Iriali, The One, and the Long Trail

[Frustration]

11 minutes ago, Brgst13 said:

I can see this interpretation, but I interpreted this as El losing access to the rhythms upon becoming He Who Quiets.  We only have Lerian's word that El was forbidden the rhythms.  My thought was that he was given abilities from Odium that allowed the inclusion of aluminum and he lost the rhythm as a result.

Also, it is unlikely Odium would be able to grant Raboniel "personal" rhythms as the rhythms are intrinsic to Roshar.  I suppose that it is possible that Odium has restricted access to some Rhythms from all Regals and Fused, but I do not see a reason for that.

The other possibility is that Odium allowed her to hear Rhythms from another planet but again, why?

On the contrary Shards have rhythms independent of the planet

Odium's Tone wasn't a part of Roshar until the Recreance, but he always had one, is just one example

[LewsTherinTelescope]

My theory's that either it's a representation of her Identity, or relates to how she has the power to unmake that I don't think we've seen evidence of the others having, personally.

[Brgst13]

43 minutes ago, Frustration said:

On the contrary Shards have rhythms independent of the planet

Odium's Tone wasn't a part of Roshar until the Recreance, but he always had one, is just one example

Agreed, Shards have Tones.  The Rhythms, however, are a Cosmere wide phenomena that manifests on Roshar as Rhythms. Admittedly this renders my idea of other planets' rhythms less likely.

[Halyo_Alex]

3 hours ago, Brgst13 said:

The Rhythms, however, are a Cosmere wide phenomena that manifests on Roshar as Rhythms. Admittedly this renders my idea of other planets' rhythms less likely.

The Bronze Pulses are likely Rhythms derived from Preservation, especially the pulsing of the Well of Ascension itself being the Rhythm of Preservation. So, it is a cosmere wide phenomena, you just need to be given "ears" for it. Either innately, like a Listener, or as a power, like a Seeker.

[Inquisitor #5]

1 hour ago, Brgst13 said:

I interpreted this as El losing access to the rhythms upon becoming He Who Quiets.

That's fair, though why would he be without rhythms now in that case?

1 hour ago, Brgst13 said:

We only have Lerian's word that El was forbidden the rhythms.

We also have no reason to believe that he'd be lying to himself about it.

1 hour ago, Brgst13 said:

My thought was that he was given abilities from Odium that allowed the inclusion of aluminum and he lost the rhythm as a result.

Aluminium is Investiture inert, how does that work?

1 hour ago, Brgst13 said:

Also, it is unlikely Odium would be able to grant Raboniel "personal" rhythms as the rhythms are intrinsic to Roshar.  I suppose that it is possible that Odium has restricted access to some Rhythms from all Regals and Fused, but I do not see a reason for that.

Then how do you explain the bit I quoted? It's literally in Rhythm of War.

My interpretation is that the rhythms are points between the Pure Tones, which I feel also makes sense with how Odium's rhythms are described as "rhythm of X, the new counterpart to the rhythm of  Y."

Odium's rhythms being the rhythms of Roshar, but "pitched" into harmony with Odium's Tone.

Quote

Menderbug

Is the Well's pulsing a 'pure tone of Scadrial'?

Brandon Sanderson

Yup!

Miscellaneous 2020 (Nov. 30, 2020)

If my interpretation is correct, any two (or more) Pure Tones should give rise to a set of rhythms between them.

Also, Raboniel's personal rhythms could basically be a fine-tuning of the relevant senses, along the same lines as perfect pitch.

51 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Emphasis mine, so yes you're right, it may be something like that or like a fabrial cage. Either or.

Oh, I'm definitely leaning more fabrial cage of those, as I don't think the metal is Invested.

My interpretation of the fabrial stuff in Rhythm of War is that Investiture filtered through/warped by metal produces certain effects, generally consistent with allomancy (which in turn makes sense, Preservation's magic system being a variation of a fundamental interaction, rather than something new).

El's metal carapace acting as a way to modify his Surgebinding makes sense to me.

(Sidenote, I think that Rosharan fauna, and singers in particular, might count as "naturials," so the fabrial cage idea definitely has merit.)

2 hours ago, deepspace21 said:

I feel like if anything will become of the Iriali it will be at the Seventh land unless Brandon wants to be intentionally chaotic with their storyline and kill off the Iriali before they reach the seventh land to establish stakes or something.

I just lack any reason to believe that they're right about the whole Seventh Land deal.

There's no reason for me to believe that this people meandering around the cosmere would just happen to go somewhere significant the sixth time.

 

 

¤_¤

[deepspace21]

9 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I just lack any reason to believe that they're right about the whole Seventh Land deal.

 

We also lack any reason to believe that they're wrong about the seventh land. Ym states that the seventh land is where the Iriali will become one again (which kinda sounds ominous tbh) and Brandon has acknowledged that there is a story being told;

Quote

 

Koh-the-Face-Stealer

So ever since I read your various tantalizing tit-bits about the Iriali being not native to Roshar, I've been incredibly curious about this especially considering that the other humans of Roshar all originate from a different singular source, Ashyn (unless there were more migrations that I'm forgetting). Are we going to get more info on this in the near future? Is there anything, even a tiny crumb, that you could possibly drop for us now?

Brandon Sanderson

The Iriali story is one you should expect to be continued during the space age of the cosmere, not in current storylines.

Leather_Kiwi

What about characters who are interested with cosmology in current storylines? Like Dalinar who certainly wants to seek answers about the universe. Do you plan to write more of it in future novels of current series or this is a stuff for future series with defferent set of characters?

Brandon Sanderson

The further we move in the Cosmere, the more these stories will become relevant. We're moving from the world of them just being cameos into the world of them being small (but important) sub-plots. They will evolve from there.

General Reddit 2019 (May 28, 2019)

 

to me, this indicates that there is definitely something in store for the Iriali. 

Also, I recently came across a line in Chapter 36 of Oathbringer where Evi tells Dalinar that the "One" lives in the valley. I think that the conflation of the Nightwatcher/cultivation and the One might be a mix of cultural blending of the Ashyn/Rosharen and Iri cultures, possibly due to the one and cultivation coming from the same source (both being shards). I don't think the Nightwatcher is the One, just because I feel like the information we know about both entities doesn't add up.

Edited September 5, 2021 by deepspace21
I did an error and accidentally saved it.

[Inquisitor #5]

14 hours ago, deepspace21 said:

We also lack any reason to believe that they're wrong about the seventh land.

These are the beliefs of a people who are never implied to be actively cosmere aware.

While I do think that the bits about the Long Trail and the Fourth Land are mythologised versions of real things, I don't think that anything pertaining to what lies beyond the Fourth Land has to be accurate or significant, especially given how unreliable future sight is over time.

Does that make sense?

14 hours ago, deepspace21 said:

to me, this indicates that there is definitely something in store for the Iriali. 

I never meant to imply there wasn't.

I just disagree that it has to play out as the Iriali religion supposes.

The fact that they have a role to play in the space age also doesn't mean that that role will line up directly with their religion.

14 hours ago, deepspace21 said:

I don't think the Nightwatcher is the One, just because I feel like the information we know about both entities doesn't add up.

Yeah, if indeed the One was a being, it'd have to be one beyond even the greatest spren.

14 hours ago, deepspace21 said:

I recently came across a line in Chapter 36 of Oathbringer where Evi tells Dalinar that the "One" lives in the valley. I think that the conflation of the Nightwatcher/cultivation and the One might be a mix of cultural blending of the Ashyn/Rosharen and Iri cultures

There's also a passage in Rhythm of War that might be interesting to this line of reasoning:

Quote

She [Raboniel] waved to the southeast. "Cultivation hides in these mountains somewhere. She is everywhere, but she is also here. Alive, but frightened. She knows. She is not a god of people, but of creatures."

-Rhythm of War, chapter 31

If this is knowledge that existed when the Iriali got to Roshar I don't think it unlikely that Cultivation got conflated with the One. The descriptor of being everywhere is presumably an easy segue into the the idea of being all-knowing.

After all, why wouldn't an omnipresent being be all-knowing, from a human standpoint?

So that's what I think likely happened, Cultivation and the One being syncretised and/or conflated based on their percieved attributes in at least some version(s) of the Iriali religion.

The last bit being based on how Evi ends up describing the One as a distinct entity that exists, while Ym's story seems to preclude the One maintaining a distinct existence.

This implies the possibility that the religion as practiced in Iri and as practiced in Rira might not be exactly alike, similar to how Alethi, Veden and Thaylen Vorinism aren't exactly the same. Or it could just be that different people have come to their own different interpretations, without there being actual doctrinal differences.

I wouldn't be suprised if the Iriali religion, with its major focus on individual experience, isn't exactly rigid and dogmatic, so I could definitely see them being fine with personal interpretations of the faith.

 

¤_¤

[deepspace21]

4 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I just disagree that it has to play out as the Iriali religion supposes.

 

I guess there isn't necessarily evidence for that, I just noticed patterns and wanted to share what I found. I think it would be cool, but I know it will probably be entertaining in the end nontheless.

[Benkinsky]

On 30.8.2021 at 7:28 PM, deepspace21 said:

 

So from these notes, a few things seem clear to me. The seventh land will most likely be reached by the space age, and I believe the journey to the fifth land will begin at the end of Stormlight 5 or 10, or perhaps they mysteriously dissapear during the time skip between 5 and 6. (this is all speculation. I simply think these would be the best times for Brandon to signal that the Iriali are moving on to people following their story.)

Now one of the most interesting facts of the Iriali is the fact that their non human nature is a possiple mater of debate. "Depending on what is considered human" 

I think the One is a Shard, and all of the Iriali are Splinters.

This shard, who i will tentativly name curiosity for the sake of clerity, "Knew everything but expirienced nothing" Due to existing in the spiritual realm. it split its investiture into the Iriali, which is why they believe that when they die, their soul rejoins the investiture of the spiritiual realm, because their souls do. This also could explain tidereading. Since the Iriali are splinters some might retain the abiiity to see the future to a degree. 

Curiosity split all of its investiture up amoung the Iriali, allowing them to Tideread and possibly travel the in the cognative realm. Its Cognative aspect was also devided among them, leaving teh shard undetectable by other shards, such as Odium. I think the Metalic gold of the Iriali is akin to Curiosities god metal, or something related to how Curiosity's investiture manifests as a solid. the people in RIra are the result of these physical manifestations being passed on to humans, and i dont think they are part of the One.

What do you think? am I missing something, or do you think there is some other cause?

I'm super interested in the Iriali, and very happy about this thread, so first and foremost, thanks for making one.

- I've also played with the Idea of the One matching up to a shard. We've had multiple instances of beliefs on cosmere-unaware planets lining up or having parallels to Shards. The Iriali religion could be a red herring, but I personally believe that for now we can treat it as an interpretation, but not a full transformation, of the truth.

- The idea that they are all splinters is interesting. Or rather, they all *have* a splinter? More like a breath than anything else? Whatever Shard the One is, if it is one, sounds like it would produce an end-neutral magic system.

- on a connected note, if a shard split up, that would have to involve the Cognitive Realm too if the intent is to experience everything. The Spiritual Realm is distinct from both of the others, but those have enough parallels that it would be plausible to see them as existance and the SR as something beyond. So there would have to be or could be Splinters around too.

- I can't wait to find out what the other lands on the travel were. I doubt that Sel was part of them, partly because Sel is so different depending on where you are that it's hard to count it as one land, on the other because worldhopping from and to Sel is very difficult.

Quote

The seventh land will most likely be reached by the space age, and I believe the journey to the fifth land will begin at the end of Stormlight 5 or 10, or perhaps they mysteriously dissapear during the time skip between 5 and 6. (this is all speculation. I simply think these would be the best times for Brandon to signal that the Iriali are moving on to people following their story.)

- I do believe they will continue traveling, and I believe between SA 5 and 6 will be when. Sa 4 and 5 will have very little time inbetween them, but there will be a timeskip. Whatever the result at the end of SA5 will be, I think it will have signifcant changes to the status quo in Roshar, as in, the balance of Shards etc might have changed. Whether Honor is reforged, Odium is freed, Cultivation completes some kind of plan and gives up her shard, something will change, and that could a) open up Travel for the Iriali and/or b ) signify the end of the experience there. I think we won't learn about their travel in the book but in SA6, or maybe in one of the many epilogues, but won't get that much out of it apart from maybe a hint for what the Tidereaders see as the next location. Who knows, maybe it will be the Aimians that help them get on their way. Even if Cultivation isn't The One, which I doubt, her Intent as I understand it would welcome the Iriali using her Perpendiculary.

- Whatever the 7th land is, I think it's a world we don't know yet or that will change significantly until the Space Age, and that it's settlement will be an important plot.

 

- The Dragon/Human Hybrid is a very cool idea, but their "inhuman" ancestry might be something else. It could be something as simple as "are Scadrian Humans the same as Rosharan/Ashynite Humans? They were created after the image of Yolish Humans and seem more or less the same as other Humans, but they kind of aren't either". If Preservation and Ruin re-invented the human, another Shard might've done something similar when becoming/endowing the Iriali.

 

alright, now for the juicy part, the list: (I'll lump planets and shards together, but thoughts on them might not be the same)

 

- Sel/Dominion, Devotion: As said before, Sel is highly unlikely to be any of the 7 lands. Whereas Roshar can fairly easily be called "a land" despite being a planet too because it's only one continent there, Sel has a lot going on on there, plus travel is very difficult.

- Scadrial/Ruin, Preservation: Honestly? Might have been. We know so little about Scadrial pre-Rasheks-Ascension. The few things we do know hint that it's not as dull as it might seem from Era 1. There is already a whole people that we only learnt about later, Southern Scadrians. There is right now some kind of entity that also appears in ancient religions and we don't know which of the two inspired the other. The Pits used to be a busy worldhopping spot, and we have no real idea for what, because for 1000 years development was pretty stagnant and Lerasium was hard to get, and Spikes dangerous. I would genuinly not be surprised if we ever hear about some kind of ancient religion that the Keepers knew about whose believers thought themselves in the 2nd land or something like that. The biggest question here is how they'd fit into Preservation and Ruin's deal if they ever lived there. Rashek's Ascension would definitely be a good "time to leave" call though.

- Nalthis/Endowment: Another good candidate for Involvement with the Iriali tbh, both the Planet and the Shard. We know basically nothing about how the rest of Nalthis looks like, and what kind of peoples live there outside of Idris/Hallandren. It's been hinted/shown that Nalthian Cosmere-travellers aren't that rare, and Endowment seems like the type to be happy to let people travel around, which makes me think there might even be multiple Perpendicularies on Nalthis. . Being Lifeless sounds like an Experience the One would want to have made, as are the heightenings. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Endowment is connected to the Iriali. Endowing the One with many lives/Endowing the Many with lives to make experiences could be something that happened long before the Manywar. The Iriali might have been founded by a Returned who set them on their track.

- Roshar/Honor/Cultivation/Odium: Cultivation theoretically ligns up with the Iriali, but we know that Roshar is N°4, so Cultivation probably was happy to welcome them, and I think would also help them travel further.

- Ashyn: Not gonna lie, Ashyn might be Land N°5. The whole Incubator thing certainly sounds like an Experience for the One to make.

- Whimsy, Mercy: not big on those being involved here. Mercy might take them in on their world because its mercyful, but I haven't got more.

- Invention: If the name was something else, I might consider a connection, but... Invention sounds like creating something new, not amassing experiences. Curiosity and Invention sadly aren't quite the same thing, though they are close.

- Valor: Interesting candidate. I can't really see Valor splintering itself (though that would certainly be valorant), I can see Valor welcoming or supporting the Iriali as brave Explorers and brave people in general.

 

[mathiau]

On 30/08/2021 at 7:28 PM, deepspace21 said:

So from these notes, a few things seem clear to me. The seventh land will most likely be reached by the space age, and I believe the journey to the fifth land will begin at the end of Stormlight 5 or 10, or perhaps they mysteriously dissapear during the time skip between 5 and 6. (this is all speculation. I simply think these would be the best times for Brandon to signal that the Iriali are moving on to people following their story.)

Note that it's actually possible the migration to the fifth land already happen and the Iriali left on Roshar are actually a remnant the original Iriali population. It's probably necessary if the seventh land is to be reached during space age, which will happen in only a few centuries while the Iriali have stayed on Roshar for millenia.

Quote

Now one of the most interesting facts of the Iriali is the fact that their non human nature is a possiple mater of debate. "Depending on what is considered human" 

It is too note that not everyone would consider Marsh or Hoid humans

On 01/09/2021 at 5:18 AM, ScadrianTank said:

I can interpret it as Adonalsium also wanted to experience death, or being closer to his creations via the vessels, so they allowed themselves to die. This read would be weird but not outside of the realm of possibility. 

confused Gunnerkrigg noise

The way Frost talked in his letter makes me think he thinks Adonalsium might have arranged their own death, or at least that he knowingly created the possibility for their death to happen

Quote

However, it seems to me that all things have been set up for a purpose

On 01/09/2021 at 6:25 PM, Halyo_Alex said:

Dang, now you've got me thinking about listener/dragon hybrids.

About that. You know how some Listeners or Listeners hybrid see/hear/taste things other people don't? Cord and Rock see sprens, the Lopen tastes colours and Eshonai hears... I actually no idea what that scream was but no one else seemed to hear it.

On 03/09/2021 at 9:37 AM, ElMonoEstupendo said:

The Long Trail would be the epic series he may (someday) complete. The Fourth Land even lines up with publication order: Sel -> Scadrial -> Nalthis -> Roshar.

The first land is almost certainly Yolen, it's likely it's the seventh too.

[twenty second of the sun]

On 9/8/2021 at 1:15 PM, mathiau said:

the Lopen tastes colours

are you sure that isn’t just

Synesthesia 

[mathiau]

4 minutes ago, twenty second of the sun said:

are you sure that isn’t just

Synesthesia 

Definitely not, I'm talking of the fact Stormlight taste different to him depending on the colour of the gemstone

[twenty second of the sun]

ah ok but could that be a weird investiture fueled synesthesia, or what i think you’re saying is that no one else is able to tell the difference between color when consuming gemstones?