Finally! A workable body theory.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 4.10.2021 at 8:32 AM, Karger said:

Tensoon seemed fully aware(he sympathized with Koloss).  The reason TLR made the spikes is because kandra that considered themselves bound by the first contract could of course not kill humans.

They could have bought them. The Kandra were incredibly wealthy. And not stupid. So they eventually concluded that they and the Koloss were basically created by the same technology. That does not mean that they know how precisely it needs to be done.

On 4.10.2021 at 8:32 AM, Karger said:

Did he though?  As I see it the problems he developed were really always the same.  He was like a construction company that kept propping up the same rotting wooden bridge instead of knocking it down and replacing it with a steel one.  His solutions were often complex but they were never elegant and he never really learned.  In fact if I had to sum up his character it would be "he was smart but he never learned."

He was in a bind. He had not recorded the original orbit. And what if he moved the planet back and the Deepness came back a few months later and he had no more well? We do not know when he fully understood the conflict between Preservation and Ruin. In fact, did he?

On 4.10.2021 at 8:32 AM, Karger said:

I honestly think that either Harmony got rid of them all when he remade the world or that some population of them exists somewhere 300 years later.  I think they reproduce asexually so it would only take one.  I also think Saze would hesitate to extinct a population of creatures that used to be his own people.

Indeed. You may find an island that has a few left. But in general? I am afraid a hyena is as good, if not better a scavenger than a Mistwraith and they are subject to evolution. If they are outcompeted in their niche, they will die out.

[Wandering Shade]

Kelsier absolutely got a mistwraith to consume his bones, then spiked himself into said mistwraith to replace its mind with his. Then he recreated his body, scars and all, gained some feruchemical powers (but probably not all of them. At first) and went down to save the Southern Scadrians and become their god.

Quote

rxience (paraphrased)

Would a single spike be sufficient to staple a Cognitive Shadow to a mistwraith?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, that could happen.

rxience (paraphrased)

Did that happen in the past?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That's a RAFO, I'm afraid. Who are you thinking about?

rxience (paraphrased)

Kelsier of course!

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, he is somehow in the Physical Realm. And he does look like himself, doesn't he?

Berlin signing (May 14, 2019)

Now, BrandoSando doesn't outright say that Kelsier stapled his soul to a mistwraith, but he basically says it. That's how his new body looks like his original. Because Kell knows what his body should look like and Mistwraiths instinctively know how to make bodies. Combine that information and boom. Kelsier can look like himself. With a metal spike in one eye, but hey. Nobody's perfect.

I will admit, the theories yall brought up about mistwraiths having latent Feruchemical abilities are pretty sick and I like them a lot. I think that the reason Kelsier entering a Mistwraiths body might give him Feruchemy while kandra are missing it is because of the fact that he's Mistborn. He has a greater levels of innate investiture and that might "awaken" the latent Feruchemical talents within a mistwraith's body. Maybe. I will freely admit I'm kinda spitballing here.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Wandering Shade
Cleaning up extra spaces

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

10 hours ago, Wandering Shade said:

Kelsier absolutely got a mistwraith to consume his bones, then spiked himself into said mistwraith to replace its mind with his. Then he recreated his body, scars and all, gained some feruchemical powers (but probably not all of them. At first) and went down to save the Southern Scadrians and become their god.

Sometimes the correct answer is the simplest one.

10 hours ago, Wandering Shade said:

Now, BrandoSando doesn't outright say that Kelsier stapled his soul to a mistwraith, but he basically says it. That's how his new body looks like his original. Because Kell knows what his body should look like and Mistwraiths instinctively know how to make bodies. Combine that information and boom. Kelsier can look like himself. With a metal spike in one eye, but hey. Nobody's perfect.

It is a bit of a coy answer, isn't it.

10 hours ago, Wandering Shade said:

I will admit, the theories yall brought up about mistwraiths having latent Feruchemical abilities are pretty sick and I like them a lot. I think that the reason Kelsier entering a Mistwraiths body might give him Feruchemy while kandra are missing it is because of the fact that he's Mistborn. He has a greater levels of innate investiture and that might "awaken" the latent Feruchemical talents within a mistwraith's body. Maybe. I will freely admit I'm kinda spitballing here.

(emphasis added)

Or it might be that the added investiture/bond with Kelsier's shadow "heals" the blockage that TLR put in the Mistwraiths to prevent them from using Feruchemy? Or, while it may not literally reverse that blockage, the bond provides a new pathway that allows the Feruchemical abilities to be accessed again?

[Karger he/him]

14 hours ago, Wandering Shade said:

Now, BrandoSando doesn't outright say that Kelsier stapled his soul to a mistwraith, but he basically says it.

Sadly Brandon likes to troll us.  Unless he actually confirms the answer I don't think a RAFO with a wink confirms much of anything.

[KnightsOfHonor]

Reading about Kelsier getting a mistwraith to eat his bones is just cracking me up. In my mind I am picturing it like one of those skits where there is only one actor.

So, we have Kel and he is out in the middle of nowhere trying to coax this mindless mistwraith to eat his bones. Like he is this ghostly figure who has practically no effect on the physical world but he somehow has to get the mistwraith (this horrible looking creature ) to wander over to his bones, but other animals keep coming up and messing with them, so he has to keep scaring them off (but they can’t really see him) all the while keeping the mistwraith going in the right direction. And of course, it keeps getting distracted. Like a squirrel pops up and it turns to head towards it and so Kel runs over and finally gets the mistwraith going in the right direction again, but then he looks back over and a coyote is carrying off one of his bones, so he runs back over and manages (in his faint, ghostly ways) to finally spook the coyote enough that it drops the bone, then he notices a badger or something is gnawing on another one of his bones, so he has to deal with that. And by this time the mistwraith has found an old cow carcass it is eating on. And just other silly hijinks keep happening. 

All of this would be played out as this morbid comedy with a grotesque monster, a pile of bones, and a ghost no one but the mistwraith can see.
 

[cometaryorbit]

I imagine he asked Spook to feed his bones to a mistwraith, once he figured out how to make the "re-embodiment" thing work.

The only problem here is the idea that Mistwraiths are possibly extinct post-Catacendre. I don't really know why Sazed wouldn't have turned them back into Cognitive-unblocked humans anyway, given that he didn't want more people to be killed to make kandra spikes.

(But then, why didn't Sazed turn koloss back into humans? Their whole life cycle, even now, involves Hemalurgy and lots of pain with the whole skin-splitting bit. And the koloss were never allowed to develop a culture of their own... they had like two years of freedom between TLR's death and Ruin control. Unless Sazed thought the glimmerings of renewed humanity they showed were worth letting develop? Still, that seems really questionable to me. Even if he wanted to leave koloss distinct from humanity, seems like he could have removed the reduced mental capacity, skin-splitting bit, and fatal indeterminate growth, and just left them as blue extra-strong people. Unless he feared they'd eventually out-compete humanity with the disadvantages removed?)

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I imagine he asked Spook to feed his bones to a mistwraith, once he figured out how to make the "re-embodiment" thing work.

The only problem here is the idea that Mistwraiths are possibly extinct post-Catacendre. I don't really know why Sazed wouldn't have turned them back into Cognitive-unblocked humans anyway, given that he didn't want more people to be killed to make kandra spikes.

(But then, why didn't Sazed turn koloss back into humans? Their whole life cycle, even now, involves Hemalurgy and lots of pain with the whole skin-splitting bit. And the koloss were never allowed to develop a culture of their own... they had like two years of freedom between TLR's death and Ruin control. Unless Sazed thought the glimmerings of renewed humanity they showed were worth letting develop? Still, that seems really questionable to me. Even if he wanted to leave koloss distinct from humanity, seems like he could have removed the reduced mental capacity, skin-splitting bit, and fatal indeterminate growth, and just left them as blue extra-strong people. Unless he feared they'd eventually out-compete humanity with the disadvantages removed?)

I definately don't think Harmony is as gracious as his followers would have us believe.  He still uses the kandra as slaves and sadly due to being born to the first contract they have never known freedom of will to compare it to.  

I thought kelsiers bones were used by a kandra already after he had died... somewhere between his death and Tensoon becomes a legend that kandra had died.  I can't remember if we know what that kandra did with his bones but perhaps they were already fed to a mistwraith by said kandra before tensoon acquired its spikes.   

Speaking of Tensoon killing Oreseur, do we know how that happened exactly?  Could it have been a removal of blessings and then oreseur was left as said mistwraith still in possession of Kels bones?  

 

I haven't read the book in a decade and am probably way way off on my memory. 

[KnightsOfHonor]

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

 

Speaking of Tensoon killing Oreseur, do we know how that happened exactly?  Could it have been a removal of blessings and then oreseur was left as said mistwraith still in possession of Kels bones?  

 

Wait a minute. That is really dark, but that makes a lot of sense. If Tensoon just removed Oreseur spikes to “kill him” then maybe Oreseur the mistwraith is still out there (very unlikely). All kel has to do is find him, feed him his bones and between Oreseurs and kels connection to those bones, boom, new body just like the old one ready for a mind to be stapled in. Like I said, doing that to a character we already know is quite dark…. But it makes so much sense. And it also would explain why just anybody can't do whatever it is kelsier did.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

11 minutes ago, KnightsOfHonor said:

Wait a minute. That is really dark, but that makes a lot of sense. If Tensoon just removed Oreseur spikes to “kill him” then maybe Oreseur the mistwraith is still out there (very unlikely). All kel has to do is find him, feed him his bones and between Oreseurs and kels connection to those bones, boom, new body just like the old one ready for a mind to be stapled in. Like I said, doing that to a character we already know is quite dark…. But it makes so much sense. And it also would explain why just anybody can't do whatever it is kelsier did.

I know that a blessing is what gives a kandra their sentience but would the mistwraith Oreseur had been created from totally subconsciously found the bones as well?  It probably wouldn't have taken much luring by Kelsier to get it back to the bones anyways.  Look at animals in our world.  There are incredible feats of migratory birds and even fish instinctively following back certain hardwired paths.   I imagine a mistwraith has the intelligence of a salmon at least.  I am sure instinct would take a mistwraith on paths that are familiar even if it doesn't remember or know why they are familiar.  

[DiePie]

On 9/25/2021 at 8:36 PM, Karger said:

Other way around.  He wanted feruchemy so he invented south scadrain tec and used that to save the southerners.

Well we know he made the Bands of Mourning didn't he?

Edit: He could also probably have Soulforged himself to have had a Feruchemist ancestor, and got really lucky with the genetic lottery

On 1/15/2022 at 3:14 AM, Wandering Shade said:

Now, BrandoSando doesn't outright say that Kelsier stapled his soul to a mistwraith, but he basically says it.

Assuming that that isn't the case, Brandon would end up saying something too similar for me to discount other possibilities. I find it unlikely that a mistwraith could be coaxed into forming anything resembling Kelsier's body (given only his bones), though I do think with a "blessing" that consisted of a connection to Kelsier or his body in someway I think you could dramatically increase the chances of the bones aligning the right way.

I would, however, like to propose a better way of giving him a full body: A Rosharan regrowth fabrial. Just get the bones together and use them to regrow the rest. It would require getting the body to and from Roshar (or, figuring out a way to get Stormlight off of Roshar), but it's not all that difficult. And while that could just pull him back into his body, I think it's more likely Kelsier spiked himself back into it.

Edited February 4, 2022 by DiePie
forgot part

[Kandrafish]

On 2/3/2022 at 1:00 PM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I definately don't think Harmony is as gracious as his followers would have us believe.  He still uses the kandra as slaves and sadly due to being born to the first contract they have never known freedom of will to compare it to.  

Harmony didn't know a ton of true freedom either and perhaps he thinks of his own responsibilities and figures that the kandra probably appreciate having purpose by serving a God/ Shard. I would like to think that Sazed's choice comes out him thinking he is being pretty gracious and him wanting to preserve some of the life forms and information from the old world but also let it be harmonious with his new creation.

On 2/3/2022 at 1:00 PM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I thought kelsiers bones were used by a kandra already after he had died... somewhere between his death and Tensoon becomes a legend that kandra had died.  I can't remember if we know what that kandra did with his bones but perhaps they were already fed to a mistwraith by said kandra before tensoon acquired its spikes.   

Speaking of Tensoon killing Oreseur, do we know how that happened exactly?  Could it have been a removal of blessings and then oreseur was left as said mistwraith still in possession of Kels bones?  

 

I haven't read the book in a decade and am probably way way off on my memory. 

To summarize...

1 So he probably did give his bones to a mistwraith and find some way to make it lifeless-like. Then he uses identity or connection and healing (maybe) to reattach himself... And if he did use Oreseur there would be more connection to begin with, which would make it easier. 

2 He could have used breath to make himself into a lifeless and tap his way back into existence (the problem is how he gets access to other magics in time to save Southern Scadrial)

3 (this might be a bit out there) Could he have gotten a kandra to create a body and then chop off a limb then create more of their body by eating more flesh and continue chopping off bits to create a flesh golem that they could animate with feruchemy or breath and heal back into himself?

[HavingTheHasHoidAPurpose?]

On 2/4/2022 at 3:52 PM, Kandrafish said:

 

2 He could have used breath to make himself into a lifeless and tap his way back into existence (the problem is how he gets access to other magics in time to save Southern Scadrial)

Well, 2 additional options I'm not sure anyone here has mentioned:

first-No need to wait for people to start manifesting feruchemy anymore, Steel inquisitors had begun to use feruchemy spikes near the end, and many probably had F-Gold spikes. Once he was influencing Spook(The literal ruler of the entire remaining N-scadrian humans, and a religious leader to boot) It wouldn't be too hard to find a willing recipient. Its been stated by WoB that a full feruchemist and mistborn working together could make medallions with the right knowledge, so with spook(a mistborn) and various spiked ferrings, kelsier could have made many of the necessary medallions. Not to mention, alternatively, he could have gotten marsh to help(though whether he would is questionable)

If kelsier kept the right knowledge from being preservation, he could probably get working medallions within a week, and get on going to southern scadrial. Keep in mind, he probably didn't have to make the bands of mourning until later.

Also, keep in mind that after kel destroyed the pits, most worldhoppers on scadrial were stuck there(except hoid, but hes extra crafty), so he probably could have payed one for a breath in order to make a lifeless(though this would require ichor-alcohol if you wanted to use few breaths, which may be annoying to make after the world just restarted)

Edited February 17, 2022 by HavingTheHasHoidAPurpose?

[cometaryorbit]

I doubt he needed non-Scadrian magic. I think if he could find a way to "staple" his Cognitive Shadow via Hemalurgy to a mistwraith body holding his bones (making it a sort of weird kandra) that would be enough. The scars would remain, despite the mistwraith not having digested Kelsier's body, because Kelsier knows they should be there so can re-form them.

(Plus if Kelsier got Feruchemy in the process, the nature of f-Gold healing would return him to his own image of himself... But I don't think that is actually needed to explain the scars being there, and it would be a bit weird to try to heal a biologically-kandra body towards a human image. Not sure how that would work.)

On 2/17/2022 at 11:23 AM, HavingTheHasHoidAPurpose? said:

first-No need to wait for people to start manifesting feruchemy anymore, Steel inquisitors had begun to use feruchemy spikes near the end, and many probably had F-Gold spikes. Once he was influencing Spook(The literal ruler of the entire remaining N-scadrian humans, and a religious leader to boot) It wouldn't be too hard to find a willing recipient.

Good point. Feruchemical spikes from the Inquisitors could have been used to start the process.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

I would laugh out lout at all theorethists here, if it turned out that Kelsier simply were given new, good proper body by Harmony, and was sent by him to the South to save Southerners (differently, to compare how this would work).

[Wandering Shade]

On 2/22/2022 at 11:58 AM, Bzhydack said:

I would laugh out lout at all theorethists here, if it turned out that Kelsier simply were given new, good proper body by Harmony, and was sent by him to the South to save Southerners (differently, to compare how this would work).

I mean, the mistwraith body that Kell has right now (if our theories are right), could have been given to him by Harmony, but I doubt it. When they talked at the end of Secret History, Sazed made it clear that he wasn't going to give Kelsier a new body.

Paraphrased
Kelsier: "Do you think there's a way for me to get a body again"
Sazed: "Nope. Definitely not. Nada."
Kelsier: "....Liar."
 

[Duxredux he/him]

Here's a line of thought. Assuming that he is effectively a Fullborn Kandra, once he has fully stapled his Cognitive self to the Mistwraith, do we know if he absolutely needs to keep his body in it's current shape? If the shenanigans with getting his OG bones was to get a "new string", does he still need to keep it like that, or does he now have all of the advantages and disadvantages of a single spike Kandra? When we see MeLaan regain her spikes in BoM, bind points didn't seem to be important, Wayne just tossed the spikes on her. If spike placement doesn't matter, Kelsier might just have the eye spike for Steelsight and dramatic purposes. 300 years later and I guarantee Kelsier still will be dramatic whenever possible. I bring this up, because if he isn't restricted to his bones and can run around with all of the abilities of a Kandra, he totally will use that to his advantage for whatever high stakes con he has going. Basically, Kelsier could totally have been on screen and we wouldn't have known it if he (and Brandon) didn't want us to.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Duxredux
clarity

[+robardin he/him]

Well whatever it is that Kelsier has done to get himself rolling in the Physical Realm, he is still tied to Scadrial (unable to get off-world), per hints in Stormlight Archive about him sharing the Heralds' "affliction" (of being trapped to Roshar) and how being bonded to a sentient spren is why Radiants would be unable (or find it very difficult) to leave their home system, per this WoB:

And it's not using a hemalurgic spike per se that's the problem, as we have other WoBs that Marsh of the Twenty+ Spikes would be perfectly capable of worldhopping:

Quote

Questioner

Someone had asked you a question about Marsh being a worldhopper, and you mentioned that there was nothing about his Investiture that would prevent him from going off-world. Which implies that there are other people who their Investiture would prevent?

Brandon Sanderson

Kelsier. I don't count him as going off-world, despite him getting very close.

Questioner

Is there anyone living on Scadrial who that would also apply to?

Brandon Sanderson

As a default, no. I can't say 100% whether there's nobody. But as a default, that wouldn't prevent people. Not in the same way that you would have trouble getting off-world with a spren bond.

Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)

It's somewhat implied from context here that Kelsier's limitation is similar to a Radiant finding it difficult to leave Roshar with a spren bond - the spren, not the Radiant, being firmly tied to the Shardic power of which they are mini-splinters (Homor, Cultivation, even Odium for an "enlightened" one like Glys).

Meanwhile, Vasher/Zahel and other Returned don't seem to have this problem, as all the Five Scholars are known to have worldhopped, despite also basically being Cognitive Shadows.

It could have to do with the fact that Kelsier being able to permanently resist the Call of the Beyond due to having Ascended as Preservation for a while, and thus linked to being near to Preservation... Is that the "something about his Investiture" distinct from Marsh's (who at this point, has Investiture from all three of Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy) that binds him so?

Like, Marsh's Investiture is somehow "built in" to him the way Vasher's Breaths and Divine Breath are, but what keeps Kelsier hanging around is linked to Preservation at a deep enough level that he can't go unless Sazed does?

Quote

He could feel the stretching coming upon him again, coaxing him, trying to pull him toward that distant point where everyone else had gone.

He wanted to go. He hurt so much. He wanted it all to end, to go away. Everything. He just wanted it to stop.

He had felt this despair before, in the Pits of Hathsin. He didn’t have Preservation’s voice to guide him now, as he had then, but—weeping, trembling—he sank his hands into the misty expanse around him and held on. Clinging to it, refusing to go. Denying that force that called to him, promising peace and an ending.

Eventually it stilled, and the stretching sensation faded away. He had held the power of deity. The final death could not take him unless he wanted it to.

Or unless he was completely destroyed.

 

Edited April 18, 2022 by robardin

[Frustration he/him]

9 hours ago, robardin said:

*Ship*

Kelsier's other names are spoilerific

[+robardin he/him]

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

Kelsier's other names are spoilerific

Hm, ok, I slipped a bit wrt the Mistborn forum, I just removed its casual use as it wasn’t really pertinent except as context to the WoB I quoted.

thanks

[SwordNimiForPresident he/him]

I think I've said this in a previous "Kelsier's body" thread but I'll throw it out there again.

Kelsier is a Cognitive shadow, so he is Immortal in the sense that he will never fade away from the CR even without his body.

Kelsier's bones still exist in the physical realm.

Kelsier can talk to Spook, and knows the location of several Inquisitor spikes.

Wax showed us that unkeyed gold metalminds can be tapped by someone that is dead but still in the CR as long as the metalmind is touching their corpse.

Kelsier could get Spook to spike himself with F-Gold, F-Aluminum and F-Nicrosil, then make an unkeyed goldmind, then hold that goldmind against Kelsier's bones. Kelsier could then tap that goldmind and regrow his body. Kelsier would retain his scars in his regrown body because they are a part of his Identity, much like Kaladin's brand was part of his.

I'm not sure why Kel would need a Hemalurgic spike in this scenario, or how he would go about making one that is key to him given his lack of a body to spike in the first place. The only use I could see for a spike on Kel is to grant him some type of Feruchemy (probably nicrosil) so that he can make medallions.

As a Cognitive shadow, Kelsier would likely be immortal in the same sense that the Heralds or Hoid are. He would likely no longer age but would probably still be vulnerable to the destruction of his body, though he could likely easily resurrect again as long as his body isn't completely vaporized. He could probably also stash a piece of himself somewhere touching a fully loaded goldmind keyed to himself so that if he were to de destroyed he could resurrect there instead (like a checkpoint in a video game).

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

7 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

 He could probably also stash a piece of himself somewhere touching a fully loaded goldmind keyed to himself so that if he were to de destroyed he could resurrect there instead (like a checkpoint in a video game).

Dark Souls bonfire except it's a gold plate.

[SwordNimiForPresident he/him]

Just now, Halyo_Alex said:

Dark Souls bonfire except it's a gold plate.

I imagined an Egyptian sarcophagus but yea, that's the idea.

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

Just now, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I imagined an Egyptian sarcophagus but yea, that's the idea.

I guess I have Elden Ring sites of Grace on the brain, is all.