Nale's Potential Out

[Silverblade5 he/him]

In Oathbringer, Nale had a discussion with Szeth about following the law of the land. They determined that since the Singers were the first settlers of Roshar, that the law of the land would be the law of the Singers, and therefore, the law of Odium. Recently, at the end of Rhythm of War, Leshwi, along with Venli and several Singers and Heavenly Ones, split from the rest of the Singers and Fused and escaped. So that presents a question: Does Nale know of these events? If so, would the law that should be followed be the law of Leshwi's faction or the law of the Fused? 

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, Silverblade5 said:

In Oathbringer, Nale had a discussion with Szeth about following the law of the land. They determined that since the Singers were the first settlers of Roshar, that the law of the land would be the law of the Singers, and therefore, the law of Odium. Recently, at the end of Rhythm of War, Leshwi, along with Venli and several Singers and Heavenly Ones, split from the rest of the Singers and Fused and escaped. So that presents a question: Does Nale know of these events? If so, would the law that should be followed be the law of Leshwi's faction or the law of the Fused? 

Nale argues that Odium is in charge via right of conquest.

[Quick Ben he/him]

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

Nale argues that Odium is in charge via right of conquest.

Pretty sure thats not right.

He argues the singers were the original inhabitants so their "laws" which should be followed.

The humans are/were in charge by right of conquest not Odium. 

[Bejarden he/him]

No it’s odium 

I don’t think Lewshwi would make a difference though Taravangian ascension might since he cheated against Odium basically and would have no right of conquest

Although I don’t think that will make a difference in Nales decision 

Edited March 11, 2021 by Bejardin1250

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, Quick Ben said:

Pretty sure thats not right.

He argues the singers were the original inhabitants so their "laws" which should be followed.

The humans are/were in charge by right of conquest not Odium. 

That is a large part of his argument to Szeth,

Peasants answer to the citylord

citylord answers to a Highprince,

Highprince answers to the King

and the King answers to God.

and Odium defeated Honor and now has his position.

[Could Be Fire]

It's not a question if Nale has a logical out, I think it's a question of if he has recovered enough self-confidence and real justice to do the right thing. He's fifth ideal, he has a ton of freedom in interpretation, while he has a logical argument for why everyone should obey Odium (the one @Frustration mentioned) it's pretty clear that he's working backward. He doesn't want to fight Odium, so he comes up with a reason too (like who he came up with a lawful reason to kill surgebinders). 

 I think there's still hints of him trying, when I was checking back over OB I noticed that he directly stops Szeth from swearing to obey the law/Nale like the rest of the Skybreakers. I think he knows what he's doing is wrong, he keeps mentioning that he's worse than he was, but like the rest of the heralds doesn't really know what to about it. 

Seeing Venli and Leshwi's separatists might be helpful in reinforcing that shades of grey exist (that it's not just Odium/Singers v. Honor/Humans) but he needs to regain his empathy, not be convinced a new logical argument. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

14 hours ago, Quick Ben said:

Pretty sure thats not right.

He argues the singers were the original inhabitants so their "laws" which should be followed.

The humans are/were in charge by right of conquest not Odium. 

Nale argues both that the singers were there first before humans beat them, and so they should be listened to, as well as that while Honor was there first, Odium beat him, and so should be listened to. Yeah, it's a tad inconsistent lol.

[Bejarden he/him]

The difference might be that Shards can’t ‘own’ worlds and have rules about this

It may be a Cosmere fact that if a Shard beats you he gets what you had

In a population rules would not have been established so the singers were forced out instead of beaten in a fair contest

[RedBlue]

On 11/03/2021 at 8:39 PM, Could Be Fire said:

 

It's not a question if Nale has a logical out, I think it's a question of if he has recovered enough self-confidence and real justice to do the right thing. He's fifth ideal, he has a ton of freedom in interpretation, while he has a logical argument for why everyone should obey Odium (the one @Frustration mentioned) it's pretty clear that he's working backward. He doesn't want to fight Odium, so he comes up with a reason too (like who he came up with a lawful reason to kill surgebinders). 

 

I think you’re right about Nale not being open to actual logic. His arguments about obeying Odium/Singers all sound like post hoc justification to me.

Nale claims that he is striving for consistency. That gives him an easy out if he’s challenged over the situation with the Listeners. Does his logic not make sense? Well, that’s because he’s being consistent! It’s not that he’s abandoned his principles. He needs to keep supporting Odium’s side, because that’s what he was doing before, and he’s being consistent!

I think the only way to get Nale to switch sides at this point is to fix the Herald insanity problem itself. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

17 hours ago, RedBlue said:

I think the only way to get Nale to switch sides at this point is to fix the Herald insanity problem itself. 

Is there a point to it, though? On either side he is bound to the agreement about the duell of champions. That starting in nine days, the question looks moot to me.

On 11.3.2021 at 9:39 PM, Could Be Fire said:

 Seeing Venli and Leshwi's separatists might be helpful in reinforcing that shades of grey exist (that it's not just Odium/Singers v. Honor/Humans) but he needs to regain his empathy, not be convinced a new logical argument. 

Leshwi is a traitor. I am afraid for a Skybreaker revolutions are a problem.

[RedBlue]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Is there a point to it, though? On either side he is bound to the agreement about the duell of champions. That starting in nine days, the question looks moot to me.

Is Nale bound to that agreement? I thought that Odium could only agree on his own behalf.

If Odium loses, he has to order his armies to stand down. The Fused would have to stop fighting. I don’t think Nale considers himself or the Skybreakers to be part of Odium’s forces, so presumably they would be at a loose end. 

If Odium wins, it appears to me that Nale would get to do whatever he wants. He isn’t affiliated with Dalinar, so he’s not bound by the terms Dalinar agreed to.

If Odium pulls some loophole shenanigans and everything changes, then all bets are off. 

That’s how I interpreted it. Maybe the plot will work out in such a way that Nale’s choices wouldn’t have mattered much anyway. But I don’t think it’s an entirely moot point. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

14 hours ago, RedBlue said:

Is Nale bound to that agreement? I thought that Odium could only agree on his own behalf.

Odium rules them Hence treaties he makes are the law of the land. Nale may justify his actions by recognising the Parshendi as the original owners of Roshar, but he is bound by his own justification. He stopped killing Radiants as soon as Lift really proved that it was futile.

14 hours ago, RedBlue said:

If Odium loses, he has to order his armies to stand down. The Fused would have to stop fighting. I don’t think Nale considers himself or the Skybreakers to be part of Odium’s forces, so presumably they would be at a loose end. 

Not only that, but he recognises that the coalition shall govern the land if he loses.

14 hours ago, RedBlue said:

If Odium wins, it appears to me that Nale would get to do whatever he wants. He isn’t affiliated with Dalinar, so he’s not bound by the terms Dalinar agreed to.

He is subject to the law. If he recognises the Parshendi as the rightful owners, he must recognise their ruler's law.

14 hours ago, RedBlue said:

If Odium pulls some loophole shenanigans and everything changes, then all bets are off. 

That is the interesting case.

 

[RedBlue]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Nale may justify his actions by recognising the Parshendi as the original owners of Roshar, but he is bound by his own justification. He stopped killing Radiants as soon as Lift really proved that it was futile.

I read that scene in Edgedancer differently - I think it was less a matter of Nale seeing proof that his actions were futile, and more a matter of him having a brief moment of sort-of lucidity due to Lift speaking an Ideal near him. Like how Taln had that lucid moment at the end of Oathbringer. 

I could be wrong, of course, but if Nale is as far gone as he seems, I don’t think he is bound by his own justifications. He is driven by whatever the Herald insanity is doing to him, not by the logic he pretends is behind it.  

[Bejarden he/him]

Nale is not that crazy to need that lucidity He’s abou as crazy as Kalak who just has a little quirks

He just coudnt ignore it anymore 

There we’re Voidbringers right in front of him being awakened by the Storm

He then of course followed those afterward

 

[+Harrycrapper]

I think a more telling thing that would change Nale's stance is some of the things that Navani and Raboniel determined in their experimentation. Specifically this quote from Rhythm of War(the in world book):

Quote

"I am led to wonder, from experiences such as this, if we have been wrong. We call humans alien to Roshar, yet they have lived here for thousands of years now. Perhaps it is time to acknowledge there are no aliens or interlopers. Only cousins."

That seems like something that may convince Nale that humans and their laws are as valid as the singers at this point. 

[Bejarden he/him]

Not really his argument is that the humans took the land unjustly

just because a robber settles in doesn’t make the house his

[hskeeter]

But, does he have to uphold the law?  Seems to me the agreement is the law and must be upheld in Nale's mind.  Of course he is crazy, so unless he has a lucid moment at the right time, who knows what he might decided.

[+Harrycrapper]

4 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Not really his argument is that the humans took the land unjustly

just because a robber settles in doesn’t make the house his

Squatter's rights

[Bejarden he/him]

Well if said squatter enslaved and abused the original owners and stole their minds the case might be slightly different 

But bottom line Nale is wrong but his rational is not that crazy

[+Oltux72 he/him]

18 hours ago, RedBlue said:

I read that scene in Edgedancer differently - I think it was less a matter of Nale seeing proof that his actions were futile, and more a matter of him having a brief moment of sort-of lucidity due to Lift speaking an Ideal near him. Like how Taln had that lucid moment at the end of Oathbringer. 

Nale is a Radiant. The Highspren may be strange, but they are intelligent entities. Nale has to display at least vestiges of logic.

9 hours ago, hskeeter said:

But, does he have to uphold the law?  Seems to me the agreement is the law and must be upheld in Nale's mind.  Of course he is crazy, so unless he has a lucid moment at the right time, who knows what he might decided.

Two things. It is quite likely that he was present when that agreement was made. In fact he may have signed it. Breaking a contract is beyond what a Skybreaker can do.

Apart from that it likely depends on his exact oaths, which we do not know.  Perhaps this is the true meaning of the fifth oath of the Skybreakers. You cannot retreat to your code any more, but you are bound by the logic behind the code you are sworn to.

7 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

Squatter's rights

Those are a matter of opinion.

7 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Well if said squatter enslaved and abused the original owners and stole their minds the case might be slightly different

Maybe, and I mean that literally. I think that a Skybreaker who, for example, swore to Roman Law, would need to return enslaved prisoners of war and put down their rebellion.

[Aleph-Naught he/him]

On 3/15/2021 at 4:19 PM, Harrycrapper said:

Squatter's rights

Squatter's don't take property unjustly though--they "adversely possess" land that was abandoned, disused, underutilized, etc. through a ridiculous and convoluted legal process.

The "right of conquest", and underlying notions of "sovereignty" or "discovery" that comes with it, is also fraught with difficulties for reasons that have required entire dissertations; see, for example, John Thomas Juricek, English Claims in North America to 1660: A Study in Legal and Constitutional History, Ph.D. thesis, University of Chicago, 1970.

[+Harrycrapper]

8 minutes ago, Aleph-Naught said:

Squatter's don't take property unjustly though--they "adversely possess" land that was abandoned, disused, underutilized, etc. through a ridiculous and convoluted legal process.

The "right of conquest", and underlying notions of "sovereignty" or "discovery" that comes with it, is also fraught with difficulties for reasons that have required entire dissertations; see, for example, John Thomas Juricek, English Claims in North America to 1660: A Study in Legal and Constitutional History, Ph.D. thesis, University of Chicago, 1970.

I'll be honest, there's an argument there, but I don't personally believe it and don't want to play devil's advocate on that one. 

Though, on a different note, a convoluted legal process probably sounds like fun to Nale. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I doubt that Nale will switch sides because of Venli and Leshwi. Predicting how he will react is quite impossible given how broken his mind is, but from a storytelling-prespective, Brandon seems to want Nale as an antagonist and he hasn’t really done anything on Team Odium yet. So unless having him be on the dark side is just a way for Brandon to keep him away from Urithiru for a while, I’d say that he is unlikely to leave Odium until he has done something inportant in his service.