiked permits the spikes to alter the spiritweb no longer exists in a functional state.

Except pulling out the spikes of a kandra does not kill their consciousness - they are limited in cognitive function, but they remain the same person (as in kandra). See MeLaan in BoM. When does the personality start? Upon a mistwraith being spiked, and kandra being born.

[RedBlue]

4 hours ago, Oversleep said:

When does the personality start? Upon a mistwraith being spiked, and kandra being born.

My understanding is a mistwraith and the corresponding kandra are the same person - as you pointed out, de-spiked MeLaan was still MeLaan - the only difference is that mistwraiths have some kind of issue with their Connection to the Cognitive Realm. The spikes fix the Connection problem, which is why kandra are more aware.

I think that means the person doesn’t start when the mistwraith is spiked and becomes a kandra. The person (and the spiritweb) starts when the mistwraith is born, but they are only able to reach their potential as functional people when they are spiked. 

 

[mathiau]

43 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

My understanding is a mistwraith and the corresponding kandra are the same person - as you pointed out, de-spiked MeLaan was still MeLaan - the only difference is that mistwraiths have some kind of issue with their Connection to the Cognitive Realm. The spikes fix the Connection problem, which is why kandra are more aware.

I think that means the person doesn’t start when the mistwraith is spiked and becomes a kandra. The person (and the spiritweb) starts when the mistwraith is born, but they are only able to reach their potential as functional people when they are spiked.

[SA]

Spoiler

Exactly like a Slaveform Singer is still the same Singer.

[Elegy]

The answer to this is no, and that's because of perception. Cognitive Shadows are formed according to the self-perception of the person whose body died.  Since that one talking koloss in Hero of Ages refers to himself as "Human", it seems likely that koloss generally still perceive themselves as deformed versions of their human selves. That's the case with the dying koloss in Secret History.

We have enough kandra POVs to be certain that kandra don't see themselves as mistwraiths, but as kandra. What they appear as in the Cognitive Realm might depend on what form/body they are accustomed to by the time of death. Either way, their Cognitive abilities of interaction should not be influenced by that.