Theory: Odium's loophole with Dalinar

[Zapata]

1 hour ago, Waffles said:

In order for Odium to do something like choose Gavinor he would have to ensure Dalinar would be the champion (Szeth for instance would have zero issues slaying Gavinor before any possible renegotioation can take place).

Renarin's vision may have foreshadowed using him as Odium's champion against Dalinar. He has ties to Odium, he has forseen things and he might be able to take on an unexpected opponent like Szeth. And both opponents must be present at Urithiru, its likely there may no way to get Gavinor there without it being obvious who his champion may be but Renarin will very likely be present when it appears no champion is present.

The main issue with this is that the Champions will not just be fighters, but people who can sway the hearts of men. This is why Dalinar and Kaladin (presumably) were favored by Odium for the Champion role. Both existed as larger-than-life figures, as the Blackthorn and as Stormblessed. Figures who command the attention and respect of those around them, including their enemies. Of course, both are also expert fighters, but they are important beyond just their skill in battle. Szeth is unknown or hated (as the Assassin in White) by most people, and Renarin is ignored and looked down on. They do not have a presence in the hearts of men the way Dalinar and Kaladin do. So any further potential Champions would probably also be figureheads in their own right.

[hskeeter]

I am just curious why Odium would not choose a Herald as his champion.  They seem to have always been associated with him and are both legendary fighters and leaders of men.

[Zapata]

1 minute ago, hskeeter said:

I am just curious why Odium would not choose a Herald as his champion.  They seem to have always been associated with him and are both legendary fighters and leaders of men.

the only Herald to be working with Odium in this Desolation is Nale, but I don't think Nale could convince the ordinary people that the Singers are the rightful rulers of the land. No one would support him who doesn't already.

[Jn819]

On 3/9/2021 at 10:25 PM, Mensadiu said:

Also, it would be a crazy plot twist to have Adolin turned to Odium...

Crazy, yes. Obviously where he's going with Adolin is to have him fully revive Mayalaran and become her knight, possibly after Ba Ado Mishram is freed.

Edit: Also, based on foreshadowing, I expect El (the Fused who wrote the beginning chapter snippets in the last section of book 4 IIRC, the previous holder of the title Vyre/Silencer) to be Odium's champion.

 

On 3/18/2021 at 2:16 PM, Bliev said:

I assume the consequences of oathbreaking are the same, regardless of the oath? So if Dalinar doesn't show up at the appointed time in the appointed place? If he is killed before hand? If he is delayed or imprisoned? Broken oath, right?

Good point. That's probably how the majority of the book is going to go: T-Odium trying to find a way to trap Dalinar on some other battlefield, trying to kill him early, trying to conquer more land... I assume the fifth book will end with some major paradigm shift. That could be the freeing of Odium, with the next five books fighting an even more uphill battle. It could also be a further delay of a thousand years to Odium's plans (giving them breathing space), and the next five books are the (lead up and) conclusion to that millennial pause.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Jn819
Adding relevant opinion

[bmcclure7]

On 5/4/2023 at 10:42 AM, Jn819 said:

Crazy, yes. Obviously where he's going with Adolin is to have him fully revive Mayalaran and become her knight, possibly after Ba Ado Mishram is freed.

Edit: Also, based on foreshadowing, I expect El (the Fused who wrote the beginning chapter snippets in the last section of book 4 IIRC, the previous holder of the title Vyre/Silencer) to be Odium's champion.

 

Good point. That's probably how the majority of the book is going to go: T-Odium trying to find a way to trap Dalinar on some other battlefield, trying to kill him early, trying to conquer more land... I assume the fifth book will end with some major paradigm shift. That could be the freeing of Odium, with the next five books fighting an even more uphill battle. It could also be a further delay of a thousand years to Odium's plans (giving them breathing space), and the next five books are the (lead up and) conclusion to that millennial pause.

Why would el be made champion, that gains odium no advantage?

[Argenti]

On 5/4/2023 at 11:42 AM, Jn819 said:

Crazy, yes. Obviously where he's going with Adolin is to have him fully revive Mayalaran and become her knight, possibly after Ba Ado Mishram is freed.

 

I hope not... Adolin should be the Kholin that isn't a Knight.

[Weaver of Lies]

I think that the contest may not happen. If T-Odium is not bound by the same rules as Rayse was, in the contract it did not specify the year that the contest would happen. I know this could be anticlimactic and may be a stretch, but I think it could work. There is a little bit of evidence that T-Odium is not bound by the spirit of the law, as he was able to destroy Hoid’s breaths, which Rayse couldn’t/didn’t do before.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Lightweaver2
Rewording

[alder24]

8 minutes ago, Lightweaver2 said:

I think that the contest may not happen. If T-Odium is not bound by the same rules as Rayse was, in the contract it did not specify the year that the contest would happen. I know this could be anticlimactic and may be a stretch, but I think it could work. There is a little bit of evidence that T-Odium is not bound by the spirit of the law, as he was able to destroy Hoid’s breaths, which Rayse couldn’t/didn’t do before.

They are bound in the same way, both Rayse and Taravangian. It's all about interpretation, how they interpret the rules - Taravangian is much more cunning and plotting, looking for loopholes, that's why he can interpret rules differently than Rayse, and be "bound" by them differently. Perception matters, RoW ch 116:

Quote

“Wit says the enemy can’t violate our agreement, and isn’t likely to try to misinterpret it—not intentionally. In fact, Wit seems to think the victory is already ours, but he got what he wanted. Odium will remain trapped either way. I’m worried though. There’s more I’m missing; I’m sure of it. At the very least, I think I left Odium too much room to continue fighting in the coming ten days.”

[Weaver of Lies]

Ok, thanks for the clarification.

[Letryx13]

To your original point, about Odium forcing Dalinar to free him, it almost certainly wouldn't work. The reason why Dalinar can free Odium is because he represents Honor.  Odium specifically states that what's keeping him bound is Honor's restrictions (likely an oath made from Odium to Honor), and Dalinar can ease them, as he represents Honor. But if Dalinar belonged to Odium, which if will if he loses the contest, then he won't represent Honor anymore.  So Dalinar wouldn't be able to free Odium anymore.

[Jn819]

On 5/7/2023 at 8:08 AM, bmcclure7 said:

Why would el be made champion, that gains odium no advantage?

Perhaps not, but the foreshadowing seemed to hint it. Maybe that's so the expectation can be subverted and he'll just be a general or something.

[Jn819]

On 5/7/2023 at 11:17 AM, Argenti said:

I hope not... Adolin should be the Kholin that isn't a Knight.

I disagree. Part of his character is that he suddenly feels inferior around all these knights while not being one himself. Maybe getting the option to be one and rejecting it would be enough for him to overcome that insecurity, so maybe he could revive Maya but not accept knighthood because he doesn't want to risk hurting her again. IDK tho.

[Jn819]

22 hours ago, Lightweaver2 said:

I think that the contest may not happen. If T-Odium is not bound by the same rules as Rayse was, in the contract it did not specify the year that the contest would happen. I know this could be anticlimactic and may be a stretch, but I think it could work. There is a little bit of evidence that T-Odium is not bound by the spirit of the law, as he was able to destroy Hoid’s breaths, which Rayse couldn’t/didn’t do before.

I feel like that was more something that Rayse either didn't have a reason to do or didn't figure out. Plus, Hoid was very careful to hide from Rayse; the only time he encountered Odium in recent eras was after Taravangian had Ascended. But yeah, Taravangian seems to have already figured out some loopholes and will certainly be looking for more.

[Jn819]

22 hours ago, alder24 said:

They are bound in the same way, both Rayse and Taravangian. It's all about interpretation, how they interpret the rules - Taravangian is much more cunning and plotting, looking for loopholes, that's why he can interpret rules differently than Rayse, and be "bound" by them differently. Perception matters, RoW ch 116:

Yeah exactly

[Jn819]

19 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

To your original point, about Odium forcing Dalinar to free him, it almost certainly wouldn't work. The reason why Dalinar can free Odium is because he represents Honor.  Odium specifically states that what's keeping him bound is Honor's restrictions (likely an oath made from Odium to Honor), and Dalinar can ease them, as he represents Honor. But if Dalinar belonged to Odium, which if will if he loses the contest, then he won't represent Honor anymore.  So Dalinar wouldn't be able to free Odium anymore.

Yeah, more likely Odium will try to manipulate the contest such that Dalinar will violate the terms. Or maybe he'll make Dalinar an offer he can't refuse. Obviously Dalinar doesn't feel his own death, but say Odium manages to turn Adolin and/or Renarin and makes one of them his champion. Dalinar might be willing to trade Odium his freedom in exchange for his son's life, though his honor would pressure him not to.

[alder24]

@Jn819 please avoid posting multiple times in a row. You can use the "+" button at the bottom of posts to quote multiple posts in your single response. Check this for more information:

Spoiler

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Hope that helps.

 

33 minutes ago, Jn819 said:

I disagree. Part of his character is that he suddenly feels inferior around all these knights while not being one himself. Maybe getting the option to be one and rejecting it would be enough for him to overcome that insecurity, so maybe he could revive Maya but not accept knighthood because he doesn't want to risk hurting her again. IDK tho.

I don't agree. I don't think he feels inferior to other Radiants. He isn't that kind of person. He is caring and happy for the well being of others, he helps them and shares his happiness with people around him. He isn't jealous. He is lost however, and doesn't know what he can do when Radiants with god-like powers can do it better. He wants to be useful but doesn't know how anymore. However this changed with his diplomatic expedition to Lasting Integrity, he got a new task, something that only he can do as a Highprince. And after Maya's revelation I think he found a purpose, something that no Radiant can do - helping Deadeye. He also doesn't want to be a Radiant, especially if that means abandoning Maya.

However there is a conflict between Dalinar and Adolin, conflict about Evi, Adolin can't forgive Dalinar for killing his mother. That's something Taravangian could try to exploit.

[Jn819]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

@Jn819 please avoid posting multiple times in a row. You can use the "+" button at the bottom of posts to quote multiple posts in your single response.

Thank you, I'm pretty new to the site (as you can see).

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

He is lost however, and doesn't know what he can do when Radiants with god-like powers can do it better. He wants to be useful but doesn't know how anymore.

That's what I was trying to get at.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

However this changed with his diplomatic expedition to Lasting Integrity, he got a new task, something that only he can do as a Highprince. And after Maya's revelation I think he found a purpose, something that no Radiant can do - helping Deadeye. He also doesn't want to be a Radiant, especially if that means abandoning Maya.

I think you have a point, but I'm not sure the insecurity is completely resolved. I think it's a lot like what he said about Kaladin during their first journey in Shadesmar actually: as long as there's a task for him to focus on, it's not an issue. But if he finished his task of helping Maya without becoming (her) Radiant in the process, I think he would largely be right back where he started. On the other hand, I think if helping Maya resulted in him becoming her Knight, he certainly wouldn't be too upset about it, and it might eliminate the last trace of that insecurity.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

However there is a conflict between Dalinar and Adolin, conflict about Evi, Adolin can't forgive Dalinar for killing his mother. That's something Taravangian could try to exploit.

Taravangian will definitely try to exploit that friction (if he knows about it and has the opportunity), yeah.

[Weaver of Lies]

On 5/19/2023 at 9:57 AM, alder24 said:

They are bound in the same way, both Rayse and Taravangian. It's all about interpretation, how they interpret the rules - Taravangian is much more cunning and plotting, looking for loopholes, that's why he can interpret rules differently than Rayse, and be "bound" by them differently. Perception matters

This is a much better way of putting it, thanks.

[bmcclure7]

On 5/20/2023 at 9:03 AM, Jn819 said:

Perhaps not, but the foreshadowing seemed to hint it. Maybe that's so the expectation can be subverted and he'll just be a general or something.

Really? Im confused? All the foreshadowing seem to indicate the opposite.  Odium said himself that the contract was bad and but he could see away out with future sight.

That seems to foreshadow some sort of twist not a odium victory. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by bmcclure7

[Jn819]

10 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Really? Im confused? All the foreshadowing seem to indicate the opposite.  Odium said himself that the contract was bad and but he could see away out with future sight.

That seems to foreshadow some sort of twist not a odium victory. 

I was not saying anything about foreshadowing an Odium victory. I was saying that the epigraphs indicated that the Fused named El, formerly known as Vyre before that title was given to Moash, expected to be Odium's champion. That's assuming the contest of champions happens at all and T-Odium doesn't manage to recruit someone that Dalinar will be hesitant to kill, like Adolin.

[alder24]

8 minutes ago, Jn819 said:

I was not saying anything about foreshadowing an Odium victory. I was saying that the epigraphs indicated that the Fused named El, formerly known as Vyre before that title was given to Moash, expected to be Odium's champion. That's assuming the contest of champions happens at all and T-Odium doesn't manage to recruit someone that Dalinar will be hesitant to kill, like Adolin.

I don't see anything in RoW epigraphs foreshadowing El as Odium's champion. I see it more plausible (but don't believe this would be the case as there are better candidates) that Moash will face Dalinar and Elhokar's son, Gavinor, will jump into the arena to kill his father's killer, possibly influenced by Unmade. There is nothing in those epigraphs written by El indicading he will be the champion, I see no foreshadowing here.

[Jn819]

13 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't see anything in RoW epigraphs foreshadowing El as Odium's champion. I see it more plausible (but don't believe this would be the case as there are better candidates) that Moash will face Dalinar and Elhokar's son, Gavinor, will jump into the arena to kill his father's killer, possibly influenced by Unmade. There is nothing in those epigraphs written by El indicading he will be the champion, I see no foreshadowing here.

Moash seemed most likely to me too-until he went blind and Taravangian replaced Rayse. El is presumably very similar in personality and purpose, given that his title was given to Moash. He's important enough that he wrote the epigraphs for a whole Part, and not just any Part, but the last Part before the book that concludes Cycle One. He's who tests anti-Voidlight on Lezian. Maybe I'm wrong and the way he's looking forward to "serving you, newest Odium" is only as a leader of troops, as he says he would "march proudly at the head of a human legion." But he seems like the best candidate (of those who are definitely on Odium's side) to me.

Edit: just realized you might have meant better candidates than Moash when I first read it as better candidates for Honor's champion than Dalinar himself. Which candidates for each side do you think are best? Whom did I miss?

Edited May 22, 2023 by Jn819

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Jn819 said:

Moash seemed most likely to me too-until he went blind and Taravangian replaced Rayse. El is presumably very similar in personality and purpose, given that his title was given to Moash. He's important enough that he wrote the epigraphs for a whole Part, and not just any Part, but the last Part before the book that concludes Cycle One. He's who tests anti-Voidlight on Lezian. Maybe I'm wrong and the way he's looking forward to "serving you, newest Odium" is only as a leader of troops, as he says he would "march proudly at the head of a human legion." But he seems like the best candidate (of those who are definitely on Odium's side) to me.

Except for El being once Vyre, there is almost no connection between him and Odium's champion. Him writing a poem for the last section of the book is just a dramatic way of revealing to us the change of Odium's Vessel (which I loved when I first read it, such a genius way of keeping you in tension and confusion). Anti-Voidlight was already tested by Raboniel and Navani, nothing new here. As for the foreshadowings of Odium's champion, we should be looking at clues way back to WoK, not the last 19 chapters (not even a multiple of 9) of the most recent book. He can be the champion, I just don't see any foreshadowing for it.

1 hour ago, Jn819 said:

Edit: just realized you might have meant better candidates than Moash when I first read it as better candidates for Honor's champion than Dalinar himself. Which candidates for each side do you think are best? Whom did I miss?

Tbf I'm not focusing on candidats that much. I'm much more interested in this loophole and the consequences of the Contest of Champions. I wrote about it in another thread about loophole, here if you're interested. El just doesn't fit my theory

 

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, Jn819 said:

I was not saying anything about foreshadowing an Odium victory. I was saying that the epigraphs indicated that the Fused named El, formerly known as Vyre before that title was given to Moash, expected to be Odium's champion. That's assuming the contest of champions happens at all and T-Odium doesn't manage to recruit someone that Dalinar will be hesitant to kill, like Adolin.

Ok I got ya,  I can sort of see that. El  Does talk about ruling to humans. Don't see though how having him the champion helps odium. But then this probably a lot we don't understand about him ( Aside from his name, And a little bit of his thought process and personality we saw in the epigraphs,  We know next nothing).  So perhaps it will make sense as we learn more information about him. 

 

Honestly this makes me want to go over the Epigraphs again.