How did BAM's imprisonment impact Roshar and the spren?

[drunkenbotanist]

Do we know if spren loosing their mind from being in the physical realm for too long happened before the Recreance/BAMs capture?

 

Seons don't lose their minds, cognitive shadows in bodies don't lost their minds (on small timelines, and what happens to them overtime with a slow warping of their personality seems very different)

 

Did the Spren lose connection to Roshar such that they need extra connection to someone born on Roshar to keep sane?

[+mdross81]

47 minutes ago, drunkenbotanist said:

Do we know if spren loosing their mind from being in the physical realm for too long happened before the Recreance/BAMs capture?

Seons don't lose their minds, cognitive shadows in bodies don't lost their minds (on small timelines, and what happens to them overtime with a slow warping of their personality seems very different)

Did the Spren lose connection to Roshar such that they need extra connection to someone born on Roshar to keep sane?

We don’t know.

But I’ve had the same thought that perhaps, pre-Recreance/BAM’s capture, spren could retain their minds in the physical realm. Oddly enough I’ve never mentioned it in this thread though. Here’s the other thread where I brought it up if you’re interested:

 

[Inquisitor #5]

41 minutes ago, drunkenbotanist said:

Do we know if spren loosing their mind from being in the physical realm for too long happened before the Recreance/BAMs capture?

Hmm, interesting idea.

No, we don't know, though based on how transitioning Realms doesn't have to lead to a loss of cognition (see Wyndle retaining knowledge), I'd say that at least initial loss is because of how the transition happened.

I also don't see why they'd ve saddled with two negatives (Deadeye-ness and lost cognition in the Physical), rather than one blanket negative.

47 minutes ago, drunkenbotanist said:

Seons don't lose their minds

Seons are also hecka weird, all things considered.

They apparently aren't "tethered" to their system, unlike spren and cognitive shadows, even though they're from the one place where location matters to the magic.

Their form in the Physical is the same as in the Cognitive.

So they obviously don't follow exactly the same rules as spren, for some reason.

54 minutes ago, drunkenbotanist said:

cognitive shadows in bodies don't lost their minds

Cognitive shadows seemingly can't even transition realms without something to anchor them on the other side, so it's hard to draw conclusions based on them.

57 minutes ago, drunkenbotanist said:

Did the Spren lose connection to Roshar such that they need extra connection to someone born on Roshar to keep sane?

I don't think that they could have entirely lost their Connection to Roshar, in fact I'd say that Connection is why Radiants can't worldhop (yet.)

They were definitely damaged somehow, but I don't think that's it.

Also, if that were the case, why is Design functional? Hoid doesn't exactly have the Connection of someone born on Roshar and as far as we know Nale was born on Ashyn, though I'll admit that in the latter case the whole Honor-fueled ghost thing might be muddying (creming up?) the waters a bit.

 

 

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[Psykopathic]

On 8/17/2021 at 8:49 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Hmm, interesting idea.

No, we don't know, though based on how transitioning Realms doesn't have to lead to a loss of cognition (see Wyndle retaining knowledge), I'd say that at least initial loss is because of how the transition happened.

 

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Since Wyndle is a Cultivation spren his connection to Cultivation could help him keep sapience since she is still alive. Connection could mean a great deal. 

 

Afterthought.... Odium was still alive and Ulim seemed to function great.... given he did seem to express an alternate type of transition since he was on the other planet. 

 

2nd afterthought... Isn't Maya a Cultivation spren? Like the type of Spren Adolin is helping cure of deadeye is the same type showing the most ability to maintain their memory when entering the physical realm. Possible it's not a coincidence??? 

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by Psykopathic

[Frustration]

5 hours ago, Psykopathic said:

Since Wyndle is a Cultivation spren his connection to Cultivation could help him keep sapience since she is still alive. Connection could mean a great deal. 

 

Afterthought.... Odium was still alive and Ulim seemed to function great.... given he did seem to express an alternate type of transition since he was on the other planet. 

 

2nd afterthought... Isn't Maya a Cultivation spren? Like the type of Spren Adolin is helping cure of deadeye is the same type showing the most ability to maintain their memory when entering the physical realm. Possible it's not a coincidence??? 

 

Wyndel was specifically choosen and prepared by a group called "The Ring" and that preperation likely has a lot to do with it.

[+mdross81]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

Wyndel was specifically choosen and prepared by a group called "The Ring" and that preperation likely has a lot to do with it.

There’s also the thing about Lift existing partially in the Cognitive Realm. That may have had an impact on Wyndle’s transition as well. From Edgedancer chapter 4:

Quote

LIFT wasn’t supposed to be able to touch Wyndle. The Voidbringer kept saying things like “I don’t have enough presence in this Realm, even with our bond” and “you must be stuck partially in the Cognitive.” Gibberish, basically. Because she could touch him.

[Inquisitor #5]

1 hour ago, mdross81 said:

There’s also the thing about Lift existing partially in the Cognitive Realm. That may have had an impact on Wyndle’s transition as well. From Edgedancer chapter 4:

Quote

LIFT wasn’t supposed to be able to touch Wyndle. The Voidbringer kept saying things like “I don’t have enough presence in this Realm, even with our bond” and “you must be stuck partially in the Cognitive.” Gibberish, basically. Because she could touch him.

Ehh, I don't think properties of the Radiant are going to have a major impact on their Spren.

If they did I'd expect a lot of things to be up with Design, as Hoid has shenanigans going on.

Possibly also with Nale's spren, from his nature as a Cognitive Shadow, though we've seen too little of them to be able to tell.

To me properties of the Radiant can change how they interact with their spren (like Lift) and their powers (like Lift and, per WoB, Rlain), but they can't change how their spren interact with things.

 

 

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[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Ehh, I don't think properties of the Radiant are going to have a major impact on their Spren.

Eh, I feel like if the spren's anchor to the Physical Realm is now partly in the Cognitive, it's going to have effects on the spren. Perhaps even pushing the spren a bit closer to the Cognitive, and thus maybe helping them lose their minds less, which could be what's up with Wyndle.

[Psykopathic]

But for example, if Melishi bond with Sibling is broken then he isn't a bondsmith anymore is he? Are you saying that Mishram can grant radiant powers? Wouldn't that make it a bondsmith powered by voidlight?

Edit- was responding to end of 1st page. Didn't realize I'd transitioned back somehow. Lol

Edited August 22, 2021 by Psykopathic

[Psykopathic]

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

Wyndel was specifically choosen and prepared by a group called "The Ring" and that preperation likely has a lot to do with it.

The Ring are just more Cultivation spren. A group of spren sending a spren helped them be more intelligent?

Pattern was presumably chosen by a group of crytpics and he still started as a nitwit. 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Psykopathic said:

The Ring are just more Cultivation spren. A group of spren sending a spren helped them be more intelligent?

In Edgedanncer he comments about "preperations" to keep him from forgetting everything.

1 hour ago, Psykopathic said:

Pattern was presumably chosen by a group of crytpics and he still started as a nitwit. 

He just wanted to learn more about humans

[+mdross81]

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Eh, I feel like if the spren's anchor to the Physical Realm is now partly in the Cognitive, it's going to have effects on the spren. Perhaps even pushing the spren a bit closer to the Cognitive, and thus maybe helping them lose their minds less, which could be what's up with Wyndle.

Yeah, this was my thinking as well in mentioning Lift’s straddling of the realms. As I think more about it, I’m reminded of the Song of Spren:

Quote

The spren betrayed us, it’s often felt. / Our minds are too close to their realm / That gives us our forms, but more is then / Demanded by the smartest spren, / We can’t provide what the humans lend, / Though broth are we, their meat is men."

So merely having a mind closer to the CR, as the singers do, doesn’t seem to interest the true spren who (until recent events) would generally only form Nahel bonds with humans. The Nahel bond is a melding of the souls of spren and human.

So, taking all of that into account, it would seem to suggest that it’s not simply that Lift’s mind is closer to the CR. Rather it seems there’s probably some spiritual mumbo jumbo connection to the CR going on with her, right?

p.s. @LewsTherinTelescope congrats on the promotion

Edited August 22, 2021 by mdross81

[LewsTherinTelescope]

37 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

As I think more about it, I’m reminded of the Song of Spren

Oooh, interesting, I forgot about that.

37 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

So, taking all of that into account, it would seem to suggest that it’s not simply that Lift’s mind is closer to the CR. Rather it seems there’s probably some spiritual jumbo jumbo connection to the CR going on with her, right?

To be honest, I don't even know what it would mean for a mind to be closer or further from the Cognitive Realm, lol. Like... isn't that where minds normally are??? This stuff's weird.

38 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

p.s. @LewsTherinTelescope congrats on the promotion

Thanks!

[+mdross81]

9 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

To be honest, I don't even know what it would mean for a mind to be closer or further from the Cognitive Realm, lol. Like... isn't that where minds normally are??? This stuff's weird.

Definitely weird. The only implication of it we’ve really seen is that the singers (and maybe Horneaters or other descendants of human/singer intermixing) see more of a spren’s CR appearance than humans do.

As Axindweth puts it they seemed to see “the reality of the spren, or closer to it.”

[Inquisitor #5]

4 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Eh, I feel like if the spren's anchor to the Physical Realm is now partly in the Cognitive, it's going to have effects on the spren.

I guess?

I just can't see a known mechanism making it happen.

4 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Perhaps even pushing the spren a bit closer to the Cognitive, and thus maybe helping them lose their minds less, which could be what's up with Wyndle.

I'll chalk it up to whatever preparations the Ring took.

Oh, this is interesting:

Quote

"Everything is wrong, and nothing makes sense," Wyndle continued. "Bonding to you was supposed to be more difficult than it was, I gather. Memories come to me fuzzily sometimes, but I do remember more and more. I didn't go through the trauma we all thought I'd endure. That might be because of your . . . unique circumstances. [...]"

-Edgedancer, chapter 2

Here Wyndle is prepared to guess that Lift's weirdness played a part in him not becoming nearly mindless, though he does admit just a couple paragraphs earlier that everyone who actually knew how to do this Radiant stuff is long dead.

This does lend more credence to the idea.

I still don't like it personally and I wish to know why it'd have an influence, but it isn't as implausible as I originally thought.

5 hours ago, Psykopathic said:

But for example, if Melishi bond with Sibling is broken then he isn't a bondsmith anymore is he?

This seems directed at me.

No, he's no longer a Bondsmith, but he is someone who knows how Bondsmithing works, someone familiar with the power, someone who wouldn't have to learn from scratch if he was granted such abilities from a different source.

5 hours ago, Psykopathic said:

Are you saying that Mishram can grant radiant powers?

Yes, or at least close. It's gonna depend on whether you'd count Renarin's powers as Radiant powers, basically.

I've long thought that, in general, if it goes in a Nahel bond, it goes in a gemheart, it goes in a fabrial, barring exceptions like the Stormfather not fitting in any gemheart.

I've also thought that the framework of the Nahel bond is a free-for-all, any mass of sapient Investiture that you could persuade to bond you should have a valid output, subspren, Cognitive Shadows, Seons, you name it.

Then I recently found a WoB that I'd somehow missed for years:

Quote

EHyde

As Lift's spren refers to the Nightwatcher as Mother, right...

Brandon Sanderson

He definitely calls somebody a mother. The implication in the text is that it's the Nightwatcher.

EHyde

Certainly, so I'm just going to run with that right now. So the question that I'm asking is, is surgebinding in general a melding of Honor and Odium, a la feruchemy being in some sense not directly derivative of Ruin and Preservation?

Brandon Sanderson

It is...Honor and Cultivation is what you mean?

EHyde

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

There are spren of all three Shards, and those spren can work within the bounds of the magic that has already been set up on Roshar.

EHyde

What Shard are Cryptics associated with?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

So I definitely think that bonding Mishram would do something and to me it fits perfectly if her bondmate is the Voidlight Bondsmith, just like the Stormfather's is the Stormlight Bondsmith, as well as that level of power feeling more appropriate for an Unmade than something on the level of a "standard" Radiant.

Add to this that she's known to have fiddled with Connection and provided Light and Bondsmith or Bondsmith-adjacent seems even more plausible.

5 hours ago, Psykopathic said:

Wouldn't that make it a bondsmith powered by voidlight?

Venli's a Willshaper (sometimes) powered by Voidlight, I don't see why that'd be a problem.

In RoW we even get the perspective that it's just power.

 

 

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[Psykopathic]

I see what you're saying now. That is very cool.